keeping balance
susan
hi,
i'm so far behind on messages but i wanted to make a comment. when i
was in college i minored in education. one classes i took was called
pyschopedigogics (sp) and i think the basis of this philosophy is
pertinent to unschooling. the core concept is one of 'bringing [a
child] to adulthood' and it is seen that to do this one must balance 3
components: trust, understanding and authority. so if a problem arises
it is because one (or more) of these is being neglected or abused.
i've used this as a foundation, a kind of philosophical safety net,
particularly for those bad days when all that 'training' and 'role
modeling' rears it ugly little head threatening our happy home:)
rene', who is 4, is very independent, he backs down to no one (at park
days he has butted heads with boys more than twice his age and twice
his size (who are bullying him and others) - he has a keen sense of
injustice and will fight anyone's battles) in fact arguing happens to be
one of his favorite sports and will always provide him with a good
laugh:) that's just the kind of person he is, a leader type with a
strong independent mind who wants his voice to be heard- which i both
like and drives me crazy:) he will accept nothing on face value which
as an adult will serve him well, but as a parent to him i must back up
everything i say and do- so i fall back on the importance of
understanding him as being paramount instead of wanting him to 'just be
obedient'.
when i make understanding him vital, he seems to relax more and
naturally trust me. i believe it's because of this trust that he is
able to respect my authority on issues that our outside his control
(i.e. you must brush your teeth or don't throw the ball at the windows
or in the house for that matter <g>). i truly believe the more i make
honest efforts to understand him, the more he trusts me, the more he
respects my authority. i also believe this will pave the way for a ease
of transition for him to accept more and more authority over his own
life creating an environment where what was once a dynamic between
parent and child will then be fully internalized i.e. rene' will embody
this balance of trust understanding and authority within himself,
giving him the skills to be an independent adult.
i would be curious what other think about this idea of balancing these 3
components. it seems to work for rene' but would it work for someone of
a different personality? i'm wondering just how broad a scope this
philosophy might cover.
just some thoughts
susan
austin,tx
i'm so far behind on messages but i wanted to make a comment. when i
was in college i minored in education. one classes i took was called
pyschopedigogics (sp) and i think the basis of this philosophy is
pertinent to unschooling. the core concept is one of 'bringing [a
child] to adulthood' and it is seen that to do this one must balance 3
components: trust, understanding and authority. so if a problem arises
it is because one (or more) of these is being neglected or abused.
i've used this as a foundation, a kind of philosophical safety net,
particularly for those bad days when all that 'training' and 'role
modeling' rears it ugly little head threatening our happy home:)
rene', who is 4, is very independent, he backs down to no one (at park
days he has butted heads with boys more than twice his age and twice
his size (who are bullying him and others) - he has a keen sense of
injustice and will fight anyone's battles) in fact arguing happens to be
one of his favorite sports and will always provide him with a good
laugh:) that's just the kind of person he is, a leader type with a
strong independent mind who wants his voice to be heard- which i both
like and drives me crazy:) he will accept nothing on face value which
as an adult will serve him well, but as a parent to him i must back up
everything i say and do- so i fall back on the importance of
understanding him as being paramount instead of wanting him to 'just be
obedient'.
when i make understanding him vital, he seems to relax more and
naturally trust me. i believe it's because of this trust that he is
able to respect my authority on issues that our outside his control
(i.e. you must brush your teeth or don't throw the ball at the windows
or in the house for that matter <g>). i truly believe the more i make
honest efforts to understand him, the more he trusts me, the more he
respects my authority. i also believe this will pave the way for a ease
of transition for him to accept more and more authority over his own
life creating an environment where what was once a dynamic between
parent and child will then be fully internalized i.e. rene' will embody
this balance of trust understanding and authority within himself,
giving him the skills to be an independent adult.
i would be curious what other think about this idea of balancing these 3
components. it seems to work for rene' but would it work for someone of
a different personality? i'm wondering just how broad a scope this
philosophy might cover.
just some thoughts
susan
austin,tx
susan
hi kim,
i've had many a day where i end up feeling this way:) it's nice to know one is
not alone <g>
susan
austin,tx
i've had many a day where i end up feeling this way:) it's nice to know one is
not alone <g>
susan
austin,tx
>
> Of course then I always feel like such a dope!
> KIM
> ***runs with scissors***
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/22/00 10:34:58 AM Central Standard Time,
fxfireob@... writes:
<< one must balance 3
components: trust, understanding and authority. >>
<>
Susan,
I agree with you. I think that's one of our hardest jobs as parents and
unschoolers. I have found, time after time, that the more I relax and really
listen to my boys, the more they will listen to me, and the more motivated
they will be. It's as if they feel free to do more if they feel that I trust
them. It's a hard lesson for me to learn, especially on days when they just
want to vegetate. My years of public education creep up on me then and push
my panic button. I find myself scheming to get them interested and busy with
something. sigh... When will I learn? Balance is crucial. They have to
feel that I trust them, but at the same time they need the security of
knowing that I am the authority. When they constantly test me and push the
limits, it usually means that I've been overbearing and need to relax a bit.
Of course then I always feel like such a dope!
KIM
***runs with scissors***
fxfireob@... writes:
<< one must balance 3
components: trust, understanding and authority. >>
<>
Susan,
I agree with you. I think that's one of our hardest jobs as parents and
unschoolers. I have found, time after time, that the more I relax and really
listen to my boys, the more they will listen to me, and the more motivated
they will be. It's as if they feel free to do more if they feel that I trust
them. It's a hard lesson for me to learn, especially on days when they just
want to vegetate. My years of public education creep up on me then and push
my panic button. I find myself scheming to get them interested and busy with
something. sigh... When will I learn? Balance is crucial. They have to
feel that I trust them, but at the same time they need the security of
knowing that I am the authority. When they constantly test me and push the
limits, it usually means that I've been overbearing and need to relax a bit.
Of course then I always feel like such a dope!
KIM
***runs with scissors***
susan
hi,
for me this does get a bit gray. i do agree with candice that preventing
unnecessary pain and damage is a big motivation for certain demands. my
experience is that even though i'm a much more demanding person than my dh,
who overall is a pretty 'go with the flow' kind of guy, i tend to be a bit
less demanding in terms of his rene's behavior and my hd is a bit more
impatient with the 'bad behavior' issues and they fight a lot more. they
have a lot more power struggles, than rene' and i do.
i found this very interesting because even though i'm less demanding
overall when i do 'lay down the law', particularly in terms of personally
boundaries and things i feel are really important like areas of safety,
rene' responds much better to me than his dad. but i'm also the one who
really listens to him and finds out why he wants or does something. for
example rene' really wants a gameboy color and without any discussion dh
says: 'no way', which sparked a royal fit from rene'. i stepped in, got
him to calm down and ask him why he wanted one. we discuss the cost of the
game itself plus all the cartridges, we check out, online, all the
different machines available (sega, sony etc.) the cost each one and what
games are played on which machines. then i told him what my concerns are
about buying him one etc. we have yet to buy one though he still wants one
and periodically asks (or should i say 'reminds' us) but he also feels
heard and his position is respected so no more fits and its been about 6
months. now this didn't happen in a day it took a good month of talking
and frustrating visits to park day, where the older kids had them and
didn't share, but after that his 'obsession' has progressively lessened.
another example i have which has to do with math: rene' happens to love it
(mind you he is only 4) and we have a math cd-rom by dk 'counting and
sorting'. anyway he wanted to get mega math blaster and i said sure when
you finish all the levels of the other cd. he agreed and sat down and
within an hour he hated math, was angry and frustrated and i realized in a
moment i had destroyed his natural love for math and turned what use to be
fun into 'work'. so we bought him the other cd. he now plays both and
loves math again. i'm not suggestion to buy anything or give in to every
demand but i just think there is a way to honor both you and your values
without shutting your kids desires out. like what kim said about trusting
in your kids as having some reason for doing what they're doing even if it
appears to us as a 'waste of time'.
i think love of learning and curiosity are what should be fostered not
particular skills. i know that skills are or can be useful but math is so
versatile can't you set up a situation to have your kids learn in a context
they find interesting. i'm certainly not the one to give any advise
because i've not had to cross that bridge, at least from the parents
perspective:) but i have learned when you take the fun out and remove the
free will, you deny the kids the wonderful opportunity of discovery as well
as the joy of cooperation and choice. i don't know if this is the kind of
thing you're talking about but if it is there is a book i would recommend
giving the love that heals by harville hendrix & helen hunt. a central
theme in this book is validation something i thing is very important to
everyone and especially our kids. it's well worth the read
susan
austin,tx
Brown wrote:
for me this does get a bit gray. i do agree with candice that preventing
unnecessary pain and damage is a big motivation for certain demands. my
experience is that even though i'm a much more demanding person than my dh,
who overall is a pretty 'go with the flow' kind of guy, i tend to be a bit
less demanding in terms of his rene's behavior and my hd is a bit more
impatient with the 'bad behavior' issues and they fight a lot more. they
have a lot more power struggles, than rene' and i do.
i found this very interesting because even though i'm less demanding
overall when i do 'lay down the law', particularly in terms of personally
boundaries and things i feel are really important like areas of safety,
rene' responds much better to me than his dad. but i'm also the one who
really listens to him and finds out why he wants or does something. for
example rene' really wants a gameboy color and without any discussion dh
says: 'no way', which sparked a royal fit from rene'. i stepped in, got
him to calm down and ask him why he wanted one. we discuss the cost of the
game itself plus all the cartridges, we check out, online, all the
different machines available (sega, sony etc.) the cost each one and what
games are played on which machines. then i told him what my concerns are
about buying him one etc. we have yet to buy one though he still wants one
and periodically asks (or should i say 'reminds' us) but he also feels
heard and his position is respected so no more fits and its been about 6
months. now this didn't happen in a day it took a good month of talking
and frustrating visits to park day, where the older kids had them and
didn't share, but after that his 'obsession' has progressively lessened.
another example i have which has to do with math: rene' happens to love it
(mind you he is only 4) and we have a math cd-rom by dk 'counting and
sorting'. anyway he wanted to get mega math blaster and i said sure when
you finish all the levels of the other cd. he agreed and sat down and
within an hour he hated math, was angry and frustrated and i realized in a
moment i had destroyed his natural love for math and turned what use to be
fun into 'work'. so we bought him the other cd. he now plays both and
loves math again. i'm not suggestion to buy anything or give in to every
demand but i just think there is a way to honor both you and your values
without shutting your kids desires out. like what kim said about trusting
in your kids as having some reason for doing what they're doing even if it
appears to us as a 'waste of time'.
i think love of learning and curiosity are what should be fostered not
particular skills. i know that skills are or can be useful but math is so
versatile can't you set up a situation to have your kids learn in a context
they find interesting. i'm certainly not the one to give any advise
because i've not had to cross that bridge, at least from the parents
perspective:) but i have learned when you take the fun out and remove the
free will, you deny the kids the wonderful opportunity of discovery as well
as the joy of cooperation and choice. i don't know if this is the kind of
thing you're talking about but if it is there is a book i would recommend
giving the love that heals by harville hendrix & helen hunt. a central
theme in this book is validation something i thing is very important to
everyone and especially our kids. it's well worth the read
susan
austin,tx
Brown wrote:
> From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
>
> Susan made me think about my own attitudes. Why do I feel that it's okay
> to say:
>
> > you must brush your teeth or don't throw the ball at the windows or
> > in the house for that matter <g>
>
> but then get the guilts when I ask them to read? Why is it okay to
> insist they learn about balls breaking windows from me, rather than
> letting them learn from experience, but not to insist that they learn
> their math facts?
>
> Carol
> NZ
Brown
Susan made me think about my own attitudes. Why do I feel that it's okay
to say:
insist they learn about balls breaking windows from me, rather than
letting them learn from experience, but not to insist that they learn
their math facts?
Carol
NZ
to say:
> you must brush your teeth or don't throw the ball at the windows orbut then get the guilts when I ask them to read? Why is it okay to
> in the house for that matter <g>
insist they learn about balls breaking windows from me, rather than
letting them learn from experience, but not to insist that they learn
their math facts?
Carol
NZ
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/22/00 11:09:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< Why is it okay to
insist they learn about balls breaking windows from me, rather than
letting them learn from experience, but not to insist that they learn
their math facts?
to something or someone. Just like I don't let them learn about hot stoves by
touching one, or how hard black ink is to paint over by writing on my walls.
I don't think unschooling means I have to abdicate all authority or give up
on trying to impart some of the benefit of my own experience. I would let
them get a mentor to learn a skill. I consider myself to be a mentor for life
skills - a mentor who, along with dh, has the ultimate authority in our
house. I won't insist on flashcards, but I will expect that somehow, at some
point, they will learn their math facts. I just try to help them make it
relevant and enjoyable. Some lessons are too immediate for me to take that
tact.
candice
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< Why is it okay to
insist they learn about balls breaking windows from me, rather than
letting them learn from experience, but not to insist that they learn
their math facts?
>>I don't want them learning lessons that will be costly or cause real damage
to something or someone. Just like I don't let them learn about hot stoves by
touching one, or how hard black ink is to paint over by writing on my walls.
I don't think unschooling means I have to abdicate all authority or give up
on trying to impart some of the benefit of my own experience. I would let
them get a mentor to learn a skill. I consider myself to be a mentor for life
skills - a mentor who, along with dh, has the ultimate authority in our
house. I won't insist on flashcards, but I will expect that somehow, at some
point, they will learn their math facts. I just try to help them make it
relevant and enjoyable. Some lessons are too immediate for me to take that
tact.
candice
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/22/00 3:15:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
fxfireob@... writes:
<< but i'm also the one who
really listens to him and finds out why he wants or does something. >>
I think this is really key, but dh thinks it's mostly optional. He's still
very much aligned with "It was good enough for me." and "Because I say so." I
think these are valid arguements at times, but only rarely. I do spend a lot
of time trying to understand the kids, especially since they are a part of a
patchwork family and have to deal with different lifestyles in different
homes.
<<he agreed and sat down and
within an hour he hated math, was angry and frustrated and i realized in a
moment i had destroyed his natural love for math and turned what use to be
fun into 'work'. so we bought him the other cd. he now plays both >>
I have done this SO many times.Instead of letting dd jump into something new
and exciting I've used the "Sure, but first do this" line and robbed it of
all the excitement. Usually it's been in math as well. Most of the time I've
been able to back track and take the pressure off, but not always.
But hey, as my mother recently reminded me, I'm not perfect.
candice
fxfireob@... writes:
<< but i'm also the one who
really listens to him and finds out why he wants or does something. >>
I think this is really key, but dh thinks it's mostly optional. He's still
very much aligned with "It was good enough for me." and "Because I say so." I
think these are valid arguements at times, but only rarely. I do spend a lot
of time trying to understand the kids, especially since they are a part of a
patchwork family and have to deal with different lifestyles in different
homes.
<<he agreed and sat down and
within an hour he hated math, was angry and frustrated and i realized in a
moment i had destroyed his natural love for math and turned what use to be
fun into 'work'. so we bought him the other cd. he now plays both >>
I have done this SO many times.Instead of letting dd jump into something new
and exciting I've used the "Sure, but first do this" line and robbed it of
all the excitement. Usually it's been in math as well. Most of the time I've
been able to back track and take the pressure off, but not always.
But hey, as my mother recently reminded me, I'm not perfect.
candice