daily rituals and unschooling *and* a ps on dealing with family
jmcseals SEALS
My question is mostly geared towards larger families, but I'd love to hear
anyone's response. My children are 12, 6, 5, 4, 2, 1, and 6 months. I find
it difficult to maintain peace and happiness without some sort of daily
rhythm. Our 'schedules' are not set in stone, but I came to unschooling
from a Waldorf perspective and we really enjoy the daily flow of having a
guiding rhythm. I say we because I see that my children benefit from
knowing what to expect in general. Examples would be, mealtimes, nap/quiet
times, bedtimes, etc. We don't so much have a certain time set by the
clock, but we do follow an evening ritual of baths, songs, stories, bedtime.
This may start at 6 in the evening or 8 in the evening, but we tend to
follow the same general path every night. I find when we stray from this,
if I let them do their own thing and head off to bed whenever, they are all
quite fussy and we end up with a lot of fights. (Not between the kids and I
but between the kids together.)
My oldest daughter (12) is not so much involved in this process, aside from
mealtimes, etc. After three years of listening to me rave about Harry
Potter, she stayed up all night and read the entire first book till 4 in the
morning. (She came to me today and told me she read it but wanted it to be
a surprise. She also asked for book 2, lol.) I've never said anything more
than how much I loved it but she was over my shoulder this week reading
about the video games you all have been discussing. Guess that sparked her
interest!
My question is: Is it hindering to have such a daily rhythm? If so, do you
have any suggestions in curbing the fighting and unhappiness that result
when no rhythm is involved? Perhaps, had we not been doing this for so long
it might be different, but since we have been doing it for so long, I guess
it just seems natural to them. On the rare occasion that I do hear a
compaint, such as nap/quiet time, I try to offer suggestions for things to
do, play outside (in this case they can be loud), quietly watch tv, play a
game, spend time with me cooking, reading, etc., etc. The one thing I find
I must insist on is our daily quiet time. If the older kids are loud in the
house while the boys and the baby nap, they don't sleep and end up being
extremely fussy throughout the rest of the day. I'm interested particularly
on any thoughts directly related to this situation.
For us, the situation is working. I just wonder what it looks like from an
unschooling perspective.
Warm Wishes,
Jennifer
PS. Re: Dealing with family
I decided to write my grandmother the letter Sandra suggested and will send
it out as soon as it has the flavor I'm looking for. I'm trying to strike a
level-headed tone, while making my feelings clear yet avoiding being rude.
It is HARD! We have decided to rent a van Easter weekend (hubby will be
home- yay!) and head off to Scarborough Faire for their Easter Bash. Sounds
like so much fun and I won't have to deal with the family. All around a
great deal!!! Thanks for all your comments and support!
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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anyone's response. My children are 12, 6, 5, 4, 2, 1, and 6 months. I find
it difficult to maintain peace and happiness without some sort of daily
rhythm. Our 'schedules' are not set in stone, but I came to unschooling
from a Waldorf perspective and we really enjoy the daily flow of having a
guiding rhythm. I say we because I see that my children benefit from
knowing what to expect in general. Examples would be, mealtimes, nap/quiet
times, bedtimes, etc. We don't so much have a certain time set by the
clock, but we do follow an evening ritual of baths, songs, stories, bedtime.
This may start at 6 in the evening or 8 in the evening, but we tend to
follow the same general path every night. I find when we stray from this,
if I let them do their own thing and head off to bed whenever, they are all
quite fussy and we end up with a lot of fights. (Not between the kids and I
but between the kids together.)
My oldest daughter (12) is not so much involved in this process, aside from
mealtimes, etc. After three years of listening to me rave about Harry
Potter, she stayed up all night and read the entire first book till 4 in the
morning. (She came to me today and told me she read it but wanted it to be
a surprise. She also asked for book 2, lol.) I've never said anything more
than how much I loved it but she was over my shoulder this week reading
about the video games you all have been discussing. Guess that sparked her
interest!
My question is: Is it hindering to have such a daily rhythm? If so, do you
have any suggestions in curbing the fighting and unhappiness that result
when no rhythm is involved? Perhaps, had we not been doing this for so long
it might be different, but since we have been doing it for so long, I guess
it just seems natural to them. On the rare occasion that I do hear a
compaint, such as nap/quiet time, I try to offer suggestions for things to
do, play outside (in this case they can be loud), quietly watch tv, play a
game, spend time with me cooking, reading, etc., etc. The one thing I find
I must insist on is our daily quiet time. If the older kids are loud in the
house while the boys and the baby nap, they don't sleep and end up being
extremely fussy throughout the rest of the day. I'm interested particularly
on any thoughts directly related to this situation.
For us, the situation is working. I just wonder what it looks like from an
unschooling perspective.
Warm Wishes,
Jennifer
PS. Re: Dealing with family
I decided to write my grandmother the letter Sandra suggested and will send
it out as soon as it has the flavor I'm looking for. I'm trying to strike a
level-headed tone, while making my feelings clear yet avoiding being rude.
It is HARD! We have decided to rent a van Easter weekend (hubby will be
home- yay!) and head off to Scarborough Faire for their Easter Bash. Sounds
like so much fun and I won't have to deal with the family. All around a
great deal!!! Thanks for all your comments and support!
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Lisa M. C. Bentley
> PS. Re: Dealing with familyBe forewarned that it will probably be thought of as hostile, no matter
> I decided to write my grandmother the letter Sandra suggested and will send
> it out as soon as it has the flavor I'm looking for. I'm trying to strike a
> level-headed tone, while making my feelings clear yet avoiding being rude.
what you write. I, too, wrote a really long and nice and deep letter to
my ILs when we were having the major problems with them. I got a one
line e-mail back: "Grow up!" I had really put only *I* feelings, etc.
in it and it was a wonderful wonderful letter telling them how much I
wanted them in our lives, and how and why we had come to the various
parenting decisions that we had come to. The letter made them worse.
I'm worried for you that you won't get your desired response. It hurts
a lot. Prepare yourself and I wish with everything in me that no one
has to deal with relatives that don't understand ever again.
-Lisa in Tucson, AZ
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/15/03 6:52:33 PM, jmcseals@... writes:
<< I find when we stray from this,
if I let them do their own thing and head off to bed whenever, they are all
quite fussy and we end up with a lot of fights. (Not between the kids and I
but between the kids together.) >>
The only family I know that bit lately went from seven to nine, with a set of
twins. What I've seen them do is when babies are asleep other people get
quiet. And they used to have (when they lived near enough for me to know) a
mom-and-dad bed (big enough for four or five <g>) and then a full room of
"bed"--mattresses all over the place.
I know they've ended up with a bigger house. That was a three bedroom
apartment, when they had five kids.
In the paragraph quoted up above it sounds like one thing and maybe it wasn't
what you really meant. It sounds like you're saying if anyone fails to
follow the routin, everyone will be fussy. Isn't it possible to tell the
older ones they can stay up if they can be extra aware to be kind and patient
the next day, and if they're too cranky they need to get more sleep? That's
how we made deals about letting a kid stay up really late when he was little.
"Okay, but count back from when you have to get up, and if you are too tired
tomorrow, be careful not to take it out on other people. It wasn't their
fault you stayed up."
<<The one thing I find
I must insist on is our daily quiet time. If the older kids are loud in the
house while the boys and the baby nap, they don't sleep and end up being
extremely fussy throughout the rest of the day. >>
That makes total sense to me.
Our quiet time is pretty much from 10:30 at night until noon. People can
watch TV if it's turned down low, or go in and out of the house, but they're
reminded to close the door really quietly. We try not to tell people to call
us in the morning; we call them instead.
It's not an absolute silence, it's a courtesy. After noon, if someone's
still asleep that's okay, but other don't have to be as quiet.
For a while we had a "be in bed before 5:00 a.m. and get up before noon." I
was doing that because it seemed to really bug my husband if a boy was still
up on the computer when he left for work at 5:30 a.m. (and it varies) and if
someone was asleep when he came home, sometimes at 1:30 or 2:00.
Then after about a year or more of that "rule," Marty said something about it
to Keith who said he didn't really care.
What changed was Keith saw more and more of how much the boys were learning
and how well they were getting along.
So it was gradual, even with all that.
But we only have three kids, and they're fairly closely grouped. Less than
five and a half years from #1 to #3. So my situation's too easy to compare.
<<For us, the situation is working. I just wonder what it looks like from an
unschooling perspective.>>
I think there's a point where too many rules and too much schedule is a
hindrance. When it's purely arbitrary and the child's interests and needs
aren't considered, I think that's harmful.
But all the luxury stuff about flexibility and food freedom and all that
isn't directly what is or isn't unschooling. I think it can be a by-product.
With my family, most of that came first (TV freedom, very lax bedtime, food
not regulated, no dessert-training) and that made unschooling a snap. And
some start with unschooling and pick up some oft he other stuff (or rather
let it fall). But that's not what makes or breaks unschooling.
Sandra
<< I find when we stray from this,
if I let them do their own thing and head off to bed whenever, they are all
quite fussy and we end up with a lot of fights. (Not between the kids and I
but between the kids together.) >>
The only family I know that bit lately went from seven to nine, with a set of
twins. What I've seen them do is when babies are asleep other people get
quiet. And they used to have (when they lived near enough for me to know) a
mom-and-dad bed (big enough for four or five <g>) and then a full room of
"bed"--mattresses all over the place.
I know they've ended up with a bigger house. That was a three bedroom
apartment, when they had five kids.
In the paragraph quoted up above it sounds like one thing and maybe it wasn't
what you really meant. It sounds like you're saying if anyone fails to
follow the routin, everyone will be fussy. Isn't it possible to tell the
older ones they can stay up if they can be extra aware to be kind and patient
the next day, and if they're too cranky they need to get more sleep? That's
how we made deals about letting a kid stay up really late when he was little.
"Okay, but count back from when you have to get up, and if you are too tired
tomorrow, be careful not to take it out on other people. It wasn't their
fault you stayed up."
<<The one thing I find
I must insist on is our daily quiet time. If the older kids are loud in the
house while the boys and the baby nap, they don't sleep and end up being
extremely fussy throughout the rest of the day. >>
That makes total sense to me.
Our quiet time is pretty much from 10:30 at night until noon. People can
watch TV if it's turned down low, or go in and out of the house, but they're
reminded to close the door really quietly. We try not to tell people to call
us in the morning; we call them instead.
It's not an absolute silence, it's a courtesy. After noon, if someone's
still asleep that's okay, but other don't have to be as quiet.
For a while we had a "be in bed before 5:00 a.m. and get up before noon." I
was doing that because it seemed to really bug my husband if a boy was still
up on the computer when he left for work at 5:30 a.m. (and it varies) and if
someone was asleep when he came home, sometimes at 1:30 or 2:00.
Then after about a year or more of that "rule," Marty said something about it
to Keith who said he didn't really care.
What changed was Keith saw more and more of how much the boys were learning
and how well they were getting along.
So it was gradual, even with all that.
But we only have three kids, and they're fairly closely grouped. Less than
five and a half years from #1 to #3. So my situation's too easy to compare.
<<For us, the situation is working. I just wonder what it looks like from an
unschooling perspective.>>
I think there's a point where too many rules and too much schedule is a
hindrance. When it's purely arbitrary and the child's interests and needs
aren't considered, I think that's harmful.
But all the luxury stuff about flexibility and food freedom and all that
isn't directly what is or isn't unschooling. I think it can be a by-product.
With my family, most of that came first (TV freedom, very lax bedtime, food
not regulated, no dessert-training) and that made unschooling a snap. And
some start with unschooling and pick up some oft he other stuff (or rather
let it fall). But that's not what makes or breaks unschooling.
Sandra
sevenhavei
> I'm worried for you that you won't get your desired response. Ithurts
> a lot. Prepare yourself and I wish with everything in me that noone
> has to deal with relatives that don't understand ever again.Ouch. You know, it didn't really cross my mind that I was looking
for a specific response, but, you know, I AM! I really though I was
looking at this as something for HER. Something to do to get it off
my chest. Maybe that sounds the same. Put this way, the way you
wrote it, it sounds completely different to me. It is so hard to
know what approach to use.
I now recall a time when we had a disagreement over something
regarding my oldest daughter (don't even recall the specifics now,
something to do with homeschooling, but..)and I told her that these
were MY decisions to make and that I was doing what I thought was
best for my daughter and for my family. Her response was that they
are NOT my decisions. That I'm hurting my children every day. It
went on and on. In front of the kids. It seems like it was only
days after the birth of my last baby, I'm honestly not sure,
though. She just jumped up and left, slamming the door behind her.
The kids were all mad at ME because they were supposed to go to her
house that day.
Now that I think about all this, I see where my hesitation comes
in. When I started this thread, I was trying to include everything
needed for background type info but didn't even remember all this.
I often feel as though I'm stuck in the middle. Only in the past
year or two has my oldest daughter realized what really goes on
between us. (Gm and me.) But the little ones see ME as being the
bad guy.
She called today and talked to my 6 yr old, (I was in the shower at
the time) to invite us over for Easter dinner. Nic told her we were
going to have fun that day and told her of our plans. For me, right
now, it is easier to have an alternative to seeing her as an excuse
not to go over. They just don't see the problems that are there and
I usually end up with the bad rap in the end because of it. I just
hope I come to a place of comfort in this soon, as we are heading
into birthday alley (all the kids birthdays start one after another
until Sept.)and I dread how we will handle the invitation list to
the parties if I can't get through to my grandmother before that
time comes. I could even deal with an agree to disagree type of
situation but slapping my child's hand is not something I can agree
to disagree with. We shall see....
Thanks again for your comments. It is wonderful to have other ideas
to pour over while dealing with this. It might not be so bad if I
actually thought it would all work out, but my fear is that nothing
will ever change and I will be forced to choose excluding her from
our lives for the kids safety and my sanity. You'd think it would
be a simple matter, but emotionally, for me, it is rocking me to the
core.
Jennifer
coyote's corner
Hi,
Where is Scarborough Faire??
Janis
Where is Scarborough Faire??
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: jmcseals SEALS
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 8:48 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] daily rituals and unschooling *and* a ps on dealing with family
My question is mostly geared towards larger families, but I'd love to hear
anyone's response. My children are 12, 6, 5, 4, 2, 1, and 6 months. I find
it difficult to maintain peace and happiness without some sort of daily
rhythm. Our 'schedules' are not set in stone, but I came to unschooling
from a Waldorf perspective and we really enjoy the daily flow of having a
guiding rhythm. I say we because I see that my children benefit from
knowing what to expect in general. Examples would be, mealtimes, nap/quiet
times, bedtimes, etc. We don't so much have a certain time set by the
clock, but we do follow an evening ritual of baths, songs, stories, bedtime.
This may start at 6 in the evening or 8 in the evening, but we tend to
follow the same general path every night. I find when we stray from this,
if I let them do their own thing and head off to bed whenever, they are all
quite fussy and we end up with a lot of fights. (Not between the kids and I
but between the kids together.)
My oldest daughter (12) is not so much involved in this process, aside from
mealtimes, etc. After three years of listening to me rave about Harry
Potter, she stayed up all night and read the entire first book till 4 in the
morning. (She came to me today and told me she read it but wanted it to be
a surprise. She also asked for book 2, lol.) I've never said anything more
than how much I loved it but she was over my shoulder this week reading
about the video games you all have been discussing. Guess that sparked her
interest!
My question is: Is it hindering to have such a daily rhythm? If so, do you
have any suggestions in curbing the fighting and unhappiness that result
when no rhythm is involved? Perhaps, had we not been doing this for so long
it might be different, but since we have been doing it for so long, I guess
it just seems natural to them. On the rare occasion that I do hear a
compaint, such as nap/quiet time, I try to offer suggestions for things to
do, play outside (in this case they can be loud), quietly watch tv, play a
game, spend time with me cooking, reading, etc., etc. The one thing I find
I must insist on is our daily quiet time. If the older kids are loud in the
house while the boys and the baby nap, they don't sleep and end up being
extremely fussy throughout the rest of the day. I'm interested particularly
on any thoughts directly related to this situation.
For us, the situation is working. I just wonder what it looks like from an
unschooling perspective.
Warm Wishes,
Jennifer
PS. Re: Dealing with family
I decided to write my grandmother the letter Sandra suggested and will send
it out as soon as it has the flavor I'm looking for. I'm trying to strike a
level-headed tone, while making my feelings clear yet avoiding being rude.
It is HARD! We have decided to rent a van Easter weekend (hubby will be
home- yay!) and head off to Scarborough Faire for their Easter Bash. Sounds
like so much fun and I won't have to deal with the family. All around a
great deal!!! Thanks for all your comments and support!
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/03 2:16:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jmcseals@...
writes:
children over there again. I agree with that. How old are your children? In
your last post you sounded almost like the children are not affected by the
unschooling/homeschooling comments as much as you are. Like they were upset
with you for "spoiling the fun with grandma" so to speak. I don't remember
how old they are but maybe if you addressed the hitting issue with her and
talked with them about if they want you to address the homeschooling issue or
not. Maybe they are willing to put up with a few off the wall comments to
spend time with her. As long as they know they have a safe place to come
vent.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> . I could even deal with an agree to disagree type ofI think the slapping is something you need to address before you take your
> situation but slapping my child's hand is not something I can agree
> to disagree with. We shall see....
>
>
children over there again. I agree with that. How old are your children? In
your last post you sounded almost like the children are not affected by the
unschooling/homeschooling comments as much as you are. Like they were upset
with you for "spoiling the fun with grandma" so to speak. I don't remember
how old they are but maybe if you addressed the hitting issue with her and
talked with them about if they want you to address the homeschooling issue or
not. Maybe they are willing to put up with a few off the wall comments to
spend time with her. As long as they know they have a safe place to come
vent.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/15/03 10:52:11 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< The only family I know that bit lately went from seven to nine, with a set
of
twins. >>
Not "that bit."
I meant to write "that big."
YIKES! They really didn't bite.
<< The only family I know that BIG lately went from seven to nine, with a set
of
twins. >>
I'm sorry.
<< The only family I know that bit lately went from seven to nine, with a set
of
twins. >>
Not "that bit."
I meant to write "that big."
YIKES! They really didn't bite.
<< The only family I know that BIG lately went from seven to nine, with a set
of
twins. >>
I'm sorry.
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/16/03 12:16:08 AM, jmcseals@... writes:
<< Ouch. You know, it didn't really cross my mind that I was looking
for a specific response, but, you know, I AM! I really though I was
looking at this as something for HER. Something to do to get it off
my chest. >>
I think you're setting up a boundary fence, and whether she responds well or
not, if she will just stay on her side of the boundary, you've accomplished
something important.
Sandra
<< Ouch. You know, it didn't really cross my mind that I was looking
for a specific response, but, you know, I AM! I really though I was
looking at this as something for HER. Something to do to get it off
my chest. >>
I think you're setting up a boundary fence, and whether she responds well or
not, if she will just stay on her side of the boundary, you've accomplished
something important.
Sandra
sevenhavei
How old are your children? In
right! They do get upset with me for 'spoiling the fun". That is
exactly what I was trying to say. My 12 year old does understand
the homeschooling/unschooling comments and takes them in stride.
She believes what we are doing is best for her, so she doesn't pay
much attention to what my grandmother says, unless she has a
wuestion for me about it, which we talk through together.
The other kids (really only my 6 yr old) are only affected by her
comments of how much fun it would be to go to ps. Those issues are
easily dealt with. Ususally though, they really don't pay much
attention to the comments, so they end up upset with me when
something bad happens...like gramma leaving in a huff or them not
being able to go to her house. I do my best to explain to them when
something bad happens between my grandmother and me but it is
difficult for thm to understand why they can't go over there
anyway. This sounds bad, but thankfully, she hasn't wanted to
invite them over because her dog had surgery, so lately it hasn't
been too much of an issue. Also, in this sense, it actually helps
to not have a car! There's just not much of a choice as to whether
or not we get to go over there. Hope that makes sense.
Jennifer
> your last post you sounded almost like the children are notaffected by the
> unschooling/homeschooling comments as much as you are. Like theywere upset
> with you for "spoiling the fun with grandma" so to speak.They are 12, 6, 5, 4, 2, 1, and 6 months. You are absolutely
right! They do get upset with me for 'spoiling the fun". That is
exactly what I was trying to say. My 12 year old does understand
the homeschooling/unschooling comments and takes them in stride.
She believes what we are doing is best for her, so she doesn't pay
much attention to what my grandmother says, unless she has a
wuestion for me about it, which we talk through together.
The other kids (really only my 6 yr old) are only affected by her
comments of how much fun it would be to go to ps. Those issues are
easily dealt with. Ususally though, they really don't pay much
attention to the comments, so they end up upset with me when
something bad happens...like gramma leaving in a huff or them not
being able to go to her house. I do my best to explain to them when
something bad happens between my grandmother and me but it is
difficult for thm to understand why they can't go over there
anyway. This sounds bad, but thankfully, she hasn't wanted to
invite them over because her dog had surgery, so lately it hasn't
been too much of an issue. Also, in this sense, it actually helps
to not have a car! There's just not much of a choice as to whether
or not we get to go over there. Hope that makes sense.
Jennifer
sevenhavei
>with a set
> Not "that bit."
> I meant to write "that big."
> YIKES! They really didn't bite.
>
> << The only family I know that BIG lately went from seven to nine,
> ofROFL!! That is so funny! I had to re-read that sentence about a
> twins. >>
>
> I'm sorry.
million times and it still didn't quite click for me. I've had a
biting problem with my boys lately and was wondering if I had posted
about it without realizing it. I was just so confused! Thanks for
clarifying!
Laughing,
Jennifer