Deadlines
Sandy Duggan
Not a homeschooler / unschooler. Just gathering information at this
point. I have a three-year-old and my second (and last!) child is
due in July.
I've enjoyed the posts so far and can tell that people care deeply
about their kids are are trying to provide the environment that
allows their fullest potentials as humans (not just students / cogs)
to be realized. My question is, how do unschooled children learn to
work to deadlines?
In the workplace, performance is measured partly by honoring
commitments in a timely manner. External pressure (reviews - like
grades, and disciplinary action) can be severe, but as a parent it
seems like it would be hard to enforce deadlines on unschooled
children. Often the workplace choice is to do the best job possible
in the time available while constantly facing other deadlines;
prioritizing among alternative ways to achieve the greatest overall
output seems to result in workplace success, although there is no
final say on the one best approach (except the boss's maybe).
Maybe my conventional education is clouding my judgement here and
employees should work to their own values, standards and interests
alone, although this could conflict with the reward system of the
employer? As an outsider, it seems like part of the appeal of
homeschooling / unschooling is allowing the children to direct their
own learning and to take the time needed to really grasp each
subject, but does that create problems in adapting to the workplace
where having an adequate result on time often outweighs having a
better result later? How do parents help homeschooled / unschooled
children work to deadlines, if indeed it is even a consideration?
point. I have a three-year-old and my second (and last!) child is
due in July.
I've enjoyed the posts so far and can tell that people care deeply
about their kids are are trying to provide the environment that
allows their fullest potentials as humans (not just students / cogs)
to be realized. My question is, how do unschooled children learn to
work to deadlines?
In the workplace, performance is measured partly by honoring
commitments in a timely manner. External pressure (reviews - like
grades, and disciplinary action) can be severe, but as a parent it
seems like it would be hard to enforce deadlines on unschooled
children. Often the workplace choice is to do the best job possible
in the time available while constantly facing other deadlines;
prioritizing among alternative ways to achieve the greatest overall
output seems to result in workplace success, although there is no
final say on the one best approach (except the boss's maybe).
Maybe my conventional education is clouding my judgement here and
employees should work to their own values, standards and interests
alone, although this could conflict with the reward system of the
employer? As an outsider, it seems like part of the appeal of
homeschooling / unschooling is allowing the children to direct their
own learning and to take the time needed to really grasp each
subject, but does that create problems in adapting to the workplace
where having an adequate result on time often outweighs having a
better result later? How do parents help homeschooled / unschooled
children work to deadlines, if indeed it is even a consideration?
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2003 3:49:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
m-s_dugg@... writes:
meet your deadlines? Did you need to be "trained"?
LIFE has deadlines; and as unschoolers, we deal with the "natural
consequences" of a normal life. I'm putting on a conference. It can't happen
overnight. I have to do things incrementally over a year to get there. I'm
gardening. I have to shove things in the ground after frost and before the
heat of SC sets in to grow anything---and tend them all summer to expect to
eat fresh tomatoes and cukes. I plan to have supper on the table each evening
(or not! <g>). I'm training a dog to be able to show by fall--the deadline is
set because the shows are already planned. Pool's got to be acid washed
before we can swim in it this spring; finshed that yesterday and am filling
it with water now. I have David Albert coming in to speak Friday afternoon: I
have my "to do" lists (three or four of them!) bouncing around here so that I
can meet the deadline of the 4:00 talk. I have an MNO tonight---I need to
have more flyers for the Albert talks printed up to hand out by 6:30 this
evening.
My 15 year old son has his first job working in a deli. He is incredibly "on
time", conscientious, and dependable. He didn't learn that by so many years
in school writing papers and doing science projects. He's seen his parents be
"on time", conscientious, and dependable. He WANTS to be those things as
well. And so he is. His passions are music and filming. Neither have
"deadlines". But he DID work really hard on a screenplay to have it finished
in time for his friends to learn their lines in order to begin filming.
If we're creating artificial deadlines in order to TRAIN our children, we're
"playing" with them (and I don't mean that in a good way!). There are natural
deadlines to be met in a normal everyday life. Children NATURALLY pick up on
things they want to do and steps they need to take to get there. The "natural
consequence" would be that it doesn't happen. If he wants to swim in the
upcoming swim meet and he doesn't get his entry in by the deadline, he
doesn't get to swim---natural consequence of not meeting his deadline. If he
wants to prepare an authentic Japanese supper, he'll need to start preparing
early enough to buy and cut up and cook in stages throughout the day
or---natural consequence: his guests will get too hungry and go OUT for
supper!
A child may need to be reminded that he needs to get that entry in by a
certain date or that he needs to get to the asian market before 2:00---but
he'll get to the point he can do it on his own. WE have no deadline to have
our kids "ready" to be on their own, answering to some boss. There's no
magical age that he's got to be able to meet deadlines. And school's
artificial project deadlines don't help with that. LIFE does---and the more
NATURAL deadlines he can experience, the better he'll be able to deal with
them.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
m-s_dugg@... writes:
> In the workplace, performance is measured partly by honoringDid it take you 12 years of school and four years of college to be able to
> commitments in a timely manner. External pressure (reviews - like
> grades, and disciplinary action) can be severe, but as a parent it
> seems like it would be hard to enforce deadlines on unschooled
> children. Often the workplace choice is to do the best job possible
> in the time available while constantly facing other deadlines;
> prioritizing among alternative ways to achieve the greatest overall
> output seems to result in workplace success, although there is no
> final say on the one best approach (except the boss's maybe).
>
> Maybe my conventional education is clouding my judgement here and
> employees should work to their own values, standards and interests
> alone, although this could conflict with the reward system of the
> employer? As an outsider, it seems like part of the appeal of
> homeschooling / unschooling is allowing the children to direct their
> own learning and to take the time needed to really grasp each
> subject, but does that create problems in adapting to the workplace
> where having an adequate result on time often outweighs having a
> better result later? How do parents help homeschooled / unschooled
> children work to deadlines, if indeed it is even a consideration?
>
meet your deadlines? Did you need to be "trained"?
LIFE has deadlines; and as unschoolers, we deal with the "natural
consequences" of a normal life. I'm putting on a conference. It can't happen
overnight. I have to do things incrementally over a year to get there. I'm
gardening. I have to shove things in the ground after frost and before the
heat of SC sets in to grow anything---and tend them all summer to expect to
eat fresh tomatoes and cukes. I plan to have supper on the table each evening
(or not! <g>). I'm training a dog to be able to show by fall--the deadline is
set because the shows are already planned. Pool's got to be acid washed
before we can swim in it this spring; finshed that yesterday and am filling
it with water now. I have David Albert coming in to speak Friday afternoon: I
have my "to do" lists (three or four of them!) bouncing around here so that I
can meet the deadline of the 4:00 talk. I have an MNO tonight---I need to
have more flyers for the Albert talks printed up to hand out by 6:30 this
evening.
My 15 year old son has his first job working in a deli. He is incredibly "on
time", conscientious, and dependable. He didn't learn that by so many years
in school writing papers and doing science projects. He's seen his parents be
"on time", conscientious, and dependable. He WANTS to be those things as
well. And so he is. His passions are music and filming. Neither have
"deadlines". But he DID work really hard on a screenplay to have it finished
in time for his friends to learn their lines in order to begin filming.
If we're creating artificial deadlines in order to TRAIN our children, we're
"playing" with them (and I don't mean that in a good way!). There are natural
deadlines to be met in a normal everyday life. Children NATURALLY pick up on
things they want to do and steps they need to take to get there. The "natural
consequence" would be that it doesn't happen. If he wants to swim in the
upcoming swim meet and he doesn't get his entry in by the deadline, he
doesn't get to swim---natural consequence of not meeting his deadline. If he
wants to prepare an authentic Japanese supper, he'll need to start preparing
early enough to buy and cut up and cook in stages throughout the day
or---natural consequence: his guests will get too hungry and go OUT for
supper!
A child may need to be reminded that he needs to get that entry in by a
certain date or that he needs to get to the asian market before 2:00---but
he'll get to the point he can do it on his own. WE have no deadline to have
our kids "ready" to be on their own, answering to some boss. There's no
magical age that he's got to be able to meet deadlines. And school's
artificial project deadlines don't help with that. LIFE does---and the more
NATURAL deadlines he can experience, the better he'll be able to deal with
them.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2003 2:49:32 AM Central Daylight Time,
m-s_dugg@... writes:
information that would make deadlines obvious and not arbitrary. When a boss
hands a worker an assignment, the worker may have little idea or input into
where his work fits into the larger picture. People who have a good grasp of
how their piece of the puzzle fits in can see deadlines, and can meet them
more easily, because the logic of them is obvious.
Unschooled kids set their own deadlines. Or, they have the freedom to seek
information they need to see the logic in other people's deadlines. If they
don't think the deadline is doable, they're more likely (IMO) to try and
change it or to ask the other people to consider other ideas. If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then.
I personally wouldn't work at a job where I couldn't see or didn't have
access to the big picture. I've done plenty of grunt jobs, so it's not about
being in charge. I perform better when I have a complete grasp of it, and
some control over what my part is and how I get it done. ("Punished by
Rewards" by Alfie Kohn has a good section on that.) I can't see any of the
unschooled kids I know going into a job without a secondary goal in mind...it
being a means to an end (spending money, new car, tuition), or "paying their
dues" in a field they love, or gaining experience to work for themselves.
Unschooling gave them that ability, because most of them have been operating
on that principle since they were little.
I think unschooling makes better, happier workers. They might cause trouble
for the establishment by challenging everything, but that's a GOOD thing. :)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
m-s_dugg@... writes:
> In the workplace, performance is measured partly by honoringOne problem with the workplace is that the worker is often excluded from the
> commitments in a timely manner. External pressure (reviews - like
> grades, and disciplinary action) can be severe, but as a parent it
> seems like it would be hard to enforce deadlines on unschooled
> children. Often the workplace choice is to do the best job possible
> in the time available while constantly facing other deadlines;
> prioritizing among alternative ways to achieve the greatest overall
> output seems to result in workplace success, although there is no
> final say on the one best approach (except the boss's maybe).
>
information that would make deadlines obvious and not arbitrary. When a boss
hands a worker an assignment, the worker may have little idea or input into
where his work fits into the larger picture. People who have a good grasp of
how their piece of the puzzle fits in can see deadlines, and can meet them
more easily, because the logic of them is obvious.
Unschooled kids set their own deadlines. Or, they have the freedom to seek
information they need to see the logic in other people's deadlines. If they
don't think the deadline is doable, they're more likely (IMO) to try and
change it or to ask the other people to consider other ideas. If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then.
I personally wouldn't work at a job where I couldn't see or didn't have
access to the big picture. I've done plenty of grunt jobs, so it's not about
being in charge. I perform better when I have a complete grasp of it, and
some control over what my part is and how I get it done. ("Punished by
Rewards" by Alfie Kohn has a good section on that.) I can't see any of the
unschooled kids I know going into a job without a secondary goal in mind...it
being a means to an end (spending money, new car, tuition), or "paying their
dues" in a field they love, or gaining experience to work for themselves.
Unschooling gave them that ability, because most of them have been operating
on that principle since they were little.
I think unschooling makes better, happier workers. They might cause trouble
for the establishment by challenging everything, but that's a GOOD thing. :)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbolden
>>There's no magical age that he's got to be able to meet deadlines. And school's artificial project deadlines don't help with that.<<In fact, it seems to me that artificial deadlines imposed in school can impede a child's natural tendency to do things constructively. 50-minute time periods, arbitrary deadlines, timed tests all encourage a child NOT to engage, NOT to get too interested or involved. Then the only thing to motivate him is fear of punishment or hope for a good grade -- external control, which is very similar to many work environments. Is that why so many people spend 8 hours a day (one-third of their lives!) doing as little work as possible in jobs they don't like?
Kay
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2003 7:38:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
is music and drama, and he is a member of a chorus, etc. He also likes to
take the occasional class or workshop. He often has situations where there
are deadlines: plays for which he needs to memorize lines or concerts for
which he needs to learn songs, a class where he needs to have something read,
etc.
He does those things because he knows it's important to get the result he
wants. He memorizes lines for a play because he has a committment to the
other people. You don't need to go to school to learn about the importance of
meeting deadlines -- you just have to have a life.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> I've enjoyed the posts so far and can tell that people care deeplyMy 13 year old son is an unschooler. One of the most important things to him
> about their kids are are trying to provide the environment that
> allows their fullest potentials as humans (not just students / cogs)
> to be realized. My question is, how do unschooled children learn to
> work to deadlines?
>
is music and drama, and he is a member of a chorus, etc. He also likes to
take the occasional class or workshop. He often has situations where there
are deadlines: plays for which he needs to memorize lines or concerts for
which he needs to learn songs, a class where he needs to have something read,
etc.
He does those things because he knows it's important to get the result he
wants. He memorizes lines for a play because he has a committment to the
other people. You don't need to go to school to learn about the importance of
meeting deadlines -- you just have to have a life.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tim and Maureen
----- Original Message -----
From: kbolden
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Deadlines
>>There's no magical age that he's got to be able to meet deadlines. And school's artificial project deadlines don't help with that.<<
>>In fact, it seems to me that artificial deadlines imposed in school can impede a child's natural tendency to do things constructively. 50-minute time periods, arbitrary deadlines, timed tests all encourage a child NOT to engage, NOT to get too interested or involved.>>
Exactly. With unschooling mine kids learn, are self motivated to give all they got to an activity. I have seen this happen. When they immerse in something they have perserverance and focus like I've never seen or experienced myself. I think this comes from having unimpeded time and having the freedom to go their own directional interest. I think life provides us with the lesson of having to do things we don't like all the time. I don't think when they are little that we need to teach them this.When my people choose to do something they either accept the deadlines that come with it or they get creative and find an acceptable alternative.
Maureen
on-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-=- My question is, how do unschooled children learn to
work to deadlines?-=-
-=-As an outsider, it seems like part of the appeal of
homeschooling / unschooling is allowing the children to direct their
own learning and to take the time needed to really grasp each
subject, but does that create problems in adapting to the workplace
where having an adequate result on time often outweighs having a
better result later? -=-
My kids have never been to school, but they have never missed deadlines.
Kirby is 16 and has a job. I just heard him get out of the shower. I didn't
wake him up. He will come down and make sure I'm up. He must be considered
responsible, because he's had the same job since they offered it to him just
before he turned 14. It's a retail games store. He works with customers,
with cash, stock, teaches games, organizes league play and tournaments. He
meets deadlines fine, even though he never practiced on make-believe
deadlines for homework.
The same son goes on trips to conventions and camping trips sometimes with
others. He gets me to help him checklist whether he's thought of
everything, but he has never made people late nor forgotten anything crucial.
He also teaches karate on Tuesdays (part of his own training is to teach
lower-level students) and has only been late once in a year, and only called
in sick once in that year.
My second son is 14. He made up a game he calls "orc ball" and has friends
come to play each week. He sends out announcements on time, lets people know
which park, or whether it's cancelled. I coordinate with him about snacks
and whether they're staying for videos (in which case the den has to be
cleaned up).
Those things are MUCH more real and useful than a book report or research
paper which will only be read by the teacher (if that).
Holly, at 11, is the most organized of all. She plans her day the day
before, and has her clothes ready for various things (and often has two or
three different outfits per day). She knows already what she's wearing to a
wedding May 17. She tried it all on yesterday and showed me what needs to be
adjusted.
-=-How do parents help homeschooled / unschooled
children work to deadlines, if indeed it is even a consideration?-=-
How do parents whose kids are in school help them?
They say "do your homework" and "get up and go to school."
The way I help my kids is that I know what they are doing and what they would
like to do, and we talk. We discuss things quite a bit. We remind each
other of upcoming commitments on anyone's part. We keep a big calendar in
the kitchen where we write who has promised what. But I don't have to do
these things for them.
Holly had wanted to do a picnic in a park on May 2, but friends of hers have
a big dance performance that evening with afternoon prep, so she is very
maturely changing her plans to accommodate the people she wanted to have
there.
My kids seem much more able to plan and and accomplish than I remember most
of my friends being when we were their ages. We rarely even got
opportunities to try.
Sandra
work to deadlines?-=-
-=-As an outsider, it seems like part of the appeal of
homeschooling / unschooling is allowing the children to direct their
own learning and to take the time needed to really grasp each
subject, but does that create problems in adapting to the workplace
where having an adequate result on time often outweighs having a
better result later? -=-
My kids have never been to school, but they have never missed deadlines.
Kirby is 16 and has a job. I just heard him get out of the shower. I didn't
wake him up. He will come down and make sure I'm up. He must be considered
responsible, because he's had the same job since they offered it to him just
before he turned 14. It's a retail games store. He works with customers,
with cash, stock, teaches games, organizes league play and tournaments. He
meets deadlines fine, even though he never practiced on make-believe
deadlines for homework.
The same son goes on trips to conventions and camping trips sometimes with
others. He gets me to help him checklist whether he's thought of
everything, but he has never made people late nor forgotten anything crucial.
He also teaches karate on Tuesdays (part of his own training is to teach
lower-level students) and has only been late once in a year, and only called
in sick once in that year.
My second son is 14. He made up a game he calls "orc ball" and has friends
come to play each week. He sends out announcements on time, lets people know
which park, or whether it's cancelled. I coordinate with him about snacks
and whether they're staying for videos (in which case the den has to be
cleaned up).
Those things are MUCH more real and useful than a book report or research
paper which will only be read by the teacher (if that).
Holly, at 11, is the most organized of all. She plans her day the day
before, and has her clothes ready for various things (and often has two or
three different outfits per day). She knows already what she's wearing to a
wedding May 17. She tried it all on yesterday and showed me what needs to be
adjusted.
-=-How do parents help homeschooled / unschooled
children work to deadlines, if indeed it is even a consideration?-=-
How do parents whose kids are in school help them?
They say "do your homework" and "get up and go to school."
The way I help my kids is that I know what they are doing and what they would
like to do, and we talk. We discuss things quite a bit. We remind each
other of upcoming commitments on anyone's part. We keep a big calendar in
the kitchen where we write who has promised what. But I don't have to do
these things for them.
Holly had wanted to do a picnic in a park on May 2, but friends of hers have
a big dance performance that evening with afternoon prep, so she is very
maturely changing her plans to accommodate the people she wanted to have
there.
My kids seem much more able to plan and and accomplish than I remember most
of my friends being when we were their ages. We rarely even got
opportunities to try.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/03 7:22:42 AM, tuckervill@... writes:
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
Mary
I've got something about deadlines from another point of view. My oldest,
Tara goes to school. Always has and with only one year to go, she will
finish. She has always hated deadlines in school. Always. No matter what it
was that she was "supposed" to have at a certain time, she never had it.
Homework, projects, supplies to bring in from home, even permission slips to
go on trips. It was always last minute, a day later, or just never in. She
suffered the natural consequences of school but it made no difference at
all. I tried then to ask, every day as to what she needed to have done. She
would "forget" to tell me. I would ask at school and that didn't work
either. I finally just let her have her way and deal with it. She did. It
was never done on time!
Well she's had a great job now since Nov. A job that pays very well here and
she loves it. She loves the job and the people and doesn't want to go
elsewhere. She's never been later since she started. She works 5 days a week
and still goes to school. I never had to remind her of the time. When she
needs to work early on the weekend, she's up all by herself. They have even
called her last minute because they need her and she's there in a half an
hour. She still has some days when she's late to school and some days when
she doesn't go. She's never missed work or been late.
Point to this story is that when kids are left to find their own interests,
whether that's school or not, they do what they need to do to make it work.
So being forced to meet deadlines doesn't work any better than not being
made to meet them. When and if the child puts themselves in a situation
where deadlines are necessary, and it's important to the child, then it's
not a problem at all.
Mary B
Tara goes to school. Always has and with only one year to go, she will
finish. She has always hated deadlines in school. Always. No matter what it
was that she was "supposed" to have at a certain time, she never had it.
Homework, projects, supplies to bring in from home, even permission slips to
go on trips. It was always last minute, a day later, or just never in. She
suffered the natural consequences of school but it made no difference at
all. I tried then to ask, every day as to what she needed to have done. She
would "forget" to tell me. I would ask at school and that didn't work
either. I finally just let her have her way and deal with it. She did. It
was never done on time!
Well she's had a great job now since Nov. A job that pays very well here and
she loves it. She loves the job and the people and doesn't want to go
elsewhere. She's never been later since she started. She works 5 days a week
and still goes to school. I never had to remind her of the time. When she
needs to work early on the weekend, she's up all by herself. They have even
called her last minute because they need her and she's there in a half an
hour. She still has some days when she's late to school and some days when
she doesn't go. She's never missed work or been late.
Point to this story is that when kids are left to find their own interests,
whether that's school or not, they do what they need to do to make it work.
So being forced to meet deadlines doesn't work any better than not being
made to meet them. When and if the child puts themselves in a situation
where deadlines are necessary, and it's important to the child, then it's
not a problem at all.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/03 7:22:42 AM, tuckervill@... writes:
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/03 7:22:42 AM, tuckervill@... writes:
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/03 7:22:42 AM, tuckervill@... writes:
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/03 7:22:42 AM, tuckervill@... writes:
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
<< If the
homeschooler's theater has it's performance set for May 10, and first
rehearsal is April 1, an unschooler can see that it would be best to know
their lines by then. >>
Oh right! That's an example I forgot to give. Holly was in a play, put on
by the city's theatre, but an all-homeschoolers' session with daytime
rehearsals.
Holly learned all her lines early, since she couldn't read and needed help.
As rehearsals went on, she learned everyone else's lines too. Since they
were leaning on being able to read from scripts during rehearsals, they
weren't memorizing their lines.
When the performance came two of the three main characters were Holly and her
best friend, who knew their lines. The third didn't know his. A couple of
times when it didn't matter, one of them said his line, and left the response
to him. If he didn't catch it, the other of the girls would say the
response. (Most of what they were doing was exposition or dialog that wasn't
at all character specific.) If it made him mad, he didn't dare say so,
because he didn't know his part.
But Holly was so disgusted with the others, she had no interest in the next
play they offered.
That's too bad. Somehow she met deadlines TOO well?
Sandra
[email protected]
-=- My question is, how do unschooled children learn to
work to deadlines?-=-
-=-As an outsider, it seems like part of the appeal of
homeschooling / unschooling is allowing the children to direct their
own learning and to take the time needed to really grasp each
subject, but does that create problems in adapting to the workplace
where having an adequate result on time often outweighs having a
better result later? -=-
My kids have never been to school, but they have never missed deadlines.
Kirby is 16 and has a job. I just heard him get out of the shower. I didn't
wake him up. He will come down and make sure I'm up. He must be considered
responsible, because he's had the same job since they offered it to him just
before he turned 14. It's a retail games store. He works with customers,
with cash, stock, teaches games, organizes league play and tournaments. He
meets deadlines fine, even though he never practiced on make-believe
deadlines for homework.
The same son goes on trips to conventions and camping trips sometimes with
others. He gets me to help him checklist whether he's thought of
everything, but he has never made people late nor forgotten anything crucial.
He also teaches karate on Tuesdays (part of his own training is to teach
lower-level students) and has only been late once in a year, and only called
in sick once in that year.
My second son is 14. He made up a game he calls "orc ball" and has friends
come to play each week. He sends out announnd whether they're staying for
videos (in which case the den has to be cleaned up).
Those things are MUCH more real and useful than a book report or research
paper which will only be read by the teacher (if that).
Holly, at 11, is the most organized of all. She plans her day the day
before, and has her clothes ready for various things (and often has two or
three different outfits per day). She knows already what she's wearing to a
wedding May 17. She tried it all on yesterday and showed me what needs to be
adjusted.
-=-How do parents help homeschooled / unschooled
children work to deadlines, if indeed it is even a consideration?-=-
How do parents whose kids are in school help them?
They say "do your homework" and "get up and go to school."
The way I help my kids is that I know what they are doing and what they would
like to do, and we talk. We discuss things quite a bit. We remind each
other of upcoming commitments on anyone's part. We keep a big calendar in
the kitchen where we write who has promised what. But I don't have to do
these things for them.
Holly had wanted to do a picnic in a park on May 2, but friends of hers have
a big dance performance that evening with afternoon prep, so she is very
maturely changing her plans to accommodate the people she wanted to have
there.
My kids seem much more able to plan and and accomplish than I remember most
of my friends being when we were their ages. We rarely even got
opportunities to try.
Sandra
work to deadlines?-=-
-=-As an outsider, it seems like part of the appeal of
homeschooling / unschooling is allowing the children to direct their
own learning and to take the time needed to really grasp each
subject, but does that create problems in adapting to the workplace
where having an adequate result on time often outweighs having a
better result later? -=-
My kids have never been to school, but they have never missed deadlines.
Kirby is 16 and has a job. I just heard him get out of the shower. I didn't
wake him up. He will come down and make sure I'm up. He must be considered
responsible, because he's had the same job since they offered it to him just
before he turned 14. It's a retail games store. He works with customers,
with cash, stock, teaches games, organizes league play and tournaments. He
meets deadlines fine, even though he never practiced on make-believe
deadlines for homework.
The same son goes on trips to conventions and camping trips sometimes with
others. He gets me to help him checklist whether he's thought of
everything, but he has never made people late nor forgotten anything crucial.
He also teaches karate on Tuesdays (part of his own training is to teach
lower-level students) and has only been late once in a year, and only called
in sick once in that year.
My second son is 14. He made up a game he calls "orc ball" and has friends
come to play each week. He sends out announnd whether they're staying for
videos (in which case the den has to be cleaned up).
Those things are MUCH more real and useful than a book report or research
paper which will only be read by the teacher (if that).
Holly, at 11, is the most organized of all. She plans her day the day
before, and has her clothes ready for various things (and often has two or
three different outfits per day). She knows already what she's wearing to a
wedding May 17. She tried it all on yesterday and showed me what needs to be
adjusted.
-=-How do parents help homeschooled / unschooled
children work to deadlines, if indeed it is even a consideration?-=-
How do parents whose kids are in school help them?
They say "do your homework" and "get up and go to school."
The way I help my kids is that I know what they are doing and what they would
like to do, and we talk. We discuss things quite a bit. We remind each
other of upcoming commitments on anyone's part. We keep a big calendar in
the kitchen where we write who has promised what. But I don't have to do
these things for them.
Holly had wanted to do a picnic in a park on May 2, but friends of hers have
a big dance performance that evening with afternoon prep, so she is very
maturely changing her plans to accommodate the people she wanted to have
there.
My kids seem much more able to plan and and accomplish than I remember most
of my friends being when we were their ages. We rarely even got
opportunities to try.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/03 6:38:02 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< My question is, how do unschooled children learn to
work to deadlines? >>
I was actually having a conversation with a co-worker about this.
He has a good friend that is a professor at that college (you know Kelly,
they one you promoted at the conference) that is home/unschool friendly. Very
open, relaxed atmosphere where the students are very much in control of their
learning.
Anyway, he was saying that his friend taught a lot of homeschoolers that were
coming to the college. He had all good things to say about them EXCEPT the
fact that they found it a bit of a challenge to deal with deadlines at first.
His comment was "big deal, they'll figure it out after the first few months"
and apparently they did.
So it was a bit of a challenge for some of them, but like any smart person
does, they learn. I guess it was not a big deal at all and this professors
experience was that the self-taught and homeschooled students were WAY more
fun to work with.
They were so interested and self-directed.
I'd say that isn't much to overcome if deadlines are the worst thing they
have to figure out!! And I bet some of them already have it figured out just
fine LONG before they go to college.
Not worth worrying about.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< My question is, how do unschooled children learn to
work to deadlines? >>
I was actually having a conversation with a co-worker about this.
He has a good friend that is a professor at that college (you know Kelly,
they one you promoted at the conference) that is home/unschool friendly. Very
open, relaxed atmosphere where the students are very much in control of their
learning.
Anyway, he was saying that his friend taught a lot of homeschoolers that were
coming to the college. He had all good things to say about them EXCEPT the
fact that they found it a bit of a challenge to deal with deadlines at first.
His comment was "big deal, they'll figure it out after the first few months"
and apparently they did.
So it was a bit of a challenge for some of them, but like any smart person
does, they learn. I guess it was not a big deal at all and this professors
experience was that the self-taught and homeschooled students were WAY more
fun to work with.
They were so interested and self-directed.
I'd say that isn't much to overcome if deadlines are the worst thing they
have to figure out!! And I bet some of them already have it figured out just
fine LONG before they go to college.
Not worth worrying about.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/03 1:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< And school's
artificial project deadlines don't help with that. LIFE does---and the more
NATURAL deadlines he can experience, the better he'll be able to deal with
them. >>
And I wonder if the homeschooled kids at college are the ones having the
harder time with deadlines, because they are finally truly free.
I bet unschoolers deal with them BETTER than the kids with artificial
constraints on their time.
Trevor doesn't seem to have ANY problem with the concept.
He wakes me up for our weekly "resource day" and reminds me when it's time
for guitar lessons. No problems here.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< And school's
artificial project deadlines don't help with that. LIFE does---and the more
NATURAL deadlines he can experience, the better he'll be able to deal with
them. >>
And I wonder if the homeschooled kids at college are the ones having the
harder time with deadlines, because they are finally truly free.
I bet unschoolers deal with them BETTER than the kids with artificial
constraints on their time.
Trevor doesn't seem to have ANY problem with the concept.
He wakes me up for our weekly "resource day" and reminds me when it's time
for guitar lessons. No problems here.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
Peggy
> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:40:17 -0500Exactly! In a way it is learned dependence. Some will chafe at it and
> From: "kbolden" <kbolden@...>
>
>
>>>>>There's no magical age that he's got to be able to meet deadlines. And school's artificial project deadlines don't help with that.<<
>
>
> In fact, it seems to me that artificial deadlines imposed in school can impede a child's natural tendency to do things constructively. 50-minute time periods, arbitrary deadlines, timed tests all encourage a child NOT to engage, NOT to get too interested or involved. Then the only thing to motivate him is fear of punishment or hope for a good grade -- external control, which is very similar to many work environments. Is that why so many people spend 8 hours a day (one-third of their lives!) doing as little work as possible in jobs they don't like?
>
> Kay
>
some will buckle under and try to please but all will be damaged inside
by it to some degree. And this is what the schools do with subject
matter too. A little here, a little there until finding out what the
teacher wants and how to please them becomes the reward, not internal
satisfaction or enjoyment in the depth of the material learned.
Peggy
Robin Clevenger
From: "Sandy Duggan" <m-s_dugg@...>
this? All they're given is artificial and meaningless deadlines for which
there may or may not be a penalty for failing to prepare or meet the
deadline. I rarely did homework in school, or if I did, I did it on the bus.
Crammed for all the tests, regurgitated the knowledge and then wiped it from
my memory. Got all A's without learning a thing, the least of which being
how to actually prepare for a deadline. When I started my career and was
faced with real deadlines, I hadn't a clue about how to work towards them. I
tried to follow the same formula that had been successful for me in school,
only to find that in real life you can't procrastinate and then cram.
Unfortunately, where I worked (Microsoft) I found that this was often the
case with people coming out of school. Smart kids only knew how to
manipulate the system, they had no idea how to actually prepare. It was a
continual problem when I got into managing teams of people (as was
motivation, but that's another post :-)
As for unschoolers learning how to work to deadlines. Mine so far have
learned in two ways:
1) They learn from planning for things that they want to accomplish. For
instance, my son (then 5) held several plant sales last summer. He wanted
some large Lego sets and decided to earn his own money. So he had to acquire
supplies, plant seeds, and take cuttings ahead of time so that they had
plenty of time to grow into good sized plants to sell. Then before the sale,
he had to make signs, get money for change, decide on prices and put price
stickers on the plants, and borrow a card table to display his wares. He had
to get to the sale on time and set up. Of course, being as he's so young, I
helped with a lot of the logistics (driving, etc.) But he did a huge amount
of the work/preparation himself.
2) They learn from our example. My kids constantly see me working with
deadlines. I train/prepare for triathlons. I write articles, I schedule
playdates and homeschool activities and put together the supplies ahead of
time. Last week it was "Homeschool Hogwarts", we had our "Sorting Hat
Ceremony". So I had to gather the stuff I needed to bring, reserve the hall,
make the food, etc. Since unschooled kids are an integral part of the every
day life of adults, they get an insider's view into how adults really do
plan for deadlines. Whether it's packing for a camping trip, or editing my
writing, my kids see what I'm doing and I'm sure they learn from it (they
also learn from my mistakes, of course. Like the time I didn't print out my
camping list and therefore forgot important things like silverware).
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
>My question is, how do unschooled children learn toI think the real question is how do schooled children ever get to learn
>work to deadlines?
this? All they're given is artificial and meaningless deadlines for which
there may or may not be a penalty for failing to prepare or meet the
deadline. I rarely did homework in school, or if I did, I did it on the bus.
Crammed for all the tests, regurgitated the knowledge and then wiped it from
my memory. Got all A's without learning a thing, the least of which being
how to actually prepare for a deadline. When I started my career and was
faced with real deadlines, I hadn't a clue about how to work towards them. I
tried to follow the same formula that had been successful for me in school,
only to find that in real life you can't procrastinate and then cram.
Unfortunately, where I worked (Microsoft) I found that this was often the
case with people coming out of school. Smart kids only knew how to
manipulate the system, they had no idea how to actually prepare. It was a
continual problem when I got into managing teams of people (as was
motivation, but that's another post :-)
As for unschoolers learning how to work to deadlines. Mine so far have
learned in two ways:
1) They learn from planning for things that they want to accomplish. For
instance, my son (then 5) held several plant sales last summer. He wanted
some large Lego sets and decided to earn his own money. So he had to acquire
supplies, plant seeds, and take cuttings ahead of time so that they had
plenty of time to grow into good sized plants to sell. Then before the sale,
he had to make signs, get money for change, decide on prices and put price
stickers on the plants, and borrow a card table to display his wares. He had
to get to the sale on time and set up. Of course, being as he's so young, I
helped with a lot of the logistics (driving, etc.) But he did a huge amount
of the work/preparation himself.
2) They learn from our example. My kids constantly see me working with
deadlines. I train/prepare for triathlons. I write articles, I schedule
playdates and homeschool activities and put together the supplies ahead of
time. Last week it was "Homeschool Hogwarts", we had our "Sorting Hat
Ceremony". So I had to gather the stuff I needed to bring, reserve the hall,
make the food, etc. Since unschooled kids are an integral part of the every
day life of adults, they get an insider's view into how adults really do
plan for deadlines. Whether it's packing for a camping trip, or editing my
writing, my kids see what I'm doing and I'm sure they learn from it (they
also learn from my mistakes, of course. Like the time I didn't print out my
camping list and therefore forgot important things like silverware).
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Sandy Duggan
Thank you to all who replied to my question regarding how to teach
children to meet deadlines. It sounds as if no specific effort is
required from the parents to teach this concept, which is
reassuring. I especially agree with Kay who suggested that
artificial deadlines such as 50 minute class periods can work against
the learning process. Your personal stories of how your children
develop such a strong sense of commitment on their own are
inspiring. In fact, as I read through this list of mostly positive
experiences, I wonder if there is another segment of the
homeschooling / unschooling population that isn't represented here,
or if such experiences are generally normal? Again -- as an outsider
and someone who basically felt my educational needs were met by the
public school system -- children self-directing their own learning
sure seems too good to be true, but I don't want to argue with
success. Obviously, I'm intrigued or I wouldn't be reading the
messages here. I do have to say that becoming a parent for the first
time later in life and not having spent much time with babies and
toddlers, I am so amazed to watch the development process of my son.
I don't try to teach him anything at this point (he's only three)
other than to brush his teeth, wash his hands, manners, and
other 'survival' skills. Of course, I'd like to see his sense of
wonder last indefinitely, so we'll see; maybe I will join your ranks
someday . . .
I'm interested in responses to Mary T.'s message ("bored," #65602)
since the situation she is facing seems like a real challenge.
children to meet deadlines. It sounds as if no specific effort is
required from the parents to teach this concept, which is
reassuring. I especially agree with Kay who suggested that
artificial deadlines such as 50 minute class periods can work against
the learning process. Your personal stories of how your children
develop such a strong sense of commitment on their own are
inspiring. In fact, as I read through this list of mostly positive
experiences, I wonder if there is another segment of the
homeschooling / unschooling population that isn't represented here,
or if such experiences are generally normal? Again -- as an outsider
and someone who basically felt my educational needs were met by the
public school system -- children self-directing their own learning
sure seems too good to be true, but I don't want to argue with
success. Obviously, I'm intrigued or I wouldn't be reading the
messages here. I do have to say that becoming a parent for the first
time later in life and not having spent much time with babies and
toddlers, I am so amazed to watch the development process of my son.
I don't try to teach him anything at this point (he's only three)
other than to brush his teeth, wash his hands, manners, and
other 'survival' skills. Of course, I'd like to see his sense of
wonder last indefinitely, so we'll see; maybe I will join your ranks
someday . . .
I'm interested in responses to Mary T.'s message ("bored," #65602)
since the situation she is facing seems like a real challenge.
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/24/03 12:25:47 AM, m-s_dugg@... writes:
<< In fact, as I read through this list of mostly positive
experiences, I wonder if there is another segment of the
homeschooling / unschooling population that isn't represented here,
or if such experiences are generally normal? >>
If you're used to school, where everyone has to turn in a paper, and if
you're used to class averages, you might think that way. <g>
There are over 1,000 people on this list. A few chose to respond. If
someone has a child who's never met a deadline, they won't likely bestir
themselves to tell everybody.
But that's not to say that I think there are a lot of people who are
withholding bad stories, either.
You will never, ever get statistics on homeschoolers because there's no way
to even tell who homeschools in an "everyone turns in a paper" way. And the
vast majority of homeschoolers are doing some or all school-at-home and so
their patterns will be school patterns in many ways.
The best you can hope for is what you got here. You had a concern and people
showed you it's not a guaranteed or inevitable outcome.
-=- Again -- as an outsider
and someone who basically felt my educational needs were met by the
public school system -- children self-directing their own learning
sure seems too good to be true, but I don't want to argue with
success. -=-
"Self-directing their own learning" is a very stiff construct, and still
school-vision-based. It seems each child will somehow unfold one day into
some sort of natural curriculum. That's not how it works.
What you can get with unschooling IF you let the child unfold like a flower,
like a tree, is children learning constantly and joyfully. They don't direct
themselves. They live. You provide the yard, the good soil, the water, the
atmosphere, and you protect them from the cats and birds and lawnmowers and
crazy stomping people.
<<Of course, I'd like to see his sense of
wonder last indefinitely, so we'll see; maybe I will join your ranks
someday . . . .>
I found that my own sense of wonder at my children's grown and learning
needed to be nourished and encouraged. So I quit hanging around with any
other moms who were cynical or mean to or about children and gravitated
toward moms who were sweet and patient so I could be more like them. And now
with kids who are 16, 14, and 11, I still have a sense of wonder at their
observational skills, their ideas about relationships and politics and how
teaching works (Holly is wanting to take a break from her fiddle lessons and
her teacher is baffled and using arguments that amuse Holly in an attempt to
guilt Holly into staying) and how people respond to them as opposed to how
they respond to "schoolkids."
I'm still deeply interested in their responses to music, movies and jokes. I
was reading poetry to Holly last night and got really sleepy, but she asked
me to keep reading, so I walked and came back a little more awake and read
her to sleep. That is interesting to me, too.
So there is more two-way than a mom waiting to see a child self-direct. It
starts sooner. It is a bolstered relationship where the mom provides safety
and opportunity and input and freedom.
Sandra
<< In fact, as I read through this list of mostly positive
experiences, I wonder if there is another segment of the
homeschooling / unschooling population that isn't represented here,
or if such experiences are generally normal? >>
If you're used to school, where everyone has to turn in a paper, and if
you're used to class averages, you might think that way. <g>
There are over 1,000 people on this list. A few chose to respond. If
someone has a child who's never met a deadline, they won't likely bestir
themselves to tell everybody.
But that's not to say that I think there are a lot of people who are
withholding bad stories, either.
You will never, ever get statistics on homeschoolers because there's no way
to even tell who homeschools in an "everyone turns in a paper" way. And the
vast majority of homeschoolers are doing some or all school-at-home and so
their patterns will be school patterns in many ways.
The best you can hope for is what you got here. You had a concern and people
showed you it's not a guaranteed or inevitable outcome.
-=- Again -- as an outsider
and someone who basically felt my educational needs were met by the
public school system -- children self-directing their own learning
sure seems too good to be true, but I don't want to argue with
success. -=-
"Self-directing their own learning" is a very stiff construct, and still
school-vision-based. It seems each child will somehow unfold one day into
some sort of natural curriculum. That's not how it works.
What you can get with unschooling IF you let the child unfold like a flower,
like a tree, is children learning constantly and joyfully. They don't direct
themselves. They live. You provide the yard, the good soil, the water, the
atmosphere, and you protect them from the cats and birds and lawnmowers and
crazy stomping people.
<<Of course, I'd like to see his sense of
wonder last indefinitely, so we'll see; maybe I will join your ranks
someday . . . .>
I found that my own sense of wonder at my children's grown and learning
needed to be nourished and encouraged. So I quit hanging around with any
other moms who were cynical or mean to or about children and gravitated
toward moms who were sweet and patient so I could be more like them. And now
with kids who are 16, 14, and 11, I still have a sense of wonder at their
observational skills, their ideas about relationships and politics and how
teaching works (Holly is wanting to take a break from her fiddle lessons and
her teacher is baffled and using arguments that amuse Holly in an attempt to
guilt Holly into staying) and how people respond to them as opposed to how
they respond to "schoolkids."
I'm still deeply interested in their responses to music, movies and jokes. I
was reading poetry to Holly last night and got really sleepy, but she asked
me to keep reading, so I walked and came back a little more awake and read
her to sleep. That is interesting to me, too.
So there is more two-way than a mom waiting to see a child self-direct. It
starts sooner. It is a bolstered relationship where the mom provides safety
and opportunity and input and freedom.
Sandra
Betsy
**Obviously, I'm intrigued or I wouldn't be reading the
messages here. I do have to say that becoming a parent for the first
time later in life and not having spent much time with babies and
toddlers, I am so amazed to watch the development process of my son.
I don't try to teach him anything at this point (he's only three)
other than to brush his teeth, wash his hands, manners, and
other 'survival' skills. Of course, I'd like to see his sense of
wonder last indefinitely, so we'll see; maybe I will join your ranks
someday . . . **
I think this is a key reason many of us homeschool. There have been
many stories posted here of delightful, exuberant children turning into
pale shadows of themselves due to their K or 1st grade experiences.
It's doubtful that the child himself can remember the extinguishing
process, though.
Betsy
messages here. I do have to say that becoming a parent for the first
time later in life and not having spent much time with babies and
toddlers, I am so amazed to watch the development process of my son.
I don't try to teach him anything at this point (he's only three)
other than to brush his teeth, wash his hands, manners, and
other 'survival' skills. Of course, I'd like to see his sense of
wonder last indefinitely, so we'll see; maybe I will join your ranks
someday . . . **
I think this is a key reason many of us homeschool. There have been
many stories posted here of delightful, exuberant children turning into
pale shadows of themselves due to their K or 1st grade experiences.
It's doubtful that the child himself can remember the extinguishing
process, though.
Betsy
Bronwen
> In a message dated 4/24/03 12:25:47 AM, m-s_dugg@... writes:To underline what others have said, unschooling is different from homeschooling in general- I would imagine there are allot of kids who are "homeschooled" who deal with deadlines the way school kids do. Also, school and parents/societies lack of trust can damage kids, so even if they are "unschooling" now, they are having to heal and center themselves.
>
> << In fact, as I read through this list of mostly positive
>
> experiences, I wonder if there is another segment of the
>
> homeschooling / unschooling population that isn't represented here,
>
> or if such experiences are generally normal? >>
>
But maybe the real question is-
Is it possible that a human being could be born with out the ability to learn and live as a person?
Are there "dud" people, who with out coersion, gold stars, and punishments, would sit and drool on the couch? (maybe anticephalics?)
I mean, millions of years- no "school"-
Is it that *now*- in these last two hundred years, in the evolution of our species, we have developed something in our society that has to be "hammered in"?
To answer your question-
I think it is impossible that any person, given freedom, interdependance, love and respect would not grow up to be someone who is aware of his gifts and generously gives them to society.
The trick, however, is giving our children and ourselves that freedom, interdependance, love and respect. It is not just school that denies people those things.
~Bronwen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]