vze1orbq

> We are registered with her in an unschooling program called wondertree.
Together we record 25 hours of her work a week..

This sounds a bit like the Santa Fe Home Study Program. Can you share your
reasons for joining, tell us about the expense, how long you've been with
Wondertree, what support you've received, and how you've found the
enrollment helpful to you? Thanks, Annette

Tim and Maureen

----- Original Message -----
From: vze1orbq
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:34 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Wondertree


> We are registered with her in an unschooling program called wondertree.
Together we record 25 hours of her work a week..

This sounds a bit like the Santa Fe Home Study Program. Can you share your
reasons for joining, tell us about the expense, how long you've been with
Wondertree, what support you've received, and how you've found the
enrollment helpful to you? Thanks, Annette

We joined for two reasons. One for the support provided for true unschooling. It is an almost unheard of concept and two for the money. They get money from the government and they give it back to us.The program toally allows us to unschool.No extra pressures, meetings with teachers etc..We have only just joined three weeeks ago as we were on the waiting list. I signed up with the interest in having some credibility to my unschooling. A program like this would relax other peoples worries some (family). However this was before I jpoined on this list. Since then I have truly become more sure of my life and not needing justification for it. The support has been trmendous. Child led learning is truly encouraged and understood. My first experience with that at a beurocratic level. Our support person calls and chats with Brianna with tremendous respect and regard.There are numerous spots on the site to talk with others and participate in other activities.Brianna has not been interested and that so far has been okay.
Maureen



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca DeLong

I'm not sure how to deal with this, and I'm hoping that someone may have experienced this and has some words of wisdom for me, because I'm starting to get very frusterated with my oldest.

Jaiden rarely has anything good to say, it's almost always a complaint about something. It seems like nothing is good enough for him. I try to be understanding, and let him complain and share what he is feeling. But after months of nothing but negitivity I'm feeling very over whelmed. (i can give examples if needed). I don't know if I'm handleing it wrong, if I need another approach. I just don't know. It's starting to really affect Jason(dh), as most of his complaints are about things we can't do anything about. If it's somthing we can fix/do something about we do, but it's gotten to where the things he's complaining about are things out of our control, things we can't change. Any ideas would be great.

TIA

Rebecca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Ethan is the same way. It breaks my heart for him to be so unhappy all the
time. I do everything in my power to safisfy him.. but, something is always
wrong.. He's complaining right now about going to Karate, which he really
enjoyed on Monday ( first lesson). I won't "make" him go, but the
alternative is for him to stay here by himself, and he will complain about
that. It's very difficult, I can empathize, sorry I can't offer any advice

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema

Rebecca,
Can you give us some examples?
When I was a teen, I was very good at pointing out what was wrong with
everything, but not what was right... and had my reasons for it. I'd like
to hear a little bit more though, before suggesting anything.
HeidiWD

**********************
Jaiden rarely has anything good to say, it's almost always a complaint
about something. It seems like nothing is good enough for him. I try to be
understanding, and let him complain and share what he is feeling. But after
months of nothing but negitivity I'm feeling very over whelmed. (i can give
examples if needed).

"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake.” —Jeannette Rankin

Tia Leschke

>
> Jaiden rarely has anything good to say, it's almost always a complaint
about something. It seems like nothing is good enough for him. I try to be
understanding, and let him complain and share what he is feeling. But after
months of nothing but negitivity I'm feeling very over whelmed. (i can give
examples if needed). I don't know if I'm handleing it wrong, if I need
another approach. I just don't know. It's starting to really affect
Jason(dh), as most of his complaints are about things we can't do anything
about. If it's somthing we can fix/do something about we do, but it's gotten
to where the things he's complaining about are things out of our control,
things we can't change. Any ideas would be great.

Are you validating his complaints? In other words, are you accepting that
something is a problem for him, even if you can't fix it? "I wish you could
......If I could give you that, I would......I know you hate ......I wish I
could change it for you. That kind of thing. If you're already doing that,
I don't have any answers.
Tia


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Tim and Maureen

I do everything in my power to safisfy him.. but, something is always
wrong..

I wonder if trying to satisfy them becomes more of a problem. Maybe it takes away their power. I have an 11 year old son who has just been diagnosed with low thyroid. He has been real negative since about two. I have found that it is best to just let him have his feelings. I really don't have to fix anything unless he specifically asks for help and then I will work with him to find a solution. He still complains a lot and we have wondered about depression as it is big in extended family. At this time we are trying to find a good homeopathic remedy and working on helping him to turn some of his language more positive. Gently and kindly pointing it out has been helpful but I have had to be careful to be nonshaming and nonjudgemental so I usually wait until I am not so frustrated. Another thing to consider is to maybe see why it pushes buttons or disturbs you so much. For me it was because I judged myself as being a less than adequate parent. Since I have rethought that I am able to let him own it and I am able to objectively explore the situation and see if he needs some more emotional support somewhere in his life. And this is not always needed from me.
Maureen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Rebecca DeLong

grlynbl@... wrote:
<<<It's very difficult, I can empathize, sorry I can't offer any advice.>>>

Thank you for understanding, everyone I know IRL doesn't understand. They tell me to not let him complain then smirk at me and tell me how wonderful their kids are. It's hard.

Rebecca




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca DeLong

Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:

<<<Are you validating his complaints? In other words, are you accepting that
something is a problem for him, even if you can't fix it? "I wish you could
......If I could give you that, I would......I know you hate ......I wish I
could change it for you. That kind of thing.>>>

Yes, I am trying to validate all of his complaints, after about 6 hrs, of it I tend to get a bit snippy with him.

Lately his complaints have been for a pool. He say a picture of himself in one when he was 2(he's almost 5 now) and is really mad and upset that we don't still have that pool - it wasn't our pool, it was a friend of my mom's pool and they are no longer friends.- I've told him that I'm really sorry that I can't take him to that pool, and I know that it sucks that we don't have a pool (we live in an apt complex) and I will try my hardest to find a pool that he can use as soon as it warms up enough to swim, and if he wants we'll talk to the landlord and see if we can put a little pool up in the courtyard. This will calm him down for a while, mabey an hour, then it starts back up only now he adds in that we don't have the sm. pool and why can't I make it warm up enough....on and on... by the end of the day he's still going on about the pool, all through playing at the park, or going on a bug hunt, or any other things we've done. He'll start up the next day and keep going until he's found something new to complain about and it starts all over.

I don't know what to do, I may not be able to do anything, I'm just frusterated by it all.

Rebecca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca DeLong

Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...> wrote:

<<<For me it was because I judged myself as being a less than adequate parent.>>>

I think that this is a lot of it for both Jason and me. Jaidens complaining started about a year and a half ago. At that time we were planningg to move cross country, to MI, my dad and step mom were going to buy us a house and a car, they were going to pay for the best private schools, Jason was going to go into a high paying field, life was going to be grand. But...Jason didn't want to move, was willing to do it because it was what I wanted, he was injured on the job and couldn't do the physical aspect of the job in MI, we decided to homeschool, then unschool, We stayed in San Diego, in our apartment, and we have had to deal with no money - workmans comp. dosen't pay much.

So all in all, I think his complaining for things that we can't do does make us both feel like failures. It's not that we don't want to do things for him and with him, but right now we cant.

Any suggestions on how to change our mindset?

Rebecca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

luv_2_craft

> Yes, I am trying to validate all of his complaints, after about 6
hrs, of it I tend to get a bit snippy with him.


I am a proud mommy of a hyperactive 4 year old who has a tendancy to
go on a verbal whiney rampage at least daily regarding something I
usually cannot change to his satisfaction.

I have learned to give myself a mental vacation during these times. I
have learned to block out the unimportant complaining. Then when a
legitimate complaint comes forth like "I'm hungry" I am all ears
again.

It takes practice, but if you could live thru the discomfort of
bearing this child into the world, you can train yourself to have
selective hearing. Men have this inherantly. The last time I told my
husband to pick up his socks, he used this selective hearing and the
socks remained there. If I were to tell him someone was choking on a
lego, then he'd be there so quick! Thus the glories of selective
hearing.

It doesn't work all the time. The husband still can't use his to
block out the loudness of the kids at play when he's trying to
concentrate on something. I usually choose not to take that time to
do anything and let the kids have their fun. But still...

The whining is not playtime noise. It is meant to get mom's
attention. It is like a siren. A bell. A signal that something is
not right.

Babies cry, little kids whine, older kids complain and adults vent.
Ah, the glories of communication. We are human and we are never
fully satisfied with things. That's why we are capable of adaptation
and changing.

Little kids don't have the aptitude yet to understand the world
around them fully; what they can change and what they cannot and how
to adapt to any of it. So they whine.

Moms are a bit different. We can understand the difference between
these things and we are pros at adaptation. We also understand when
a child is just whiney or when it is a serious need requiring our
attentiveness.

You CAN selectively tune out the whining. You can also note to your
child that you are going to ignore until the complaining stops and
explain that you cannot change what cannot be changed (kids believe
moms are superhuman sometimes).

I would also look into diet, general stresses, television
programming, sleep disturbances, and playtime situations to see if
there isn't an underlying stress that is causing your child to be
overly sensitive. This goes back to the part where mommies can change
some things. :)

Good luck. And remember that raising a child is like growing a
flower garden. The more effort you put into it, the more beautiful
and wonderful it will be.

coyote's corner

Brianna & I have little money. We operate very close to the bone. very, very close. Brianna has had to understand that money is earned and that how we spend our money depends on what we Need to have; I.e. rent, heat, electricity, phone, food, etc.

part of what our kids ask us for comes from living in a very consumerist society.
Your sons reality is that he lives in an apt. in San Diego and he does not have a pool.
All the complaining in the world isn't going to get him a pool.

At the risk of not doing the unschooling thing, I have to say, I would try and change his mindset.

As for your mindset - well, how will you feel if/when he wants to go to Astronaut camp? Or when he says that Disney Land isn't good enough - he wants to go to Disney World.
Or when he wants a horse?
Or whatever it is.

You are not failing - unless you let him think that he should have whatever he wants when he wants it.
That does him no favor.

Janis




----- Original Message -----
From: Rebecca DeLong
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and complaining




Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...> wrote:

<<<For me it was because I judged myself as being a less than adequate parent.>>>

I think that this is a lot of it for both Jason and me. Jaidens complaining started about a year and a half ago. At that time we were planningg to move cross country, to MI, my dad and step mom were going to buy us a house and a car, they were going to pay for the best private schools, Jason was going to go into a high paying field, life was going to be grand. But...Jason didn't want to move, was willing to do it because it was what I wanted, he was injured on the job and couldn't do the physical aspect of the job in MI, we decided to homeschool, then unschool, We stayed in San Diego, in our apartment, and we have had to deal with no money - workmans comp. dosen't pay much.

So all in all, I think his complaining for things that we can't do does make us both feel like failures. It's not that we don't want to do things for him and with him, but right now we cant.

Any suggestions on how to change our mindset?

Rebecca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Jon and Rue Kream

My husband and I have found that accepting what we can't control really
brings a feeling of peace into our lives. For us, the fact that my
fibromyalgia had me in bed for a couple of years made us think about
what would REALLY make life unbearable. We always look for the positive
in whatever situation we are in. For example, he got laid off last
April. Everyone around us is surprised at how we've reacted. We're
enjoying the extra time we have together. How many kids (or wives) get
to spend a year with dad? We're not worried, we're happy. Life's full
of ups and downs, and we don't see any reason not to try to enjoy the
downs as much as we can. A sense of humor gets us through the toughest
times, and everything seems to work out in the end. We focus on what we
CAN do rather than on what we can't, and we focus on each other and how
truly lucky we are to have a happy, peaceful family.

I don't know if this will help you to change your mindsets, but I can
tell you that it's worth doing. I'd imagine your attitude would rub off
on your son as well. It's certainly rubbed off on our kids, whose
bedtime ritual includes us saying, "Everything's gonna be..." and them
responding, "all right". Dagny, who's ten, told me last week that her
favorite line from a song is, "It's not having what you want, it's
wanting what you've got." (Sheryl Crow) I wish I had figured that out
at ten :0). ~Rue

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

-----Original Message-----
From: Rebecca DeLong [mailto:elfmama@...]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 1:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and complaining


So all in all, I think his complaining for things that we can't do does
make us both feel like failures. It's not that we don't want to do
things for him and with him, but right now we cant.

Any suggestions on how to change our mindset?

Rebecca






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< At the risk of not doing the unschooling thing, I have to say, I would try
and change his mindset. >>

I don't see that it's at all unschooling to discuss philosophy and reality
with a child, including the reality of perpetual unhappiness.

Being unhappy, wallowing in unhappiness, expressing unhappiness, can be a
much more serious problem for a person than biting nails or overeating or
being late or not picking up laundry.

The advice to tune out whining sounded very bad to me. It sounded it like
ignoring a baby's crying. Convincing kids not to whine, or to change the
tone or content of the communication is the best answer I can imagine.
Ignoring them or thinking there is virtue in not advising them about their
mindset seem like bad ideas.

Sometimes when one of mine whines about the day, I ask if there's anything
they want me to do. Sometimes there is. Often there isn't.

Marty was angry yesterday about an incident last Sunday. I talked him
through what they did do, what they could have done, what the other kids
might have been thinking. I told him that had he gone to school, he would be
used to this by now, but he had the odd privilege of being fourteen before
any stranger-kids took his ball away and wouldn't return it. He NEEDED to
talk about it. I couldn't do anything about the other kids or their
behavior, but I could (and needed to) advise Marty on what would be good and
bad to do if it happened again. And I could advise compassion.

Ignoring my own child, if he or she wants to communicate with me, is as bad
as taking someone's ball away and not giving it back. It adds to
frustration. It makes them feel unheard and alone.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/24/03 12:21:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
elfmama@... writes:

> Thank you for understanding, everyone I know IRL doesn't understand. They
> tell me to not let him complain then smirk at me and tell me how wonderful
> their kids are. It's hard.
>
> Rebecca
>

I feel ya girl. I have found that only folks who are dealing with/living
with the same kinds of behaviors really understand how it feels. Hang in
there

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim and Maureen

----- Original Message -----
From: Rebecca DeLong
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and complaining




So all in all, I think his complaining for things that we can't do does make us both feel like failures. It's not that we don't want to do things for him and with him, but right now we cant.

Any suggestions on how to change our mindset?

I guess the one thing I can hear is all the guilt. I really believe that we all have different circumstances that we must live with and that we end up being stronger people by dropping the guilt and accepting it. Not that it is easy mind you. Maybe you can focus more on what you can do within your physical and monetary constraints. Maybe you have someone who can carry some of the load once in a while and provide him with "special" times.
Realizing that it probably won't always be like this and that what you can't give him in material or other ways maybe you can make up with lots of quality one on one reading ,walking, watching movies, playing games. Just some ideas. Don.t know if it is helpful or not.


Maureen

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

coyote's corner

Have you noticed that if your kid has problems, then folks/family say "Your mistake w/ her was....."
When kids turn out great "How lucky you are....."

Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: grlynbl@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and complaining


In a message dated 4/24/03 12:21:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
elfmama@... writes:

> Thank you for understanding, everyone I know IRL doesn't understand. They
> tell me to not let him complain then smirk at me and tell me how wonderful
> their kids are. It's hard.
>
> Rebecca
>

I feel ya girl. I have found that only folks who are dealing with/living
with the same kinds of behaviors really understand how it feels. Hang in
there

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/25/03 5:19:56 AM, jana@... writes:

<< Have you noticed that if your kid has problems, then folks/family say
"Your mistake w/ her was....."
When kids turn out great "How lucky you are....."
>>

I haven't.
Perhaps it's the force of my personality or the experience of my friends and
relatives that if they get into it with me they will probably soon be out of
their depth.

I hear "Aren't you worried that..."
and they hear "no."

And later I hear "You were right" or (yesterday) "You did too good a job!"
(That was about me complaining that while I do NOT want to go to a big SCA
campout on Memorial Day, that my kids really want to. "What happened to kids
not wanting to be part of their parents' hobbies!?")


But I'm pretty sure I'm an exception. Even my mother in law who strikes fear
into the hearts of co-workers (before she retired) and bridge partners
(still) and fellow church members (still) is reduced to chuckles and
single-shot snarky comments I ignore and that the kids laugh about on the way
home.

I think an arsenal of comments which require the other person to show THEIR
proofs or reasons helps. People expect to get away with vague defenses of
the traditional ways, of the status quo. I stick them uncomfortably and they
at least hush, and at most, go do some research that proves me right even
after I'm not standing there to bask in it.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

> Have you noticed that if your kid has problems, then folks/family say
"Your mistake w/ her was....."
> When kids turn out great "How lucky you are....."

Similar to . . . when a child does well in school, the school takes credit.
When a child does badly, there's something wrong with the child, or the
parents.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Tim and Maureen

----- Original Message -----
From: sandradodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and complaining



In a message dated 4/25/03 5:19:56 AM, jana@... writes:

<< Have you noticed that if your kid has problems, then folks/family say
"Your mistake w/ her was....."
When kids turn out great "How lucky you are....."
>>

My experience has been that when people spend time in a relationship with my kids they see the quality of who they are. My mom never used tosee my kids much and was my biggest doubter also she was quiet about it. As the kids have gotten older and I feel they now have the skills to handle some of her less respectful ways they see her more and with this is a grandma who is going wow, your kids have so many great qualities. It helps that she is doing an after school daycare with my brother so she really gets to see the stark difference in respect and inner motivation. There is so much more than academic skills that makes us whole people.
Maureen


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/25/03 10:09:19 AM, leschke@... writes:

<< Similar to . . . when a child does well in school, the school takes credit.

When a child does badly, there's something wrong with the child, or the

parents. >>

OOOH!!! I HATE THAT!

And all the things I learned on my own, from National Geographic kids' stuff,
or the Rocky and Bullwinkle quiz game I ordered from a cereal box (with punch
cards, and if you stuck the magic pen in the right hole a light bulb lit up)
and watching PBS and reading at the library, my teachers took credit for all
that, as though they were great teachers because I could read and spout
obscure facts and all...

But let a kid be totally not suited for school, falling through all their
cracks, and teachers will say "poor kid, crummy homelife."

Sandra

Lisa M. C. Bentley

> I think an arsenal of comments which require the other person to show THEIR
> proofs or reasons helps.

Could you give a few examples? I have a hard time coming up with things
on the spot. I usually sound defensive or loony.

-Lisa in AZ

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/25/03 4:03:30 PM, cottrellbentley@... writes:

<< > I think an arsenal of comments which require the other person to show
THEIR
> proofs or reasons helps.

Could you give a few examples? I have a hard time coming up with things
on the spot. I usually sound defensive or loony. >>

Well if they say your kids won't socialize, you could ask how many
homeschoolers they know personally. The answer is either none or some. If
some, ask if any of those are isolated from other families, from public
places, clubs, etc.

Just ask them questions in a level voice until it's apparent to them that
they don't really have the back-up information to hold their position.

If their argument comes to "Well I went to school and I learned it" or
something like that you can just look at them for an uncomfortably long
number of seconds like you're waiting for them to make a point, or to hear
what a dumb thing they've said.

Once they say uncle, you're free until the next encounter.

Sandra

Rebecca DeLong

I just wanted to thank everyone who responded to this, I ment to write more, to some specific posts, but we have all gotten hit with a really nasty bug and have all been down for a few days.

Thank you again for all your help.

Rebecca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]