[email protected]

"How dare they cram
these squiggles and rules into my head without ever telling me what I
was supposed to be doing! I could cry."

I LOVED your whole post Sorcha! I can totally relate.
I had a math epiphany lately about cubic yards. I just couldn't get how there
were 27 cubes in a Square yard!! I kept saying "but it's three across and
three down, HOW can that equal 27" completely not able to "see" the depth of
it.
My dh drew a picture and explained it to me.
AHA!! Maybe if they'd slowed down and put it all into REAL terms, I wouldn't
have struggled so badly in school and have all these hang ups now.
Sheesh.

Ren
"They dined on mince, and slices of quince, Which they ate with a runcible
spoon;
And hand in hand, on the edge of the sand, they danced by the light of the
moon."
--The Owl and the Pussycat
Edward Lear

[email protected]

In a message dated 25/04/2003 14:09:27 Pacific Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:


> AHA!! Maybe if they'd slowed down and put it all into REAL terms, I wouldn't
>
> have struggled so badly in school and have all these hang ups now.
> Sheesh.
>
>

Ok, the running joke from my dh is that I am like Barbie, "I like english,
but math is sure hard". He makes fun of me all the time and I do struggle
with numbers and all things math. I did not struggle with this until I hit 15
years old and discovered men, pot and LSD, I always thought I had fried my
brain cells and wrote if off to that, but what you people are describing is
making sense to me. I think I am traumatized about math, as I adored it as a
younger kid. What was the title of that book that Sorcha was describing
please, as I have deleted that post.
Nancy, having a flashback in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sorcha_aisling

The book is Mathematical Sorcery: Revealing the Secrets of Numbers
and the author is Calvin C. Clawson. I'm traumatized about math too,
but I'm trying to get over it. I got a Kindergarten math workbook
out of the library a few months ago and started to have a panic
attack just looking at all the problems. It's not the difficulty of
the problems that got me, just the fact that it was page after page
of them. Luckily my son is not math-traumatized. He likes to play
with his "letters and numbers" and doesn't consider one more fun than
the other.

I emailed my mom about this and I got an email from her saying that
what I should do is put my kids in public school, go to graduate
school for a masters in education, become a teacher, and reform
education from the inside out. Gag, gag, wretch. I told her that
homeschooling was on the cutting edge of education reform, but, as is
the pattern every single time I mention homeschooling, her response
was to change the subject entirely.

Sorcha

Betsy

**I emailed my mom about this and I got an email from her saying that
what I should do is put my kids in public school, go to graduate
school for a masters in education, become a teacher, and reform
education from the inside out. Gag, gag, wretch.**

Yick! (And my husband is a teacher. But he can't change the system.)

I think your mom should get very rich, leave all her money to you, and
then you can be an influential political donor, and maybe influence the
system that way.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/03 5:47:00 AM, sorcha-aisling@... writes:

<< go to graduate

school for a masters in education, become a teacher, and reform

education from the inside out. >>

OH yeah.

Ask her to empty the ocean. Not with a thimble. Not with a bucket. Tell
her to go ahead and use the most powerful pumping equipment known to man!

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/03 12:54:01 AM, LOWRIEK@... writes:

<< I do struggle
with numbers and all things math. I did not struggle with this until I hit 15
years old and discovered men, pot and LSD >>

For me personally it wasn't the drugs'n'guys, it was the being 15.
Partly, I was no longer content to accept bullshit reasons for why I should
do Algebra II. I wanted REAL, sensible reasons.
And partly, something in my brain had rearranged itself and talk of numbers
sounded less comphrehensible than it had before then.
Seriously.

People during the 1970's gave all kinds of conditioning and
expectations-of-females reasons for it, but I felt the big door come down in
my brain, where I had been "a good math student" before then and suddenly it
was gibberish. I didn't take LSD for another two years, so scratch that off
your list, Nancy. <g>

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<Ok, the running joke from my dh is that I am like Barbie, "I like
english,
but math is sure hard".>>



Ah, but Barbie must be reasonably adept at math and sciences. Her many
careers include Pediatrician, Veterinarian and Astronaut.

In fact I am convinced that Barbie is the ultimate unschooler/life
learner. Not only has she investigated every career under the sun, she
still finds time to be involved in a wide variety of sports, the arts,
charity work AND to hang out and play with her younger sisters. Of
course her parents seem a little absent.

Robyn Coburn ;)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bronwen

>
> For me personally it wasn't the drugs'n'guys, it was the being 15.
> Partly, I was no longer content to accept bullshit reasons for why I
should
> do Algebra II. I wanted REAL, sensible reasons.
> And partly, something in my brain had rearranged itself and talk of
numbers
> sounded less comphrehensible than it had before then.
> Seriously.
>

*The Primal Teen: What the New Discoveries About the Teenage Brain Tell Us
About Our Kids*, by Barbara Strauch.

Evidentally, this book provides a great deal of
evidence for growth and new abilities in the brains of teenagers, and
specifically for a growth spurt at about 15.

I have it on request at the library.

AND THen- from a friend on another list:

I just heard Joseph Chilton Pearce give a talk, and he was saying that the
growth spurt at 15 is in the prefrontal area of the brain (the newest part
of the brain, which was considered unused and not relevant only a few years
ago.) I believe he was saying that this is the part of the brain that
communicates with the heart (whose major function is really neurological --
60-65% of the heart cells are neurons.) So potentially, the major
development from 15-21 is for universal or heart connections. Certainly
looking at the world from a different perspective than most of us do. The
other key to developing our potential is that we need living models, so the
body can entrain with someone who is actually using or experiencing the
parts of the brain/heart which are being developed in the child/young adult.

There is also another major growth spurt at 21, which he suggests is where
we are evolutionarily designed to go... but don't make it because of the
lack of entrainment within our cultures. We never really get to the point
where we are using our prefrontal and our heart minds, so who knows what
would be possible!

So it's no wonder that teenagers are crazy. They are biologically designed
to experience something really BIG -- universal connections with their
minds and their hearts. And what do they experience instead? No wonder
they feel rage.

ciao
--bc--

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/03 5:04:45 PM, felesina@... writes:

<< So it's no wonder that teenagers are crazy. They are biologically designed

to experience something really BIG -- universal connections with their

minds and their hearts. And what do they experience instead? >>

Algebra II.
<g>

I think there's another kind of brain-spurt of some sort around 30/32.
People can understand philosophy. I don't mean read about philosophers and
repeat back what their major contributions to thought were. I mean they
become philosophical themselves (if they want) and can understand things at a
level which encompasses a depth of space and time.

People under 30 get really irate when I say that. I just wait patiently for
them to turn 32 and say "Oh; sorry; I know now what you meant."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/2003 8:41:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> I think there's another kind of brain-spurt of some sort around 30/32.
> People can understand philosophy.

Possibly the DEschooling that kicks in by then? Or is that "universal"? Do
unschooled people wax philosophical sooner than schooled ones? Because they
don't HAVE to deschool?

Your hypothesis?

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

MARK and JULIE SOLICH

> I think there's another kind of brain-spurt of some sort around 30/32.
> People can understand philosophy. I don't mean read about philosophers
and
> repeat back what their major contributions to thought were. I mean they
> become philosophical themselves (if they want) and can understand things
at a
> level which encompasses a depth of space and time.
>
> People under 30 get really irate when I say that. I just wait patiently
for
> them to turn 32 and say "Oh; sorry; I know now what you meant."
>
> Sandra

Sandra is this something you've read about or is it just something you've
observed in people? I turned 32 last year and when I read this I thought
hey, that's me!
Interesting.

Julie


>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/03 6:46:06 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< Your hypothesis? >>

Brain spurt.

<g>

I didn't believe it until I got to the over-40 range and looked back and saw
one person after another come out of the choppy waters of confusion and into
some kind of calm around 30. Something changed. Maybe there's a
relationship to school, but some of them were drop outs and some professional
students. They cared about things they hadn't cared about before. They had
stopped caring about some things they had cared about earlier. It was like
seeing the clouds from a jet after all those years of just seeing them from
the ground or something.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/03 7:23:26 PM, mjsolich@... writes:

<< Sandra is this something you've read about or is it just something you've

observed in people? >>

Figured it out myself from having SCA students. In the Society for Creative
Anachronism, much of the teaching of squires and apprentices has to do with
philosophy. My husband has had several squires, I've had some students, and
if they're in their teens or 20's it's like trying to push a rope.

Sometimes people who have hung around us and been frustrated with
philosophical principals and said "That's just Stupid, though!" will go away
grumpy, but come back in their early 30's, saying "Could you tell me that
thing again, about integrity?" (or whatever)

I used to read zen stuff in my 20s and it was like trying to learn math at
15! But in my 30's the very same books made clear sense.

And (with emotion-free apologies to any to whom it applies, and I don't know
of any off hand) in unschooling discussions, often the most stridently d
efensive are among the youngest moms.

Maybe it's just easier to think "maybe so" instead of "NO DAMNED WAY" after
30, for a lot of reasons. I don't know why I think it is yet, but since I
got the idea maybe a dozen years ago, I've seen lots of evidence to support
it and nothing has caused me to amend the theory or the "gate age."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/2003 10:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Maybe it's just easier to think "maybe so" instead of "NO DAMNED WAY" after
> 30, for a lot of reasons. I don't know why I think it is yet, but since I
>
> got the idea maybe a dozen years ago, I've seen lots of evidence to support
>
> it and nothing has caused me to amend the theory or the "gate age."

Even with always unschooled adults?

...but how many do we know?

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sorcha_aisling

I don't know, Sandra. I'm twenty-seven and I've always been *very*
philosophical. I'd also like to think I "get" unschooling -- to my
knowledge I haven't been particularly defensive or bullheaded. Then
there's my mom. She's forty-seven and she seems to be missing the
part of her brain that understands the big picture. She's one of
those people who constantly complains, and if someone gives her
advice, she answers everything with, "Yeah, but..." I'll admit that
she's mellowed a little with age, but I think she was just so intense
when she was younger that she wore herself out. Maybe she missed the
brain spurt? Maybe if I'm already philosophical to some extent, I'll
become enlightened? Maybe I'll have the brain spurt and suddenly
realize that my mom was, all the time, an enlightened being and she
was frustrating me at every turn in order to bring me more quickly to
my own enlightenment.

Sorcha

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/03 8:47:56 PM, sorcha-aisling@... writes:

<< She's forty-seven and she seems to be missing the

part of her brain that understands the big picture. She's one of

those people who constantly complains, and if someone gives her

advice, she answers everything with, "Yeah, but..." >>

It doesn't happen to everyone.
Some people never get any inter- or intrapersonal stuff, ever.
That's okay.

I predict that when you're 32 you'll see the world differently. Nothing else
I can say!

Sandra

Robin Clevenger

From: "Bronwen" <felesina@...>
>So it's no wonder that teenagers are crazy. They are biologically designed
>to experience something really BIG -- universal connections with their
>minds and their hearts. And what do they experience instead? No wonder
>they feel rage.

I was talking to my mom about this the other day, how emotionally raw I felt
at that age. I remember sitting behind the couch (comfort spot) and playing
"Calypso" by John Denver over and over on the stereo and sobbing because it
touched some chord in my heart that I couldn't explain. Looks rather
pathetic in retrospect :-) but I do remember the intensity of emotion at
that age. It's part of what makes middle school so hellish for most kids.
Imagine that kind of exposed tenderness in the social hellhole of a typical
school.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 26/04/2003 13:53:07 Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> I didn't take LSD for another two years, so scratch that off
> your list, Nancy. <g>
>

Great, so where do I go from here, now that it is no longer a reason?<g>
The brain thing makes sense. I watched a show on the local knowledge network
taht discussed the brain dev. of teenagers, and it talked about the only time
in a human
's life that we go through as much brain development and change as when we
are infants, occurs during adolesence.I believe it, hence the talk of aliens
that take over the bodies of teens etc. , yet the kids I see with supportive
and communicative families seem to weather these changes well, I am hoping th
at is the key and will save my kids the heartaches I went through. Not that
they won't try stuff, just that I will be ;there for them to talk to if they
need me.
Nancy, attempting math in BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 26/04/2003 04:47:01 Pacific Daylight Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:


> The book is Mathematical Sorcery: Revealing the Secrets of Numbers
> and the author is Calvin C. Clawson. I'm traumatized about math too

Thank you Sorcha, I will try to find this, it sounds like it might help.i
must get my husband to stop making fun of me. O f course if i stopped
laughing at what he said, It might help.
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 26/04/2003 19:14:56 Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


>
> Maybe it's just easier to think "maybe so" instead of "NO DAMNED WAY" after
>
> 30, for a lot of reasons. I don't know why I think it is yet, but since I
>
> got the idea maybe a dozen years ago, I've seen lots of evidence to support
>
> it and nothing has caused me to amend the theory or the "gate age."
>

OH, so glad to read this. my neighbor is a sweet but difficult 25 year old
mom of a 2.5 year old and soon to birth again. I just smile kindly at her and
listen. I remember feeling the way she does about everything, and I know when
she is old and wrinkly like me, it will not be such a big deal.Glad that I
was not imagining all the differences.
Nancy In BC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

I used to play John Denver and sob my little heart out too. I was 18.
Something about those cries felt good despite the depth of my sorrow.
It's weird and hard to explain.

Angela


I remember sitting behind the couch (comfort spot) and playing
"Calypso" by John Denver over and over on the stereo and sobbing because
it
touched some chord in my heart that I couldn't explain.
Blue Skies!
-Robin-


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma2kids

>> Possibly the DEschooling that kicks in by then? Or is
that "universal"?>>

I think it might have to do with the fact that most people are
somewhat settled by then. Before that, all of your time and focus is
on getting your nest together; finding a job, finding a mate,
creating a home, squeezing out some babies. Once that's done, you
have some room to think about the bigger picture. Getting far away
from school has got to help as well.

>> Do unschooled people wax philosophical sooner than schooled ones?>>

Conor certainly does. He thinks and talks about things that I'm only
now beginning to ponder. He's 13, almost 14 and has shared with me
his theory of creation, the universe, reincarnation, higher levels of
human evolution, you name it. Having someone listen who takes him
seriously is probably different for him than most kids. He was born
kind of philosophical, though. It'll be interesting to see what he
comes up with when he's 30 or 40.

Life is good.
~Mary

zenmomma2kids

>>Then there's my mom. She's forty-seven and she seems to be missing
the part of her brain that understands the big picture.>>

Wow! Your mom is only 4 years older than I am. <g> I noticed that,
for me, 40 was a bigger philosophical/spiritual shift than 30 was.
Maybe mom is fighting it, putting up a wall. I've certainly known
people who do that.

>>Maybe if I'm already philosophical to some extent, I'll become
enlightened? >>

Why not? There's no magic to enlightenment.

>>Maybe I'll have the brain spurt and suddenly realize that my mom
was, all the time, an enlightened being and she was frustrating me at
every turn in order to bring me more quickly to my own
enlightenment.>>

My big enlightenment with my mom, was to truly understand her as a
whole person and not just "my mom." She is Who She Is and has had her
very own shit to deal with. We relate woman to woman now and I've
found that, at 81, she's become amazingly open to my ponderings. I
think the energy change between us has broken down many barriers.

Life is good.
~Mary

Tia Leschke

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...



> >>Then there's my mom. She's forty-seven and she seems to be missing
> the part of her brain that understands the big picture.>>
>
> Wow! Your mom is only 4 years older than I am. <g>

And 7 years younger than me!
<g>
Tia

Tammy

Same here .. actually I still have a day or two like that every couple
months. <g>
Our son (Denver) was named for John Denver. lol


Tammy
(unschoolers: 41, 34, 9, 8, 5, 2)
-------Original Message-------

I used to play John Denver and sob my little heart out too. I was 18.
Something about those cries felt good despite the depth of my sorrow.
It's weird and hard to explain.

Angela


I remember sitting behind the couch (comfort spot) and playing
"Calypso" by John Denver over and over on the stereo and sobbing because
it
touched some chord in my heart that I couldn't explain.
Blue Skies!
-Robin-




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/27/03 9:33:21 AM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< I think it might have to do with the fact that most people are

somewhat settled by then. Before that, all of your time and focus is

on getting your nest together; finding a job, finding a mate,

creating a home, squeezing out some babies. Once that's done, you

have some room to think about the bigger picture. >>

Most of my "subjects" were childless. Keith and I didn't have kids until we
were 30+ (he was 30 at Kirby-day; I had just turned 33).

<<Conor certainly does. He thinks and talks about things that I'm only

now beginning to ponder. He's 13, almost 14 and has shared with me

his theory of creation, the universe, reincarnation, higher levels of

human evolution, you name it. Having someone listen who takes him

seriously is probably different for him than most kids. He was born

kind of philosophical, though. It'll be interesting to see what he

comes up with when he's 30 or 40.>>

Same, altogether, Holly.

It helps that she gets answers to her questions and has never once yet been
told "You don't need to know that yet" or "that won't be on the test."

Still, I expect that whatever she knows and understands will go through some
metamorphosis when she's 15, and when she moves out on her own, and yet again
when she's 30ish.

Sandra

Betsy

**I think it might have to do with the fact that most people are
somewhat settled by then. Before that, all of your time and focus is
on getting your nest together; finding a job, finding a mate,
creating a home, squeezing out some babies. Once that's done, you
have some room to think about the bigger picture. Getting far away
from school has got to help as well.**

Oh, yeah. Barbara Sher, who does some motivational shows on PBS about
getting what you want, has a recent book about how much energy and
clarity you have in your life after biological forces stop dragging you
around by your, um, "parts". I think she thinks it kicks in after
forty, though.

Betsy

PS I can't remember the title.

coyote's corner

Your mom is 6 years YOUNGER than i am.

Where's my heating pad??
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: zenmomma2kids
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 12:04 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Brain spurts, was math


>>Then there's my mom. She's forty-seven and she seems to be missing
the part of her brain that understands the big picture.>>

Wow! Your mom is only 4 years older than I am. <g> I noticed that,
for me, 40 was a bigger philosophical/spiritual shift than 30 was.
Maybe mom is fighting it, putting up a wall. I've certainly known
people who do that.

>>Maybe if I'm already philosophical to some extent, I'll become
enlightened? >>

Why not? There's no magic to enlightenment.

>>Maybe I'll have the brain spurt and suddenly realize that my mom
was, all the time, an enlightened being and she was frustrating me at
every turn in order to bring me more quickly to my own
enlightenment.>>

My big enlightenment with my mom, was to truly understand her as a
whole person and not just "my mom." She is Who She Is and has had her
very own shit to deal with. We relate woman to woman now and I've
found that, at 81, she's become amazingly open to my ponderings. I
think the energy change between us has broken down many barriers.

Life is good.
~Mary



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma2kids

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>> Most of my "subjects" were childless. Keith and I didn't have
kids until we were 30+ (he was 30 at Kirby-day; I had just turned
33).>>

Come to think of it, I was almost 30 when I had Conor. So maybe
forget the squeezing out the babies part. <g> But by that point I did
have a husband and a home and had been out of school and working for
9 years. So I had been doing all that life stuff.

I guess, in retrospect, I just always assumed it was having a baby
that produced a change in my outlook. Maybe it was the brain spurt.
Although I do know Jon and I had been considering big life changes
even before we had kids. We were planning our move out west when I
found out I was pregnant.

>> Still, I expect that whatever she knows and understands will go
through some metamorphosis when she's 15, and when she moves out on
her own, and yet again when she's 30ish.>>

Absolutely. I've seen a huge development in Conor this past year, 13-
14. I'll keep my eye on him again at 15. ;-)

I'm not disagreeing with the brain spurt idea, just pondering on some
of the reasons or co-exisiting circumstances.

Life is good.
~Mary

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/27/03 2:13:44 PM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< I'm not disagreeing with the brain spurt idea, just pondering on some

of the reasons or co-exisiting circumstances. >>

Keith and I were talking about this, about whether it might not be true of
unschooled kids when they turn 30 (and I'm dead and no longer paying
attention to my little theory <g>). We couldn't see similarities in the
others we were thinking of, though, as to how long they'd had to recover from
school or their state of "settledness."

Sandra