kids and beliefs (really long)
elfmama_2
Okay, we had a something happen last night that I just wasn't
prepared for.
(a little background)
When Jason and I became parents we had a long talk about religion and
spirituality. We both have different views - he's athiest, with
eastern/toaist leanings, I'm pagan, but still seeking. We both come
from very diverse families - his family are southern baptist one one
side and head up and run the morman church here in S.D. on the other,
but his parents are wiccan. My family, my mome is christian, stepdad
raised jewish(doesn't parctice), my dad is a follower of native
american spirituality and a memeber of the native american church,
and my step mom is lutherian.
So, Jason and I talked and talked about how to prestent our beliefs
to our kids. We both decided that we would wait, having both had
religion forced down out throats - Jason, christianity and paganism,
and me, chrisianity. We wanted our kids to have an option that we as
children didn't have. To choose for them selves. We decided that when
they were ready, meaning when they came to use with questions, we
would start talking and exploreing ideas and relgions frm all over
and give them the information to choose on their own what the wanted
to belive.
We figured the questions would start when they were about 6-7, but
were prepared for them at any time. So last night...
Jaiden started telling us all about Jesus, we asked him where he had
heard about Jesus. He told us that gramy(my mom) had been telling him
all about him, how he was like a saver, and a super hero...needless
to say, Jason jumped on the phone and had a long talk with her. She
said that she wouldn't do it again. We asked if Jaiden had been
asking questions, and she said no, but that she had felt that it was
her duty to make sure he knew all about god, that way he would be
protected against our beliefs.
Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for my kids,
free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I had
never planned on. All the grandparents knew where we stood on
religion and belief and we had no problem with them sharing there
belifes with the kids, as long as it was honest and sought after. And
we wanted to be there, if the kids were very young.
So, I'm just not really sure where to go from here. Do I let it lie,
and wait for Jaiden to come to us, do I start introducing other
belife systems. I'm feeling very lost at the moment.
Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this. Any ideas would
be helpful.
Rebecca
prepared for.
(a little background)
When Jason and I became parents we had a long talk about religion and
spirituality. We both have different views - he's athiest, with
eastern/toaist leanings, I'm pagan, but still seeking. We both come
from very diverse families - his family are southern baptist one one
side and head up and run the morman church here in S.D. on the other,
but his parents are wiccan. My family, my mome is christian, stepdad
raised jewish(doesn't parctice), my dad is a follower of native
american spirituality and a memeber of the native american church,
and my step mom is lutherian.
So, Jason and I talked and talked about how to prestent our beliefs
to our kids. We both decided that we would wait, having both had
religion forced down out throats - Jason, christianity and paganism,
and me, chrisianity. We wanted our kids to have an option that we as
children didn't have. To choose for them selves. We decided that when
they were ready, meaning when they came to use with questions, we
would start talking and exploreing ideas and relgions frm all over
and give them the information to choose on their own what the wanted
to belive.
We figured the questions would start when they were about 6-7, but
were prepared for them at any time. So last night...
Jaiden started telling us all about Jesus, we asked him where he had
heard about Jesus. He told us that gramy(my mom) had been telling him
all about him, how he was like a saver, and a super hero...needless
to say, Jason jumped on the phone and had a long talk with her. She
said that she wouldn't do it again. We asked if Jaiden had been
asking questions, and she said no, but that she had felt that it was
her duty to make sure he knew all about god, that way he would be
protected against our beliefs.
Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for my kids,
free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I had
never planned on. All the grandparents knew where we stood on
religion and belief and we had no problem with them sharing there
belifes with the kids, as long as it was honest and sought after. And
we wanted to be there, if the kids were very young.
So, I'm just not really sure where to go from here. Do I let it lie,
and wait for Jaiden to come to us, do I start introducing other
belife systems. I'm feeling very lost at the moment.
Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this. Any ideas would
be helpful.
Rebecca
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/2003 11:36:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
elfmama@... writes:
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elfmama@... writes:
> We both have different views - he's athiest, withNow, THAT'S a background!
> eastern/toaist leanings, I'm pagan, but still seeking. We both come
> from very diverse families - his family are southern baptist one one
> side and head up and run the morman church here in S.D. on the other,
> but his parents are wiccan. My family, my mome is christian, stepdad
> raised jewish(doesn't parctice), my dad is a follower of native
> american spirituality and a memeber of the native american church,
> and my step mom is lutherian.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma2kids
>>Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for mykids, free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I
had never planned on.>>
I don't think it's as damaging as you feel it is right now. How old
is Jaiden? Kids get input from lots of different sources on lots of
different topics. It's okay to calmly mention that "superhero Jesus"
is what Grandma believes in and isn't that great for her. Lots of
people have different beliefs. I don't think he's going to
internalize this belief system based on what Grandma has been saying.
>>So, I'm just not really sure where to go from here. Do I let itlie, and wait for Jaiden to come to us, do I start introducing other
belife systems. I'm feeling very lost at the moment.>>
::Breathe:: All is well. Really.
I would have very calm and peaceful and casual talks with Jaiden as
he seems to want them. Don't make a big deal out of it. In our home,
we are also helping our kids to find their own spirituality. They see
what we live, and what nourishes our spirits, and we share that with
them verbally as it seems appropriate.
Life is good.
~Mary
Susan Fuerst
Well, I can only say that what people believe is usually very important
to them. And often it's important to them to share it with the next
generations. SO Jaiden can learn that. And while you can talk to
relatives and friends about how and what they say to your son, it's up
to you to manage your own response.
If she had talked to him about the Civil War or evolution orthe night
sky and constellations, even if he hadn't asked, would that pose a
problem? She either sparks his curiosity or bores him and he doesn't
ask. He brought it home to you to discuss....keep the communication
open. If you believe that he has his own path to knowledge and
understanding in other ares, why not in regard to faith and beliefs?
Susan
-----Original Message-----
From: elfmama_2 [mailto:elfmama@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 11:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and beliefs (really long)
Okay, we had a something happen last night that I just wasn't
prepared for.
(a little background)
When Jason and I became parents we had a long talk about religion and
spirituality. We both have different views - he's athiest, with
eastern/toaist leanings, I'm pagan, but still seeking. We both come
from very diverse families - his family are southern baptist one one
side and head up and run the morman church here in S.D. on the other,
but his parents are wiccan. My family, my mome is christian, stepdad
raised jewish(doesn't parctice), my dad is a follower of native
american spirituality and a memeber of the native american church,
and my step mom is lutherian.
So, Jason and I talked and talked about how to prestent our beliefs
to our kids. We both decided that we would wait, having both had
religion forced down out throats - Jason, christianity and paganism,
and me, chrisianity. We wanted our kids to have an option that we as
children didn't have. To choose for them selves. We decided that when
they were ready, meaning when they came to use with questions, we
would start talking and exploreing ideas and relgions frm all over
and give them the information to choose on their own what the wanted
to belive.
We figured the questions would start when they were about 6-7, but
were prepared for them at any time. So last night...
Jaiden started telling us all about Jesus, we asked him where he had
heard about Jesus. He told us that gramy(my mom) had been telling him
all about him, how he was like a saver, and a super hero...needless
to say, Jason jumped on the phone and had a long talk with her. She
said that she wouldn't do it again. We asked if Jaiden had been
asking questions, and she said no, but that she had felt that it was
her duty to make sure he knew all about god, that way he would be
protected against our beliefs.
Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for my kids,
free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I had
never planned on. All the grandparents knew where we stood on
religion and belief and we had no problem with them sharing there
belifes with the kids, as long as it was honest and sought after. And
we wanted to be there, if the kids were very young.
So, I'm just not really sure where to go from here. Do I let it lie,
and wait for Jaiden to come to us, do I start introducing other
belife systems. I'm feeling very lost at the moment.
Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this. Any ideas would
be helpful.
Rebecca
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to them. And often it's important to them to share it with the next
generations. SO Jaiden can learn that. And while you can talk to
relatives and friends about how and what they say to your son, it's up
to you to manage your own response.
If she had talked to him about the Civil War or evolution orthe night
sky and constellations, even if he hadn't asked, would that pose a
problem? She either sparks his curiosity or bores him and he doesn't
ask. He brought it home to you to discuss....keep the communication
open. If you believe that he has his own path to knowledge and
understanding in other ares, why not in regard to faith and beliefs?
Susan
-----Original Message-----
From: elfmama_2 [mailto:elfmama@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 11:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and beliefs (really long)
Okay, we had a something happen last night that I just wasn't
prepared for.
(a little background)
When Jason and I became parents we had a long talk about religion and
spirituality. We both have different views - he's athiest, with
eastern/toaist leanings, I'm pagan, but still seeking. We both come
from very diverse families - his family are southern baptist one one
side and head up and run the morman church here in S.D. on the other,
but his parents are wiccan. My family, my mome is christian, stepdad
raised jewish(doesn't parctice), my dad is a follower of native
american spirituality and a memeber of the native american church,
and my step mom is lutherian.
So, Jason and I talked and talked about how to prestent our beliefs
to our kids. We both decided that we would wait, having both had
religion forced down out throats - Jason, christianity and paganism,
and me, chrisianity. We wanted our kids to have an option that we as
children didn't have. To choose for them selves. We decided that when
they were ready, meaning when they came to use with questions, we
would start talking and exploreing ideas and relgions frm all over
and give them the information to choose on their own what the wanted
to belive.
We figured the questions would start when they were about 6-7, but
were prepared for them at any time. So last night...
Jaiden started telling us all about Jesus, we asked him where he had
heard about Jesus. He told us that gramy(my mom) had been telling him
all about him, how he was like a saver, and a super hero...needless
to say, Jason jumped on the phone and had a long talk with her. She
said that she wouldn't do it again. We asked if Jaiden had been
asking questions, and she said no, but that she had felt that it was
her duty to make sure he knew all about god, that way he would be
protected against our beliefs.
Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for my kids,
free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I had
never planned on. All the grandparents knew where we stood on
religion and belief and we had no problem with them sharing there
belifes with the kids, as long as it was honest and sought after. And
we wanted to be there, if the kids were very young.
So, I'm just not really sure where to go from here. Do I let it lie,
and wait for Jaiden to come to us, do I start introducing other
belife systems. I'm feeling very lost at the moment.
Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this. Any ideas would
be helpful.
Rebecca
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[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/03 9:36:58 AM, elfmama@... writes:
<< Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for my kids,
free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I had
never planned on. >>
I don't see it as damaging. I would just say, "Lots of people believe that.
Others believe other things." You don't need to explain everything right
now.
At Easter you could tell him what Easter's about (bunny bits and crucifix
bits both) and he'll build his own model of the history of religion in his
own head, gradually.
He can't really have choice without information.
I wouldn't be mad at the grandmother unless she told him you're going to hell
to burn in eternal pits of brimstone forever. That might really torque me.
But if she was more vague and bright about it, I'd let it go.
Sandra
<< Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for my kids,
free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I had
never planned on. >>
I don't see it as damaging. I would just say, "Lots of people believe that.
Others believe other things." You don't need to explain everything right
now.
At Easter you could tell him what Easter's about (bunny bits and crucifix
bits both) and he'll build his own model of the history of religion in his
own head, gradually.
He can't really have choice without information.
I wouldn't be mad at the grandmother unless she told him you're going to hell
to burn in eternal pits of brimstone forever. That might really torque me.
But if she was more vague and bright about it, I'd let it go.
Sandra
zenmomma2kids
>>And while you can talk to relatives and friends about how and whatthey say to your son, it's up to you to manage your own response.>>
Good point. If we freak out every time someone shares some new
information with our kids, they'll pick up on that. ::Breate:: Take
it in stride.
>>If she had talked to him about the Civil War or evolution orthenight sky and constellations, even if he hadn't asked, would that
pose a problem?>>
Well, those are fact based, not belief based. So kind of different.
But I see your point. What about if Grandma talked about aliens or
out of body experiences?
Life is good.
~Mary
Rebecca DeLong
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
In a message dated 4/16/2003 11:36:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
elfmama@... writes:
Yep, it sure does make the holidays interesting<bg>
Rebecca
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In a message dated 4/16/2003 11:36:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
elfmama@... writes:
> We both have different views - he's athiest, with<<<Now, THAT'S a background!>>>
> eastern/toaist leanings, I'm pagan, but still seeking. We both come
> from very diverse families - his family are southern baptist one one
> side and head up and run the morman church here in S.D. on the other,
> but his parents are wiccan. My family, my mome is christian, stepdad
> raised jewish(doesn't parctice), my dad is a follower of native
> american spirituality and a memeber of the native american church,
> and my step mom is lutherian.
Yep, it sure does make the holidays interesting<bg>
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sevenhavei
>different.
> Well, those are fact based, not belief based. So kind of
> But I see your point. What about if Grandma talked about aliens orSo what if she did? Personally, I STILL think it would be cool to
> out of body experiences?
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
hear my Grandma talk about those things!
As a parent, you have the ability to discuss those things with your
child, whether or not *you* think it's true, and why you think so.
Even after the fact. If you feel like your children are being told
untruths, then you also have the ability to remove them from the
situation. (Something I've been reminded of in my own recent
experiences with my grandmother and my children.)
I just LOVE this list!!!!!
Jennifer
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<I wouldn't be mad at the grandmother unless she told him you're going to
hell
to burn in eternal pits of brimstone forever. That might really torque me.
But if she was more vague and bright about it, I'd let it go.>>
I agree with this also. Look at it as information is story time. He's
learning about something new and can make his mind up about it later. You
can tell him other beliefs. I don't see it as harming as much as just
information. Now if she starts to preach and suggests her way is the only
right way, that's a problem.
Mary B
<<I wouldn't be mad at the grandmother unless she told him you're going to
hell
to burn in eternal pits of brimstone forever. That might really torque me.
But if she was more vague and bright about it, I'd let it go.>>
I agree with this also. Look at it as information is story time. He's
learning about something new and can make his mind up about it later. You
can tell him other beliefs. I don't see it as harming as much as just
information. Now if she starts to preach and suggests her way is the only
right way, that's a problem.
Mary B
Rebecca DeLong
zenmomma2kids <zenmomma@...> wrote:
<<<I don't think it's as damaging as you feel it is right now. How old
is Jaiden? Kids get input from lots of different sources on lots of
different topics. It's okay to calmly mention that "superhero Jesus"
is what Grandma believes in and isn't that great for her. Lots of
people have different beliefs. I don't think he's going to
internalize this belief system based on what Grandma has been saying.>>>
I know it's not as bad I'm thinking it is, the post this morning was after a long night up with Jason, he was very upset about all of it, and a very unrestful sleep this morning. We did talk to Jaiden last night, explaining to him that Jesus was what gramy belives in, but that it's only one belife, lots of different people belive in lots of different things.
What I am worried about, is the way that she's been telling him, going over our heads, she knew how we felt. Jaiden told me this morning that grammy told him not to belive what we said to him about religion, we are wrong, she's right. That I have a problem with.
<<<::Breathe:: All is well. Really.
I would have very calm and peaceful and casual talks with Jaiden as
he seems to want them. Don't make a big deal out of it. In our home,
we are also helping our kids to find their own spirituality. They see
what we live, and what nourishes our spirits, and we share that with
them verbally as it seems appropriate.>>>
This is what we plan on doing, I just am angry and feel like I need to undo what she's done. I know that this stems from my childhood and the things that were done to me for the sake of religion, I'm trying to let it go, moments like this just make it hard. I don't want to put my feelings on to my kids. I want them to have choices. I'm not sure if I'm being very clear, or even rational at this point, if I'm not, I'm sorry this is just a very touchy subject for me and Jason.
Rebecca
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<<<I don't think it's as damaging as you feel it is right now. How old
is Jaiden? Kids get input from lots of different sources on lots of
different topics. It's okay to calmly mention that "superhero Jesus"
is what Grandma believes in and isn't that great for her. Lots of
people have different beliefs. I don't think he's going to
internalize this belief system based on what Grandma has been saying.>>>
I know it's not as bad I'm thinking it is, the post this morning was after a long night up with Jason, he was very upset about all of it, and a very unrestful sleep this morning. We did talk to Jaiden last night, explaining to him that Jesus was what gramy belives in, but that it's only one belife, lots of different people belive in lots of different things.
What I am worried about, is the way that she's been telling him, going over our heads, she knew how we felt. Jaiden told me this morning that grammy told him not to belive what we said to him about religion, we are wrong, she's right. That I have a problem with.
<<<::Breathe:: All is well. Really.
I would have very calm and peaceful and casual talks with Jaiden as
he seems to want them. Don't make a big deal out of it. In our home,
we are also helping our kids to find their own spirituality. They see
what we live, and what nourishes our spirits, and we share that with
them verbally as it seems appropriate.>>>
This is what we plan on doing, I just am angry and feel like I need to undo what she's done. I know that this stems from my childhood and the things that were done to me for the sake of religion, I'm trying to let it go, moments like this just make it hard. I don't want to put my feelings on to my kids. I want them to have choices. I'm not sure if I'm being very clear, or even rational at this point, if I'm not, I'm sorry this is just a very touchy subject for me and Jason.
Rebecca
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Tia Leschke
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
What I am worried about, is the way that she's been telling him, going over
our heads, she knew how we felt. Jaiden told me this morning that grammy
told him not to belive what we said to him about religion, we are wrong,
she's right. That I have a problem with.
*That* I would have a problem with, a huge problem. At the least, I would
tell him that some people are so convinced that their religion is the right
one that they feel they have to tell everyone about it. If he said that it
bothered him, I'd tell him to just smile and nod or something and change the
subject. (I also doubt I'd let him go there without a parent.)
Tia
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...
What I am worried about, is the way that she's been telling him, going over
our heads, she knew how we felt. Jaiden told me this morning that grammy
told him not to belive what we said to him about religion, we are wrong,
she's right. That I have a problem with.
*That* I would have a problem with, a huge problem. At the least, I would
tell him that some people are so convinced that their religion is the right
one that they feel they have to tell everyone about it. If he said that it
bothered him, I'd tell him to just smile and nod or something and change the
subject. (I also doubt I'd let him go there without a parent.)
Tia
Rebecca DeLong
Susan Fuerst <fuerst@...> wrote:
<<<If she had talked to him about the Civil War or evolution orthe night
sky and constellations, even if he hadn't asked, would that pose a
problem? She either sparks his curiosity or bores him and he doesn't
ask.>>>
No, those things would not bother me, and my problems with her discusing this with him are, the way she chose to go about it, and I know what it is that she belives and how she teaches it. I'm still trying to get over it.
<<<He brought it home to you to discuss....keep the communication
open. If you believe that he has his own path to knowledge and
understanding in other ares, why not in regard to faith and beliefs?>>>
We did discuss it, and will continue to discuss it as Jaiden wants to. I do belive that he has his own path in regards to faith and belife, and that part of the problem. My mom doesn't belive it, she wants him on her path, not his. I want him to have more than her opinion, and the way she presented it to him was that she has the ONLY truth and anything Jason and I might say to him would be a lie.
Rebecca
Susan
-----Original Message-----
From: elfmama_2 [mailto:elfmama@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 11:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and beliefs (really long)
Okay, we had a something happen last night that I just wasn't
prepared for.
(a little background)
When Jason and I became parents we had a long talk about religion and
spirituality. We both have different views - he's athiest, with
eastern/toaist leanings, I'm pagan, but still seeking. We both come
from very diverse families - his family are southern baptist one one
side and head up and run the morman church here in S.D. on the other,
but his parents are wiccan. My family, my mome is christian, stepdad
raised jewish(doesn't parctice), my dad is a follower of native
american spirituality and a memeber of the native american church,
and my step mom is lutherian.
So, Jason and I talked and talked about how to prestent our beliefs
to our kids. We both decided that we would wait, having both had
religion forced down out throats - Jason, christianity and paganism,
and me, chrisianity. We wanted our kids to have an option that we as
children didn't have. To choose for them selves. We decided that when
they were ready, meaning when they came to use with questions, we
would start talking and exploreing ideas and relgions frm all over
and give them the information to choose on their own what the wanted
to belive.
We figured the questions would start when they were about 6-7, but
were prepared for them at any time. So last night...
Jaiden started telling us all about Jesus, we asked him where he had
heard about Jesus. He told us that gramy(my mom) had been telling him
all about him, how he was like a saver, and a super hero...needless
to say, Jason jumped on the phone and had a long talk with her. She
said that she wouldn't do it again. We asked if Jaiden had been
asking questions, and she said no, but that she had felt that it was
her duty to make sure he knew all about god, that way he would be
protected against our beliefs.
Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for my kids,
free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I had
never planned on. All the grandparents knew where we stood on
religion and belief and we had no problem with them sharing there
belifes with the kids, as long as it was honest and sought after. And
we wanted to be there, if the kids were very young.
So, I'm just not really sure where to go from here. Do I let it lie,
and wait for Jaiden to come to us, do I start introducing other
belife systems. I'm feeling very lost at the moment.
Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this. Any ideas would
be helpful.
Rebecca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<If she had talked to him about the Civil War or evolution orthe night
sky and constellations, even if he hadn't asked, would that pose a
problem? She either sparks his curiosity or bores him and he doesn't
ask.>>>
No, those things would not bother me, and my problems with her discusing this with him are, the way she chose to go about it, and I know what it is that she belives and how she teaches it. I'm still trying to get over it.
<<<He brought it home to you to discuss....keep the communication
open. If you believe that he has his own path to knowledge and
understanding in other ares, why not in regard to faith and beliefs?>>>
We did discuss it, and will continue to discuss it as Jaiden wants to. I do belive that he has his own path in regards to faith and belife, and that part of the problem. My mom doesn't belive it, she wants him on her path, not his. I want him to have more than her opinion, and the way she presented it to him was that she has the ONLY truth and anything Jason and I might say to him would be a lie.
Rebecca
Susan
-----Original Message-----
From: elfmama_2 [mailto:elfmama@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 11:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] kids and beliefs (really long)
Okay, we had a something happen last night that I just wasn't
prepared for.
(a little background)
When Jason and I became parents we had a long talk about religion and
spirituality. We both have different views - he's athiest, with
eastern/toaist leanings, I'm pagan, but still seeking. We both come
from very diverse families - his family are southern baptist one one
side and head up and run the morman church here in S.D. on the other,
but his parents are wiccan. My family, my mome is christian, stepdad
raised jewish(doesn't parctice), my dad is a follower of native
american spirituality and a memeber of the native american church,
and my step mom is lutherian.
So, Jason and I talked and talked about how to prestent our beliefs
to our kids. We both decided that we would wait, having both had
religion forced down out throats - Jason, christianity and paganism,
and me, chrisianity. We wanted our kids to have an option that we as
children didn't have. To choose for them selves. We decided that when
they were ready, meaning when they came to use with questions, we
would start talking and exploreing ideas and relgions frm all over
and give them the information to choose on their own what the wanted
to belive.
We figured the questions would start when they were about 6-7, but
were prepared for them at any time. So last night...
Jaiden started telling us all about Jesus, we asked him where he had
heard about Jesus. He told us that gramy(my mom) had been telling him
all about him, how he was like a saver, and a super hero...needless
to say, Jason jumped on the phone and had a long talk with her. She
said that she wouldn't do it again. We asked if Jaiden had been
asking questions, and she said no, but that she had felt that it was
her duty to make sure he knew all about god, that way he would be
protected against our beliefs.
Now, I don't know what to do, i feel like what I wanted for my kids,
free choice, is gone. I feel like I have damamge to undo that I had
never planned on. All the grandparents knew where we stood on
religion and belief and we had no problem with them sharing there
belifes with the kids, as long as it was honest and sought after. And
we wanted to be there, if the kids were very young.
So, I'm just not really sure where to go from here. Do I let it lie,
and wait for Jaiden to come to us, do I start introducing other
belife systems. I'm feeling very lost at the moment.
Thank you to anyone who made it to the end of this. Any ideas would
be helpful.
Rebecca
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Rebecca DeLong
SandraDodd@... wrote:
<<<I don't see it as damaging. I would just say, "Lots of people believe that.
Others believe other things." You don't need to explain everything right
now.>>>
I'm trying to look at it a different way, a lot of what I wrote this morning was coming from a place of remembering my childhood experances at the hands of my mothers religion.
We have been talking today about other belife systems and reading stories. Jaiden has found it interesting, but he keeps asking why grammy said I would lie to him.
<<<At Easter you could tell him what Easter's about (bunny bits and crucifix
bits both) and he'll build his own model of the history of religion in his
own head, gradually.>>>
We have been doing this, I love "holidays" and have a nice collection of folk tales from different regions and we read them, and talk about them.
<<<He can't really have choice without information.>>>
I agree, I just wanted the information to be unbiased and honest, not Jesus is a flying, cape wareing super hero the likes of superman. Thats not honest.
<<<I wouldn't be mad at the grandmother unless she told him you're going to hell
to burn in eternal pits of brimstone forever. That might really torque me.
But if she was more vague and bright about it, I'd let it go.>>>
As far as I know, she didn't tell him about burning in hell, but she did tell him that I would lie to him and she would tell him the truth.
Rebecca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<I don't see it as damaging. I would just say, "Lots of people believe that.
Others believe other things." You don't need to explain everything right
now.>>>
I'm trying to look at it a different way, a lot of what I wrote this morning was coming from a place of remembering my childhood experances at the hands of my mothers religion.
We have been talking today about other belife systems and reading stories. Jaiden has found it interesting, but he keeps asking why grammy said I would lie to him.
<<<At Easter you could tell him what Easter's about (bunny bits and crucifix
bits both) and he'll build his own model of the history of religion in his
own head, gradually.>>>
We have been doing this, I love "holidays" and have a nice collection of folk tales from different regions and we read them, and talk about them.
<<<He can't really have choice without information.>>>
I agree, I just wanted the information to be unbiased and honest, not Jesus is a flying, cape wareing super hero the likes of superman. Thats not honest.
<<<I wouldn't be mad at the grandmother unless she told him you're going to hell
to burn in eternal pits of brimstone forever. That might really torque me.
But if she was more vague and bright about it, I'd let it go.>>>
As far as I know, she didn't tell him about burning in hell, but she did tell him that I would lie to him and she would tell him the truth.
Rebecca
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Rebecca DeLong
zenmomma2kids <zenmomma@...> wrote:
<<<Good point. If we freak out every time someone shares some new
information with our kids, they'll pick up on that. ::Breate:: Take
it in stride.>>>
I'm breathing.
I'm not freaking out, at least not on the outside<g>. Jason freaked out a bit last night, but most of it was after Jaiden and Avery were in bed, and we were alone.
pose a problem?
Well, those are fact based, not belief based. So kind of different.
But I see your point. What about if Grandma talked about aliens or
out of body experiences?>>>
I think, it's really more the way she talked to him about it that's bothering me. She was not honest. I have a problem with lieing, to any one. She doesn't have a problem lieing to kids, if it suits her purpose.
If she had sat down with him and talked to him about her belifes and why she belived that way, and mentioned that others belived diffrently but this was why she belives the way she does, I might be a little upset, but not like this. I could except that, and if Jaiden was interested in following up on it okay.
But she didn't, and I'm upset.
Rebecca
Life is good.
~Mary
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<<<Good point. If we freak out every time someone shares some new
information with our kids, they'll pick up on that. ::Breate:: Take
it in stride.>>>
I'm breathing.
I'm not freaking out, at least not on the outside<g>. Jason freaked out a bit last night, but most of it was after Jaiden and Avery were in bed, and we were alone.
>>>If she had talked to him about the Civil War or evolution orthenight sky and constellations, even if he hadn't asked, would that
pose a problem?
Well, those are fact based, not belief based. So kind of different.
But I see your point. What about if Grandma talked about aliens or
out of body experiences?>>>
I think, it's really more the way she talked to him about it that's bothering me. She was not honest. I have a problem with lieing, to any one. She doesn't have a problem lieing to kids, if it suits her purpose.
If she had sat down with him and talked to him about her belifes and why she belived that way, and mentioned that others belived diffrently but this was why she belives the way she does, I might be a little upset, but not like this. I could except that, and if Jaiden was interested in following up on it okay.
But she didn't, and I'm upset.
Rebecca
Life is good.
~Mary
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Rebecca DeLong
sevenhavei <jmcseals@...> wrote:
<<<So what if she did? Personally, I STILL think it would be cool to
hear my Grandma talk about those things!>>>
Do you think it would be cool if she lied about what she belived, just to get your kids interested? (the flying, capewearing superhero Jesus)
Maybe it's just me.
<<<As a parent, you have the ability to discuss those things with your
child, whether or not *you* think it's true, and why you think so.
Even after the fact. If you feel like your children are being told
untruths, then you also have the ability to remove them from the
situation. (Something I've been reminded of in my own recent
experiences with my grandmother and my children.)>>>
I belive that when it comes to personal belifes, it's just that personal, and that each person needs to find there own truths. I want that for my kids. I don't want them lied to just for the sake of getting them interested in something they may not be interested in.(did that make sense?)
I know what my mom belives as far as Jesus is concerned. I also know that she presented it to Jaiden the way she did to get him interested, because he wasn't.
Rebecca
<<<I just LOVE this list!!!!!>>.
So do I. :-)
Rebecca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<So what if she did? Personally, I STILL think it would be cool to
hear my Grandma talk about those things!>>>
Do you think it would be cool if she lied about what she belived, just to get your kids interested? (the flying, capewearing superhero Jesus)
Maybe it's just me.
<<<As a parent, you have the ability to discuss those things with your
child, whether or not *you* think it's true, and why you think so.
Even after the fact. If you feel like your children are being told
untruths, then you also have the ability to remove them from the
situation. (Something I've been reminded of in my own recent
experiences with my grandmother and my children.)>>>
I belive that when it comes to personal belifes, it's just that personal, and that each person needs to find there own truths. I want that for my kids. I don't want them lied to just for the sake of getting them interested in something they may not be interested in.(did that make sense?)
I know what my mom belives as far as Jesus is concerned. I also know that she presented it to Jaiden the way she did to get him interested, because he wasn't.
Rebecca
<<<I just LOVE this list!!!!!>>.
So do I. :-)
Rebecca
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Rebecca DeLong
Mary <mummy124@...> wrote:
From: SandraDodd@...
<<<I agree with this also. Look at it as information is story time. He's
learning about something new and can make his mind up about it later. You
can tell him other beliefs. I don't see it as harming as much as just
information. Now if she starts to preach and suggests her way is the only
right way, that's a problem.>>>
She did, she told hi that we would lie to him and she would tell him the truth.
Rebecca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: SandraDodd@...
<<<I agree with this also. Look at it as information is story time. He's
learning about something new and can make his mind up about it later. You
can tell him other beliefs. I don't see it as harming as much as just
information. Now if she starts to preach and suggests her way is the only
right way, that's a problem.>>>
She did, she told hi that we would lie to him and she would tell him the truth.
Rebecca
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zenmomma2kids
>>What about if Grandma talked about aliens or out of bodyexperiences? >>
> So what if she did? Personally, I STILL think it would be cool toMe too. My point was that it might be easier to think about if you
> hear my Grandma talk about those things! >>
can picture the Grandma/Grandson conversation being about something
that wasn't so personally loaded as religion.
Life is good.
~Mary
Mary
From: "Rebecca DeLong" <elfmama@...>
<<She did, she told hi that we would lie to him and she would tell him the
truth.>>
Sorry then, I missed that part. That's a problem. I understand why you're
upset now.
Mary B
<<She did, she told hi that we would lie to him and she would tell him the
truth.>>
Sorry then, I missed that part. That's a problem. I understand why you're
upset now.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/03 1:45:06 PM, elfmama@... writes:
<< Jaiden told me this morning that grammy told him not to belive what we
said to him about religion, we are wrong, she's right. That I have a problem
with.
honestly believes in hell, which you don't, and that she's afraid he might go
there, but you are SURE there's no danger of that.
<<I just am angry and feel like I need to undo what she's done. I know that
this stems from my childhood and the things that were done to me for the sake
of religion, I'm trying to let it go, moments like this just make it hard.>>
It's sad that this will color his future discussions with his grandmother.
No matter what she talks to him about for a while, I bet he'll be wary.
Sandra
<< Jaiden told me this morning that grammy told him not to belive what we
said to him about religion, we are wrong, she's right. That I have a problem
with.
>>I would too, but I would explain to him why she believes that way, that she
honestly believes in hell, which you don't, and that she's afraid he might go
there, but you are SURE there's no danger of that.
<<I just am angry and feel like I need to undo what she's done. I know that
this stems from my childhood and the things that were done to me for the sake
of religion, I'm trying to let it go, moments like this just make it hard.>>
It's sad that this will color his future discussions with his grandmother.
No matter what she talks to him about for a while, I bet he'll be wary.
Sandra
zenmomma2kids
>>What I am worried about, is the way that she's been telling him,going over our heads, she knew how we felt. Jaiden told me this
morning that grammy told him not to belive what we said to him about
religion, we are wrong, she's right. That I have a problem with.>>
Yes, I'd have a problem with that too. I'd tell Jaiden that Grandma
is wrong, flat out. She means well but is following a belief system
based on fear. You don't need that passed on to him. I'm assuming you
already told Grandma this is not okay.
>>This is what we plan on doing, I just am angry and feel like I needto undo what she's done.>>
You can't undo what's she's done. But you can still approach
spirituality with Jaiden just like you planned. She's gonna just have
to be one of those life lessons along the path.
Life is good.
~Mary
sevenhavei
>to
> <<<So what if she did? Personally, I STILL think it would be cool
> hear my Grandma talk about those things!>>>just to get your kids interested? (the flying, capewearing superhero
>
> Do you think it would be cool if she lied about what she belived,
Jesus)
>Woah, woah! Hang on a second! That wasn't taken in context. I was
> Maybe it's just me.
specifically talking about the aliens comment when I said that.
Should have made that more clear. Sorry for the confusion.
> I belive that when it comes to personal belifes, it's just thatpersonal, and that each person needs to find there own truths. I
want that for my kids. I don't want them lied to just for the sake
of getting them interested in something they may not be interested
in.(did that make sense?)
>I am in complete agreement with you. And what you said makes
complete sense. What I was trying to get across was that if I were
in your situation, I would offer my son my beliefs and let him know
that *I* felt like what Grandma said was wrong. It also sounds like
your mother isn't just offering her beliefs though. She seems to be
stating them as fact and telling him YOU are wrong. THAT is what
*I* would have a problem with. Basically, I don't find sharing
beliefs to be a bad thing. It is when they are presented in a "my
way or the highway" or "your mother is lying to you" sort of way
that it becomes dangerous.
Your children have the unique opporunity to truly make their own
informed decisions. What a rich religious family background!
All in all, I was trying to be supportive. It's hard to convey the
sound of words in print. I think you just misunderstood what I was
saying, that's all.
Jennifer
Rebecca DeLong
Mary <mummy124@...> wrote:
From: "Rebecca DeLong" <elfmama@...>
<<She did, she told hi that we would lie to him and she would tell him the
truth.>>
<<<Sorry then, I missed that part. That's a problem. I understand why you're
upset now.>>>
You didn't miss it, it wasn't in the first post. I wrote that this morning before Jaiden got up, he told me a little more after he got up.
Rebecca
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From: "Rebecca DeLong" <elfmama@...>
<<She did, she told hi that we would lie to him and she would tell him the
truth.>>
<<<Sorry then, I missed that part. That's a problem. I understand why you're
upset now.>>>
You didn't miss it, it wasn't in the first post. I wrote that this morning before Jaiden got up, he told me a little more after he got up.
Rebecca
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sevenhavei
> Me too. My point was that it might be easier to think about if yousomething
> can picture the Grandma/Grandson conversation being about
> that wasn't so personally loaded as religion.LOL! See there! It's so easy to misunderstand without hearing the
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
tone in the words. I thought you meant that as if it were a 'bad'
thing! Ah well, you live and learn...
Jennifer
sablehs
Rebecca DeLong <elfmama@...> wrote:
Mary <mummy124@...> wrote:
<<<I agree with this also. Look at it as information is story time. He's
learning about something new and can make his mind up about it later. You
can tell him other beliefs. I don't see it as harming as much as just
information. Now if she starts to preach and suggests her way is the only
right way, that's a problem.>>>
..
She did, she told hi that we would lie to him and she would tell him the truth.>>
The biggest thing we did with our kids from the start is taught them how to question. Even us. We tell tem our beliefs and how we see things but also let them question that as well because after all I really don't KNOW for sure. I think when we did this they understood over time we had nothing to hide or defend. Being open and honest about being subject to faults will only show him that you are being the most truthful, I would guess.
After all he has trusted you by telling you in the first place. Just keep the conversation going. I wouldn't drill him for information but having somewhat the same situation, I ask the kids when they have been someplace if someone asked about this or that. If so I go on to talk about it as long as they seem interested and as you go, ask them if they have any questions...
Tracy
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary <mummy124@...> wrote:
<<<I agree with this also. Look at it as information is story time. He's
learning about something new and can make his mind up about it later. You
can tell him other beliefs. I don't see it as harming as much as just
information. Now if she starts to preach and suggests her way is the only
right way, that's a problem.>>>
..
She did, she told hi that we would lie to him and she would tell him the truth.>>
The biggest thing we did with our kids from the start is taught them how to question. Even us. We tell tem our beliefs and how we see things but also let them question that as well because after all I really don't KNOW for sure. I think when we did this they understood over time we had nothing to hide or defend. Being open and honest about being subject to faults will only show him that you are being the most truthful, I would guess.
After all he has trusted you by telling you in the first place. Just keep the conversation going. I wouldn't drill him for information but having somewhat the same situation, I ask the kids when they have been someplace if someone asked about this or that. If so I go on to talk about it as long as they seem interested and as you go, ask them if they have any questions...
Tracy
---------------------------------
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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Rebecca DeLong
zenmomma2kids <zenmomma@...> wrote:
<<<Yes, I'd have a problem with that too. I'd tell Jaiden that Grandma
is wrong, flat out. She means well but is following a belief system
based on fear. You don't need that passed on to him. I'm assuming you
already told Grandma this is not okay.>>>
I haven't had a chance to talk to her today, Jason has though, and I'm waiting for things to calm down a little before I talk to her, but I think she has the idea.
<<<You can't undo what's she's done. But you can still approach
spirituality with Jaiden just like you planned. She's gonna just have
to be one of those life lessons along the path.>>>
I know that I cant, one of those life rewinders would be kinda nice right now, though :). I like that, grammy the life lesson <g>.
Rebecca
Life is good.
~Mary
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<<<Yes, I'd have a problem with that too. I'd tell Jaiden that Grandma
is wrong, flat out. She means well but is following a belief system
based on fear. You don't need that passed on to him. I'm assuming you
already told Grandma this is not okay.>>>
I haven't had a chance to talk to her today, Jason has though, and I'm waiting for things to calm down a little before I talk to her, but I think she has the idea.
<<<You can't undo what's she's done. But you can still approach
spirituality with Jaiden just like you planned. She's gonna just have
to be one of those life lessons along the path.>>>
I know that I cant, one of those life rewinders would be kinda nice right now, though :). I like that, grammy the life lesson <g>.
Rebecca
Life is good.
~Mary
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Rebecca DeLong
sevenhavei <jmcseals@...> wrote:
<<<Woah, woah! Hang on a second! That wasn't taken in context. I was
specifically talking about the aliens comment when I said that.
Should have made that more clear. Sorry for the confusion.>>>
I'm sorry, I should have waited to post, but I hit send before I could take it back. Jason and my mom were arguing while I was writing this and your post got caught up in all the emotion. I think I did misunderstand also, again I am sorry.
<<<I am in complete agreement with you. And what you said makes
complete sense. What I was trying to get across was that if I were
in your situation, I would offer my son my beliefs and let him know
that *I* felt like what Grandma said was wrong. It also sounds like
your mother isn't just offering her beliefs though. She seems to be
stating them as fact and telling him YOU are wrong. THAT is what
*I* would have a problem with. Basically, I don't find sharing
beliefs to be a bad thing. It is when they are presented in a "my
way or the highway" or "your mother is lying to you" sort of way
that it becomes dangerous.>>>
I don't find belief sharing to to bad, as long as it is presented in an open and honest way, and unfortunatly, my mom didn't go that route.
<<<Your children have the unique opporunity to truly make their own
informed decisions. What a rich religious family background!>>>
It's full alright, not sure how we are all able to be in the same place at the same time <g>
<<<All in all, I was trying to be supportive. It's hard to convey the
sound of words in print. I think you just misunderstood what I was
saying, that's all.>>>
I did misunderstand I'm sorry if I jumped on you, it's been a long day.
Rebecca
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<<<Woah, woah! Hang on a second! That wasn't taken in context. I was
specifically talking about the aliens comment when I said that.
Should have made that more clear. Sorry for the confusion.>>>
I'm sorry, I should have waited to post, but I hit send before I could take it back. Jason and my mom were arguing while I was writing this and your post got caught up in all the emotion. I think I did misunderstand also, again I am sorry.
<<<I am in complete agreement with you. And what you said makes
complete sense. What I was trying to get across was that if I were
in your situation, I would offer my son my beliefs and let him know
that *I* felt like what Grandma said was wrong. It also sounds like
your mother isn't just offering her beliefs though. She seems to be
stating them as fact and telling him YOU are wrong. THAT is what
*I* would have a problem with. Basically, I don't find sharing
beliefs to be a bad thing. It is when they are presented in a "my
way or the highway" or "your mother is lying to you" sort of way
that it becomes dangerous.>>>
I don't find belief sharing to to bad, as long as it is presented in an open and honest way, and unfortunatly, my mom didn't go that route.
<<<Your children have the unique opporunity to truly make their own
informed decisions. What a rich religious family background!>>>
It's full alright, not sure how we are all able to be in the same place at the same time <g>
<<<All in all, I was trying to be supportive. It's hard to convey the
sound of words in print. I think you just misunderstood what I was
saying, that's all.>>>
I did misunderstand I'm sorry if I jumped on you, it's been a long day.
Rebecca
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Rebecca DeLong
sablehs <sablehs@...> wrote:
<<<The biggest thing we did with our kids from the start is taught them how to question. Even us. We tell tem our beliefs and how we see things but also let them question that as well because after all I really don't KNOW for sure. I think when we did this they understood over time we had nothing to hide or defend. Being open and honest about being subject to faults will only show him that you are being the most truthful, I would guess.>>>
We, hopefully, have shown him that it is okay to question everything, he's just a very sweet trusting child, the thought that someone he loves would not be completly open and honest with him is hard for him to understand.
<<<After all he has trusted you by telling you in the first place. Just keep the conversation going. I wouldn't drill him for information but having somewhat the same situation, I ask the kids when they have been someplace if someone asked about this or that. If so I go on to talk about it as long as they seem interested and as you go, ask them if they have any questions...>>>
I think part of the reason he told us what she said, was because he was told that we were going to lie to him, it was something he didn't understand.
We did have a good time reading some different spring/easter stories today, and planning what we were going to do, I'm not sure if we'll be spending it with my mom or not.
Rebecca
Tracy
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<<<The biggest thing we did with our kids from the start is taught them how to question. Even us. We tell tem our beliefs and how we see things but also let them question that as well because after all I really don't KNOW for sure. I think when we did this they understood over time we had nothing to hide or defend. Being open and honest about being subject to faults will only show him that you are being the most truthful, I would guess.>>>
We, hopefully, have shown him that it is okay to question everything, he's just a very sweet trusting child, the thought that someone he loves would not be completly open and honest with him is hard for him to understand.
<<<After all he has trusted you by telling you in the first place. Just keep the conversation going. I wouldn't drill him for information but having somewhat the same situation, I ask the kids when they have been someplace if someone asked about this or that. If so I go on to talk about it as long as they seem interested and as you go, ask them if they have any questions...>>>
I think part of the reason he told us what she said, was because he was told that we were going to lie to him, it was something he didn't understand.
We did have a good time reading some different spring/easter stories today, and planning what we were going to do, I'm not sure if we'll be spending it with my mom or not.
Rebecca
Tracy
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Betsy
**I haven't had a chance to talk to her today, Jason has though, and I'm
waiting for things to calm down a little before I talk to her, but I
think she has the idea.**
Would it help to mostly stay away from the religious content of the
controversy and just focus on the fact that you don't appreciate it that
she called you a liar to your son?
Telling him her beliefs, even if you don't believe them, is more of a
gray area, in my opinion, than the other offense.
Betsy
waiting for things to calm down a little before I talk to her, but I
think she has the idea.**
Would it help to mostly stay away from the religious content of the
controversy and just focus on the fact that you don't appreciate it that
she called you a liar to your son?
Telling him her beliefs, even if you don't believe them, is more of a
gray area, in my opinion, than the other offense.
Betsy
Rebecca DeLong
Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:
<<<*That* I would have a problem with, a huge problem. At the least, I would
tell him that some people are so convinced that their religion is the right
one that they feel they have to tell everyone about it. If he said that it
bothered him, I'd tell him to just smile and nod or something and change the
subject. (I also doubt I'd let him go there without a parent.)>>>
Jason had a long talk with Jaiden today, I they discussed things a little more indepth than I had with him, and I think that Jaiden has a little better understanding as to where my mom is coming from, something I didn't really want to have happen at 4, but it was out of my control and were trying to make the best of the situation.
It's hard to always have a parent with him because he goes to spend the night with my little brother, I hate to take that away from him. Jason had a long talk with my mom today, and I'm going to talk to hertomorrow and we'll see wher ethings are standing then.
Rebecca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<*That* I would have a problem with, a huge problem. At the least, I would
tell him that some people are so convinced that their religion is the right
one that they feel they have to tell everyone about it. If he said that it
bothered him, I'd tell him to just smile and nod or something and change the
subject. (I also doubt I'd let him go there without a parent.)>>>
Jason had a long talk with Jaiden today, I they discussed things a little more indepth than I had with him, and I think that Jaiden has a little better understanding as to where my mom is coming from, something I didn't really want to have happen at 4, but it was out of my control and were trying to make the best of the situation.
It's hard to always have a parent with him because he goes to spend the night with my little brother, I hate to take that away from him. Jason had a long talk with my mom today, and I'm going to talk to hertomorrow and we'll see wher ethings are standing then.
Rebecca
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Rebecca DeLong
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 4/16/03 1:45:06 PM, elfmama@... writes:
<<<I would too, but I would explain to him why she believes that way, that she
honestly believes in hell, which you don't, and that she's afraid he might go
there, but you are SURE there's no danger of that.>>>
I did talk to him a bunch today, and I'll be here willing to talk to him when ever he needs to.
<<<It's sad that this will color his future discussions with his grandmother.
No matter what she talks to him about for a while, I bet he'll be wary.>>>
It makes me sad too, as much as we disagree, I love her and I know that she loves her grandkids. Jaiden is a little hurt right now, and he feels bad that she would tell him lies. I feel bad that he's lost a little of his trust in the world.
Rebecca
Sandra
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In a message dated 4/16/03 1:45:06 PM, elfmama@... writes:
<<<I would too, but I would explain to him why she believes that way, that she
honestly believes in hell, which you don't, and that she's afraid he might go
there, but you are SURE there's no danger of that.>>>
I did talk to him a bunch today, and I'll be here willing to talk to him when ever he needs to.
<<<It's sad that this will color his future discussions with his grandmother.
No matter what she talks to him about for a while, I bet he'll be wary.>>>
It makes me sad too, as much as we disagree, I love her and I know that she loves her grandkids. Jaiden is a little hurt right now, and he feels bad that she would tell him lies. I feel bad that he's lost a little of his trust in the world.
Rebecca
Sandra
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