[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/03 1:29:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<<
Are there more than two volumes of that yet? We have the first two, but
they only go through Roman times (I think). >>

I just picked vol. 1-7 (in one book) up on ebay for eight bucks, including
shipping!! Way cool.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

Tia Leschke

> <<
> Are there more than two volumes of that yet? We have the first two, but
> they only go through Roman times (I think). >>
>
> I just picked vol. 1-7 (in one book) up on ebay for eight bucks, including
> shipping!! Way cool.
>

Actually, that's only the first book. It goes from the big bang to
Alexander the Great, right? I have the second book that goes up to about
Roman times. Now I find there's at least one more. Yay!
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/03 10:29:30 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

"Are these put out by a secular or Christian company?"

It's not Christian, that's for sure. It starts with the Big Bang theory!! :)
Mine was shipped today! Yipppeeeee

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

Amy Alexander

I have been trying unschooling with my two boys, well
mostly with the oldest child. How is age 5, the other
is 2 about to turn 3. I have been doing it for a
couple of months now. Even before I knew what
unschooling was, I was basically doing it. My kids
have always been well behaved and have listened to me.
I stopped doing the kindergarden curriculum with my
oldest when it became a struggle to get him to do it.
Today I took them to a ball game with some friends.
And they behaved awfully. They wouldn't listen to me,
they cried when they didn't get their way, they fought
with each other, they whined , and they complained.
They totally went around as if they could do what ever
they wanted. And I think it was because I had been
letting them do what they wanted. Well they got the
game boy and the play station taken away for this and
I told them that things were going to go back to the
way they were. I am not a total ogre, I do tons of
fun activities with my kids. But I will not have
spoiled brats running around my house. I am going to
start back with the home schooling on the 5 year old
also. And I will be unsubscribing to this list. It
sounded like a good idea, but in reality it just
doesn't work for me.
Amy


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/03 11:15:18 PM, aka_53208@... writes:

<< Well they got the
game boy and the play station taken away for this and
I told them that things were going to go back to the
way they were. I am not a total ogre, >>

Don't blame us because you're not figuring out a good way to deal with little
boys. They were probably happily excited. It was a BALLgame, not church.

And at five and three, what's the difference if you're "unschooling" or not?
Most kids aren't even in school when they turn five.

Those aren't unschooling problems, they're parenting problems. I bet your
kids were hungry, not "spoiled."

Sometime when you feel like thinking about how kids deal with privilege, read
these:

http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
http://sandradodd.com/respect

We had another family here today for six hours. A mom and two little boys
(10, 9), until the husband came from work to get them. The mom has been
going to meetings and various things, Harry Potter tournaments, where some or
all my three kids (16, 14, 11) have been, along with other, various kinds of
homeschoolers. She's going to switch from doing any school at home to
unschooling because she's so impressed with my kids' knowledge and behavior.
We talked for most of those six hours.

<<And I will be unsubscribing to this list. It
sounded like a good idea, but in reality it just
doesn't work for me.>>

Hard to tell on such a short trial. I hope some of the ideas stick with you,
though, and that your boys aren't always having to "act" to earn privileges
like playing games. You cut off your nose to spite your face that way.

Sandra

averyschmidt

> Today I took them to a ball game with some friends.
> And they behaved awfully. They wouldn't listen to me,
> they cried when they didn't get their way, they fought
> with each other, they whined , and they complained.

Aren't they five and two? That's the way many kids that age are
under certain circumstances... even kids who go to school and have
no freedom. I had days like that when my oldest was five, and he
went to preschool. What you're describing has nothing to do with
unschooling and probably has something to do with overstimulation,
tiredness, hunger, etc.

> They totally went around as if they could do what ever
> they wanted. And I think it was because I had been
> letting them do what they wanted.

I think that when you're new to unschooling it can seem
like "letting them do whatever they want," especially if you're
coming from an authoritarian upbringing yourself. But I don't see
it that way at all. I want my kids to be able to live in the world,
and I want other people to like them and enjoy having them around.
They are free to do what they want, but they are *not* free to step
on anyone else's toes or be rude in the process. I think you're
doing your kids a disservice by "letting them do whatever they want"
without any input or guidance, and I also think that you're doing
unschooling a disservice by calling it unschooling.

I don't know what to tell you about the fighting with each other
part... that's always been one of my biggest problems, but it has
more to do with my children's personalities and our family dynamics
than anything else. I can tell you that I do know plenty of other
families whose children bicker a lot even though they go to school
(or do school at home). I can't see how "home schooling on the 5
year old" (do you realize how that sounds?) will solve your problems.

Patti

coyote's corner

Hi,
I strongly urge you to stay with this list. Listen. Read. Take unschooling step by step. One step at a time. Your children are going to cry, laugh, whine, hunger, thirst, be impatient, be loving, be wonderful, be kids. Unschooling doesn't "make " kids more manageable. It's not about that at all. School is more about that. That's one of the reasons it's not about learning - it's about creating controlled consumers.
I've raised two kids (they're 28 & 30) traditionally. I've a ten y.o. now and we're iunschooling. Whew -the difference is amazing! I can't begin to tell you how close we are, how much fun we have!1
I'll tell you something else - Brianna is well read, articulate and well, most people do not believe she's only 10!! A big reason is because of how she learns and how we live. We're relatively new at this and it can be scary - please, seriously - hang in there!

Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: treegoddess@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:12 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling problems


>
>
>From: Amy Alexander <aka_53208@...>
>[Today I took them to a ball game with some friends. And they behaved awfully. They wouldn't listen to me, they cried when they didn't get their way, they fought with each other, they whined , and they complained.]
>
That's called being 5 and 3 years old. LOL

>[They totally went around as if they could do what ever they wanted. And I think it was because I had been letting them do what they wanted.]
>
And you've never ever seen other kids behave this way who are schooled
at home or in public school? C'mon.

>[I will not have spoiled brats running around my house. I am going to start back with the home schooling on the 5 year old also. And I will be unsubscribing to this list.]
>
That's too bad because their behavior had nothing to do with
unschooling. The little ones were just being kids at a ballgame and if
they were "acting up" they were probably tired, hungry, or just excited.

TreeGoddess


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/15/03 1:15:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aka_53208@... writes:

> Today I took them to a ball game with some friends.
> And they behaved awfully.

Did you try talking to them about why? Maybe they didn't want to be at the
ball game. Maybe there would have been something better they were interested
in. If this is new their communication skills might not be as good. Maybe
they didn't know how to tell you what they wanted. I have always unschooled
but many say it does take time. Maybe they were testing you to see if it was
really true or if it was a conditional, limited thing. It takes time to get
it and have it work int eh family. It takes lots of communication on both
ends.

Hope you haven't unsubbed yet, I bet there are lots that others could offer.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

coyote's corner

Can you tell I'm losing sleep?? Look at those typos!
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: coyote's corner
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling problems


Hi,
I strongly urge you to stay with this list. Listen. Read. Take unschooling step by step. One step at a time. Your children are going to cry, laugh, whine, hunger, thirst, be impatient, be loving, be wonderful, be kids. Unschooling doesn't "make " kids more manageable. It's not about that at all. School is more about that. That's one of the reasons it's not about learning - it's about creating controlled consumers.
I've raised two kids (they're 28 & 30) traditionally. I've a ten y.o. now and we're iunschooling. Whew -the difference is amazing! I can't begin to tell you how close we are, how much fun we have!1
I'll tell you something else - Brianna is well read, articulate and well, most people do not believe she's only 10!! A big reason is because of how she learns and how we live. We're relatively new at this and it can be scary - please, seriously - hang in there!

Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: treegoddess@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:12 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling problems


>
>
>From: Amy Alexander <aka_53208@...>
>[Today I took them to a ball game with some friends. And they behaved awfully. They wouldn't listen to me, they cried when they didn't get their way, they fought with each other, they whined , and they complained.]
>
That's called being 5 and 3 years old. LOL

>[They totally went around as if they could do what ever they wanted. And I think it was because I had been letting them do what they wanted.]
>
And you've never ever seen other kids behave this way who are schooled
at home or in public school? C'mon.

>[I will not have spoiled brats running around my house. I am going to start back with the home schooling on the 5 year old also. And I will be unsubscribing to this list.]
>
That's too bad because their behavior had nothing to do with
unschooling. The little ones were just being kids at a ballgame and if
they were "acting up" they were probably tired, hungry, or just excited.

TreeGoddess


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

I got a feel about the post from the woman not wanting to unschool anymore.
It sounded very much to me like she was accustomed to her children
"obeying:" her. Once she eased up, who knows how she actually unschooled,
the children lost some of the fear they had. I mean isn't that why children
really "obey" to begin with? They're scared of what will happen if they
don't. I didn't see it as an unschooling issue.

Mary B

Tia Leschke

> I got a feel about the post from the woman not wanting to unschool
anymore.
> It sounded very much to me like she was accustomed to her children
> "obeying:" her. Once she eased up, who knows how she actually unschooled,
> the children lost some of the fear they had. I mean isn't that why
children
> really "obey" to begin with? They're scared of what will happen if they
> don't. I didn't see it as an unschooling issue.

I didn't either. Maybe she didn't really want to unschool and this can
be the "reason".
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
saftety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/15/03 8:53:12 AM, jana@... writes:

<< I'll tell you something else - Brianna is well read, articulate and well,
most people do not believe she's only 10!! >>

Marty had been playing a big, complicated online role playing game for a year
or so. It all has to do with writing on AOL instant messages and in chat
rooms set up as different areas of that "world," and using online dice, and
reporting wins/losses, and making alliances and earning promotions. Marty
used to yell out "How do you spell 'either'?" or "How do you spell 'their'
like 'it's their turn'?" And one of us would yell it back to him.

One night he was playing when everyone else was asleep and he had no help.
One of the adults in the game got grumpy and responded "You write like a ten
year old."

Marty's simple response was

"I AM ten."

They could not have guessed it by the level of his playing. He was doing
fine, except for that spelling thing.

Sometimes he would put "the voice" on for the computer to read him what the
others had written, because he wasn't reading so well yet, but he could
certainly handle the strategy and rules and procedures of the game fine. <g>

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/15/2003 11:11:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, SandraDodd writes:

> Marty's simple response was
>
> "I AM ten."

Now THAT'S funny! Way to go.

coyote's corner

Isn't it wonderful??
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] unschooling problems



In a message dated 4/15/03 8:53:12 AM, jana@... writes:

<< I'll tell you something else - Brianna is well read, articulate and well,
most people do not believe she's only 10!! >>

Marty had been playing a big, complicated online role playing game for a year
or so. It all has to do with writing on AOL instant messages and in chat
rooms set up as different areas of that "world," and using online dice, and
reporting wins/losses, and making alliances and earning promotions. Marty
used to yell out "How do you spell 'either'?" or "How do you spell 'their'
like 'it's their turn'?" And one of us would yell it back to him.

One night he was playing when everyone else was asleep and he had no help.
One of the adults in the game got grumpy and responded "You write like a ten
year old."

Marty's simple response was

"I AM ten."

They could not have guessed it by the level of his playing. He was doing
fine, except for that spelling thing.

Sometimes he would put "the voice" on for the computer to read him what the
others had written, because he wasn't reading so well yet, but he could
certainly handle the strategy and rules and procedures of the game fine. <g>

Sandra

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma2kids

>> I am going to start back with the home schooling on the 5 year old
also. And I will be unsubscribing to this list. It sounded like a
good idea, but in reality it just doesn't work for me.>>

Too bad. It sounds like you just had a bad day. I'm not sure how that
translates into a failure of unschooling. All kids have bad days.
Maybe they were tired, hungry, over excited, hot, thirsty, etc.

It's not the unschooling, it's the *situation*.

Life is good.
~Mary

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."

~ Thich Nhat Hanh

Stephanie Elms

Hi Amy. My boys are 6 and 3. We have slowly been adopting more of an unschooling lifestyle
(never did "school" so that has been the easiest, letting go of other restrictions (tv and
food) have been more of a challenge for me but getting easier every day). What I have found
is that unschooling has not led directly to perfectly behaved kids but it has led to me being
a much more creative mom.

It has been an ongoing process...at first I would run into situations for which I could not find
an "unschooling" (i.e., solution that was respectful to my boys that did not include
punishments etc) solution. But then I would think about it more (I started thinking WWJD...
what would Joyce do ;o) ) and lo and behold I would come up with several other options.
After the fact of course, but the more I did this, the easier it was to come up with
solutions when I needed them.

Many times it would have been very easy to say, well, I tried, but it did not work. But I
am glad that I kept thinking and looking. I have found that my attitude has shifted lately.
What I used to see as problems I now see as things that I need to find a different approach.
And I feel confident that I will find one. For example, a friend watched the boys for me
yesterday morning. She made them cinnamon toast with pepperidge farm cinnamon bread. Jason
had never had it and loved it. Had several pieces while I was gone and asked for more
when I got back. He very well could have eaten the whole loaf and if we were home I would
have let him. I did tell him at one point that we needed to save some bread for them
and that it was not polite to eat all of someone else's food. I also told him that we could
pick up some on the way home. He was not really happy and whined a little. I could easily
say that letting him eat what he wants is a complete failure and it led to him being
a greedy ungracious guest in someone's home. But that really is not the case. All that means
is that we need to talk a bit more (at home when we are not in the middle of it) about
how we would not like it if someone came and ate all of our food and to keep that in mind.
But I trust that he will get it with time and practice. Maybe that is the biggest change
I have found since adopting unschooling parenting practices (not sure what else to call them)
I really do trust that my kids will want to do what is right. They are good kids and I do
not see it as my job to *make* them behave...it is my job to help guide them and trust that
they will learn what they need to learn...including not only academics but life lessons
as well.

I really do hope that you do not scrap everything based on this one incident. You said yourself
that making him do lessons was not working. Keep reading here and keep looking for better
ways to handle situations. Post about a specific incident and see if others can come up
with some ideas. I know that I have been amazed at what solutions I have been able to
work out with the boys just by being open and looking for solutions other then putting
my foot down or telling them what to do. There have been times when I have just told them
that I had no idea what to do but that what we were doing was not working! That in itself
has given us a breather and some space to work it out. It can be very difficult
at times, but I have found that it is getting easier.

And it is worth it. It has not created kids who always go along with what I want or kids
who don't complain or who always do what I tell them to do. But I am starting to see that
they see that I am on their side. They still want what they want and I am still not
*always* able to give it to them. But I think they are also seeing that I will try my
best to help them get what they want. That I do not want to stand in their way. And that
has helped our relationship immensely (and I thought that we had a pretty good one to
start with!).

Stephanie E.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/16/2003 1:02:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
stephanie.elms@... writes:


>
> Hi Amy. My boys are 6 and 3. We have slowly been adopting more of an
> unschooling lifestyle
> (never did "school" so that has been the easiest, letting go of other
> restrictions (tv and
> food) have been more of a challenge for me but getting easier every day).
> What I have found
> is that unschooling has not led directly to perfectly behaved kids but it
> has led to me being
> a much more creative mom.

Really nice post, Stephanie---all of it.

Peaceful homes. Peaceful chidren. Peaceful parents. Sweet.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]