[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 12:09:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> <She's already taken the SAT a couple of times? > she took the SAT when she
> was still in school, 2nd and 3rd grades, not my choice but I supported her
> decision
>
> <She's already gone through college brochures? Talked with college
> coaches?> she's watched the process with her older siblings and it was
> something she choose to investigate, something she wanted to learn and
> explore, so we did
>
> <She has her own Visa card?> all my children have their own VISA cards, the
> VISA BUXX cards, they have a pre set limit for spending each month and it
> gives them the freedom to purchase as they see fit, not carry around lots
> of cash and it teaches them responsibility for her own statement and her
> own spending. She couldn't wait to be old enough to get her own card, she
> asked so we ordered it, and it works GREAT
>
> <She's 14 years old?> yep
>
> <I'd say take a vacation from all this - really TAKE a vacation - for a
> few years. Try to extend her childhood a little longer. What is the
> hurry?>

There is no hurry, BELIEVE me, I would prefer my children stay children
forever
> and this is one part of life where I couldn't agree with you more. But
> unschooling IS following the interests of the child and helping them and
> doing what you can for them. Taking her out of school and away from the
> demanding craziness of it all was a good thing. She hasn't taken SATS for
> YEARS but she knows about them and she's done them and they probably won't
> be scary to her when they count for real. So even though I wasn't sure it
> was a good idea for a second or third grader to take such a test, I'm sure
> it had it's merits. It didn't hurt her and she wanted to try it.
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorcha

* <She's already taken the SAT a couple of times? > she took the
SAT when she
> was still in school, 2nd and 3rd grades, not my choice but I supported
her
> decision

Is this possibly a misunderstanding? She's taken an achievement test
called the SAT, which is not the Scholastic Aptitude Test to get into
college, right? I think I've heard of an achievement test for younger
kids called the SAT.

Sorcha


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Monday, April 7, 2003, at 09:24 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

>> <She's already taken the SAT a couple of times? > she took the SAT
>> when she
>> was still in school, 2nd and 3rd grades, not my choice but I
>> supported her
>> decision

Okay - this is not "the SAT" - the college entrance exam. This is just
one of the standardized tests sometimes given in public and private
schools.

You put that she'd taken the SAT's in the context of how she was so
familiar with what she needed to do to become a doctor - so I thought
you meant the college entrance exams.


>>>So I've done all that I feel comfortable with, I've bought Algebra
programs
for the computer, I've sent her sites that talk about it, we've
discussed the
prerequisites for college. We have college brochures, we've talked with
college coaches (she's an all-star cheerleader and a softball player).
We've
both seen what it takes to get into college. She's taken the SAT a
couple
times and she knows the math is like a foreign language she's never
learned
but she has no desire to learn it.<<<<


So - when she took these standardized tests in 2nd and 3rd grade the
arithmetic in them was like another language to her and she has no
desire to learn it? In 2nd and 3rd grade they were adding and
subtracting and just introducing multiplying and dividing. No
fractions, decimals, or percentages yet. So -- just to be clear, you
are talking about algebra - so I assume she has somehow learned adding
and subtracting and multiplying and dividing, right? And other
arithmetic?

-pam

Sorcha

SAT
Standardized Achievement Test (for elementary school children)
Scholastic Aptitude Test (for high school students hoping to get into
college)

I just Googled SAT. You meant the first one, right?

Sorcha


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 12:32:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:

> Is this possibly a misunderstanding? She's taken an achievement test
> called the SAT, which is not the Scholastic Aptitude Test to get into
> college, right? I think I've heard of an achievement test for younger
> kids called the SAT.
>

Nope the SAT at the high school with all the other high school students.
Cait scored a perfect score on the achievement tests for second and third
grade. That made her eligible for the Johns Hopkins Talent Search classes,
they suggest taking the SAT to see where you should be placed and what
enrichment programs that you might be suited to.

I'd never heard of it, the teacher was gung ho about it, Cait wanted to do
it, her sister was going to go take it anyway and so she did.

The next year she wanted to take it again "just to see how she would do".
She enjoys this, I do not enjoy taking her on a Saturday morning, EARLY.
When I said she hadn't taken them in YEARS she just reminded me that yes she
did, when her brother took it a couple years ago, so did she, "just for fun".

Not my idea of FUN in any sense of the word.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Glena - you're wasting our time by not being clear.

I asked you directly:
> <She's already taken the SAT a couple of times? >

You answered:

> she took the SAT when she
> was still in school, 2nd and 3rd grades, not my choice but I supported
> her
> decision

And then someone asks:
>> I think I've heard of an achievement test for younger
>> kids called the SAT.

And you say:
>
> Nope the SAT at the high school with all the other high school
> students.

So - she took the SAT college entrance exam when she was in 2nd and 3rd
grades?

Glena - how is your own math?

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 12:51:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:

> I just Googled SAT. You meant the first one, right?
>
>

No, I mean the one high school students take hoping to get into college


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Is there a Johns Hopkins program for 2nd and 3rd grade kids? Someone
suggested this for my kids once, but I was told it was for middle
school age kids.

-pam


On Monday, April 7, 2003, at 09:55 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/7/2003 12:51:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> sorcha-aisling@... writes:
>
>> I just Googled SAT. You meant the first one, right?
>>
>>
>
> No, I mean the one high school students take hoping to get into college
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>

Sorcha

>>>Is there a Johns Hopkins program for 2nd and 3rd grade kids?<<<

I was part of that when I was a kid and it was either 7th or 8th grade
(I can't remember which). I think it was the PSAT, not the SAT. But it
was years ago, so who knows.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorcha

>>>That made her eligible for the Johns Hopkins Talent Search classes,
they suggest taking the SAT to see where you should be placed and what
enrichment programs that you might be suited to.<<<

May I ask what kind of scores the second and third graders taking this
SAT got? Not the score of your daughter, necessarily, but the scores in
general for that age group? What a way to make kids feel like a
failure! Giving them a test that they can't possibly do well on.
Scary.

Sorcha




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 12:55:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> So - she took the SAT college entrance exam when she was in 2nd and 3rd
> grades?
>
> Glena - how is your own math?
>
>

YES, I am being clear, you are not "hearing" what I am saying. She took the
HIGH SCHOOL SAT in second and third grades. This is OFFERED to children,
well offered to ANYONE who pays to take it, but offered to children who are
offered enrichment classes through Johns Hopkins University talent search
program. It is NOT something I had any idea about until the teacher had Cait
all excited about and I agreed to let her do.

Cait was in second and third grade and she took it where the SAT is
administered for ANY ages that choose to take it.

One of the reasons she probably has been receiving college stuff in the mail
for years, I'm sure that's where the get the names and addresses of the kids.

Can you please tell me what you are unclear about? I'm not sure what you
think is unclear.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:01:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> Is there a Johns Hopkins program for 2nd and 3rd grade kids? Someone
> suggested this for my kids once, but I was told it was for middle
> school age kids.
>

Yes there is a program for elementary aged children. They need test scores
in order for your child to get into the enrichment programs (some of which
are great adventures) so you take the SAT at the high school or I think you
can do it at Slyvan now. And it is the SAME test that the high schoolers
take, she did it at the same time as her older sister. They don't expect
them to come close to a 1600 but it's their way of offering the enrichment
programs.

There even may be other tests the let you take now to "qualify" it was a few
years ago that Cait was in second grade.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:11:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> Okay - this is not "the SAT" - the college entrance exam. This is just
> one of the standardized tests sometimes given in public and private
> schools.
>

It IS the SAT, the one you take for college entrance. Students who score
about a certain percentage in the regular classroom standardized tests are
selected out to be eligible for this Johns Hopkins Talent Search, then you
take the college entrance SAT test to determine what enrichment programs you
qualify for with Johns Hopkins.

glena who is being a clear as she can be about this


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:12:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sorcha-aisling@... writes:

> May I ask what kind of scores the second and third graders taking this
> SAT got? Not the score of your daughter, necessarily, but the scores in
> general for that age group? What a way to make kids feel like a
> failure! Giving them a test that they can't possibly do well on.
> Scary.
>
> Sorcha
>
I don't know what other children got. I think the first time Cait took it
there were four others that were in her age range (not high school students)
I know Caits first test her combined scores were in the high six hundreds. A
college bound student would be devastated but that was not the case with
Cait. She thought it was "cool" that she did that well on a test that much
older kids had a hard time preparing for. She just took it "cold" with no
prep because I simply didn't see the value in taking THE SAT in the second
grade but she wanted to do it.

The next year her scores were in the 800, comparable to her sisters who was
in 11th grade, now she REALLY thought THAT was cool.

I just asked her what her scores were two years ago when she took them with
her brother, she says she doesn't know but can look it up if it matters. I
don't recall that they were outrageously high, I think her and her brother
were pretty much neck and neck.

She enjoyed it, I HATE the thought of taking it as did two of the other three
who have taken them.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <rubyprincesstsg@...>

<<YES, I am being clear, you are not "hearing" what I am saying. She took
the
HIGH SCHOOL SAT in second and third grades. This is OFFERED to children,
well offered to ANYONE who pays to take it, but offered to children who are
offered enrichment classes through Johns Hopkins University talent search
program. It is NOT something I had any idea about until the teacher had
Cait
all excited about and I agreed to let her do.>>


I'm actually shocked and appalled that anyone would even think of giving
high school SAT's to grade schoolers.

Mary B

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:47:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:

> I'm actually shocked and appalled that anyone would even think of giving
> high school SAT's to grade schoolers.
>

Yep, that's what happens to children who have mothers who bought into the
whole SCHOOLING notion like I did. The enrichment program was something she
was interested in AND she was completely bored with school. Every year she
was absent more and more for "other" more "interesting" activities that her
and I did at home. Her last couple years she was absent more than she
attended so it took some time to convince DH that homeschooling was what we
both wanted. But after all the times she was home and we had great adventures
together and school really wasn't important he sorta understood or just
decided it was a loosing battle maybe.

A teacher once threatened me with jail if she missed any more school (4th
grade) and I asked him why she needed to be there, he quickly replied "so she
can learn" I asked him what she WASN'T learning and he had to shrug and admit
she had nearly perfect scores in everything he graded.

Same thing happened in sixth grade, (which was the last straw) I met with
four teachers who were telling me how Cait's absences were affecting her
education. I asked for her grades, all A's. I thought enough said. Next
report card she had all F's except for one D. The one teacher who could NOT
bring herself to FAIL Cait.

Cait was devastated by this. She had EARNED A's but they failed her for
being absent. An awakening moment, time to LEAVE this behind.

So began our "official" journey into letting her learn at home (and
everywhere else she chooses).

But these tests are given all the time to students. Teachers tell them how
they are "special" and they WANT to take them.

glena



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <rubyprincesstsg@...>

<<But these tests are given all the time to students. Teachers tell them
how
they are "special" and they WANT to take them.>>


I have an older daughter in school. She was never given testing like that
when she was younger. A student and high IQ scores. I guess I should be
thankful for one thing they didn't do to screw her up.

Mary B

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 2:54:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:

> I have an older daughter in school. She was never given testing like that
> when she was younger. A student and high IQ scores. I guess I should be
> thankful for one thing they didn't do to screw her up.
>

Supposedly it is "triggered" by your test scores on those standardized test
they give you certain grades, like second. You don't HAVE to take the SAT'S
at the high school but after the big build up and the pretty brochures the
kids bring home and how they tell you they've "qualified" for this "special"
program, it's kinda hard to just tell them they don't need it. So they are
excited and you let them try and horror of horrors, they LIKE it. Who would
have guessed that a child would LIKE the SAT?

Guess it's one of those things you don't know enough about it to be
intimidated by it, it was an HONOR almost to her to take it.

I just shake my head and wonder...
glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

coyote's corner

I wonder how much funding may have to do with these tests. When I was in high school, there was a test the entire state took. It was to tell us what we were suited for. I was suited for nothing. Period. I ended up taking the test three or four times. I was suited to do nothing.
I also recall that when my mom stopped the tests, she was told that the school got 'points' for each test given. The points helped determine how much aid the district rec'd.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: rubyprincesstsg@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re: 14 year olds was new member intro


In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:47:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:

> I'm actually shocked and appalled that anyone would even think of giving
> high school SAT's to grade schoolers.
>

Yep, that's what happens to children who have mothers who bought into the
whole SCHOOLING notion like I did. The enrichment program was something she
was interested in AND she was completely bored with school. Every year she
was absent more and more for "other" more "interesting" activities that her
and I did at home. Her last couple years she was absent more than she
attended so it took some time to convince DH that homeschooling was what we
both wanted. But after all the times she was home and we had great adventures
together and school really wasn't important he sorta understood or just
decided it was a loosing battle maybe.

A teacher once threatened me with jail if she missed any more school (4th
grade) and I asked him why she needed to be there, he quickly replied "so she
can learn" I asked him what she WASN'T learning and he had to shrug and admit
she had nearly perfect scores in everything he graded.

Same thing happened in sixth grade, (which was the last straw) I met with
four teachers who were telling me how Cait's absences were affecting her
education. I asked for her grades, all A's. I thought enough said. Next
report card she had all F's except for one D. The one teacher who could NOT
bring herself to FAIL Cait.

Cait was devastated by this. She had EARNED A's but they failed her for
being absent. An awakening moment, time to LEAVE this behind.

So began our "official" journey into letting her learn at home (and
everywhere else she chooses).

But these tests are given all the time to students. Teachers tell them how
they are "special" and they WANT to take them.

glena



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**> I'm actually shocked and appalled that anyone would even think of giving
> high school SAT's to grade schoolers.
>

Yep, that's what happens to children who have mothers who bought into
the
whole SCHOOLING notion like I did.**


OK, maybe I can shock and appall everyone just a bit. <g>

Glena, if your daughter likes noodling around with standardized tests
and feels very successful with them, maybe she would enjoy having an
MCAT book and looking at the types of questions that are on the sample tests.

Some people like to start at the end and work backwards. I'm kind of
backwards myself.

Betsy

Mary

From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>

<< I wonder how much funding may have to do with these tests. When I was in
high school, there was a test the entire state took. It was to tell us what
we were suited for. I was suited for nothing. Period. I ended up taking the
test three or four times. I was suited to do nothing.>>


Well how long did it take you to get over the damage from that self esteem
disruption?? Or were you one of the lucky ones who didn't give a hoot??? How
awful.

Mary B

Pamela Sorooshian

My kids got invitations to Johns Hopkins academic talent search program
- where you get the "honor" of being allowed to take the SAT and then
that makes you eligible to enroll in various summer programs (very
expensive, by the way). My nephews got these too. I looked at them as
marketing - and threw them out. They were for middle school ages,
though, not 7 or 8 yo kids.

The requirement is supposed to be scoring 97 percent or higher on some
standard achievement test, but my kids obviously got recommended by
somebody in some other way since they never took ANY exams and were not
even in school.

-pam


On Monday, April 7, 2003, at 11:57 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

> Guess it's one of those things you don't know enough about it to be
> intimidated by it, it was an HONOR almost to her to take it.

coyote's corner

You know, that's how I feel about MENSA. You score a certain percentage on certain test(s) and you are given the 'honor' of joining. I forget how much annual dues are (maybe $45.00??) One of the worst moms I've ever met was so proud of being a member - she knew that she was raising her kids the only way, the best way. Her kids are bullies. When they moved away, neighbors came out of their homes and applauded!! Marketing - all marketing.

Tests are terrible.
I see what 2 & 1/2 years of public school has done to Brianna.
She's so worried that she's failing because we don't have tests. She frets that she's not "learning it right" ; she really, honestly worries about it.

The true test is how you live your life.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re: 14 year olds was new member intro


My kids got invitations to Johns Hopkins academic talent search program
- where you get the "honor" of being allowed to take the SAT and then
that makes you eligible to enroll in various summer programs (very
expensive, by the way). My nephews got these too. I looked at them as
marketing - and threw them out. They were for middle school ages,
though, not 7 or 8 yo kids.

The requirement is supposed to be scoring 97 percent or higher on some
standard achievement test, but my kids obviously got recommended by
somebody in some other way since they never took ANY exams and were not
even in school.

-pam


On Monday, April 7, 2003, at 11:57 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

> Guess it's one of those things you don't know enough about it to be
> intimidated by it, it was an HONOR almost to her to take it.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/03 1:47:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:

> . It is NOT something I had any idea about until the teacher had
> Cait
> all excited about and I agreed to let her do.>>
>
>
> I'm actually shocked and appalled that anyone would even think of giving
> high school SAT's to grade schoolers.
>
>

What I think is great about this is that she was thrilled no matter what
score she received. That is great.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

coyote's corner

How long ....I would say many, many years. Really. I recall sitting in the principal's office and her looking at me with disdain, anger. As though I was an embarrassment to the school. It was many years before I felt capable. For many years I felt as though I was phony. "If anyone ever finds out how stupid and inefficent I am...." type of thing.

There are still moments.....
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re: 14 year olds was new member intro


From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>

<< I wonder how much funding may have to do with these tests. When I was in
high school, there was a test the entire state took. It was to tell us what
we were suited for. I was suited for nothing. Period. I ended up taking the
test three or four times. I was suited to do nothing.>>


Well how long did it take you to get over the damage from that self esteem
disruption?? Or were you one of the lucky ones who didn't give a hoot??? How
awful.

Mary B




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

Oh my gosh, that makes me feel so sad. What a HORRIBLE way to treat children.

Testing is THE most stupid thing I think we do to children.

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: coyote's corner
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re: 14 year olds was new member intro


How long ....I would say many, many years. Really. I recall sitting in the principal's office and her looking at me with disdain, anger. As though I was an embarrassment to the school. It was many years before I felt capable. For many years I felt as though I was phony. "If anyone ever finds out how stupid and inefficent I am...." type of thing.

There are still moments.....
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re: 14 year olds was new member intro


From: "coyote's corner" <jana@...>

<< I wonder how much funding may have to do with these tests. When I was in
high school, there was a test the entire state took. It was to tell us what
we were suited for. I was suited for nothing. Period. I ended up taking the
test three or four times. I was suited to do nothing.>>


Well how long did it take you to get over the damage from that self esteem
disruption?? Or were you one of the lucky ones who didn't give a hoot??? How
awful.

Mary B




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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