Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema

>My
>food intake was strictly controlled, grapefruit and eggs diet at the
>age of 9, things like that.
>And the eating thing is overwhelming. I am definitely a compulsive
>overeater, and am not sure how to handle the free reign with food
>issue for my son. He seems to have the same food issues that I had,
>not able to leave chocolate alone, must eat any cake or cookies in
>the house voraciously till they are gone, I know I have caused these
>things, but how do I help him and trust him when I can't trust
>myself? Again, anyone else dealing with this type of stuff?

Hi Nancy,
I hope other folks speak to the tv and bedtime things, because I'm going to
think about the food one for a minute.
I know where you're coming from. IMHO, you have to handle your perception
of over-eating for yourself before you can handle it for your son... or
maybe the two of you can work on it together, if he's game. I used to eat
as a form of comfort - still do, but less frequently find the need and not
to the extent I once did. Bag of chips? Used to be gone in 15
minutes. Nowadays, a bag of chips lasts days or weeks (and sometimes gets
thrown out because it's gone all stale!)

First, you gotta love you. I know, can the crap already. We're going to
do a self check. Who are you? You are not your mother. (surprise,
surprise!) You are not whatever idea your mother had inside her pretty
little 1950's era head. You are whatever YOU decide you are at that
particular moment in time and if you find yourself not being what you would
like to be, decide to be something else *for that ONE Particular Moment in
Time.* Seriously, break your life down into tiny little fragments and
catch yourself being who you want to be. Were you 'yourself' for the past
2 minutes? Hey, that's Great! Now try for 3 minutes. (seriously small
fragments of time!) Get to really enjoy one specific thing about yourself
each day and concentrate on that one thing. It can be your exquisite
little toe or the way you cross your t's, singing off-key in the most
atrocious manner. Choose something you enjoy about yourself. Be you and
recognize you.

Okay, so the underlying guilt and other assorted
not-meeting-up-to-mommy's-expectations complexes will take some time to get
through. In the meantime, let's play with the food. You're going to
deschool eating... or is it, defood? C'mon, defooding is FUN! (and tasty!)

Firstly, there is no such thing as 'bad' food. (Unless you're allergic,
perhaps.) All food is good. All food is good for you, if it fills a need
for you, and until you decide that it is not filling the need and something
else might fill it better... but you can't decide that yet, because you're
still seeing yourself being 'voracious' about certain foods. So, for now,
buy more of those foods so you will *never* run out of it.

I'm serious. If your body cries out for cookies, buy 10 bags of
cookies. Bake cookies until they overflow from your counter, until you
have to step around the containers of cookies to make dinner - or have
cookies for dinner! Make cakes with extra icing (excellent on spoons!)
Keep a HEAPING bowl of chocolate M&M's on the kitchen table. Put them in
pretty bowls and cookie jars. Eat them. Enjoy them. Decorate with
them! Revel in them! Look at the guilt then toss it over your
shoulder!!! There is NO guilt in eating what fills you. There is NO such
thing as a 'bad' food! If you want a food, it should be available to
you! (after all, would you limit your accessibility to books? Of course
not!) And be in the moment, as much as you can. Don't think about the
'next step' or wonder how in the world you are eating this particular food,
just eat it, and enjoy it! Smack your lips!

Here's a whiz-banger! If you are NOT enjoying the food you are eating,
STOP eating it, and figure out what you *would* enjoy! A different
food? Something else? Just never, ever 'punish' yourself when you are
eating, and especially not afterwards. Food is Good. Think Good, Tasty
Food, Tasty Chocolate, Tasty Cookies! Good for You! (and until you're
solid in enjoying and welcoming your food, NEVER eat with someone who beats
themselves up for eating. Ever. You are worth more than that!)

Allow yourself to be filled by what calls to you. When you have eaten what
you want, when you want, as much as you want for several weeks/months,
begin to pay closer attention to when you are full and to what kind of food
your body is asking for *at that moment*, but never limit yourself to
quantity or content. All food is Good! All I mean is that before taking
the next bite, ask, Do I crave this morsel? If so, Eat it! If not, put it
nearby, in case you change your mind and want it again. Maybe you crave a
different morsel and should eat that! You're de-fooding. Everything is
okay.

Eat the things you crave now, until you begin to crave something other than
cookies, cake and chocolate, say, some sweet grapes. (You don't crave them
yet? Then don't eat them!) When you DO want the grapes (or whatever) go
out immediately and buy the most luscious grapes you can find - and then
buy some beautiful M&M's and cookies too! Put them together on the same
kitchen counter, all displayed as nicely as can be. When you are hungry,
stand for a moment and think, What Calls To Me Most? If it is the cookies,
Eat them! If it is the grapes, Eat them! If it is the M&M's, Eat
them! If it is some of each, Eat them!

It may take days. It may take weeks, months, or even years (if you're
stubborn about keeping the guilt thing, anyway) but one day you'll wake up
and you won't be interested in bingeing on your chocolates. You'll
surprise yourself by throwing out old, stale candy - by even HAVING stale
candy! (believe me, I was surprised the first time!) You may never be the
biggest fruit-eater on the block, but who cares? We can't ALL be the
biggest fruit eaters - there wouldn't be enough fruit! Instead, you'll be
listening to your body and giving it what it needs and wants,
wholeheartedly and WITHOUT the blasted guilt thing pushing it in random
directions.

What you're working on is giving yourself a chance to really experience
what you've always thought you shouldn't have but wanted, which will
someday allow you to see if it's *really* deep-down what truly calls to
you, and by that time, you'll be so bored by the cookies, cakes and
chocolates that they're just not interesting anymore. Other foods will
become more interesting... or maybe even other activities.

Really.

Nowadays, broccoli and asparagus are some of my favorite foods. I
frequently prefer to eat them rather than chocolate, although we keep cases
of chocolate in the house in case anyone ever wants some. We're never
without, just as we're never without cheese and turkey lunchmeat... and
frequently we go days or weeks without touching them.

Bon Appetit!
HeidiWD

"I prefer a person who will burn the flag and wrap themselves in the
constitution to a person who will burn the constitution and wrap themselves
in the flag" --- Molly Ivins

nancylowrie

I hate to keep flogging the TV question. I am digesting everything I
have been reading since I joined this list. Trying to let go of
control is something I struggle with. I truly believe in letting my
children have free reign with the TV. I truly believe in giving them
the control over themselves, choices, and respect.
I have come to the conclusion that I am the onew with the problems, I
was strictly controlled as a child, very little tv, told how fat I
was,(funny, don't look fat in pictures, that is another story.)My
food intake was strictly controlled, grapefruit and eggs diet at the
age of 9, things like that. I hear the voices of my childhood
everytime the tv comes on, and I am the one who sits vacantly in
front of it when it is on, so there is much guilt. I am trying to rid
myself of that. But I think it has certainly affected the way I
parent.How do I let go off this for my children if I am still
punishing myself?? I enjoyed what Sandra wrote about the inner child
but am not sure how to implement that. Anyone else dealing with this?
And the eating thing is overwhelming. I am definitely a compulsive
overeater, and am not sure how to handle the free reign with food
issue for my son. He seems to have the same food issues that I had,
not able to leave chocolate alone, must eat any cake or cookies in
the house voraciously till they are gone, I know I have caused these
things, but how do I help him and trust him when I can't trust
myself? Again, anyone else dealing with this type of stuff?
Goodness this is getting long. Sorry about that. Last issue!
Bedtime. I was e-mailing with Sandra about this not long ago. I want
to let of controlling my son's bedtime. I don't know what is holding
me back. I seem to believe that I deserve the last hour or two of the
night to myself. My husband works afternoon shift all the time, so
evenings are just me and the kids. would it be less stressful for me
to just let it go rather than go thru the wholebed time routine? What
does that look like for other people? I get to the point where i am
so tired that I don't want anyone to talk to me, what do I do with
my son then? this is not a vent. I really want to find out what
other people have experienced on this issue. I am trying to work for
changes in my mindset to better things for my children.
Nancy

Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema

>
> I polished of 6 donuts the other day, because I was
>alone and stressed out. So far my son shows no signs of this, but i am hoping
>to deal with my stuff in order to avoid it for him.

Hey Nancy,
I think I might just WANT to move in with you for a while, if you're going
to beat yourself up for eating a measly 6 donuts! (and what kind were
they? I *love* cake/baked donuts!)

Frankly, you could maybe use somebody to keep reminding you to NOT live in
the past and think so negatively about what has already gone past! The
past is Gone, gone, gone, gone. There are no do-overs with eating, so why
try to go back and relive it?!

So you were stressed out and alone and you ate. So what!! (and good for
you, too! You tried to take care of yourself, to make yourself feel
better!) ...and it was maybe 15 minutes out of your life, eh? 15 minutes
out of your glorious, fabulous life when you were not being who you'd like
to be? ...and you've chosen to remind yourself about those particular 15
minutes. When you can't change what happened and 'be perfect'? Is that
'guilt' *really* what you want to reinforce? (*Grrrrrrr....* (mock growl))

Please:
Reinforce the parts of your life when you're being the person you WANT to be.
Everything else is just practicing for those moments and can be dismissed
out of hand.
(and really, watch what you reinforce for yourself. You *do* what you
reinforce for yourself. ...do you really want to reinforce those icky,
guilty feelings when you eat? Let It Go!)

So, how were those donuts? Tasty? Yummy? Mouthwatering?
Mmmmmmn, I can almost taste them! Pass one over!
HeidiWD, the guilt-crushing-donut-maven


"I prefer a person who will burn the flag and wrap themselves in the
constitution to a person who will burn the constitution and wrap themselves
in the flag" --- Molly Ivins

Andrea

At 06:56 AM 4/1/03 +0000, Nancy wrote:
>I have come to the conclusion that I am the onew with the problems, I
>was strictly controlled as a child, very little tv, told how fat I
>was,(funny, don't look fat in pictures, that is another story.)My
>food intake was strictly controlled, grapefruit and eggs diet at the
>age of 9, things like that. I hear the voices of my childhood
>everytime the tv comes on, and I am the one who sits vacantly in
>front of it when it is on, so there is much guilt. I am trying to rid
>myself of that. But I think it has certainly affected the way I
>parent.How do I let go off this for my children if I am still
>punishing myself?? I enjoyed what Sandra wrote about the inner child
>but am not sure how to implement that. Anyone else dealing with this?
>And the eating thing is overwhelming. I am definitely a compulsive
>overeater, and am not sure how to handle the free reign with food
>issue for my son. He seems to have the same food issues that I had,
>not able to leave chocolate alone, must eat any cake or cookies in
>the house voraciously till they are gone, I know I have caused these
>things, but how do I help him and trust him when I can't trust
>myself? Again, anyone else dealing with this type of stuff?

Oh, yes, Nancy. Your childhood sounds very similar to mine, and I deal with
the same difficulties now. Have you heard of a book called "Diets Don't
Work"? I admit I haven't read it but a friend of mine loved it and it
sounds like it has some of the same ideas I have worked out for myself in
the past few years. I think it all comes down to not feeling worthy of
anything. Common but devastating.

>would it be less stressful for me
>to just let it go rather than go thru the wholebed time routine? What
>does that look like for other people? I get to the point where i am
>so tired that I don't want anyone to talk to me, what do I do with
>my son then?

I forget how old he is, but even a young child can understand that mommy is
tired and needs to rest at night. What I do is tell them that I am too
tired to do much of anything, and my ears are tired from all the talking
etc. We can do something quiet or they can do something on their own.

As an example, last night I was more tired than usual. My husband doesn't
get home till 8 or later most nights. While he was eating supper the boys
and I (they are 10, 7 and 3) played charades. At 9:00 I had had it, the
noise especially bothers me. I said I was going up to my room and that if
anyone wanted to join me they could. Shortly after, Eric (7) came in bed
with me and went to sleep. Then Simon (3) came in, we read one book, then
turned out the light. William (10) was downstairs having a snack. He gets
to bed by himself when he is ready.

Donna Andrea

Shyrley

nancylowrie wrote:

> so there is much guilt. I am trying to rid
> myself of that. But I think it has certainly affected the way I
> parent.How do I let go off this for my children if I am still
> punishing myself??

The first stage you've already done. Seen the connection. Many people can't or wont make that connection between what happened to them at children and how they parent. You've been able to explore and
had the courage to see.

> I enjoyed what Sandra wrote about the inner child
> but am not sure how to implement that. Anyone else dealing with this?
> And the eating thing is overwhelming. I am definitely a compulsive
> overeater, and am not sure how to handle the free reign with food
> issue for my son. He seems to have the same food issues that I had,
> not able to leave chocolate alone, must eat any cake or cookies in
> the house voraciously till they are gone, I know I have caused these
> things, but how do I help him and trust him when I can't trust
> myself? Again, anyone else dealing with this type of stuff?

I'm not sure how the proffessionals deal with it but (after seeing professionals for years and getting nowhere) I did the following to get rid of anorexia and depression (still working on the depression
but then I'm a slow learner....)
Firtsly I stopped controlling food. I gave myself permission to eat what and when I liked. For the first month or so I ate nothing but choclate and cookies. My body craved those things I had been
denying myself. It was hard and I was afraid it would never stop and that I would turn into a whale. Gradually the craving changed to bananas. Basically, over the first 6 months it was weird, I craved
all sorts of things. I also felt guilty (having a diet obsessed MIL doesn't help. I banned her from my life as a negative thing but thats a whole nother story - she thought anorexia was great cos it
made you thin!)
I also learned to appreciate that my body was the way it was. I took it for walks, strated bike-riding.

It's not easy letting go of all that guilt, control etc and for a while you might feel that it means you get out of control but gradually everything balances back. It could take a year or so before it
does which is why many people give up. They want an instant fix but years of controlling and years of a bad relationship with food doesn't disappear over-night unfortunately.
I also found a good councellor (sp?) helped. She talked me through the issues with my mother until I could say no to that internal voice of my mothers telling me I wasn't good enough, that nothing I did
was ever right.

Well, hope that gave you some starting points. You've done the first step which is in some ways the hardest. Now all you have to do is jump :-)

Shyrley who wishes she was more eloquent (and could spell)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Nancy,

I also grew up in a similar family. Not restricted with TV but with food. I had been on many diets also by that age. Didn't know there was anything but diet soda! Sad, huh?

My advise: very similar to Heidi's and Shyrley's. Care for yourself and for sure, stop Dieting!

I started noticing that when I dieted I gained weight. I stopped drinking diet soda, drank water and lost weight. I started eating what I wanted and lost weight. It all has to do with listening to your body, like what Heidi was talking about.

I went through a Coke and chocolate phase, seriously that's all I ate. Not healthy and I'm not saying you should do it, but it was a discovery thing. Growing up, I never was allowed dessert unless I ate everything, surprise, surprise. So, I was always wanting those desserts. I had to figure out that it is only food, not bad, not good. I can have it if I want it. I think that's what took the fascination away, I can have it if I want it. Well,,,,,then I don't really want it. Its not so magical then is it?

I still sometimes eat chocolate and sometimes eat too much, but its my choice and I weigh less than I used to and I'm much healthier. I don't hear my Mom anymore saying, "ooohhh, you shouldn't be eating that!"

Kelli

Oh, and I don't own a scale either! I had to get over the whole number thing, that was huge. I'm very large boned and tall, so I was always trying to weigh alot less than what was healthy for me. I'm about 5' 10" and weigh around 160, sometimes more, sometimes less. Which is alot for some women, but I know that I'm fine and healthy!

Kelli




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Kelli Traaseth

nancylowrie <nancylowrie@...> wrote:
**would it be less stressful for me
to just let it go rather than go thru the wholebed time routine? What
does that look like for other people? I get to the point where i am
so tired that I don't want anyone to talk to me, what do I do with
my son then? **



We used to have a bed time....and it was stressful. My dh was gone alot when mine were younger so I know what you're going through. I would lose it almost every night.

We now just try and read each other. Figure out how we are all feeling. Work together.

If I'm tired I communicate with the kids that I'm running out of steam. We'll pop in a movie or something low energy for me. I can then rest my eyes and they slow down.





My kids are now 10, 8 and 5. My 10 and 8 could go to bed on their own, but they still like to be with me and my dh. So I'll let them know that I'm getting ready for bed, ask them how they are doing. Usually, they are getting sleepy too and we all go to bed together, between 9 and 10 p.m., I tend to get up early, they sleep in. This has been working quite well.



The part that has been huge for me in this scenerio is that they are only young for such a short time. I used to get so wrapped up with how tired I was. I now can talk myself through it. Work through the tiredness. I was never cuddled or babied at night, so I try and do that now with my kids.



Do you get breaks from your kids at other times of the day? That's what helped with me. I need to take some time for me, reading, working at the computer, whateever. Then I can be there for them when they really need me, and it seems to be more in the evening that they do need me. I can then be patient, calm and end their day that way. That nice feeling before going to bed, instead of a sad, tense time.



Kelli







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lonskids247

--- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
<kellitraas@y...> wrote:
>
>I started eating what I wanted and
>lost weight.

My teenage niece is in Germany right now and one of the first things
she commented about when she called home was how much food those
people over there eat at meals and how they're always eating!! BUT
she also said there are very few heavy set people around. Makes ya
think. They haven't deprived themselves of food or made things off
limits. They just eat and have the pleasure of it without all the
hang-ups...so their metabolism just naturally stayed high and they
burn it off without effort. When are we here gonna learn?

Shyrley

lonskids247 wrote:

> --- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
> <kellitraas@y...> wrote:
> >
> >I started eating what I wanted and
> >lost weight.
>
> My teenage niece is in Germany right now and one of the first things
> she commented about when she called home was how much food those
> people over there eat at meals and how they're always eating!! BUT
> she also said there are very few heavy set people around. Makes ya
> think. They haven't deprived themselves of food or made things off
> limits. They just eat and have the pleasure of it without all the
> hang-ups...so their metabolism just naturally stayed high and they
> burn it off without effort. When are we here gonna learn?
>

When we ditch the car :-)
People in Europe enjoy food but rates of walking and cycling are much much higher. It's like they live in their bodies while a lot of people here don't. They carry them round, don't do anything with
them and then agonise over food. Bodies like being fed and they like being used :-)

Shyrley


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

I spent years struggling with food and weight issues and ended up getting a
degree in nutrition. It was amusing to me that many of the people in the
nutrition department (student and faculty) were either very thin or quite
heavy. My favorite "heavy" professor was in charge of the food sociology
classes. She loved food and her classes were so enjoyable.

I agree with the post about loading up on your forbidden foods and just
eating them as much as you want. As long as you are denying yourself
certain foods they will continue to call to you.

There are no foods that make you fat or thin. I know skinny people who seem
to live on what most people would consider junk food and fat people who make
very "healthy" food choices.

Another point to remember is that we are all born with body types. Thin,
Chubby, Tall, Short, Muscular, Wiry. They are all RIGHT. Getting some kind
of exercise is probably the most important thing for a healthy body. But
it needs to be exercise you enjoy and you need to do it because you like
doing it, not because it will make you look better. If you listen to your
own body, it will be the body it needs and wants to be.

I haven't read this book in a while, but it was once one of my favorites:
How to Get Your Kid to Eat but Not Too Much, by Ellyn Satter. I recommend
this book to any adult who has food issues. Read it and think of yourself
as the kid while you are reading.

Mary Ellen

the_clevengers

--- In [email protected], "nancylowrie"
<nancylowrie@h...> wrote:
> I truly believe in giving them
> the control over themselves, choices, and respect.
> I have come to the conclusion that I am the onew with the
problems, I
> was strictly controlled as a child, very little tv, told how fat I
> was,(funny, don't look fat in pictures, that is another story.)

This sounds all too familiar. I'm a sturdily-built person, as is my
hubby, as are my kids. Big bones, good muscles. My mom told me at
age 12 I had "the figure of an oatmeal box". Gee, thanks mom. What I
really have the figure of is a good athlete, but I didn't know that
at the time. I only knew I wasn't thin. At the same time though, I
did have a very healthy diet growing up, we grew a lot of our own
produce and my mom belonged to a food co-op. For that aspect, I'm
grateful. But I think most of our parents, particularly mothers,
were part of that 60's era thinking about women's bodies. I don't
remember a time when my mom wasn't dieting, and yet when you look at
the pictures from that time she was very normal sized.

> And the eating thing is overwhelming. I am definitely a compulsive
> overeater, and am not sure how to handle the free reign with food
> issue for my son. He seems to have the same food issues that I
had,
> not able to leave chocolate alone, must eat any cake or cookies in
> the house voraciously till they are gone, I know I have caused
these
> things, but how do I help him and trust him when I can't trust
> myself? Again, anyone else dealing with this type of stuff?

First of all, stop beating yourself up over it. Embrace what is
happening at this moment and give yourself the opportunity to accept
it. And I don't particularly think you caused this in your son. I
think humans are more or less programmed to crave sweet and fatty
foods. There was a time not too long ago in our biological heritage
when this trait served us well. It allowed our bodies to stock up in
times of plenty to prepare for times of famine. Of course, our
bodies were also working all day back then, so it didn't have the
associated health problems it does now. There are many paths to get
past this and get to a place where your body can recognize true
hunger and desire for food. Several posts have talked about ways to
let go and give yourself permission to find out what foods you are
really craving. I came at it from a different place, but it worked
well for me so I'll share it as well.

I went through a lot of the same stuff others have - food control as
a child, thinking I was fat, anorexia, followed by overeating,
followed by control, etc. What helped me was to exercise. I found
that when I started making my body move - at first just gently a few
times a week, but then increasing over time - I somehow cued in to
my body's actual signals: when it is really tired, feeling good,
tense, relaxed, hungry, satiated, etc. As I exercised more, I also
lost the guilt over eating, because my body needed more fuel. At the
same time, I cued in to cravings for good foods to fuel it. I
realized that for my body, eating meat made me feel lethargic, so I
gave it up. I realized that whole grains and fruits and veggies made
it feel good. But I also allowed myself to eat things like chocolate
without the guilt. Surprisingly (to me), I have eaten less and less
of it over time. I've also found out what amount makes me still feel
fine, and what amount makes me feel miserable. In our house, we
always have a variety of foods, including some chocolate at all
times! In that book I talked about earlier, it mentioned that
chocolate (particularly cocoa or dark chocolate) is higher in
antioxidants than any fruit or veggie. No wonder we crave it! The
woman who was the oldest living person in the world for some time,
she died at 124 I think, said she ate chocolate and drank some wine
every day. Sounds like a good plan to me :-)


> Goodness this is getting long. Sorry about that. Last issue!
> Bedtime. I was e-mailing with Sandra about this not long ago. I
want
> to let of controlling my son's bedtime. I don't know what is
holding
> me back. I seem to believe that I deserve the last hour or two of
the
> night to myself. My husband works afternoon shift all the time, so
> evenings are just me and the kids. would it be less stressful for
me
> to just let it go rather than go thru the wholebed time routine?
What
> does that look like for other people?

For us, I help the kids get their teeth brushed and into pajamas and
such, then I will read them some books and from a chapter book.
Sometimes my daughter falls asleep while I'm reading the chapter
book. If not, my son often goes off to play while I'm spending some
snuggle time with her. Or he might go cuddle or wrestle or read with
DH. Or, on a night he's feeling tired and my daughter isn't, she
might head off and I'll cuddle with him. Both of the kids really
look forward to their individual snuggle time with me where we talk
about our day and just hang out together. Sometimes they're both
tired and we all snuggle up together. Sometimes one will fall asleep
watching a movie or whatever. The nice thing is that they're each
cued in to their own bodies, so they recognize when they're getting
tired and when they're not. They will come to me and tell me when
they're sleepy, and they'll let me know if they're not and they want
to play or do something else. Regardless, the whole scenario usually
takes less than an hour, since it's begun when they know they're
starting to get sleepy. It's much less time than people I know go
through who put their kids to bed at arbitrary times and then have
to keep getting glasses of water and putting the kids back into bed
and getting more and more frustrated all the time.

Chances are, it might take awhile for your son to learn his own
sleepy cues. At first, if you take away bedtime, he'll go through a
learning curve where he stays up, gets overtired, or goes to bed too
early and isn't tired yet. He'll learn through trial and error what
it feels like to hear his body's signals that he's tired. A lot of
us didn't go through that until we were in college. Eventually,
he'll figure out what works for him. In the meantime, get a stack of
good books for yourself (the time I'm snuggled with my kids while
they're drifting off is always bonus reading time for me!) and that
way you won't be tempted to view it as "wasted time". You might find
a good way that the two of you can come to closure on the day. When
we climb into bed, I always talk about our day with each of the
kids. It gives them an opportunity to tell me about whatever they
want to, and has opened up some very interesting revelations and
conversations. After that, I usually sing to them, and then I read
my book as they drift off.

>I get to the point where i am
> so tired that I don't want anyone to talk to me, what do I do with
> my son then?

Just tell him that it's quiet time for you, but you're still willing
to be with him. Learn to recognize when you're approaching that
point, and offer to do any reading/talking/singing before that
point. I always read the bedtime stories before I start getting
really tired, and then after that I'm done reading out loud or I
tend to doze off in the middle of stories. After that, the kids can
get up and play on their own or together, or they can lie down and
snuggle, but they know I'm personally done being a part of any
action.

> other people have experienced on this issue. I am trying to work
for
> changes in my mindset to better things for my children.

Just keep in mind it will be a process, not an immediate change.
Maybe talk to your son about what he'd like to do for bedtime and
find something that will work for both of you. He'll eventually
learn to know when he's tired.

Blue Skies,

-Robin-

Andrea

At 11:17 AM 4/1/03 -0500, Shyrley wrote:
>When we ditch the car :-)

Hey, we don't have a car - by choice!

I hesitate to bring this up in any situation because I find that, more than
homeschooling, more than breastfeeding, more than any other crazy idea I
have, this issue makes people defensive.

Donna Andrea in Nova Scotia

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/04/2003 04:15:40 Pacific Standard Time,
andrea@... writes:


> I think it all comes down to not feeling worthy of
> anything. Common but devastating.
>

I think you nailed it right there, and that feeling paralizes me sometimes.
The food thing comes and goes, I have worked to de-food myself, and to try to
adopt healthy habits instead of dropping bad ones. It is working somewhat.
My son is 7 and very much always wanting to interact with me. I think he
feels me pull away and pushes harder for his own survival. i am going to
attack the bedtime issue tonight. wish me luck
Thanks
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorcha

>>>Hey, we don't have a car - by choice! I hesitate to bring this up in
any situation because I find that, more than
homeschooling, more than breastfeeding, more than any other crazy idea I

have, this issue makes people defensive.<<<

I don't usually tell people this because they completely freak out, but
I never got my driver's license. I actually like walking and when I
can't walk, there's always the bus. When some people find out, they
figure I must have married young and that I'm totally dependent on my
husband to get me anywhere. But I lived alone for four years before I
got married and I never felt stranded. Even now, I can walk to the
grocery store, the library, the park, and I can take a public bus if I
want to go somewhere else. People truly freak out over the "You don't
drive????" thing, but everytime I think about getting my license
(usually after my mom or MIL nags me), I know that if I _could_ drive I
probably _would_ drive and I'd be polluting the streets more than they
already are. I just haven't been able to bring myself to do that yet.

Sorcha



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

I can't imagine why anyone would be offended by someone not having a
car, but I can't imagine how awful it would be. We live 35 minutes
from the closest mall. When we go to our homeopath appointment, it's
an hour drive and we're there for at least an hour.

Where I live, you can't walk to the grocery store or the library or
really anywhere. There are two little playgrounds within walking
distance although my kids aren't interested in going to them very
often.

If I didn't have a car, I guess I could take a taxi, but we couldn't
go anywhere as a family in a taxi (with two adults, 3 kids, 2 of whom
are still in booster seats).

Tomorrow I'm playing around with the idea of driving to Baltimore, a
two hour drive, to go to their children's musuem. If we didn't have
a car, I guess we would have to take a bus...but how would we get to
the bus pick up? I think I would have to drive at least 15 min to
the closest bus pickup. I guess I could take a taxi to there too.

Sheila

--- In [email protected], "Sorcha" <sorcha-
aisling@i...> wrote:
> >>>Hey, we don't have a car - by choice! I hesitate to bring this
up in
> any situation because I find that, more than
> homeschooling, more than breastfeeding, more than any other crazy
idea I
>
> have, this issue makes people defensive.<<<
>
> I don't usually tell people this because they completely freak out,
but
> I never got my driver's license. I actually like walking and when I
> can't walk, there's always the bus. When some people find out, they
> figure I must have married young and that I'm totally dependent on
my
> husband to get me anywhere. But I lived alone for four years
before I
> got married and I never felt stranded. Even now, I can walk to the
> grocery store, the library, the park, and I can take a public bus
if I
> want to go somewhere else. People truly freak out over the "You
don't
> drive????" thing, but everytime I think about getting my license
> (usually after my mom or MIL nags me), I know that if I _could_
drive I
> probably _would_ drive and I'd be polluting the streets more than
they
> already are. I just haven't been able to bring myself to do that
yet.
>
> Sorcha
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nancylowrie

Heidi, can you come live with me and take care of me?, I am teary
eyed reading this, it is such an emotional issue. I do need to do
more self care, and I really like your method of de-fooding. Would
make so much sense if someone told me to do it for my son, I must
simply try to do it for me.Thank you for your kind words.
Nancy--- In [email protected], Heidi Wordhouse-
Dykema <heidi@d...> wrote:
>
> >My
> >food intake was strictly controlled, grapefruit and eggs diet at
the
> >age of 9, things like that.
> >And the eating thing is overwhelming. I am definitely a compulsive
> >overeater, and am not sure how to handle the free reign with food
> >issue for my son. He seems to have the same food issues that I had,
> >not able to leave chocolate alone, must eat any cake or cookies in
> >the house voraciously till they are gone, I know I have caused
these
> >things, but how do I help him and trust him when I can't trust
> >myself? Again, anyone else dealing with this type of stuff?
>
> Hi Nancy,
> I hope other folks speak to the tv and bedtime things, because I'm
going to
> think about the food one for a minute.
> I know where you're coming from. IMHO, you have to handle your
perception
> of over-eating for yourself before you can handle it for your
son... or
> maybe the two of you can work on it together, if he's game. I used
to eat
> as a form of comfort - still do, but less frequently find the need
and not
> to the extent I once did. Bag of chips? Used to be gone in 15
> minutes. Nowadays, a bag of chips lasts days or weeks (and
sometimes gets
> thrown out because it's gone all stale!)
>
> First, you gotta love you. I know, can the crap already. We're
going to
> do a self check. Who are you? You are not your mother. (surprise,
> surprise!) You are not whatever idea your mother had inside her
pretty
> little 1950's era head. You are whatever YOU decide you are at that
> particular moment in time and if you find yourself not being what
you would
> like to be, decide to be something else *for that ONE Particular
Moment in
> Time.* Seriously, break your life down into tiny little fragments
and
> catch yourself being who you want to be. Were you 'yourself' for
the past
> 2 minutes? Hey, that's Great! Now try for 3 minutes. (seriously
small
> fragments of time!) Get to really enjoy one specific thing about
yourself
> each day and concentrate on that one thing. It can be your
exquisite
> little toe or the way you cross your t's, singing off-key in the
most
> atrocious manner. Choose something you enjoy about yourself. Be
you and
> recognize you.
>
> Okay, so the underlying guilt and other assorted
> not-meeting-up-to-mommy's-expectations complexes will take some
time to get
> through. In the meantime, let's play with the food. You're going
to
> deschool eating... or is it, defood? C'mon, defooding is FUN! (and
tasty!)
>
> Firstly, there is no such thing as 'bad' food. (Unless you're
allergic,
> perhaps.) All food is good. All food is good for you, if it fills
a need
> for you, and until you decide that it is not filling the need and
something
> else might fill it better... but you can't decide that yet, because
you're
> still seeing yourself being 'voracious' about certain foods. So,
for now,
> buy more of those foods so you will *never* run out of it.
>
> I'm serious. If your body cries out for cookies, buy 10 bags of
> cookies. Bake cookies until they overflow from your counter, until
you
> have to step around the containers of cookies to make dinner - or
have
> cookies for dinner! Make cakes with extra icing (excellent on
spoons!)
> Keep a HEAPING bowl of chocolate M&M's on the kitchen table. Put
them in
> pretty bowls and cookie jars. Eat them. Enjoy them. Decorate with
> them! Revel in them! Look at the guilt then toss it over your
> shoulder!!! There is NO guilt in eating what fills you. There is
NO such
> thing as a 'bad' food! If you want a food, it should be available
to
> you! (after all, would you limit your accessibility to books? Of
course
> not!) And be in the moment, as much as you can. Don't think about
the
> 'next step' or wonder how in the world you are eating this
particular food,
> just eat it, and enjoy it! Smack your lips!
>
> Here's a whiz-banger! If you are NOT enjoying the food you are
eating,
> STOP eating it, and figure out what you *would* enjoy! A different
> food? Something else? Just never, ever 'punish' yourself when you
are
> eating, and especially not afterwards. Food is Good. Think Good,
Tasty
> Food, Tasty Chocolate, Tasty Cookies! Good for You! (and until
you're
> solid in enjoying and welcoming your food, NEVER eat with someone
who beats
> themselves up for eating. Ever. You are worth more than that!)
>
> Allow yourself to be filled by what calls to you. When you have
eaten what
> you want, when you want, as much as you want for several
weeks/months,
> begin to pay closer attention to when you are full and to what kind
of food
> your body is asking for *at that moment*, but never limit yourself
to
> quantity or content. All food is Good! All I mean is that before
taking
> the next bite, ask, Do I crave this morsel? If so, Eat it! If
not, put it
> nearby, in case you change your mind and want it again. Maybe you
crave a
> different morsel and should eat that! You're de-fooding.
Everything is
> okay.
>
> Eat the things you crave now, until you begin to crave something
other than
> cookies, cake and chocolate, say, some sweet grapes. (You don't
crave them
> yet? Then don't eat them!) When you DO want the grapes (or
whatever) go
> out immediately and buy the most luscious grapes you can find - and
then
> buy some beautiful M&M's and cookies too! Put them together on the
same
> kitchen counter, all displayed as nicely as can be. When you are
hungry,
> stand for a moment and think, What Calls To Me Most? If it is the
cookies,
> Eat them! If it is the grapes, Eat them! If it is the M&M's, Eat
> them! If it is some of each, Eat them!
>
> It may take days. It may take weeks, months, or even years (if
you're
> stubborn about keeping the guilt thing, anyway) but one day you'll
wake up
> and you won't be interested in bingeing on your chocolates. You'll
> surprise yourself by throwing out old, stale candy - by even HAVING
stale
> candy! (believe me, I was surprised the first time!) You may
never be the
> biggest fruit-eater on the block, but who cares? We can't ALL be
the
> biggest fruit eaters - there wouldn't be enough fruit! Instead,
you'll be
> listening to your body and giving it what it needs and wants,
> wholeheartedly and WITHOUT the blasted guilt thing pushing it in
random
> directions.
>
> What you're working on is giving yourself a chance to really
experience
> what you've always thought you shouldn't have but wanted, which
will
> someday allow you to see if it's *really* deep-down what truly
calls to
> you, and by that time, you'll be so bored by the cookies, cakes and
> chocolates that they're just not interesting anymore. Other foods
will
> become more interesting... or maybe even other activities.
>
> Really.
>
> Nowadays, broccoli and asparagus are some of my favorite foods. I
> frequently prefer to eat them rather than chocolate, although we
keep cases
> of chocolate in the house in case anyone ever wants some. We're
never
> without, just as we're never without cheese and turkey lunchmeat...
and
> frequently we go days or weeks without touching them.
>
> Bon Appetit!
> HeidiWD
>
> "I prefer a person who will burn the flag and wrap themselves in
the
> constitution to a person who will burn the constitution and wrap
themselves
> in the flag" --- Molly Ivins

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/04/2003 08:08:43 Pacific Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:


> The part that has been huge for me in this scenerio is that they are only
> young for such a short time. I used to get so wrapped up with how tired I
> was. I now can talk myself through it. Work through the tiredness. I
> was never cuddled or babied at night, so I try and do that now with my
> kids.
>

Thank you for this , Kelli, it is the kind of encouragement I need with this
issue. It is odd, I know it could be better than it is, but don't know how to
get there. I have always stayed with my son till he is sleeping. I think I
want to help him move to a place where he knows if he is tired or not, and
will take care of his sleep needs.
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa M. C. Bentley

> I do need to do
> more self care, and I really like your method of de-fooding.

Someone on this list recommended the book "The 7 Secrets of Slim People"
by Vikki Hansen and Shawn Goodman.
I read it a week and a half ago (it is a quick and easy read) and it is
changing my life. They never use the word unschooling or undieting, but
that is what it is all about. You might enjoy it, too. Their advice is
very similar to what is being said on this list. It is amazing that
food issues for me have been so big, yet I've always respected my
children's relationship with food. My kids have taught me so much.

-Lisa in AZ

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/04/2003 08:56:17 Pacific Standard Time,
diamondair@... writes:


> Maybe talk to your son about what he'd like to do for bedtime and
> find something that will work for both of you. He'll eventually
> learn to know when he's tired.
>

There's a bolt from the blue, include him in the process. DUH
Thanks Robin. I appreciate your post. It gave me lots to work with.
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/04/2003 08:57:22 Pacific Standard Time,
nellebelle@... writes:


>
> I haven't read this book in a while, but it was once one of my favorites:
> How to Get Your Kid to Eat but Not Too Much, by Ellyn Satter. I recommend
> this book to any adult who has food issues. Read it and think of yourself
> as the kid while you are reading.
>
>

That is one I have in my library, and it was very poignant to me when I first
read it, I will go back to it, thanks for suggesting it.
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/1/2003 3:21:29 PM Central Standard Time,
andrea@... writes:


> Hey, we don't have a car - by choice!
>
> I hesitate to bring this up in any situation because I find that, more than
>
> homeschooling, more than breastfeeding, more than any other crazy idea I
> have, this issue makes people defensive.
>

Really??? I'd love to get to the point of having no car. Hard to believe
the car issue is a hot botton for folks. But we did get a lot of flack for
not buying an SUV!

Elizabeth


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nancylowrie

i found you plenty eloquent, Shyrley. Thanks for your response. I am
really enjoying all the responses, feels not so lonely and
freakish!! --- In [email protected], Shyrley
<shyrley.williams@v...> wrote:
>
>
> nancylowrie wrote:
>
> > so there is much guilt. I am trying to rid
> > myself of that. But I think it has certainly affected the way I
> > parent.How do I let go off this for my children if I am still
> > punishing myself??
>
> The first stage you've already done. Seen the connection. Many
people can't or wont make that connection between what happened to
them at children and how they parent. You've been able to explore and
> had the courage to see.
>
> > I enjoyed what Sandra wrote about the inner child
> > but am not sure how to implement that. Anyone else dealing with
this?
> > And the eating thing is overwhelming. I am definitely a compulsive
> > overeater, and am not sure how to handle the free reign with food
> > issue for my son. He seems to have the same food issues that I
had,
> > not able to leave chocolate alone, must eat any cake or cookies in
> > the house voraciously till they are gone, I know I have caused
these
> > things, but how do I help him and trust him when I can't trust
> > myself? Again, anyone else dealing with this type of stuff?
>
> I'm not sure how the proffessionals deal with it but (after seeing
professionals for years and getting nowhere) I did the following to
get rid of anorexia and depression (still working on the depression
> but then I'm a slow learner....)
> Firtsly I stopped controlling food. I gave myself permission to eat
what and when I liked. For the first month or so I ate nothing but
choclate and cookies. My body craved those things I had been
> denying myself. It was hard and I was afraid it would never stop
and that I would turn into a whale. Gradually the craving changed to
bananas. Basically, over the first 6 months it was weird, I craved
> all sorts of things. I also felt guilty (having a diet obsessed
MIL doesn't help. I banned her from my life as a negative thing but
thats a whole nother story - she thought anorexia was great cos it
> made you thin!)
> I also learned to appreciate that my body was the way it was. I
took it for walks, strated bike-riding.
>
> It's not easy letting go of all that guilt, control etc and for a
while you might feel that it means you get out of control but
gradually everything balances back. It could take a year or so before
it
> does which is why many people give up. They want an instant fix but
years of controlling and years of a bad relationship with food
doesn't disappear over-night unfortunately.
> I also found a good councellor (sp?) helped. She talked me through
the issues with my mother until I could say no to that internal voice
of my mothers telling me I wasn't good enough, that nothing I did
> was ever right.
>
> Well, hope that gave you some starting points. You've done the
first step which is in some ways the hardest. Now all you have to do
is jump :-)
>
> Shyrley who wishes she was more eloquent (and could spell)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca DeLong

We don't have a car either, by choice. Just about everyone we know can't understand how we can possibly be happy with out one, and they all ask us when we're gonna get one.
Rebecca
Andrea <andrea@...> wrote:
At 11:17 AM 4/1/03 -0500, Shyrley wrote:
>When we ditch the car :-)

Hey, we don't have a car - by choice!

I hesitate to bring this up in any situation because I find that, more than
homeschooling, more than breastfeeding, more than any other crazy idea I
have, this issue makes people defensive.

Donna Andrea in Nova Scotia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/1/03 4:20:22 PM, cottrellbentley@... writes:

<< Someone on this list recommended the book "The 7 Secrets of Slim People" >>

I haven't read it but am kinda interested.

There is undoubtedly a lot of genetic predisposition to weight as well as
height, and we can never really know for sure what would a person would have
looked like body-wise if he'd never been held (short or scrawny from neglect)
or had been a cave-boy (lots of activity and raw-everything) or had or hadn't
been given freedom to choose foods.

My husband was pudgy to fat all his life, coming and going. He's pretty
traumatized about it.

I was a skinny to average kid, started to pudge in college, 140 at 30 (5'4")
had babies, didn't lose weight, coming to look like my granny, who lost
weight again when she was older, 205...

So I never gained weight until I was way grown.

My daughter has so far been truly slim and we say things to indicate that
might not always be so. Not in scary way or threatening way or ominous way,
but reminding people that bodies change and there's no sense getting attached
to one's appearance or hair color (or hair <g>), just kinda casual reminders.
"If you're still skinny when you're grown..." not "Holly is [and always
will be defined as] thin."

Marty and Kirby have gone back and forth between pudgy and newly-tall. Kirby
has a little belly on him. Marty at the moment doesn't, but has kinda
love-handle waist. And Marty has stretch marks from some period when he
pudged out quickly. I have no idea how they will settle out. But I *DO*
know that my husband, at their age, was fat like a big football player kind
of size, hiked and marched and played football and heard his mother rag on
sneaking food. Keith did.
Kirby's not ragged on for not being skinny.
Marty isn't either.

It's the best I know how to do. If they don't grow up buff-boys and want to
blame me, they can. But they won't be binging and sneaking to get as many
hamburgers and french fries as they can before they're caught. They won't be
eating quarts of ice cream alone in secret, because it has to be finished to
destroy the evidence.

Sandra

Kelly Lenhart

>People truly freak out over the "You don't
>drive????" thing, but everytime I think about getting my license
>(usually after my mom or MIL nags me), I know that if I _could_ drive I
>probably _would_ drive and I'd be polluting the streets more than they
>already are. I just haven't been able to bring myself to do that yet.
>Sorcha

I haven't had a license all this time and it was in part to remind me that I
WAS making a choice. ANd yes, I got the same looks and questions. No one
would believe it.

Kelly

the_clevengers

--- In [email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
> I can't imagine why anyone would be offended by someone not having
a
> car, but I can't imagine how awful it would be. We live 35 minutes
> from the closest mall. When we go to our homeopath appointment,
it's
> an hour drive and we're there for at least an hour.
>
> Where I live, you can't walk to the grocery store or the library or
> really anywhere.


Like many things, it can be awful or great, depending on where you
live and your life choices. Where we lived in the Seattle area was
terrible for bicycling. I biked to work at Microsoft, but always felt
I was taking my life in my own hands. Bike lanes were few, and the
ones that existed didn't connect to anything. Drivers were rude
and/or dangerous. Once I had kids, I knew it was not safe to bike
with them on the roads. We put at least 40 miles a day on our car,
just getting around town, to playdates, park, library, and shopping.
To me, this lifestyle just seemed terrible (I know it is not to many,
but it drove me nuts). So, we moved! Took a massive cut in income,
but moved someplace that has great support for biking. The first year
we moved here, we put over 10,000 *fewer* miles on our car, which I
worked out to be about 250 hours, or about 11 days less we spend in
the car, per year. To me, that makes it worth it. We have eleven more
days to spend doing things we like! Almost nothing here is more than
5 miles away from us - library is 2, store is 1/4 mile, farthest
friend is 3.5 - it's great!

Above all, if biking is important to people, they can get involved in
making it more accessible. We took the route of moving to a bike
friendly community, but the transformation that happened here can
happen elsewhere as well. I love the fact that every day of the year,
I'm never the only bicyclist on the road here. Even in the pouring
rain, there's plenty of crazy two-wheelers about.

http://home.connection.com/~regan/lanes.html
(link to Getting bike lanes & bike facilities in your community)

Blue Skies,

-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/1/03 10:26:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:

> It all has to do with listening to your body,

LOL Kelli, calling it deFooding, I call it UNdieting :0) i totally agree with
the whole concept, but I still struggle with only eating when I am hungry. I
refuse to diet though~~

Ang


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/04/2003 19:02:41 Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> They won't be
> eating quarts of ice cream alone in secret, because it has to be finished
> to
> destroy the evidence.
>

Good for you Sandra. I polished of 6 donuts the other day, because I was
alone and stressed out. So far my son shows no signs of this, but i am hoping
to deal with my stuff in order to avoid it for him.
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

Who says you should only eat when you are hungry?

Eat when it sounds and feels good to you to eat. Stop when you don't want
to anymore. When you are satisfied.

Anyway, how would you define hungry? A little bit hungry? Starving?

Food and eating are not just for survival. They are also for pleasure and
for socializing. We certainly don't have sex only we want to have a child!

Mary Ellen

----- snip----- , but I still struggle with only eating when I am
hungry.>>>>>>>>>

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/04/2003 23:38:03 Pacific Standard Time,
heidi@... writes:


> and what kind were
> they? I *love* cake/baked donuts!)
>

Glazed old fashioned cake donuts!! I am a purist when I go bad.
Thanks again for the kind words. You know it's funny how I treat myself so
harshly, and would never do that to a friend. I like your way of describing
how to reinforce the good and leave the rest behind. I will save this one.
You might find it a little chilly to move up here, got an inch of snow
yesterday! But you are welcome.
Nancy


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