angelmom1165 <[email protected]>

Hi Everyone!

I have been homeschooling for 6 years, this is the 6th. I have a dd
in the 11th grade, a ds in the 5th grade, a ds who will be 4 in April
and a dd who is 17 months old. I stumbled across this list in search
of answers to the problem of getting ds (10) to do "school". He is a
child with many "problems". He has problems with anger and
frustrations and dealing with disappointments. I think, looking
back, it might be because of trying to get him to do "school" the way
everyone sees school and does homeschool, for the most part. he
hates worksheets and doesn't do well under the pressure of a test.
He has a hard time focusing, too. Except on video games! He is very
stuborn and so am I, so we tend to clash, wonder why! DH is telling
me I need to put him in public school so he can get an education and
get him out of the house for awhile. I am waring inside myself about
it. Everything in me says NO. Except for the fact that I might have
some time without having to deal with his behavior. But, here is a
thought....

What if unschooling is the answer? What if the pressure was off and
he just did the things he liked to do and wanted to do. How do I
unschool myself? It eats me up it they aren't doing something! How
do you unschool a teenager, too? I want her to have a good education
and she was in PS for the first four and 1/4 years of her school
years. So that school stuff is in her head, too. Will his behavior
get better if he is enjoying life instead of being hounded about
school all day long? Do I give him a list of responsiblities around
the house (he doesn't have a formal list right now, I just assign
stuff)and let him do "real life" stuff to get him to learn things
without him thinking it is school?

I know I am asking so many questions and seem so confused, too
confused to have done this for so many years, but I am none the less,
asking for your help. I love my children so much and I feel that if
I put my ds in PS, I will be failing him and setting him up for so
many things I don't want for him. He soaks up other peoples likes
and dislikes, to a certain extent. He has a friend that he met a
year ago and he has aquired his laugh, much to my dismay. It is not
an attractive laugh. He has aquired some other bad qualities from
him and I am afraid he will get much more from other kids at school.
I just don't know what to tell my dh about all this. He thinks I
just won't listen to him when he suggests things. NO, just not
that. I know I am rambling. Please forgive me. I am at my wits end
over this. Thanks for listening and for your help in advance.

Terri, TX mom to four wonderful blessings

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/15/03 10:53:26 PM, angelmom1165@... writes:

<< What if unschooling is the answer? What if the pressure was off and
he just did the things he liked to do and wanted to do. How do I
unschool myself? >>

Well, obviously there are people who think it IS the answer! <g>

School at home is harsh, because the kids can't go home at the end of the day
and get away from it.

If the pressure is off, at first he will revel in what might seem like doing
nothing, just like June and July after a big schoolyear. That's natural.

Here's something about deschooling yourself:

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

<< Will his behavior
get better if he is enjoying life instead of being hounded about
school all day long? >>

I think so.

<<Do I give him a list of responsiblities around
the house >>

I wouldn't.

<<. . .and let him do "real life" stuff to get him to learn things
without him thinking it is school? >>

If you're thinking of "real life stuff" as housework, I wouldn't. I would
take him places without pressure to "learn" or report (museums, movie, new
and different stores or restaurants), just hang out with him. Do things
together. Consider reading these two articles:

http://sandradodd.com/truck
http://sandradodd.com/museum

I have teenaged boys.

Sandra

angelmom1165

Sandra,

What I meant by real life learning was teaching him how to cook and make up
menus and such, shopping for that menu, having an assigned day that he does
the meal planning and cooking? Things like that. I have been reading many
posts on the unschool.com message boards and getting lots of insites. I
have much to think and pray about. I know what my heart is telling me, I
just have to figure out a way to get dh to understand it. Thanks for the
links!

Terri, TX mom to four wonderful blessings


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "angelmom1165"
<angelmom1165@a...> wrote:
> Sandra,
>
> What I meant by real life learning was teaching him how to cook and
make up
> menus and such, shopping for that menu, having an assigned day that
he does
> the meal planning and cooking? Things like that

Does he want to learn how to plan a menu and cook? What would he do
with himself all day if he could do anything he wanted to do?

Sheila

Fetteroll

on 2/16/03 12:52 AM, angelmom1165 <angelmom1165@...> at
angelmom1165@... wrote:

> He has problems with anger and
> frustrations and dealing with disappointments.

Pam Sorooshian often recommends The Explosive Child. Here's what she wrote
about it:

>> Another book I liked even more than [Raising Your Spirited Child] was:
>> "The Explosive Child" (From their website) -- The Explosive Child is the
>> internationally acclaimed book by Dr. Ross Greene that provides a more
>> contemporary conceptualization of inflexible, easily frustrated, explosive
>> children, and describes a new, practical, comprehensive approach for helping
>> these children at home and school. This approach ­ called the Collaborative
>> Problem Solving Approach -- is aimed at decreasing adversarial parent-child
>> interactions, reducing family hostility, and improving children's capacities
>> for flexibility, frustration tolerance, communication, and self-regulation.

> he hates worksheets and doesn't do well under the pressure of a test. <snip>
> He has a hard time focusing, too.

If your husband daily made you do things you hate, how well would you deal
with it? How well would you focus? Being upset because you're being forced
to do something doesn't require "many 'problems'". It should be normal! But
our society trains us and our kids to believe that kids have a problem if
they protest doing things that they dislike and see as useless. :-/

> What if unschooling is the answer? What if the pressure was off and he just
> did the things he liked to do and wanted to do. . How do I unschool myself?
> It eats me up it they aren't doing something!

What if your husband had an agenda for you, and a goal that he wanted you to
reach? What if regardless of how he explained it and how much he believed in
it, it made no sense to you? What if he watched over you and judged what you
were doing against his standards of what was worthwhile for you to do? What
if you felt his eyes on you as you turned on the TV for your favorite show,
and you knew he prefered you to be reading something educational or doing
housework? What if he thought the meals his mother cooked were the best for
a family and your ideas were worth less?

> Will his behavior
> get better if he is enjoying life instead of being hounded about
> school all day long?

Would your behavior improve if you were enjoying life and not being hounded
by your husband for not sticking to the agenda he felt it was important for
you to follow?

> Do I give him a list of responsiblities around
> the house (he doesn't have a formal list right now, I just assign
> stuff)

They aren't really responsibilities if someone imposes them on us.
Responsibilities are things we feel are important to us and accept for
ourselves and own. *His* responsibilities are living a joyful life.

> and let him do "real life" stuff to get him to learn things
> without him thinking it is school?

I think one of the big hurdles of unschooling is letting go of the idea that
we need to get them to some place that we think they need to be. We think we
need to get them to understand math, for instance, so we try to think of
"natural" ways to get them from where they are to where we want them to be.

So part of unschooling is letting go of that and trusting that people will
learn what they need when they need it. Learning is not artificial. It comes
from needing something. If someone doesn't need to know something, then why
should they learn it?

You probably don't need to know about Mongolian history. But if you needed
to know, wouldn't you learn it?

> What I meant by real life learning was teaching him how to cook and make up
> menus and such, shopping for that menu, having an assigned day that he does
> the meal planning and cooking? Things like that.

Those can all be part of unschooling if *he* thinks they're fun.

But rather than thinking in terms of finding things he could learn from,
learn yourself to see the things he learns in what *he* does. And do things
because they're enjoyable not because the kids could learning something.

> I know what my heart is telling me, I
> just have to figure out a way to get dh to understand it.

Maybe you could print out all your emails and the replies for him to read.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/2003 2:51:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
angelmom1165@... writes:

> What I meant by real life learning was teaching him how to cook and make up
> menus and such, shopping for that menu, having an assigned day that he does
> the meal planning and cooking?


If he WANTS to learn to cook and he really might enjoy having a day to
cook---sure. If it's just a way to get him to "do" math, no.

My son likes Japanese sushi maki, so we did all the shopping ( and playing)
in the oriental market, and he made supper one night. Now he knows how, and
if we're ever in the mood for maki, he volunteers to make it.

He loves Emeril Legasse (I like his food, but not his show)---and everything
cajun. We have 4-5 of his cookbooks. Cameron will occasionally concoct a
cajun supper for us---either from thumbing through the books or watching the
show late at night.

At one time he ASKED that we each have a night to cook---an "assigned" night.
That was pretty cool! Then one day HIS night rolled around and he asked, "Can
I make anything I want?" "Sure." He "made" a reservation! <g> It lasted as
long as he was interested. He'll still cook when he wants to because he likes
to. But if I had made him stick to his "assigned" cooking night, he MIGHT
have learned to hate to cook.

I'm the same way: I LOVE to cook but if I don't feel like it, I can always
say, "Call Domino's" ---or "Get your shoes on, we're going out to eat."

~Kelly
Never trust a skinny cook!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

***He has problems with anger and
frustrations and dealing with disappointments.***

Man, so do I.<g>
Ten is pretty young to have anger and frustration and disappointment. I
avoid it if I can but I have the luxury of being old enough to tell
people who are trying to make me angry or frustrated or disappointed to
take a hike. Mostly kids aren't given the freedom to express themselves
when they feel things are unfair or mean or too boring or dreadful.
Mostly parents are trying to raise nice children who won't talk back and
what happens is they feel they have no voice and then those emotions that
they can't put into words get released some other way. Your son at ten
is a great communicator. You as a grown up now need to listen.

*** DH is telling
me I need to put him in public school so he can get an education and
get him out of the house for awhile. ***

Does your son want to go to school?

***What if unschooling is the answer? What if the pressure was off and
he just did the things he liked to do and wanted to do. How do I
unschool myself? It eats me up it they aren't doing something! How
do you unschool a teenager, too? I want her to have a good education
and she was in PS for the first four and 1/4 years of her school
years. So that school stuff is in her head, too. Will his behavior
get better if he is enjoying life instead of being hounded about
school all day long? ***

Have you been able to read much about unschooling? Some people come to
unschooling because their school at home life is so stressful, but they
don't really understand the philosophy and have a hard time with what
unschooling really is. The more you can educate yourself about it, and
this list can help, the more ways you will see that it can be wonderful
for your kids. My own son is ten and I have to run to keep up with his
interests. He's always doing something and if you can get away from the
idea that text books and worksheets are the "somethings" they need to be
doing you'll be able to see the things they enjoy and you'll be able to
help them find ways to do those things.

***Do I give him a list of responsiblities around
the house (he doesn't have a formal list right now, I just assign
stuff)and let him do "real life" stuff to get him to learn things
without him thinking it is school? ***

I wouldn't. Talk with him and tell him you think maybe he's just
amazing. Tell him you want him to be happy. Tell him you want him to
do the things he loves to do and not worry about school work. Tell him
he's so darn smart he doesn't need that stuff. Help him find wonderful
things to do and interesting people to talk to. Let his job be being a
kid.

***He soaks up other peoples likes
and dislikes, to a certain extent. He has a friend that he met a
year ago and he has aquired his laugh, much to my dismay. It is not
an attractive laugh. He has aquired some other bad qualities from
him and I am afraid he will get much more from other kids at school.***

He might see his friend as an interesting person and himself as not so
much. You can help him do things he loves to do and in his own eyes
become an interesting person. He won't be as inclined to adopt the
interesting qualities of others if he's satisfied with the kind of person
he is. His life needs to be bigger and he needs more opportunity to
find out how cool he really is.

I just told someone who is trying to figure out unschooling to live each
day with her kids like she was on a three day vacation in Rome. If you
had three days in Rome what would you do? Would you sit in your hotel
and make your kids do worksheets about the Vatican or would you get out
there and see stuff and talk to people and sample the food and touch
everything you could and jump fully into Rome?

Ten year olds want to do stuff. Not yucky, boring school stuff. Cool
stuff. Think like a ten year old and if you need ideas, I'll ask my son
because he's always doing stuff. <g>

Deb L

angelmom1165

Play video games! Do I let him? That just doesn't sound right to me. I am
going in search of some books, The Teenage Liberation Handbook, The
Unschooling Handbook, Learning all the time, How children learn, and How
Children Fail.

Terri
-----Original Message-----
From: kayb85 <sheran@...> [mailto:sheran@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 2:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: New to group and many questions wanting
many answers


--- In [email protected], "angelmom1165"
<angelmom1165@a...> wrote:
> Sandra,
>
> What I meant by real life learning was teaching him how to cook and
make up
> menus and such, shopping for that menu, having an assigned day that
he does
> the meal planning and cooking? Things like that

Does he want to learn how to plan a menu and cook? What would he do
with himself all day if he could do anything he wanted to do?

Sheila


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 5:11:30 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< If he WANTS to learn to cook and he really might enjoy having a day to
cook---sure. If it's just a way to get him to "do" math, no. >>

Yesterday Holly and I were playing Five Crowns with a friend of ours who's a
statistician professionally, and very mathish.

I'm not a good scorekeeper, and I don't like to keep score. I asked who
wanted to and Holly volunteered. I'm 49 and embarrassed to make a
scorekeeping mistake in front of ANYBODY. Holly's 11 and has no fear.

When ONCE Annealiese looked over and pointed out an error of 20 points to
Holly, Holly said, "Oh, you're right."

Holly told us that when she plays Harry Potter with the homeschooling group,
some of the parents don't like her stating how much damage is done by a
certain card. She said "If I say 'that's seven against me,' the moms look at
me like I should have let them figure it out. They want them to play Harry
Potter so they will have to do the math and reading."

Holly couldn't read well enough to play those kinds of games a year or so
ago. Now she can. But she doesn't see it as something people should do for
the purpose of learning, but for the purpose of playing!! She happily helps
other players because people have always happily helped her.

Cooking is exactly like playing Harry Potter. <g.


Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 2:37:30 PM, angelmom1165@... writes:

<< Play video games! Do I let him? That just doesn't sound right to me. I am
going in search of some books, The Teenage Liberation Handbook, The
Unschooling Handbook, Learning all the time, How children learn, and How
Children Fail. >>

Instead of How Children Learn and How Children Fail, look for some of John
Holt's later books, after he gave up on school reform and started writing
about homeschooling.

If you can find it, get "Teach Your Own."

But in the meantime please do look at this site:

http://sandradodd.com/games/page
and
http://sandradodd.com/games/nintendogold especially.

Somebody let me know by IM or side mail if these links below work, please:

<A HREF="http://sandradodd.com/games/page">Benefits of Video Games</A>

<A HREF="http://sandradodd.com/games/nintendogold">Nintendo by Mary Gold</A>


Sandra

Angela

Just want to second Sandra's recommendation to read John Holt's "Teach Your
Own." That was *the* book that had the greatest impact on me in my
unschooling journey.



Angela in Maine-unschooling@...
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/

"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>Play video games! Do I let him? That just doesn't sound right to me.>>

It's not necessarily the particular activity that matters at any given
moment. It's the path of learning and exploration that the child is on.
Video games can indeed lead to other things, besides being way more mentally
stimulating than we parents give them credit for. Here's link to an article
I wroter on the topic:http://sandradodd.com/games/nintendogold

Life is good.
~Mary


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