zenmomma *

>>Sometimes you can't even hold them because they are flailing, kicking and
>>resisting so much.>>

I tried something different this time that allowed me to break through. I
walked close, but not too close, and *asked her* if it was okay for me to
touch her now. I told her I wanted us to reconnect and feel better and that
maybe touching would help. She still wasn't communicative, but didn't scream
louder so I took it as a yes. I touched only her hands. She calmed just a
little. I aked if I could touch her shoulders, she said yes but didn't like
it. I stopped. I asked if I could rub her back. She liked this and started
really calming. We ended up playing chess and I was able to get her to eat
something. Things are better now.

I know that touching has always helped her if I can get it in the right way.
Now I also know that it's important to request permission to touch her when
she's that upset. Seems so simple, yet it took me this long.

>>You know, my boys have been "like this" since they were born. .NOT just
>>since we started unschooling.>>

Yes Casey has always been Casey too. Some behaviors I know I've helped her
with, others I know I've contributed to. I'm alway learning and changing
within myself to keep my own reactions in their proper place.

>>I sometimes find it confusing figuring out how unschooling "works" or fits
>>into our lives with kids who have special needs.>>

In what ways do you feel it doesn't work or fit into your lives? For us,
it's just never about the unschooling. I know it frustrates some people to
hear me say that. But it's true. Without unschooling I would not have the
freedom that I do to honor my children for Who They Are. To give them the
room they need to learn to live within their own bodies no matter what age
the learning takes place. To let them Be.

>>It DOES work for them, but sometimes I have to figure out how to implement
>>it.>>

In what ways?

>>Because I have questions and concerns about how to unschool my special
>>needs kids, because what works for others may not always work for us, does
>>not mean I am not unschooling or that I don't condone the approach.>>

What specifically do you think is working for others that will not work for
you?

Life is good.
~Mary




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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/15/03 1:03:21 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Because I have questions
and concerns about how to unschool my special needs kids, because what works
for others may not always work for us, does not mean I am not unschooling or
that I don't condone the approach. Something has been misread in this
interpretation. >>

Um no....I don't think there is any misreading anything.
You just reposted what you said about being eclectic/relaxed whatever, that
you didn't fit any label.


Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/15/03 4:30:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:

> What specifically do you think is working for others that will not work for
>
> you?
>

Mary, I know you've just recently "rejoined" in the conversations here. I
hate to bore others with repeating my concerns, but to be breif..

We have trouble with bedtimes. My husband needs to be in bed by 10:00 as he
has to get up at 5:00am ( sometimes earlier ) to drive an hour and half to
work. Since the kids have been homeschooling, and we lifted "bedtime" they
stay up LOUDLY til after midnight. They wont respect Dh need to sleep. (
just Ethan and JP, the ???? can't use a label here.. "busy boys") I had some
very good suggestions for this.. but so far, its still a struggle.

And the breaking of controllers and other things.. "Pre" unschooling, those
would have to be "earned" back somehow.

"unlimited gaming" All that stuff I posted earlier about thier
frustrations, ect.. and the fact that they can't work out a sharing system
between themselves. My previous solution was to allow each one a block of
time and to take turns.. Well, thats not unschooling.

Hmm, let me see, I have also had quite a bit of flack from family about my
choice to unschool. Especially from my 16 yo son. I have written about
this in detail in the past..

And, my daughter , the "model student" is feeling very disconcerted and
uneasy over the lack of structure and lesson plans. She thrives on
assignments, progress, recognigtion, acheivments. Its been tough for her to
figure out how to "be herself" and feel worthy outside of school... I've
written about this before too, and talked about the things I am trying to
help her with. It IS getting better, but she still misses school and I
think she would go back in minute if I suggested it.

Mary, I do appreciate your interest in my family. I wish you had been
around to contribute to earlier disscussions over things I have posted ..

Thanks
Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 14:29 2/15/03 -0700, Mary wrote:
> >>Sometimes you can't even hold them because they are flailing, kicking and
> >>resisting so much.>>
>
>I tried something different this time that allowed me to break through. I
>walked close, but not too close, and *asked her* if it was okay for me to
>touch her now.

This seems to make all the difference in the world to Liam when he's having
a horrendous time of it. If I don't ask first, I'm either invading his
privacy or I feel helplessly inadequate and want to help. So lately I've
asked him *if* I could help him/hold him/sit close/listen, whatever. It's
been very helpful in beginning to change the energy.

Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

>>> I sometimes find it confusing figuring out how unschooling "works"
>>> or fits
>>> into our lives with kids who have special needs.>>

You know - this sentence could just have been stopped BEFORE the "with
kids who have special needs."

I sometimes find it confusing figuring out how unschooling "works" or
fits into our lives.

THAT would be a sentence that makes sense. Lots of people find it
confusing - when trying to apply it to their own lives.

Here is another sentence that makes sense:

I sometimes find it confusing figuring out how unschooling "works" or
fits into our lives with our particular kids and the specific kinds of
issues we deal with around here.

It really is the "special needs" label that makes people react - it
sounds to people like you are saying that there is this group of kids
wearing the "special needs" label and that unschooling, which works for
everybody else, is problematic for them.

What people are then saying back is that unschooling is the IDEAL for
all kids, since it specifically means supporting the kids in whatever
idiosyncratic way works for that specific kid. But it doesn't help
someone unschool if they think of their kids as "special needs" because
that is a label that is meaningless in an unschooling context.
Unschoolers think of each of their kids as so completely individual
that it doesn't make any sense to label them in this context. Labeling
them, or taking the labels too seriously, in fact, could make it more
difficult to unschool and might lead to unnecessary confusion.


Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org

kayb85 <[email protected]>

> We have trouble with bedtimes. My husband needs to be in bed by
10:00 as he
> has to get up at 5:00am ( sometimes earlier ) to drive an hour and
half to
> work. Since the kids have been homeschooling, and we
lifted "bedtime" they
> stay up LOUDLY til after midnight.

I know you were just using this as an example, but I had a thought.
Do you stay up with them and actively participate in their activities
with them late at night? My husband has the exact same sleeping
schedule. In bed between 9 and 10, and up at 5 for work. I've
noticed that when the kids are playing by themselves and I'm doing my
own thing, they're much more likely to be loud and wake up dh. When
I'm actively playing with them, they are much more likely to be quiet
enough. My presence tends to keep things more quiet and them less
likely to fight loudly with each other.

Sheila

Pam Sorooshian

On Saturday, February 15, 2003, at 05:10 PM, grlynbl@... wrote:

>
>> What specifically do you think is working for others that will not
>> work for
>>
>> you?
>>
>
> Mary, I know you've just recently "rejoined" in the conversations
> here. I
> hate to bore others with repeating my concerns, but to be breif..
>
> We have trouble with bedtimes. My husband needs to be in bed by
> 10:00 as he
> has to get up at 5:00am ( sometimes earlier ) to drive an hour and
> half to
> work. Since the kids have been homeschooling, and we lifted "bedtime"
> they
> stay up LOUDLY til after midnight. They wont respect Dh need to
> sleep. (
> just Ethan and JP, the ???? can't use a label here.. "busy boys") I
> had some
> very good suggestions for this.. but so far, its still a struggle.
>

I don't really consider this an unschooling issue. My kids have no
bedtimes, but I definitely would find a way to make sure they are quiet
enough for my dh to sleep. In fact, because our house is not very
soundproof - we all have to work hard to be quiet. For years I sat up
with my younger kids, to keep them quiet so my dh could get to sleep. I
turned the tv down, I turned their music down, I shushed them when
their voices got loud, I distracted them from noisy games, and so on.
They get too tired and sometimes can't settle down and go to sleep -
they actually got hyperactive when they were overtired. I'd bribe and
cajole them to snuggle with me and let me read to them long enough to
settle them down. I'd give them warm milk. I'd put on quiet types of
movies. I'd try to give them separate things to do - so that they
wouldn't rile each other up. I gave them piles of pillows and blankets
so that they could settle down right where they were. I put up the pup
tent in the living room so they could sleep in it. I put them in warm
baths. I gave them warm milk. We did slow breathing techniques to
relax. We listened to environmental sound tapes and relaxation tapes.
We listened to books and stories on tape - Jim Weiss especially. I gave
them a massage. I laid down in their room with one on each side of me
and told them stories about themselves or imaginary stories but using
their names as the heroines.

> And the breaking of controllers and other things.. "Pre"
> unschooling, those
> would have to be "earned" back somehow.
>
At my house they'd probably be put up out of reach somewhere until I
was convinced it wouldn't happen again. Not as a punishment, per se,
but because we just wouldn't get something fixed that is going to just
be broken again. Can't waste money like that. I'd work on those anger
issues in whatever ways I could, of course, as I'm sure you are. The
controllers and other things would not be the focus - it would be the
self-control issues. I like the book by Marilyn (Madilyn?) Shure -- "I
Can Problem Solve." There is one for younger kids and one for older
kids. I also like the "How to Talk so Kids will Listen and ...." book.
Both gave me a lot of ideas. I also like, The Explosive Child. Again,
though, i don't really see this as unschooling issue.

I know that lots of people here do see all child-raising issues as
unschooling issues and I get their point - but that tends to get
confused with total noncoercive parenting and I just don't believe that
THAT is necessary for unschooling.

"unlimited gaming" All that stuff I posted earlier about thier
> frustrations, ect.. and the fact that they can't work out a sharing
> system
> between themselves. My previous solution was to allow each one a
> block of
> time and to take turns.. Well, thats not unschooling.
>
That's my solution too, to having one computer. I know some people just
have the policy in their family that the next person just should wait
until the first person is done...but that didn't seem fair to my
family, so we had a policy, for a long time that when the next person
wanted the computer, the previous person would have 1/2 hour more and
then had to turn it over. And so on. We had sign-up sheets, too, for a
while. We've tried different things - now I have my own computer, my
husband has his own, my 18 yo has her own and our 12 and 15 yo's seem
to be able to share almost all the time.

Again - I don't get why that is not unschooling - are you "schooling?"
No.

> Hmm, let me see, I have also had quite a bit of flack from family
> about my
> choice to unschool. Especially from my 16 yo son. I have written
> about
> this in detail in the past..
>
Lots of people get a lot of flak. Sometimes people eventually come
around and support it - but often not until the kids get older.

> And, my daughter , the "model student" is feeling very disconcerted
> and
> uneasy over the lack of structure and lesson plans. She thrives on
> assignments, progress, recognigtion, acheivments. Its been tough for
> her to
> figure out how to "be herself" and feel worthy outside of school...
> I've
> written about this before too, and talked about the things I am trying
> to
> help her with. It IS getting better, but she still misses school and
> I
> think she would go back in minute if I suggested it.
>
So - you are forcing her to unschool? Something oxymoronic there --
maybe she'd like to sign up for online courses or take workshops of
some kind or do a public school isp or a correspondence course or
something else that is more what she's comfortable with. It might be
easier for her to move from a place of comfort to a more unschooling
life on her own. Or maybe she'd just like to go to school with the
understanding that you'll let her handle it and let her leave if she
decides to do that.

> Mary, I do appreciate your interest in my family. I wish you had been
> around to contribute to earlier disscussions over things I have posted
> .


Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/15/03 11:23:10 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< Labeling them, or taking the labels too seriously, in fact, could make it
more
difficult to unschool and might lead to unnecessary confusion. >>

And that is still thinking about the mother's understanding and the mother's
convenience.

Labels and test scores last a lifetime. The more kids who can be told
"You're great the way you are," and "Just do what's in front of you, you'll
learn ever day!" the more healthy and happy and contented adults there will
be ten and twenty years down the line.

"This is the way you are and I love you" has got to be better to hear than
"OH! You're dyslexic; that's why we homeschool; that's why you can't read
yet; that's why you have a hard time with math."

"Don't worry, it will come in its own time" has got to be better than, "Well
if you were an average, normal kid you'd be doing it by now, but you're not.
There's something wrong with you..." even if it's followed by "But that's
okay."

And for kids who have already been labelled defective by schools for not
sitting still, or by parents because the curriculum wasn't coming along at
the pace the teacher's guide said it should, maybe they can be told, "I used
to think this was a problem, but there are lots of kids like you, and with
unschooling it won't matter what order you learn things in or how you hold
your pencil. Let's watch a movie and eat some popcorn."

Sandra

[email protected]

There are many new members on the list and I really hate for them to get the
impression that what's below is representative of the advice given or the
results obtained.

In a message dated 2/16/03 12:23:34 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<< "unlimited gaming" All that stuff I posted earlier about thier
frustrations, ect.. and the fact that they can't work out a sharing system
between themselves. My previous solution was to allow each one a block of
time and to take turns.. Well, thats not unschooling. >>

It has been stated more than once that the lifting of limits and the ideas
about bedtimes and chores and food are not required for unschooling but that
lots of unschoolers eventually get there.

To life all rules suddenly without an understanding of WHY, and without
adjustments in the family relationships isn't going to work. This has been
discussed quite a bit of late.

If something's not working, don't do it.
Or try to understand WHY it's not working.


<<It IS getting better, but she still misses school and I
think she would go back in minute if I suggested it.>>

If she really wants to go to school and isn't happy with unschooling, what's
the advantage of keeping her home?

Unless both parents and the kids are into unschooling, it's not likely to
work anyway.

<< Since the kids have been homeschooling, and we lifted "bedtime" they
stay up LOUDLY til after midnight. They wont respect Dh need to sleep. >>

Without gradual adjustments and a change in awareness, just saying "stay up
as late as you want" has nothing to do with unschooling. MANY people have
said if the dad has to sleep, he has to sleep! If gradually children get to
stay up later responsibly that could lead as far as it can and chaos ensues,
blaming the advice on this list is not productive.

Had there been one more mom to advice, or thirty more, or five hundred fewer,
it wouldn't change the situation.

FIRST moms should understand. THEN natural learning starts and gradually
people get into the flow and rhythm of unschooling. It can't really happen
by one parent declaring one day that it's unschooling time, all rules are
off, and that's it.

All KINDS of suggestions and explanations and principles have been discussed
here. People could read all the archives or just take my word for it, but
people HAVE tried to help Teresa with her specific situations, and it seems
to me that the response is "Well THAT didn't work." Repeatedly.

Teresa, I'm sorry you feel that I've singled you out somehow. I'm dealing in
ideas, not people. Since you've stated you're very new to unschooling and
you seem not to really getting it, and you remind us that your kids and your
relatives and your husband aren't into it, maybe it's just not going to work
for you this season and you need to try something else for a while. I'm not
trying to be mean, I'm trying to be practical.

And I've said this and you got angry, but it's really important so I'm going
to risk saying it again. You've written LOTS on this list. If you had
spent all that energy on being with your children instead of being here and
being angry and being defensive, you would be further along on the path than
you are now. That's not saying "don't post." It's saying "if you want
unschooling to work, look at your kids, not at us."

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 2/15/03 8:10 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> They wont respect Dh need to sleep.

One possibility is that they don't feel their needs are treated with
respect. It *is* easy to not respect kids needs when we view them from adult
perspectives. If we're in the middle of something and they ask us to watch a
cartoon with them, it's difficult to see that as being as important to them
as our important stuff is to us. So when we approach them with "This is what
I need" they may have learned to act as if they were saying -- as we may do
to them more often than we realize -- "Yes, but I need this so that
overrides your need."

Another is that they can't understand. My daughter who is 11 still has
conflicts between her need to pick up the cats and their need to be doing
whatever they want to be doing at the time. It's sort of like she
subconsciously feels that if she picks them up they'll understand her need
and comply.

We wouldn't expect a 2 or 3 yo to understand that she needs to set her needs
aside so someone else can meet his needs. Since your boys are responding as
though they don't understand, then treat them as though they can't
understand and give them the help and patience you'd give to a 2 or 3 year
old.

> "unlimited gaming" All that stuff I posted earlier about thier
> frustrations, ect.. and the fact that they can't work out a sharing system
> between themselves. My previous solution was to allow each one a block of
> time and to take turns.. Well, thats not unschooling.

Actually working out sibling clashes isn't part of unschooling. But helping
kids deal with life while being respectful and trusting is an outgrowth of
unschooling that many unschoolers are drawn to.

Sandra has posted a lot about this. I think it's telling that you say that
*they* can't work out a sharing system. It isn't up to them to work it out.
They don't have the skills to draw on in order to try things out. They need
your help. They don't need you to solve it for them. They need you to help
them work through the problem and through various solutions.

There are probably a lot of things contributing to the problem. Have you
read Siblings Without Rivalry? That might help you deal with the part that's
contributed by sibling rivalry.

> Hmm, let me see, I have also had quite a bit of flack from family about my
> choice to unschool. Especially from my 16 yo son. I have written about
> this in detail in the past..

Though you may have tried out every single idea that people suggested, since
you haven't said what has worked and what hasn't, since you're repeating the
problem as though no one gave you any advice at all, there's a *feeling* you
haven't done anything. It *feels* like you're waiting for someone to give
you an answer that you like.

I'm not saying you haven't done anything. Only that if you want people to
give you help, they'll need to feel like they're being heard and that you're
trying to help yourself. If it feels like the advice is going into a black
hole, people aren't going to feel as willing to spend time helping.

> It IS getting better, but she still misses school and I
> think she would go back in minute if I suggested it.

Why is it getting better? What did you try? What worked? What didn't work?
What are her feelings? What does she say?

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 3:29:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> So - you are forcing her to unschool? Something oxymoronic there --
> maybe she'd like to sign up for online courses or take workshops of
> some kind or do a public school isp or a correspondence course or
> something else that is more what she's comfortable with. It might be
> easier for her to move from a place of comfort to a more unschooling
> life on her own. Or maybe she'd just like to go to school with the
> understanding that you'll let her handle it and let her leave if she
> decides to do that.
>

I copied this paragraph so I could address it specifically, but I also want
to respond to the rest of the stuff you said.

Everything you said, regarding bedtimes, controllers, etc. IS how we have
been handling situations. I am very surprised that you agree with our
decisions. Some of the more "hard core/radical" unschoolers here would
disagree for ME to say I handle them in those manners.( I know, because they
have) But, I feel pretty sure that your approach ( even though its just like
mine) will be accepted and agreed that it's OK.. It is nice to know that
someone who is a regular, well-liked, veteran unschooler on this list sees
some of the "issues" the same way I do.

Now, for Anna going to school. I am not "forcing" her to homeschool, or to
unschool. She CAN go back to public school, but not to the school she was in
before she quit. Its a transportation, money, time, issue. She can catch
the bus and go to the public school in her district, but she does not want to
do that. She IS signed up for several "classes" One of the big struggles
with homeschooling is that the unschooling appraoch is GREAT for the boys..
but not for Anna.. I still think it would be, if she can sort of get
"unconditioned" to her way of thinking about learning/teaching/schoolwork.
I am trying to help her self motivate.. set her own goals, follow her OWN
path of learning, not some laid out plan that someone else makes up. She is
doing better. And there are lots of things about school she does not miss
and she is glad to not be bothered with ( art, PE, homework, several "weirdo"
teachers, bullies, fashion pressure.) Honestly, I spend so much time
"supervising/refereeing/intervening with the boys, I can't really "help" her
find her own way. Everything she wants to do outside of the house, its a
big hassle getting the boys to go along. She feels trapped and frustrated
because its a big ordeal just to go to the library. She is so different
from them. Its a conflict of interests and needs .. Basically, thier
interest is video/computer games and hers are MUCH more varied and geared
toward social involvement and "project" oriented. Its only been about 10
weeks.. we'll figure it out..

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>This seems to make all the difference in the world to Liam when he's having
>a horrendous time of it. If I don't ask first, I'm either invading his
>privacy or I feel helplessly inadequate and want to help. So lately I've
>asked him *if* I could help him/hold him/sit close/listen, whatever. It's
>been very helpful in beginning to change the energy.

This seems so simple, but I don't always remember !! I have asked if I
could help or if she needed to be alone. But I bet I usually do invade her
private space more than I should. Asking her about the simplest act of just
touching her hand seemed to give her contol over the situation and calm her.

We have talked more about what might be triggering these incidents. (It's
been a long time since we've had to deal with this.) It turns out to be a
combo of too much stimulation from her birthday and (even bigger) anxiety
over the fact that I'm going away for a few days this week. Once we started
talking about ways to deal with that anxiety, and redirected her fears,
she's been much more relaxed and the outbursts have calmed. <whew!>

Always learning. I'm always learning.

Life is good.
~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
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Mary Bianco

>In a message dated 2/16/03 12:23:34 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<<It IS getting better, but she still misses school and I think she would go
back in minute if I suggested it.>>




Unschooling can't be a tug of war. It won't work at all that way. That's the
whole idea of where people get the child led term from. My daughter asked
for a math work book last night to do. I could have said well we don't do
workbooks here. She *likes* them and so has Joseph on occasion in the past.
They are here, just not suggested by me for them to do. One of the most
radical unschoolers I have known had a daughter who at 15 wanted to enroll
in Clon Lara. So she did. She *wanted* to do it and did it on her own. It
was something she actually enjoyed doing and although her mother never
suggested such a thing, she was fine with her daughter finding her own way.
That's the point.

My oldest uyse to struggle with school. I desperately tried to get her home
with me. Long story but I needed "permission" from her dad. It never
happened. She still had a hard time in school. Finally we got to the point
where she was miserable and her dad knew he had to okay her coming home.
Well that never happened either. I sat down with her and explained as best I
could how things might be with her home. It was a great option for her to
have and she really gave it quite a consideration. Once she knew she had the
option, or maybe even the power to say I've had enough, things turned
around. SHE turned them around. She stayed in school because it was
something she knew she didn't "have" to do. She's there because she wants to
be. She's pulling a 3.7 right now, working 5 days a week and making plans to
go to college.

I actually thought very long and hard about forcing her to come home.
Thought about it a lot. It would not have been the right thing to do.

Give your child the option of making her own decision regarding school or no
school. Sometimes turning the power over to them will make all the
difference in the world. And if she still wants to go to school, then say
okay. As long as she knows she can come back home the second she decides to.
You might be real surprised how things work out.

Mary B


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 10:57:08 AM, mummyone24@... writes:

<< Once she knew she had the
option, or maybe even the power to say I've had enough, things turned
around. SHE turned them around. She stayed in school because it was
something she knew she didn't "have" to do. She's there because she wants to
be. >>

This is really important.

In most (maybe all) of the school-at-home families I've met or read about,
the parents made that decision without the children's input. They parents
sometimes then make a decision to put the children back on school, without
regard for what the children want.

The difference between "schooling" and unschooling has way more to do with
the relationship between the parents and the children than it has to do with
workbooks or location or hours.

That's not to say that someone with a great relationship with her kids whose
kids are in a Catholic boarding school is an unschooler. What I mean to say
is that if parents are controlling and children aren't free to say "no" (even
to the point of saying "No, I don't want to homeschool anymore, I want to go
back to school), then the children aren't learning in freedom. And until the
child has some independent rights, the miraculous kinds of things that
families report here can't start to happen.

Children who are in school by their own choice are having a different school
experience than those who are there against their will, or who just don't
know there IS an option.

Children who are home by their own choice are having a different
homeschooling experience than those whose parents won't let them go to school
even if they want to.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 12:37:30 PM, grlynbl@... writes:

<< Everything you said, regarding bedtimes, controllers, etc. IS how we have
been handling situations. I am very surprised that you agree with our
decisions. Some of the more "hard core/radical" unschoolers here would
disagree for ME to say I handle them in those manners.( I know, because they
have) But, I feel pretty sure that your approach ( even though its just like
mine) will be accepted and agreed that it's OK.. It is nice to know that
someone who is a regular, well-liked, veteran unschooler on this list sees
some of the "issues" the same way I do. >>

It seems you're more concerned with having other parents tell you you're okay
than you are with what your kids need.

<<Some folks suggested that since the kids are not respecting thier dads need
to sleep, then go ahead and have then turn the stuff off at 10. >>

You're wanting our permission and approval for what you do.

The list is good for suggestions and ideas, but you seem to be using it for
something entirely different, which is direction for your life.

You need to make your own decisions based on all the input you care to
gather, and then defend your own decisions to yourself and your family. It
seems you're taking our advice without regard for how it will or won't work
and then getting angry when it doesn't work.

That doesn't seem to be a healthy use of a discussion list at all.

<<But, I feel pretty sure that your approach ( even though its just like
mine) will be accepted and agreed that it's OK.. >>

It's not clear what you meant, but if you meant to say that Pam won't be
criticized and you would have been for the same statements, Pam has been
unschooling for years, she's thoughtful and she's generous with her time and
energy to help other unschoolers. If she writes something, we trust that
she's really thought it through and is offering it to be helpful.

Pam has never been angry at other people's advice that I know of, and I've
known her on bulletin boards, lists and in person for years. She won't say
something she doesn't believe.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>One of the big struggles with homeschooling is that the unschooling
>>appraoch is GREAT for the boys.. but not for Anna.. I still think it would
>>be, if she can sort of get "unconditioned" to her way of thinking about
>>learning/teaching/schoolwork.>>

Sounds like she needs time to deschool. Time to pretend that there is no
such thing as school or the convoluted notion that learning is hard and must
be work to be valid. Think of it as a vacation. A break. A siesta. Help her
to understand that you truly believe it is okay to take this break. Let her
decompress.

>>I am trying to help her self motivate.. set her own goals, follow her
>>OWN path of learning, not some laid out plan that someone else makes
>>up.>>

Maybe just leave her alone. I don't think you CAN help someone self
motivate. And what exactly are the goals you're thinking she should set for
herself? The cool thing about unschooling is that the paths our kids choose
so often lead somewhere that the parent never could have predicted. It takes
trust and patience. And it takes DE-schooling first.

>>She feels trapped and frustrated because its a big ordeal just to go to
>>the library.>>

Can you take her after dad gets home from work? On the weekends? Hire a cab?
Let's think outside the box here! :o)

>>Its a conflict of interests and needs .. Basically, thier interest is
>>video/computer games and hers are MUCH more varied and geared
>toward social involvement and "project" oriented.>>

What exactly would she like to do that she can't get to right now?

>> Its only been about 10 weeks.. we'll figure it out..>>

Oh you should all still be in the deschooling phase. The worry about nothing
but reconnecting phase. Give yourselves a break!

Life is good.
~Mary


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Pam Sorooshian

On Sunday, February 16, 2003, at 06:52 AM, grlynbl@... wrote:

> Everything you said, regarding bedtimes, controllers, etc. IS how we
> have
> been handling situations. I am very surprised that you agree with our
> decisions. Some of the more "hard core/radical" unschoolers here
> would
> disagree for ME to say I handle them in those manners.( I know,
> because they
> have) But, I feel pretty sure that your approach ( even though its
> just like
> mine) will be accepted and agreed that it's OK.. It is nice to know
> that
> someone who is a regular, well-liked, veteran unschooler on this list
> sees
> some of the "issues" the same way I do.

You must read sort of "selectively," Teresa. Sandra said similar things
to these, too, a couple of hundred posts ago. So have others. I'm glad
you got it though, that what we're talking about doing is not the
extreme - "just let them be" that lots of people think unschoolers are
promoting. It is far from it. It is MUCh harder work than just having
rules and enforcing them, for most of us, at least at the beginning,
until the whole family gets into a flow.

I imagine others are as discouraged as I am by your responses to our
suggestions, though. I hear, "Yeah, but..." coming the minute I start
reading...nothing works, you've tried everything, etc. I'm going to
make one more suggestion -- I really hope you'll read it and take it as
intended - I think you want to live a happier life but that the
specific suggestions you get here are not what you need and that is why
you pretty much reject them all as fast as they come. I think there is
something else you need - that you're hoping to get - and we don't know
what it is and so we're frustrating you as much as you are frustrating
us. And I suspect that when we've gotten just a bit close that you've
reacted negatively and sidetracked the conversation. I bet it has to do
more with your own emotional reaction to your kids and husband than
specific actions. You could probably do exactly what you're doing - but
with a different underlying attitude - and it is that attitude that we
can't help you with (although people have tried) because this is email
and it just doesn't work well.


Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org