flyerkat

Jana Eagle <jana@...> wrote:

I think TV does work for many families, but for my own reasons I
decided to get rid of it... having it completely gone was a lot
easier for me than trying to sift through the programming in order to
find shows that were worth watching. There weren't very many. I am
also highly selective with books I pick out to read... I just find
that there is so much over-stimulation these days that I want my home
to be a refuge from the media.

I am not sure why people say that they can have unrestricted TV in
their house *and* also find the time to do all the other things they
want to do with their kids. I say, "Bravo!" if you can do that. I
sure can't. It is my experience that the television watching directly
interferes with contact with other human beings, contact with the
natural world, and relaxing and getting enough sleep, among other
things. It directly interfered with or replaced story-telling, music,
walks outdoors, and the like in our family, all things that I love and
my daughter loves. The other thing I hated about television was that
when we did have it, it was too easy for me to use it as a babysitter.

I do think television is addictive-- our physiology has no way of
dealing with it, because it is so different
than anything in nature, and believe it or not, we have evolved over
millenia to be part of nature.
i haven't read any of the anti-TV books, but these are some of my
thoughts anyway.


>>>>>> I agree with Jana. I sure don't look down on those who do
watch, but I think it makes my job harder. They turn into little
zombies and I can't get anyones attention.

Sorcha

>>>They turn into little
zombies and I can't get anyones attention.<<<

Really? Our TV is always on. Even when my oldest was under two and
everyone warned me he shouldn't be exposed to any TV at all until he was
at least two and then only two hours a day at the most. We turn it on
in the morning and turn it off before bed. None of us has become a
zombie. All I have to do to get the kids' attention is sit on the couch
with a book and start reading aloud. They'll scramble over and climb
onto my lap.

Last night I made finger paints. Twice. (I burned the first batch).
They were watching Rocky and Bullwinkle with their dad. I wanted them
to wait until morning to finger paint because I was tired and didn't
want the clean-up. But I couldn't get them to go back to watching the
movie once they knew there was finger paint.

I don't know how many times I've been playing outside with them, and I
wanted to head home so I'd try to bribe them by saying we could watch a
special video or TV show. It has never worked. TV can't compete with
playing in the dirt with toy bulldozers and dump trucks. But then
again, when the sun goes down and they have to be inside, they could
stay up late if they really wanted to watch a video. I guess that's the
difference. The videos will always be there and they know they can
watch them whenever they want.

Sorcha



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 3/25/03 6:36:59 AM, flyerrod@... writes:

<< I sure don't look down on those who do

watch, but I think it makes my job harder. They turn into little

zombies and I can't get anyones attention. >>

If you're not more interestig than TV, then they should watch TV.

If they seem to be little zombies, it's most likely because they are
engrossed in something they're learning from.

In schools, teachers sometimes paper over or paint over windows so the kids
won't stare out the window, so they can get the kid' attention.

If you have to paint over the TV window to get your kids' attention, maybe
you're thinking in teacher terms and believing they have to "pay attention"
to you to learn?

Maybe not, but think about that as a possible factor.

If you see your job as an unschooling mom as facilitating their learnig, they
can learn a lot from TV, and you should watch it with them so you can discuss
phrases they don't know, references to literature or songs or people they
don't know, discuss situations and motivation.

If you see your job as a traditional teacher who needs to get their attention
to do your job, then your job WILL be hard. But if you want to unschool,
videos and TV will make your job easier.

Sandra

Kelli Traaseth

SandraDodd@... wrote:

**If you're not more interestig than TV, then they should watch TV.**



Oh, dear, then right now I'm not more interesting than the new Ruby version Pokemon game my son is playing. <g> <sigh>



Kelli






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sablehs

--- Sorcha <sorcha-aisling@...> wrote:
Our TV is always on. Even when my oldest was under two
> and
> everyone warned me he shouldn't be exposed to any TV at all until
> he was
> at least two and then only two hours a day at the most. We turn
> it on
> in the morning and turn it off before bed. None of us has become
> a
> zombie.



All I have to do to get the kids' attention is sit on the
> couch
> with a book and start reading aloud. They'll scramble over and
> climb
> onto my lap.
>
TV can't compete
> with
> playing in the dirt with toy bulldozers and dump trucks. But then
> again, when the sun goes down and they have to be inside, they
> could
> stay up late if they really wanted to watch a video. I guess
> that's the
> difference. The videos will always be there and they know they
> can
> watch them whenever they want.
>
{nods} We have the same experiance in our house. Most of the time
they are off doing other stuff.
Going on a berry hunt, going on a berry hunt ~ gonna pick some juicy
ones, gonna pick some juicy ones ~ We're not scared, We're not
scared ~ What a BEAUUUUTIFUL day. {dora}
Tracy

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In a message dated 3/25/03 10:06:12 AM, kellitraas@... writes:

<< Oh, dear, then right now I'm not more interesting than the new Ruby
version Pokemon game my son is playing. <g> <sigh>
>>

There's no shame in that. Engineers and artists worked long and hard to make
that interesting, and they built on all the gaming knowledge that went before
them.

He can't play it forever, though. You'll get another turn for his affections.

Kirby's new Zelda game is in today, 11:00. He has the receipt in his wallet
and my van's in the shop and he's not here.

Here is Kirby Dodd's schedule today:
Driver's ed from 9:00 to 1:00 (he walked up and will walk back; its half a
mile)
1:30 to 3:30, home.
eat
call girlfriend who called last night from where she's visiting her mom in
Texas over break
get ready for karate
3:30 or maybe sooner get Keith to take him to karate, stopping by gamestop to
get the Zelda game which has been paid for for two months or more
teach a class
take a class
come home and start playing Zelda

stop playing Zelda and watch 24 with me

Play Zelda until he goes to sleep too late, and gets up to walk to driver's
ed at 9:00 tomorrow.

That's a lot of other life on a Zelda day. But he's mature now, and can wait
another few hours without freaking, especially since the official release
date was the 26th and it came in early.

Sandra

Sandra

kayb85

> Kirby's new Zelda game is in today, 11:00. He has the receipt in
his wallet
> and my van's in the shop and he's not here.

Dh wants to know how Kirby knows the game comes in today at 11:00,
because he has pre-ordered Zelda and hasn't gotten a call yet. He's
very anxious. :)

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/25/03 11:12:10 AM, sheran@... writes:

<< Dh wants to know how Kirby knows the game comes in today at 11:00,

because he has pre-ordered Zelda and hasn't gotten a call yet. He's

very anxious. :) >>

We got a call Sunday from the shop saying he could pick it up after 11:00 on
Tuesday.
I didn't know enough to ask exciting questions! I just said "Okay, I'll tell
him. Thanks."

Sorry. <g>

Sandra

kayb85

Thanks. :) I'll tell dh to be patient as he awaits his call. ;)

Sheila


> We got a call Sunday from the shop saying he could pick it up after
11:00 on
> Tuesday.
> I didn't know enough to ask exciting questions! I just said "Okay,
I'll tell
> him. Thanks."
>
> Sorry. <g>
>
> Sandra

24hrmom

LOL!! My eldest son Joseph just turned 11 yesterday and this morning we went out and he picked up Pokemon Ruby with some of his birthday money. He said it would keep him busy today while he waits for the release of Zelda tomorrow .. which we pre-ordered about a month ago. He has already told us that he will be busy for a few days once he gets it. ;) But it's true that a lot of other life goes on, not the least of which is a lot of research! While he's playing Ruby he's also listening to me read the last 6 chapters of Harry Potter #4 ... it's our third time through it. In fact, we know once we start "The Third Task" chapter that we can't stop until the end so we've waited a couple of days through the birthday gatherings before settling in to read the end. The first time we read the book we were up until 3am finishing it!

I'm on a quick break right now while my daughter Alyssa (8), helps my youngest son Michael (5) with a puzzle in his Scooby Doo computer game, which he's playing while I read. My daughter likes to concentrate really hard while listening (she is totally into HP) so she asked me to stop while she helps out.

Oh, I've been called ... time to get back! It seems I've posted quickly a couple times now, and though I've been lurking/reading for months (and learning TONS!!), I haven't done "official" intro. I'll try to get to that soon.

Pam L
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re: plug-in drug/ruby version



In a message dated 3/25/03 10:06:12 AM, kellitraas@... writes:

<< Oh, dear, then right now I'm not more interesting than the new Ruby
version Pokemon game my son is playing. <g> <sigh>
>>

There's no shame in that. Engineers and artists worked long and hard to make
that interesting, and they built on all the gaming knowledge that went before
them.

He can't play it forever, though. You'll get another turn for his affections.

Kirby's new Zelda game is in today, 11:00. He has the receipt in his wallet
and my van's in the shop and he's not here.

Here is Kirby Dodd's schedule today:
Driver's ed from 9:00 to 1:00 (he walked up and will walk back; its half a
mile)
1:30 to 3:30, home.
eat
call girlfriend who called last night from where she's visiting her mom in
Texas over break
get ready for karate
3:30 or maybe sooner get Keith to take him to karate, stopping by gamestop to
get the Zelda game which has been paid for for two months or more
teach a class
take a class
come home and start playing Zelda

stop playing Zelda and watch 24 with me

Play Zelda until he goes to sleep too late, and gets up to walk to driver's
ed at 9:00 tomorrow.

That's a lot of other life on a Zelda day. But he's mature now, and can wait
another few hours without freaking, especially since the official release
date was the 26th and it came in early.


Sandra

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Kelli Traaseth

24hrmom <24hrmom@...> wrote:
**My eldest son Joseph**

Does he happen to write on the unschooling message board? under the gameboy folder? If so I think he has written to my son.

We don't have Zelda, but I thought it looked cool!

Kelli

And we are reading Harry Potter 4 also! Alec, my ds 10, has read it 3 times, I havn't read it before so my dd(8) and I are loving it.




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Karin

> Thanks. :) I'll tell dh to be patient as he awaits his call. ;)
>
> Sheila


Or you could just call the store.
That's what we did when my kids were anxiously awaiting the new Pokemon Ruby
and Sapphire.
It was supposed to be in and we still hadn't heard anything.
So I called and asked if it was in and they said "yeah, we have it. We were
just getting ready to call you."

We left within half an hour to go to the game store. ;-)

Karin

Karin

> 24hrmom <24hrmom@...> wrote:
> **My eldest son Joseph**
>
> Does he happen to write on the unschooling message board? under the
gameboy folder? If so I think he has written to my son.
>
> We don't have Zelda, but I thought it looked cool!
>
> Kelli
>


My son Ben writes in the gameboy folder all the time.

Karin

Kelli Traaseth

Oh, yeah, Karin, I think it was Ben who wrote in the hint for Alec.

Alec was very aggravated with Ruby, he thought it was too hard. He wanted to turn it in. I suggested he write a question to the guys in the gameboy folder, he thought it was too new, that no one would have any suggestions. But Ben did!
Cool!

You'll have to tell Ben that Alec is now having a blast with the ruby again.

Do you live in Arizona? I think I remember reading that from Ben. My husband and I were talking about living somewhere warmer and Arizona came up. I have an aunt that lives in Payson. It sounds beautiful there.

Kelli

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Kelly Lenhart

>Oh, dear, then right now I'm not more interesting than the new Ruby
version Pokemon game my son is >laying. <g> <sigh>
>Kelli

Oh, please, I've been infinately less interesting that ANYTHING Yugiho for
MONTHS!!!!

Kelly

Karin

> Oh, yeah, Karin, I think it was Ben who wrote in the hint for Alec.
>
> Alec was very aggravated with Ruby, he thought it was too hard. He
wanted to turn it in. I suggested he write a question to the guys in the
gameboy folder, he thought it was too new, that no one would have any
suggestions. But Ben did!
> Cool!
>
> You'll have to tell Ben that Alec is now having a blast with the ruby
again.


I told Ben and he's glad it helped Alec. So am I! I know how frustrating it
is to be stuck in a game. That happens all the time to my boys and they go
searching for hints on various websites to help them through the games. If
Alec ever runs into some more problems, I'm sure Ben will be glad to help if
he can. He and my other son really love playing their gba's and also the PS2
and Gamecube.


> Do you live in Arizona? I think I remember reading that from Ben. My
husband and I were talking about living > somewhere warmer and Arizona came
up. I have an aunt that lives in Payson. It sounds beautiful there.

>
> Kelli


Yeah, we live in Phoenix, Arizona. It's definitely warmer here! ;-)
Today it's in the mid 80's and clear blue skies. My boys already filled up
our inflatable pool so they could sit in the freezing cold water (WAY too
cold for me!) and they also had fun with a homemade slip n' slide made out
of shower curtains.

We've been up to Payson many times, most often just to drive through on our
way to other places, but I'm very familiar with it. It *is* very beautiful
up there. Payson is a 1 1/2 hr drive from Phoenix but they get snow and have
pine trees. It's a desirable place to have a cabin in the summer - or live
year round if you can.

Karin

flyerkat

From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: re: plug-in drug

<If you're not more interestig than TV, then they should watch TV.

That wasnt very nice...

<If they seem to be little zombies, it's most likely because they are
<engrossed in something they're learning from.

I'm talking about some of the seemingly mindless cartoon dribble that
has no obvious value. (Is this where you are now going to tell me it
has great value in some way?) I dont mean that rudely, I just seem
to be getting this all wrong.

<In schools, teachers sometimes paper over or paint over windows so
<the kids won't stare out the window, so they can get the kid'
<attention.

<If you have to paint over the TV window to get your kids' attention,
<maybe you're thinking in teacher terms and believing they have
<to "pay attention" to you to learn?

When I said I cant get their attention, I meant even to ask them
where something is or if they wanted breakfast, etc.

_____________________________________________________________________

Mary

From: flyerkat
<<I'm talking about some of the seemingly mindless cartoon dribble that
has no obvious value. (Is this where you are now going to tell me it
has great value in some way?) I dont mean that rudely, I just seem
to be getting this all wrong.>>

How exactly do you know what your child is getting or not getting out of what they are watching? Just because you see it as mindless dribble doesn't mean it is to them. Sometimes literally weeks or months go by before one of my children will come up with something that they saw on tv. Possibly something I might have looked at as insignificant but definitely something that caught their interest and they stored away for later. I can't see how you think what your children are watching has no value. If that's the case, then you don't trust them to make wise choices and it sounds as if you think they possibly can't because of what interests them on tv. That's not a good start to unschooling.




<<When I said I cant get their attention, I meant even to ask them
where something is or if they wanted breakfast, etc.>>

Our kitchen is right next to the playroom. We have a large pass through window. I'm literally standing right there all day as I seem to always be in the kitchen. So for breakfast and lunch and dinner and snacks, I'm standing right there asking what they want. I sometimes have to ask 3-4 times, raising my voice slightly each time. Sometimes after that, I kind of holler quickly the name of the person I need an answer from. They are just really into what they are watching. Or sometimes just what they are doing. I don't see it as a big deal. My husband does the same thing to me now while he's watching the war stuff on tv. Totally engrossed and not in tune with anything else. Again, so what? If I have something important to say, I walk around and stand briefly in front of the tv, asking if they can listen to me for a minute. They'll either say yes or ask me to wait. Catching their eye helps me to see that they hear what I need them to hear. We're not a house of you come when I call and you listen when I talk.

Mary B




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 3/25/03 7:09:22 PM, flyerrod@... writes:

<< When I said I cant get their attention, I meant even to ask them

where something is or if they wanted breakfast, etc. >>

Maybe they're not very hungry.
Really.

I'm not trying to be rude. Unschooling works way better when you go by the
children instead of by the clock. Is it time to eat? Why?

If the show they're watching is more important than food at that moment, then
why try to feed them?

I'm not saying don't feed your kids. I'm asking you to think about why you
would ask them to stop doing one thing in order to another one.

If you're meeting people for breakfast at 8:00, then that's important. If
you're home with kids for the purpose of natural learning, family
togetherness, peace and love, then why not let them do what they're doing
until they want to do something else?

They have the biological means to know when they're hungry.

-=-<If you're not more interestig than TV, then they should watch TV.


-=-That wasnt very nice...-=-

It's not about nice or not nice. It's about your children and the realities
of their learning and their interest and whether it's important for them to
stop watching television long enough to do something else. It depends what
the something else is.

Even if I had never been born, it's true that children should do what's most
interesting and stimulating and facinating for them. That will lead to
learning and happiness and security and joy.

Sandra

Stephanie Elms

> >>>>>> I agree with Jana. I sure don't look down on those who do
> watch, but I think it makes my job harder. They turn into little
> zombies and I can't get anyones attention.

You know what? This was exactly Jason to a "T" until I gave him unlimited access to tv.
He used to be able to watch 1 hr/day and was a very passive watcher...sat there and stared.
Did not do much anything else. Couldn't get his attention while he was watching. When he
went to a friends house, if the tv was on, he would sit there and stare and not play
until it was turned off. One of the reasons that I restricted tv was because of reading
of how hypnotizing it was and how passive....the way that Jason watched seemed to prove
this argument.

Since we gave up the restrictions on tv back in october, things have changed quite a bit.
He no longer is a passive watcher (unless he is really tired). He is usually doing something
else while watching...playing with his little brother, playing with his legos, jumping
on his mini trampoline. If I start doing something interesting he more then likely joins in
(never would have happened before until he had watched his hour of tv). When his grandparents
were down, the tv pretty much stayed off (my ILs are great with the boys). Before he always
watched his 1 hr no matter what. He also will gladly turn off the tv (unless in the middle
of a favorite show) and has lately started turning it off himself when he has had enough.

We have tivo and tape everything so we are not controlled by the tv schedule. I go through
the online tivo guide each weekend and look for things that I think he might be interested
in (this is in addition to the regular shows that we tape). Jason has learned so much from
the shows we have watched (as have I) not to mention the enjoyment he has gotten out of it.
Many of the tv shows have led to ongoing interests...his 6+ month fascination with Egypt/
mummies etc, robotics, thomas edison, experiments we have done after watching Bill Nye,
comparing books to movies (he really liked watching the Wizard of Oz and seeing what they
left out...reinforced how much more fun the books are!)...

But above all what I really like about lifting restrictions on tv has been the freedom that
we have...I no longer feel guilty for letting him watch tv and no longer make him feel bad
for wanting to watch it. It has removed battles between us and decreased the importance of
tv for Jason. Yes, we watch more tv then 1 hr/day but it is no longer the most important
1 hr of the day for Jason. Hope that this makes sense.

Just our experience...

Stephanie E.

Stephanie Elms

> I don't know how many times I've been playing outside with them, and I
> wanted to head home so I'd try to bribe them by saying we
> could watch a
> special video or TV show. It has never worked.

Oh yeah...I also forgot to mention that since giving up restrictions on tv I have lost
my surefire way of getting something done! It used to be if I really needed to get
something done all I had to do was turn on the tv and I could get uninterrupted time
to do what I needed. No longer! I have actually been known to mutter sometimes "can't you
guys just go watch tv or something" LOL!

Stephanie E.
>

MARK and JULIE SOLICH

> Maybe they're not very hungry.
> Really.
>
> I'm not trying to be rude. Unschooling works way better when you go by
the
> children instead of by the clock. Is it time to eat? Why?
>
> If the show they're watching is more important than food at that moment,
then
> why try to feed them?
>
> I'm not saying don't feed your kids. I'm asking you to think about why
you
> would ask them to stop doing one thing in order to another one.
>
> If you're meeting people for breakfast at 8:00, then that's important. If
> you're home with kids for the purpose of natural learning, family
> togetherness, peace and love, then why not let them do what they're doing
> until they want to do something else?
>
> They have the biological means to know when they're hungry.
>
> So true! I was waking the kids up so that we could breakfast at 8am, have
jobs done by 9am and sit down to lessons at 9:30! Since we stopped all that
and started unschooling, I've let them determine when they are hungry.
They've been eating later (around 9:30-10am) but they are eating all the
food on their plate instead of having a few mouthfuls and leaving the rest
which used to drive me crazy!!

Julie
>
>
>
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the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
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> [email protected]
>
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

MARK and JULIE SOLICH

> You know what? This was exactly Jason to a "T" until I gave him unlimited
access to tv.
> He used to be able to watch 1 hr/day and was a very passive watcher...sat
there and stared.
> Did not do much anything else. Couldn't get his attention while he was
watching. When he
> went to a friends house, if the tv was on, he would sit there and stare
and not play
> until it was turned off. One of the reasons that I restricted tv was
because of reading
> of how hypnotizing it was and how passive....the way that Jason watched
seemed to prove
> this argument.
>
> Since we gave up the restrictions on tv back in october, things have
changed quite a bit.
> He no longer is a passive watcher (unless he is really tired). He is
usually doing something
> else while watching...playing with his little brother, playing with his
legos, jumping
> on his mini trampoline. >

> Stephanie E.

I've just realized that when my boys were little and were able to watch
videos all day if they liked, I would get annoyed because they played around
it and didn't seem to be watching it. then when we restricted their viewing
they would sit passively in front of it and I would worry about them
becoming little zombies. My poor children!
Oh well, I am learning to think so maybe they'll be okay!! LOL

Julie
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
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email to:
> [email protected]
>
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Stephanie Elms

> How exactly do you know what your child is getting or not
> getting out of what they are watching? Just because you see
> it as mindless dribble doesn't mean it is to them.

My hubby does not understand my obsession with rubber stamping...he sees it as
cutting and pasting and making cards. Big deal. I see it as a creative outlet.
I love the creating process, deciding what stamps to use, picking colors, learning
new techniques. Thank goodness he does see that I enjoy it. We would be having major
problems if he decided that it was mindless dribble and forbade me to do it or spend
any money on it.

I don't get his fascination with cars and why he bought a Prowler that now sits in
our garage and only gets driven on days when there is no chance of rain or snow.
Makes no sense to me, but he gets a lot of enjoyment out of it...

I could easily see my son's interest in bionicles as unimportant (i.e., uneducational).
But I don't and I try to foster it as it brings him great joy and I could write quite
a bit of what he has learned from playing mindless bionicle computer games and read
mindless bionicle comics....

Stephanie E

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/25/03 9:36:23 PM, mjsolich@... writes:

<< I've just realized that when my boys were little and were able to watch

videos all day if they liked, I would get annoyed because they played around

it and didn't seem to be watching it. then when we restricted their viewing

they would sit passively in front of it and I would worry about them

becoming little zombies. My poor children! >>

I still remember the very first online homeschooling TV debate I was ever,
ever in. It was on *Prodigy, which was more like a newsgroup (and maybe this
WAS on a newsgroup, I forget). It wasn't just unschoolers. Someone said
"zombie" or its equivalent, and "passive," and I said my kids weren't that
they asked questions and sang and danced and jumped up and re-wound. We had
been watching The Sound of Music a lot that week, and I said they were
learning all the songs, and it was very active.

Someone gave me a very snooty and sniffy response. I will try to imitate it;
wish I had kept it.

**ahem**

'WE don't consider it acceptable for someone to interrupt a movie by getting
up or talking. When others are watching a movie we expect OUR children to be
quiet so as not to disturb others who would like to hear the dialog.'

Darn, I wish I had the exact quote. It was better and more
attempt-at-withering than that.

I was stunned and thought "WELL! If parents are stupid, yes, children are
likely to be zombies genetically and especially if the rules say they HAVE to
be." But I didn't say it. I knew I was surrounded by structure-fiends who
thought unschoolers were ungodly lazy-butts.

I saw The Sound of Music in 1966 at the Lensic theatre in Santa Fe. Our
church took a batch of young teens. I invited Frank Garcia, who was Catholic
(generally defeating their purpose for the Baptist-teen outing) and held his
hand through most of it. We were VERY quiet through that whole long show
because the theatre was entirely full and it was a theatre and it was 1966.

The movie works much better when it can be watched in sections, re-winding
the songs, acting out the dances, talking about whether there's a guitar in
that case she's swinging around with such gusto, and so forth.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/25/03 10:09:57 PM, stephanie.elms@...
writes:

<< I could write quite

a bit of what he has learned from playing mindless bionicle computer games
and read

mindless bionicle comics.... >>

If there are mindless bionicle comics, Marty doesn't have the whole set! His
are pretty cool, even to the eyes of a cyborg/robot-transformer-averse mom.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 3/25/03 9:08 PM, flyerkat at flyerrod@... wrote:

> <If you're not more interestig than TV, then they should watch TV.
>
> That wasnt very nice...

It's meant to make you think. If your husband started spending long hours at
work, then there's probably something that he needs that he's finding at
work and not at home.

If your children are watching TV (reading books, riding skateboards) rather
than doing other things, then it means they're getting something from TV
(reading books, riding skateboards) that they aren't getting elsewhere. It's
our job to make sure their lives are rich enough that they do have other
options so they aren't watching TV because there isn't anything better.

Kids will play with rocks and dirt if they don't have anything else to play
with. And adults will think this is a sign that their imaginations are being
stretched. So should we deprive children of toys so parents can see them
using their imaginations? Or should we as parents find out what it is that
kids see and need and want in the things they are drawn to and help them
find more of that.

We can't see what children are getting from TV. It looks like nothing is
going on. But their brains are working. They're absorbing the stories and
the character interactions. It's even more powerful when they have someone
to share it with.

> I'm talking about some of the seemingly mindless cartoon dribble that
> has no obvious value.

What if your husband looked at something you found value in and judged it
that way?

If we don't see value in what a spouse loves doing, we trust that they do
find value in it. And if we want to be closer to them, we spend time with
them, ask questions and try to see what it is that they see. Not necessarily
so we will like it too, but so we can understand why they like it and find
out more about them.

Why should we treat our children in ways that we would feel is disrespectful
and hurtful coming from our spouse?

There are huge numbers of things that children do that seem in adult eyes to
be mindless drivel or to at least have no "educational" value. Swinging on
swings, playing in the dirt, banging on pots, pretending to fly. And, in
fact, when you think about it, much of even good children¹s literature. What
do children learn from Winnie-the-Pooh, Peter Pan, Wizard of Oz?

My daughter has been drawing since she could pick up a marker. At about age
7 she seemed to regress. She spent a whole year doing books of "snowflakes"
and scribbles. Really crude snowflakes, like big full page asterisks in
various colors. Books 5 to 10 pages long of stuff 2 yos could do. Why? I
have no clue. She did very little other drawing. Then one day she saw a
stapler on the floor and drew this really amazing rendering of it. Far
better than anything she had done before her snowflake period. I have no
idea what was going on with the snowflakes but it was something she needed
and it was powerful.

Children are designed to learn. They are drawn to what helps them understand
and explore the world. We need to trust that they know what they need.

It's not up to us to decide what is best for them, or what is more
learningful. If that approach worked, then schools would work like a charm.
It is up to us to bring the world to them so they can choose what they need
from a variety of things. If what they choose is TV then that's what they
need.

> When I said I cant get their attention, I meant even to ask them
> where something is or if they wanted breakfast, etc.

If I'm reading or writing there have been many times that my family has had
to ask me something a few times before I actually hear them. In fact I've
been known to respond and then return to what I was doing to finish up and
then get engrossed again.

> I do think television is addictive-- our physiology has no way of
> dealing with it, because it is so different

For a theory to hold water it has to explain all the data, not just the data
that support it. Our children's behavior around TV indicates your theory has
holes in it. Our children can watch as much as they want and they pick and
choose and turn it off when they're done. Sometimes they'll watch for days.
Sometimes they won't even turn it on. They treat it as they do any other
resource like books and toys and outside activities.

They aren't allowed freedom *because* they turn it off. They turn it off
because they have freedom. The children who do use tv as a resource who were
restricted before usually spent a lot of time engrossed in the TV when the
restrictions were lifted. Eventually, when they realized that it wouldn't be
restricted again and they'd had their fill, they felt confident that they
could turn it off and they could turn it back on anytime they needed to.

> I think TV does work for many families, but for my own reasons I
> decided to get rid of it...

What about your children's reasons? What if you found value in something,
like a sewing machine or microwave, and your husband decided to get rid of
it for his own reasons? What if those reasons were perfectly reasonable to
him, but made no sense to you?

> having it completely gone was a lot
> easier for me than trying to sift through the programming in order to
> find shows that were worth watching. There weren't very many. I am
> also highly selective with books I pick out to read...

The library is full of books I have no iterest in reading. It may take more
time finding good picture books than reading them. It would have made my
life a lot easier if I just didn't go to the library. I wouldn't have had to
spend time looking or reading.

> I just find
> that there is so much over-stimulation these days that I want my home
> to be a refuge from the media.

And what do your children want? If Steven Spielberg's mom had felt that way,
we wouldn't have Star Wars. That doesn't mean that every child who watches
TV will be the next Steven Spielberg but it means we can't know where our
children's interests will take them. TV is a powerful story telling medium.
It does what all literature has done from the beginning of story telling.

> I am not sure why people say that they can have unrestricted TV in
> their house *and* also find the time to do all the other things they
> want to do with their kids.

I say it because it's true. And I'm not judging how our time is spent based
on what *I* want to do with my daughter, but on what my daughter wants to do
(with or without me). If she has a huge number of options and chooses a
program on TV, then that program is what she needs.

> It directly interfered with or replaced story-telling, music,
> walks outdoors, and the like in our family, all things that I love and
> my daughter loves.

Everything will replace something else. We're always choosing.

My daughter and I read in bed every morning. She could go down and turn on
the TV when she wakes up but she prefers to read with me. Is our book
reading interfering with her TV watching? Or is she choosing the one she
prefers at the time?

Was your daughter complaining that she didn't have time for walks? Getting
rid of the TV didn't help her figure out how to solve that problem. It just
eliminated the problem. She could have recorded programs to watch when she
came back or when it was rainy or dark. You could have helped her get a
sense of time management by talking about how long things take and how many
hours there were to do them in. There are plenty of solutions if we start
thinking outside of the box.

> The other thing I hated about television was that
> when we did have it, it was too easy for me to use it as a babysitter.

And if your husband had a problem telling the kids to go read a book instead
of being with them, is the problem the books or your husband's attitude and
relationship with the kids? What is it that needs fixed?

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/26/2003 6:41:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> The movie works much better when it can be watched in sections, re-winding
> the songs, acting out the dances, talking about whether there's a guitar in
> that case she's swinging around with such gusto, and so forth.
>

About 2 years ago we had a local presentation of "Sound Of Music Sing Along".
I wanted to go so desperately!! It was the movie, but everyone was allowed
and encouraged to sing along at the top of their voice! Many people even
came in costume! I wanted to go so much, but didn't have the money at the
time. :-( What fun that would be!

Darla
Homeschooling Mom to Freya, Alec, and Kelson!
Wife to Jim.
Read my waterbirth story
http://ourworld.cs.com/darlathedoula/myhomepage/family.html


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Jana Eagle

I've thought lots about this TV issue over the last couple of days.
(remember, i am the one who doesn't have TV at all, i have a 4 yo
daughter, only child.)

i must admit, i am floored that so many of you on the list seem to
feel exactly the same way: that television is ok in any amount.

and i am willing to completely change my outlook on mass media and
television programs if i think it will benefit my family.

here are the things i have been wanting to say to the list:

I haven't watched television regularly for about 10 years. for me, it
is a decision i made long before being a mother-- it is not like i
prevent emily from watching, and then go and watch it myself when
she's asleep. there are other things our family does differently too.
i get the feeling that many of you are saying that this is not okay,
that it is impossible to unschool without using television. please
keep in mind that i respect whatever decisions you make about your
life, but i feel like you are criticizing me for wanting to do things
differently, and not even inviting the potential that i might be doing
something that works for me.


i have come to realise that for me it is an issue of thinking that our
culture has values that i don't want to promote to my child, and
television is the grand mascot for those values. i think i am here to
change my culture (or my experience of it) for the better-- to build a
community and a closeness with people that i never had when i was
growing up. i have observed firsthand that my daughter ignores
visitors when there is ANY video playing, and that deeply disturbs me.
tv is the only thing that stops her from socializing.

i agree with john taylor gatto that tv is in the same league as mass
schooling, that it is a brainwashing tool.

i see the internet as a socializing, community-building and knowledge
and resource gathering tool. (admittedly it can be abused too, but i
don't use it for "entertainment") i think television is very different
from the internet.

i think human beings as a race have a reckless disregard for the
natural balance of our ecosystem, and a brash consumerism and
commercial culture that promotes buying instead of feeling. we are
running away from something. (not saying you all are like this--
actually i love the way you talk about the rhythm of your days, the
freedom) ...everytime
i turn on the tv i see this promoted. i see disattachment,
punishment, abuse, and gratuitous violence. the images that
television passively recorded for me, because my parents let me watch
whatever i want, disturb me to this day: things like people getting
shot, car chases, and buildings exploding. i think film is a very
powerful art form, and i have loved and been deeply moved by some
films. i appreciate less than 5% of what i see on tv, though, and
that is not enough to make it worthwhile to have in my home. i also
don't feel it is necessary to introduce video and film as a medium to
a young child, when they are in a learning phase which is primarily
multi-sensorial in nature. i will have no problems having tv in the house
if my daughter insists on it when she is older.

in case you are wondering, no, i don't have a perfect life and the way
we live looks a lot like the way everyone else lives.

but i have tried to raise my daughter in a very different way than i was
raised-- i breastfed her and took her with me everywhere, whereas i
was sat in front of the tv from an early age, my real needs ignored.

so the way i see it, there seem to be simple things i can do to make a
difference and live closer to the life i want to live. things like
growing my own food or buying local food. things like not bothering
with tv are easy. no, i don't own a microwave, i don't eat any white sugar,
and i stop people from giving my daughter sugar. we go to bed at
sunset (usually) so we get enough sleep. i don't buy cosmetics, cleaning products, etc. i
don't care very much about trying to keep up with the latest toy, tool
or technology. i try to focus instead on spending as much time as we
can together-- the only kind of passive activity i need
on a regular basis is being in nature.

jana

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/26/2003 7:44:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, jana@...
writes:
> i have observed firsthand that my daughter ignores
> visitors when there is ANY video playing, and that deeply disturbs me.
> tv is the only thing that stops her from socializing.


She's telling you something.


> but i have tried to raise my daughter in a very different way than i was
> raised-- i breastfed her and took her with me everywhere, whereas i
> was sat in front of the tv from an early age, my real needs ignored.


And we're ALL raising our children in a different way than we were raised as
well. I doubt many of us were unschooled! <G> But it also means looking at
the TV differently as well. You can have all those things you mentioned and
STILL have TV access. And your daughter's real needs never need be ignored.
But if she WANTS the TV, and you're not allowing it, are HER REAL needs being
paid attention to?

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]