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In a message dated 4/11/2003 3:59:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
genant2@... writes:

> We have a saying around here that I hope carries them through their life.
> "No means No."

So does "Stop!"

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< > We have a saying around here that I hope carries them through their
life.
> "No means No."

So does "Stop!" >>

I'm guessing, but could be wrong, that the moms who wrote this were thinking
of the rights of other kids to say "no" or "stop"

rather than what some newer to unschooling might think if they read it, which
(MIGHT) be that the moms don't allow their children to question a "no" from a
mom.

I could be wrong.

Sandra

sablehs

That was how I understood it. And as Pam was saying about it continuing in to adulthood to mean, if they were doing something to someone that that person didn't feel confortable with, No or Stop would mean exactly that. A way of honoring another persons bounderies. At least that was how I understood it.But as usual email isn't the best way to communicate so I could be wrong. But this is something I do want my children to understand. And i want them to understand that people should honor their bounderies. Tracy

SandraDodd@... wrote:

<< > We have a saying around here that I hope carries them through their
life.
> "No means No."

So does "Stop!" >>

I'm guessing, but could be wrong, that the moms who wrote this were thinking
of the rights of other kids to say "no" or "stop"

rather than what some newer to unschooling might think if they read it, which
(MIGHT) be that the moms don't allow their children to question a "no" from a
mom.

I could be wrong.

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/11/2003 4:22:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I'm guessing, but could be wrong, that the moms who wrote this were thinking
>
> of the rights of other kids to say "no" or "stop"
> rather than what some newer to unschooling might think if they read it,
> which
> (MIGHT) be that the moms don't allow their children to question a "no" from
> a
> mom

Ooops. Yep. We hardly ever tell the boys "no". What *I* meant was when
someone's being tickled or teased, they can always say NO! or STOP! and they
will be left alone IMMEDIATELY.

Pam and I both have only boys. I think it's particularly important that THEY
understand that "no means no"---especially when dating. I knew many a boy who
really didn't understand I was serious. They may eventually stop, but the
trust has been worn a bit thin. Best that they get it right away!

Thanks for clarifying!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/11/03 4:27:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> I'm guessing, but could be wrong, that the moms who wrote this were thinking
>
> of the rights of other kids to say "no" or "stop"
>
>

Yes, I wrote it in response to someone saying that they never tickle hard or
hardly ever and never use the hose unless asked or something to that effect.
When someone says no to tickles or kisses or hugs even, that is the end of
it. No means No.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/11/03 5:08:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> Pam and I both have only boys. I think it's particularly important that THEY
>
> understand that "no means no"---especially when dating. I knew many a boy
> who
> really didn't understand I was serious. They may eventually stop, but the
> trust has been worn a bit thin. Best that they get it right away!
>
>

Exactly the scenarios I was thinking of as well. I want my boys to be
respectful of other people and their boundaries.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

So, as a parent, how do you enforce the rule that no means no and
stop means stop? If you have two children, and child 1 keeps
throwing wooden blocks at child two, child one hides under a table to
keep from getting hit with the blocks, screaming, "Stop throwing the
blocks at me" and child 1 won't stop. Then what?

I know some have said in the past that you should remove the child
who's being hurt. However, I have done that and sometimes feel like
I'm just a shield, and sometimes not an effective one. I have been
holding a hurt child only to have the other child come and try to hit
them on the leg or pull their hair while I'm not looking. WHILE I'm
holding them. Do you go somewhere and lock the door until he stops
banging on it and decides to calm down?

Is there ever a time that you're firm with your kids and say, "NO!
You will NOT keep hurting your sister, and then physically remove the
child from the situation? If you tell them he has to go to his room
if he has to throw things but that he can't throw things at his
sister but he refuses to go to his room, do you physically put him
there? If he leaves, do you keep putting him back in?

Just wondering how others handle those situations.

Sheila


> Ooops. Yep. We hardly ever tell the boys "no". What *I* meant was
when
> someone's being tickled or teased, they can always say NO! or STOP!
and they
> will be left alone IMMEDIATELY.
>
> Pam and I both have only boys. I think it's particularly important
that THEY
> understand that "no means no"---especially when dating. I knew many
a boy who
> really didn't understand I was serious. They may eventually stop,
but the
> trust has been worn a bit thin. Best that they get it right away!
>
> Thanks for clarifying!
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/11/03 9:28:25 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< I know some have said in the past that you should remove the child

who's being hurt. However, I have done that and sometimes feel like

I'm just a shield, >>

"Just" a shield?
The child needed a shield.

<<Is there ever a time that you're firm with your kids and say, "NO!

You will NOT keep hurting your sister,>>

Every time.

<< If you tell them he has to go to his room

if he has to throw things but that he can't throw things at his

sister but he refuses to go to his room, do you physically put him

there? If he leaves, do you keep putting him back in? >>

He doesn't need to be in his room, he needs to talk to you, after the other
kid's in a safe place.

Probably he needs food and attention, not isolation/punishment.

But what led up to the incident?

The other kid might have provoked it. It's possible.

It's not fair to the kids for the mom only to look at the final phase without
finding out what steps the kids too earlier to make things better or worse.

Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

On Friday, April 11, 2003, at 08:26 PM, kayb85 wrote:

>
> So, as a parent, how do you enforce the rule that no means no and
> stop means stop? If you have two children, and child 1 keeps
> throwing wooden blocks at child two, child one hides under a table to
> keep from getting hit with the blocks, screaming, "Stop throwing the
> blocks at me" and child 1 won't stop. Then what?
>
> I know some have said in the past that you should remove the child
> who's being hurt. However, I have done that and sometimes feel like
> I'm just a shield, and sometimes not an effective one. I have been
> holding a hurt child only to have the other child come and try to hit
> them on the leg or pull their hair while I'm not looking. WHILE I'm
> holding them. Do you go somewhere and lock the door until he stops
> banging on it and decides to calm down?
>

Of course.

> Is there ever a time that you're firm with your kids and say, "NO!
> You will NOT keep hurting your sister, and then physically remove the
> child from the situation?

Of course.

> If you tell them he has to go to his room

To calm down enough to be able to talk about what was going on, of
course. (Not as a punishment, the child would come out when ready and
if it takes TOO long and I think they might really be in there feeling
awful about what happened, I go in and hug them and maybe they cry a
little and then we talk.

> if he has to throw things but that he can't throw things at his
> sister but he refuses to go to his room, do you physically put him
> there? If he leaves, do you keep putting him back in?

Keep him safe and her safe - however you have to - so that he can be
calm enough to talk it out.

If you can figure out what this is about (assuming this is behavior
that happens a lot - not an isolated unusual incident) then you can
deal with the underlying issues - not with the particular incident.

Read "Siblings Without Rivalry." You'll like it - it'll give you lots
of ideas.

I know somebody who also has three daughters. Once she said to me,
accusingly, "Your daughter said that none of your three girls have ever
hit each other." I said, "Hmmm - I think they did a time or two when
the oldest were about 6 and 3." She didn't believe me. She wanted to
know what i did to punish them when they fought. John Rosemond whose
advice shouldn't be listened to does have one really good bit - he
says: "Strike while the iron is cold." This means that responding to
problems after-the-fact is tough - but if you plan ahead, don't wait
until the "iron is hot" - the things you do when there are no problems
can help prevent problems from occurring.

-pam

>
> Just wondering how others handle those situations.
>
> Sheila
>
>
>> Ooops. Yep. We hardly ever tell the boys "no". What *I* meant was
> when
>> someone's being tickled or teased, they can always say NO! or STOP!
> and they
>> will be left alone IMMEDIATELY.
>>
>> Pam and I both have only boys. I think it's particularly important
> that THEY
>> understand that "no means no"---especially when dating. I knew many
> a boy who
>> really didn't understand I was serious. They may eventually stop,
> but the
>> trust has been worn a bit thin. Best that they get it right away!
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying!
>>
>> ~Kelly
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
>

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In a message dated 4/11/03 11:28:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:

> So, as a parent, how do you enforce the rule that no means no and
> stop means stop? If you have two children, and child 1 keeps
> throwing wooden blocks at child two, child one hides under a table to
> keep from getting hit with the blocks, screaming, "Stop throwing the
> blocks at me" and child 1 won't stop. Then what?
>
>

I have never really had anything escalate that far. Usually the younger one
will give a quick swat at his brother, or sometimes he thinks it is in fun
but the older one doesn't. I usually hold the one being hurt and say that we
never leave anyone feeling hurt or sad. We have to be there as a family for
each other. I usually repeat that No means No. If Dallen thought is was
funny he would be laughing. I say something like would you come over hear and
help me to help Dallen feel better. I try to get the hurt one to express
their feelings and try to get the one doing the hurting to talk about how
they were feeling. Usually he comes over but if he doesn't that is OK. I
will say something like why don't you go find a nice book for the three of us
to read together.

Like I said it rarely gets that far I can usually see an argument in the
making and I step in to try to help them resolve the conflict in a more
appropriate manner. What seems to be the problem and let each boy state what
they think is going on. "What can we do about it" and give each child a
chance to brain storm possible solutions and I will suggest some. It usually
takes some time but we can come to a compromise so that each one gets some of
what they want. I try my hardest because I think problem solving is a skill
that takes practice. I really liked the book "Raising a Thinking Child" at
least I think that is the title. Haven't read it for a while.
Anyway just some random thoughts. Real tired so they may be real random.
LOL
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

> Read "Siblings Without Rivalry." You'll like it - it'll give you
lots
> of ideas.

I have the book. It's a good book and I learned some things from
it. However, I found myself constantly wanting to add cartoon
squares after their last squares. They would end by having the
parents say, "You were really frustrated by that, weren't you" and
the child would say, "Yeah" and the conflict would be magically
ended. I wanted to add the next square which would be, "Yeah, I was
frustrated because I hate her and now I'm going to go hit her!" ;)



> I know somebody who also has three daughters. Once she said to me,
> accusingly, "Your daughter said that none of your three girls have
ever
> hit each other." I said, "Hmmm - I think they did a time or two
when
> the oldest were about 6 and 3." She didn't believe me. She wanted
to
> know what i did to punish them when they fought.

That makes me wish I had known about unschooling.com and peaceful
parenting resources other than James Dobson when my kids were
younger!

John Rosemond whose
> advice shouldn't be listened to does have one really good bit - he
> says: "Strike while the iron is cold." This means that responding
to
> problems after-the-fact is tough - but if you plan ahead, don't
wait
> until the "iron is hot" - the things you do when there are no
problems
> can help prevent problems from occurring.

Hmmmm....I'll have to work harder on that. Thanks!

Sheila

kayb85

> Read "Siblings Without Rivalry." You'll like it - it'll give you
lots
> of ideas.

I have the book. It's a good book and I learned some things from
it. However, I found myself constantly wanting to add cartoon
squares after their last squares. They would end by having the
parents say, "You were really frustrated by that, weren't you" and
the child would say, "Yeah" and the conflict would be magically
ended. I wanted to add the next square which would be, "Yeah, I was
frustrated because I hate her and now I'm going to go hit her!" ;)



> I know somebody who also has three daughters. Once she said to me,
> accusingly, "Your daughter said that none of your three girls have
ever
> hit each other." I said, "Hmmm - I think they did a time or two
when
> the oldest were about 6 and 3." She didn't believe me. She wanted
to
> know what i did to punish them when they fought.

That makes me wish I had known about unschooling.com and peaceful
parenting resources other than James Dobson when my kids were
younger!

John Rosemond whose
> advice shouldn't be listened to does have one really good bit - he
> says: "Strike while the iron is cold." This means that responding
to
> problems after-the-fact is tough - but if you plan ahead, don't
wait
> until the "iron is hot" - the things you do when there are no
problems
> can help prevent problems from occurring.

Hmmmm....I'll have to work harder on that. Thanks!

Sheila

Pamela Sorooshian

On Friday, April 11, 2003, at 09:11 PM, kayb85 wrote:

> They would end by having the
> parents say, "You were really frustrated by that, weren't you" and
> the child would say, "Yeah" and the conflict would be magically
> ended. I wanted to add the next square which would be, "Yeah, I was
> frustrated because I hate her and now I'm going to go hit her!" ;)

Well - it has been a long time since I dealt with these issues and I
haven't read the book in years, but I always assumed that those things
would happen and you'd just keep at it. Persevere.

The expectation that someone would be able to say these things and then
the kid would go "Oh yeah" is unrealistic.

What you're doing is building up credit - it takes a while. You get
credit for listening, for commenting appropriately, for being loving
when he's not, for having good instincts about when to hug and when to
give space.

It isn't a magic pill - to use these ideas. It doesn't work
instantaneously. At least not usually - although sometimes it does seem
like a miracle cure at first.

A couple of weeks ago, at our park day, a little girl came, crying, to
her mom. Her brother was being mean, she said. In their pretend play,
she was his dog and she wanted to be named one thing and he said that
was a stupid name and told her she was named something else. Her mom
held her and hugged her while she cried and cried. She'd gulp and
breathe and recover a little and look at her mom and say, "Its not fair
I WANT to be Penny and he won't LET me." And then cry some more. Mom
patted her back gently. She'd comment just a little, once in a while -
"You REALLY want to be Penny, huh." Stuff like that. At one point mom
kind of repeated something the girl had been saying, "He called the
name you want to be stupid," The girl's crying got MUCh bigger and she
said, "He always thinks my ideas are stupid because he's older and he
thinks my ideas are for babies and.....on and on in a rush of
resentment and upset all against her brother." Mom NEVER argued with
her. Just hugged her while she got it ALL out. Said things once in a
while like, "Oh," or other equally sympathetic, but noncommittal,
sounds. This took a LONG time - 20 minutes maybe. The son came over in
the middle of it - one of the other kids had tried to intervene, but he
wasn't budging. Eventually the girl was done and ready to go play again.

The mom never got up and tried to intervene and force the boy to give
in - even though I imagine it was really frustrating, considering how
silly the whole fuss seemed - who CARES what name your pretend pet dog
chooses? Answer - both of these kids cared a lot - or maybe this wasn't
even ABOUT that, really. Maybe he'd been bossing her around for an hour
and this was just the final straw OR maybe she'd been refusing to go
along with any of HIS ideas for the previous hour. NO way could mom
really know. Neither kid wanted to work it out - neither wanted to talk
about it at that point.

I was SO impressed with this mom's patience. She built up HUGE credit
with her daughter - she was so there for her - so NOT impatient and
wanting her to hurry up and get over it. She didn't interfere - allowed
her daughter to set the timing. She didn't force a solution - didn't
force her to go "talk about it" - didn't try to make them work it out
since it was obvious that, at that time, anyway, neither wanted to do
that.

Her kids played happily together for hours following that incident. All
was forgotten and forgiven. Maybe they talked about it later - or maybe
not. I know they talk about stuff like that - when everybody is feeling
good and they have a bit of distance and perspective. Either way, it
was a lovely lovely thing to watch such patience and kindness and
intelligence at work!!!

-pam