Limited Access/limited choice
[email protected]
Just some thoughts here, I am not a christian, have developed my own
spiritual beliefs based on what I have learned from life so far, and it is
always changing. Is is not true that children learn more from what we do than
what we say? As one subscriber to this list attached to her posts"What you
are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say" Emerson.
It just seems to me that if children witness their parents LIVING what they
believe, they will be more likely to live similar choices.. I am having
trouble articulating this. If the choices of TV, reading, media or events are
limited, how will they ever think to make the choices for themselves? I think
of Sandra's chocolate milk analogy, how will they choose white milk if they
aren't allowed to have chocolate?
If a person lives their spirituality and celebrates it and discusses it
openly, then the child will see that. If they choose not to embrace that it
obviously does not work for them at that time?
I think of the Kahlil Gibran writing(I can't remember what it is called, like
I said, I need help here!!!) "Your children are not of you, but through you."
He talks about them being as arrows shot from our bows. WE give them the best
send off we can, but they go their own directions. I am just questioning
here, and my thoughts are far from organized onthis. Can someone else help me
say it? It just seems like if a parent shelters the child from the world, how
can the child make the choices to live in a way that is caring, empathic,
healthy and suited to the needs of that child?
We assume that the child who is exposed to Animaniacs will become one?
I will stop now as the rambling begins.Wish I could write down the things in
my mind after all these posts.
Nancy, bursting in BC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
spiritual beliefs based on what I have learned from life so far, and it is
always changing. Is is not true that children learn more from what we do than
what we say? As one subscriber to this list attached to her posts"What you
are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say" Emerson.
It just seems to me that if children witness their parents LIVING what they
believe, they will be more likely to live similar choices.. I am having
trouble articulating this. If the choices of TV, reading, media or events are
limited, how will they ever think to make the choices for themselves? I think
of Sandra's chocolate milk analogy, how will they choose white milk if they
aren't allowed to have chocolate?
If a person lives their spirituality and celebrates it and discusses it
openly, then the child will see that. If they choose not to embrace that it
obviously does not work for them at that time?
I think of the Kahlil Gibran writing(I can't remember what it is called, like
I said, I need help here!!!) "Your children are not of you, but through you."
He talks about them being as arrows shot from our bows. WE give them the best
send off we can, but they go their own directions. I am just questioning
here, and my thoughts are far from organized onthis. Can someone else help me
say it? It just seems like if a parent shelters the child from the world, how
can the child make the choices to live in a way that is caring, empathic,
healthy and suited to the needs of that child?
We assume that the child who is exposed to Animaniacs will become one?
I will stop now as the rambling begins.Wish I could write down the things in
my mind after all these posts.
Nancy, bursting in BC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/23/03 9:51:55 AM, LOWRIEK@... writes:
<< I think of the Kahlil Gibran writing(I can't remember what it is called,
like
I said, I need help here!!!) "Your children are not of you, but through you."
He talks about them being as arrows shot from our bows. >>
It's from The Prophet:
And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of
Children."
And he said:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not
even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with
His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is
stable.
------------
I lifted that from a beautiful site:
http://home.manyrivers.aunz.com/kathleen/khalil_gibran_prophet_children.htm
<A
HREF="http://home.manyrivers.aunz.com/kathleen/khalil_gibran_prophet_children.
htm">Kathleen O'Grady - Khalil Gibran - Prophet - Ch…</A>
--------------
Interestingly, I was just this morning thinking of Khalil Gibran, and my
dad's response to my buying and reading "Jesus, the Son of Man" when I was a
teenager. My poor dad, who hardly read, was afraid it would be a bad thing
for me to own, somehow. He didn't know Khalil Gibran was Christian and that
the whole thing was beautifully reverent.
Sandra
<< I think of the Kahlil Gibran writing(I can't remember what it is called,
like
I said, I need help here!!!) "Your children are not of you, but through you."
He talks about them being as arrows shot from our bows. >>
It's from The Prophet:
And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of
Children."
And he said:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not
even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with
His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is
stable.
------------
I lifted that from a beautiful site:
http://home.manyrivers.aunz.com/kathleen/khalil_gibran_prophet_children.htm
<A
HREF="http://home.manyrivers.aunz.com/kathleen/khalil_gibran_prophet_children.
htm">Kathleen O'Grady - Khalil Gibran - Prophet - Ch…</A>
--------------
Interestingly, I was just this morning thinking of Khalil Gibran, and my
dad's response to my buying and reading "Jesus, the Son of Man" when I was a
teenager. My poor dad, who hardly read, was afraid it would be a bad thing
for me to own, somehow. He didn't know Khalil Gibran was Christian and that
the whole thing was beautifully reverent.
Sandra
[email protected]
Thank you Sandra, I could feel it, but couldn't remember it properly or find
it.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MARK and JULIE SOLICH
I am a christian. (don't do the church thing though) I've been thinking a
lot about restrictions and controls as they seem to be a part of the whole
*christian package*. Our kids are going to at some point in their lives have
to take control and make their own choices. I think I would rather they do
that sooner than later. It stands to reason that a child who learns to think
for himself and make his own decisions at 6 will have a better chance of
living the rest of his life being true to himself and therefore make the
choices that are right for him. That is what I want for my kids, that they
are not afraid to be themselves, to be the person that God created them to
be. I can't tell them who that person is. I wouldn't want to. They are great
kids and I think that I have the best *job* in the world, getting to watch
them and enjoy them grow.
Julie
lot about restrictions and controls as they seem to be a part of the whole
*christian package*. Our kids are going to at some point in their lives have
to take control and make their own choices. I think I would rather they do
that sooner than later. It stands to reason that a child who learns to think
for himself and make his own decisions at 6 will have a better chance of
living the rest of his life being true to himself and therefore make the
choices that are right for him. That is what I want for my kids, that they
are not afraid to be themselves, to be the person that God created them to
be. I can't tell them who that person is. I wouldn't want to. They are great
kids and I think that I have the best *job* in the world, getting to watch
them and enjoy them grow.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: <LOWRIEK@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 12:50 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Limited Access/limited choice
> Just some thoughts here, I am not a christian, have developed my own
> spiritual beliefs based on what I have learned from life so far, and it is
> always changing. Is is not true that children learn more from what we do
than
> what we say? As one subscriber to this list attached to her posts"What you
> are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say" Emerson.
> It just seems to me that if children witness their parents LIVING what
they
> believe, they will be more likely to live similar choices.. I am having
> trouble articulating this. If the choices of TV, reading, media or events
are
> limited, how will they ever think to make the choices for themselves? I
think
> of Sandra's chocolate milk analogy, how will they choose white milk if
they
> aren't allowed to have chocolate?
> If a person lives their spirituality and celebrates it and discusses it
> openly, then the child will see that. If they choose not to embrace that
it
> obviously does not work for them at that time?
> I think of the Kahlil Gibran writing(I can't remember what it is called,
like
> I said, I need help here!!!) "Your children are not of you, but through
you."
> He talks about them being as arrows shot from our bows. WE give them the
best
> send off we can, but they go their own directions. I am just questioning
> here, and my thoughts are far from organized onthis. Can someone else help
me
> say it? It just seems like if a parent shelters the child from the world,
how
> can the child make the choices to live in a way that is caring, empathic,
> healthy and suited to the needs of that child?
> We assume that the child who is exposed to Animaniacs will become one?
> I will stop now as the rambling begins.Wish I could write down the things
in
> my mind after all these posts.
> Nancy, bursting in BC
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 23/03/2003 17:25:27 Pacific Standard Time,
mjsolich@... writes:
Elizabeth, and it just occured to me (I am still really forming my philosophy
around unschooling) that really, no matter your religion or beliefs, if you
limit your child, they cannot grow to be who they are. I was not singling out
christians for sure.I simply wondered about that with regards to the posts of
the last few days.
I find I learn so much by reading all these dialogues.Thanks again.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mjsolich@... writes:
> It stands to reason that a child who learns to thinkThanks for responding , Julie. I have been reading all the posts from
> for himself and make his own decisions at 6 will have a better chance of
> living the rest of his life being true to himself and therefore make the
> choices that are right for him. That is what I want for my kids, that they
Elizabeth, and it just occured to me (I am still really forming my philosophy
around unschooling) that really, no matter your religion or beliefs, if you
limit your child, they cannot grow to be who they are. I was not singling out
christians for sure.I simply wondered about that with regards to the posts of
the last few days.
I find I learn so much by reading all these dialogues.Thanks again.
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Julie,
Wanted to say I feel the same way and it is worth repeating. I am a
Christian as well and do not attend a church.
Well said,
Pam G.
In a message dated 3/23/03 8:25:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mjsolich@... writes:
Wanted to say I feel the same way and it is worth repeating. I am a
Christian as well and do not attend a church.
Well said,
Pam G.
In a message dated 3/23/03 8:25:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mjsolich@... writes:
> I am a christian. (don't do the church thing though) I've been thinking a[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> lot about restrictions and controls as they seem to be a part of the whole
> *christian package*. Our kids are going to at some point in their lives
> have
> to take control and make their own choices. I think I would rather they do
> that sooner than later. It stands to reason that a child who learns to
> think
> for himself and make his own decisions at 6 will have a better chance of
> living the rest of his life being true to himself and therefore make the
> choices that are right for him. That is what I want for my kids, that they
> are not afraid to be themselves, to be the person that God created them to
> be. I can't tell them who that person is. I wouldn't want to. They are
> great
> kids and I think that I have the best *job* in the world, getting to watch
> them and enjoy them grow.
>
> Julie
>
Jana Eagle
My daughter (4 yo in April) has for the last year shown a great
interest in Jesus, even though I am not Christian and don't go to
church! The little that I had around the house from my own catholic
upbringing (funeral cards from my grandfather's funeral, and a picture
book Children's Bible), she would ask me about and she was riveted by
the crucifixion of Jesus story and play-acted being on a cross for months.
She walked up to me last month and said that she wanted to keep the
children's bible "forever" and that she "wanted to learn more about
Jesus"!
Wondering if you all have any advice on how to handle this? I
personally want nothing to do with the church, although i suppose
Jesus and the church often don't have a lot to do with eachother! I
am happy to support her in her desire to learn more about Jesus, any
good ideas of what she might like?
This is one of the reasons I am here, on this list, is because my
daughter obviously has her own ideas of what she needs to learn about.
thanks,
Jana
interest in Jesus, even though I am not Christian and don't go to
church! The little that I had around the house from my own catholic
upbringing (funeral cards from my grandfather's funeral, and a picture
book Children's Bible), she would ask me about and she was riveted by
the crucifixion of Jesus story and play-acted being on a cross for months.
She walked up to me last month and said that she wanted to keep the
children's bible "forever" and that she "wanted to learn more about
Jesus"!
Wondering if you all have any advice on how to handle this? I
personally want nothing to do with the church, although i suppose
Jesus and the church often don't have a lot to do with eachother! I
am happy to support her in her desire to learn more about Jesus, any
good ideas of what she might like?
This is one of the reasons I am here, on this list, is because my
daughter obviously has her own ideas of what she needs to learn about.
thanks,
Jana
sablehs
We tend to watch a lot of the history channel and have learned a lot
of the life and surroundings. Of course that may be a bit over her
head but who knows she may get little bits of it as my kids have.
Have you tried the Unitarian church, they {tend} to be much
different then regular churches and accept people of all faiths
{even pagans and atheists}
Besides more advanced books like "Don't know much about the Bible" I
don't know of any books off the top of my head.
No, I don't feel church and Jesus have to go hand in hand. I
personally feel more in touch with Jesus now, then when I was
Christian. I feel an equal fondness with many of the "teachers" of
the great religions.
Tracy
--- Jana Eagle <jana@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
of the life and surroundings. Of course that may be a bit over her
head but who knows she may get little bits of it as my kids have.
Have you tried the Unitarian church, they {tend} to be much
different then regular churches and accept people of all faiths
{even pagans and atheists}
Besides more advanced books like "Don't know much about the Bible" I
don't know of any books off the top of my head.
No, I don't feel church and Jesus have to go hand in hand. I
personally feel more in touch with Jesus now, then when I was
Christian. I feel an equal fondness with many of the "teachers" of
the great religions.
Tracy
--- Jana Eagle <jana@...> wrote:
>__________________________________________________
> My daughter (4 yo in April) has for the last year shown a great
> interest in Jesus, even though I am not Christian and don't go to
> church! The little that I had around the house from my own
> catholic
> upbringing (funeral cards from my grandfather's funeral, and a
> picture
> book Children's Bible), she would ask me about and she was riveted
> by
> the crucifixion of Jesus story and play-acted being on a cross for
> months.
>
> She walked up to me last month and said that she wanted to keep
> the
> children's bible "forever" and that she "wanted to learn more
> about
> Jesus"!
>
> Wondering if you all have any advice on how to handle this? I
> personally want nothing to do with the church, although i suppose
> Jesus and the church often don't have a lot to do with eachother!
> I
> am happy to support her in her desire to learn more about Jesus,
> any
> good ideas of what she might like?
> This is one of the reasons I am here, on this list, is because my
> daughter obviously has her own ideas of what she needs to learn
> about.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
Rebecca
Jana,
We spend a great deal of time doing comparative-religion
type "classes", and have used a variety of books/resources for doing
this. I am not Christian -- and my husbands is sort of an
agnostic/Spiritual-Seeker himself, and my son fully knows this. We
do not look to the Bible as a resource whatsoever in our
discussions. If I was going to do that, I'd go back to the earliest
recorded version (printed in English) to do so, since the commonly
used version has been rewritten/taken apart a great deal. When we
get into teaching/discussing Jesus and/or Christianity, we usually
take a historical/discerning view... and remind our son that not
everyone in the world is Christian, and that its OK not to be; and
doesn't make us any less the good people that we are. I personally
think a lot of times children get interested in such out of cultural
pressure, and the feeling of being "left-out" or the "different
one." I know that has been much of the case where our 6 1/2 year
old is concerned.
Here are a few books for more comparative religious discussions
and/or spirituality in general:
~ The Story of Religion
by Erika Weihs
~ The Usborne Book of World Religions (World Religions Series)
by Susan Meredith
~ Sacred Myths: Stories of World Religions
by Marilyn McFarlane
~ The Illustrated World's Religions: A Guide to Our Wisdom Traditions
by Huston Smith
~ Grandad's Prayers of the Earth
by Douglas Wood
~ All I See Is Part of Me
by Chara M. Curtis
~ Mother Earth
by Nancy Luenn
~ Mountains, Meadows and Moonbeams: A Child's Spiritual Reader
by Mary Summer Rain
Happy Reading,
Rebecca
We spend a great deal of time doing comparative-religion
type "classes", and have used a variety of books/resources for doing
this. I am not Christian -- and my husbands is sort of an
agnostic/Spiritual-Seeker himself, and my son fully knows this. We
do not look to the Bible as a resource whatsoever in our
discussions. If I was going to do that, I'd go back to the earliest
recorded version (printed in English) to do so, since the commonly
used version has been rewritten/taken apart a great deal. When we
get into teaching/discussing Jesus and/or Christianity, we usually
take a historical/discerning view... and remind our son that not
everyone in the world is Christian, and that its OK not to be; and
doesn't make us any less the good people that we are. I personally
think a lot of times children get interested in such out of cultural
pressure, and the feeling of being "left-out" or the "different
one." I know that has been much of the case where our 6 1/2 year
old is concerned.
Here are a few books for more comparative religious discussions
and/or spirituality in general:
~ The Story of Religion
by Erika Weihs
~ The Usborne Book of World Religions (World Religions Series)
by Susan Meredith
~ Sacred Myths: Stories of World Religions
by Marilyn McFarlane
~ The Illustrated World's Religions: A Guide to Our Wisdom Traditions
by Huston Smith
~ Grandad's Prayers of the Earth
by Douglas Wood
~ All I See Is Part of Me
by Chara M. Curtis
~ Mother Earth
by Nancy Luenn
~ Mountains, Meadows and Moonbeams: A Child's Spiritual Reader
by Mary Summer Rain
Happy Reading,
Rebecca
kayb85
Bible schools are usually a lot of fun. You could contact different
churches and see when their Bible schools are. I don't think the
Catholic churches usually do Bible schools, but protestant churches
do. Bible schools typically have games, crafts, snacks, Bible
stories, and music. They usually go all out decorating and sometimes
even have things like puppet shows too. I'm partial to Group's hands
on Bible school curriculum, so if you find a church that uses that
Group for Bible school it's almost guaranteed to be a fun time. You
could actually call around to different churches and say, "I'm
looking for a church to send my daughter for Bible school this summer
and I'm looking for someone who's using Group curriculum for their
Bible school program. What program do you use? Here's what they
will be doing if they use Group: http://www.groupvbs.com/ Of course
there are other programs out there that are great too. One church I
know does science experiments at their VBS every day. Another had a
western theme when we went two years ago. They taught the kids how
to square dance, played cool games and made neat crafts.
Another idea, if you want more to do on your own is to purchase
Group's hands on curriculum. You don't have to sit down and
have "class", you can just use it as a fun resource book. If you
have a Christian book store near you, you could probably find other
activity books with craft ideas to go with different Bible stories.
Here's the page for the group curriculum:
http://www.grouphobc.com/default.htm
If she's specifically interested in the crucifixion story, sometimes
churches put on neat Easter plays. You could call around and see
what types of Easter programs the different churches are putting on.
Note that I am NOT supporting being involved in "church". I don't
think it's necessary. You don't have to attend every week. But for
cool things to do involving Christianity, especially for kids,
sometimes church groups put on cool productions and special events.
Sheila
--- In [email protected], Jana Eagle <jana@f...>
wrote:
churches and see when their Bible schools are. I don't think the
Catholic churches usually do Bible schools, but protestant churches
do. Bible schools typically have games, crafts, snacks, Bible
stories, and music. They usually go all out decorating and sometimes
even have things like puppet shows too. I'm partial to Group's hands
on Bible school curriculum, so if you find a church that uses that
Group for Bible school it's almost guaranteed to be a fun time. You
could actually call around to different churches and say, "I'm
looking for a church to send my daughter for Bible school this summer
and I'm looking for someone who's using Group curriculum for their
Bible school program. What program do you use? Here's what they
will be doing if they use Group: http://www.groupvbs.com/ Of course
there are other programs out there that are great too. One church I
know does science experiments at their VBS every day. Another had a
western theme when we went two years ago. They taught the kids how
to square dance, played cool games and made neat crafts.
Another idea, if you want more to do on your own is to purchase
Group's hands on curriculum. You don't have to sit down and
have "class", you can just use it as a fun resource book. If you
have a Christian book store near you, you could probably find other
activity books with craft ideas to go with different Bible stories.
Here's the page for the group curriculum:
http://www.grouphobc.com/default.htm
If she's specifically interested in the crucifixion story, sometimes
churches put on neat Easter plays. You could call around and see
what types of Easter programs the different churches are putting on.
Note that I am NOT supporting being involved in "church". I don't
think it's necessary. You don't have to attend every week. But for
cool things to do involving Christianity, especially for kids,
sometimes church groups put on cool productions and special events.
Sheila
--- In [email protected], Jana Eagle <jana@f...>
wrote:
>picture
> My daughter (4 yo in April) has for the last year shown a great
> interest in Jesus, even though I am not Christian and don't go to
> church! The little that I had around the house from my own catholic
> upbringing (funeral cards from my grandfather's funeral, and a
> book Children's Bible), she would ask me about and she was rivetedby
> the crucifixion of Jesus story and play-acted being on a cross formonths.
>about.
> She walked up to me last month and said that she wanted to keep the
> children's bible "forever" and that she "wanted to learn more about
> Jesus"!
>
> Wondering if you all have any advice on how to handle this? I
> personally want nothing to do with the church, although i suppose
> Jesus and the church often don't have a lot to do with eachother! I
> am happy to support her in her desire to learn more about Jesus, any
> good ideas of what she might like?
> This is one of the reasons I am here, on this list, is because my
> daughter obviously has her own ideas of what she needs to learn
>
> thanks,
> Jana
Jana Eagle
sablehs <sablehs@...> writes:
weren't many kids at the nearby uu church, so it wasn't very much fun
for us to go to the services. but i like the music and the
philopsophy of the uus.
jana
> Have you tried the Unitarian church, they {tend} to be muchwe are more unitarian than anything else... unfortunately there
> different then regular churches and accept people of all faiths
> {even pagans and atheists}
weren't many kids at the nearby uu church, so it wasn't very much fun
for us to go to the services. but i like the music and the
philopsophy of the uus.
jana