Re: Junk Food/TV
Pam Hartley
And we had unlimited access to television/other electronic entertainment
(excluding violent or overly sexual stuff), until, for one of our children,
our 10-year-old son, it became so seductive of his time, that he was missing
out on too much else.
----------
He was missing out on "too much else" of what? Things he wanted to do (in
which case, he would have done them) or things you wanted him to do? If he
had been reading the exact same number of hours he was watching TV, would
you have been as concerned? What if he was reading "junk"?
The cornerstone of unschooling is trust that our children will make good
choices for themselves in learning. Once I decided to trust my children to
learn what they needed, it wasn't hard for me to see that I could also trust
them to eat what they needed and to do what they needed, even if it was what
some would label "junk".
A Johnny Bravo cartoon led my 8 year old and I into a prolonged discussion
of Shakespeare not too many weeks ago. She came to me and asked, "Who is
ShakesBeard?" (this being how Johnny pronounced it on TV). I explained
briefly, she was interested as she likes plays, and it took off from there
and isn't done yet.
This is not an isolated incident. TV is not "junk" to us -- in fact, I have
to admit I find the terms "junk" food and "junk" TV to be elitist crappola,
if I can be blunt. Everything around us, including a cartoon on TV, is a
potential gateway to fascinating new worlds.
----------
My point is this: electronic forms of entertainment are so fun and
addictive, to all of us-- here I sit writing on an email loop, rather than
playing with my kids (I did take a break from writing to go outside and
break off an icicle for my son to eat :-) ) – that my explanations to my
children of how important it is to move your body, cannot match the draw of
these electronic marvels.
----------
There are lots of fun things in the world. I am much more interested in my
children's choosing happily what to do with their time than I am explaining
to them how important it is for them to move their bodies. The result: they
move their bodies without my explanations, when they need to and want to.
----------
I think limits, as controlling an action as it is, might actually be
advisable, if only for a short time, to point out the “other side” of the
picture, not only to the kids, but to ourselves.
----------
I'm not real clear on what you're getting at. You think that those of us
living happily with freedom should all set limits on TV so we can see "the
other side"?
No thanks.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(excluding violent or overly sexual stuff), until, for one of our children,
our 10-year-old son, it became so seductive of his time, that he was missing
out on too much else.
----------
He was missing out on "too much else" of what? Things he wanted to do (in
which case, he would have done them) or things you wanted him to do? If he
had been reading the exact same number of hours he was watching TV, would
you have been as concerned? What if he was reading "junk"?
The cornerstone of unschooling is trust that our children will make good
choices for themselves in learning. Once I decided to trust my children to
learn what they needed, it wasn't hard for me to see that I could also trust
them to eat what they needed and to do what they needed, even if it was what
some would label "junk".
A Johnny Bravo cartoon led my 8 year old and I into a prolonged discussion
of Shakespeare not too many weeks ago. She came to me and asked, "Who is
ShakesBeard?" (this being how Johnny pronounced it on TV). I explained
briefly, she was interested as she likes plays, and it took off from there
and isn't done yet.
This is not an isolated incident. TV is not "junk" to us -- in fact, I have
to admit I find the terms "junk" food and "junk" TV to be elitist crappola,
if I can be blunt. Everything around us, including a cartoon on TV, is a
potential gateway to fascinating new worlds.
----------
My point is this: electronic forms of entertainment are so fun and
addictive, to all of us-- here I sit writing on an email loop, rather than
playing with my kids (I did take a break from writing to go outside and
break off an icicle for my son to eat :-) ) – that my explanations to my
children of how important it is to move your body, cannot match the draw of
these electronic marvels.
----------
There are lots of fun things in the world. I am much more interested in my
children's choosing happily what to do with their time than I am explaining
to them how important it is for them to move their bodies. The result: they
move their bodies without my explanations, when they need to and want to.
----------
I think limits, as controlling an action as it is, might actually be
advisable, if only for a short time, to point out the “other side” of the
picture, not only to the kids, but to ourselves.
----------
I'm not real clear on what you're getting at. You think that those of us
living happily with freedom should all set limits on TV so we can see "the
other side"?
No thanks.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda Elie <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@m...> wrote:
physics law, how does it go, a body at rest stays at rest. Once he
got started he was glad to be doing more active stuff. If you were
to ask him, "in retrospect, would you rather have stayed home and
watched television or are you glad you came skiing", a question I
wouldn't ask, as it would obviously be sarcastic, I'm sure you can
guess his answer. It's hard to get started on something, but once
you do, you are usually glad you did. Without the unlimited presence
of television, it has been just enough of a lack of opportunity to be
passively entertained, that he has found other ways to spend his time
enjoyably, and, I would add, much more enjoyably. I'm sure he would
say the same.
If he
What if he was reading "junk"?
Same problem, missing out on other things. I let him read "junk",
but I would not want him to spend endless hours on it.
There's a lot of clever stuff in those cards' names, and it leads to
a lot of questions, discussions, and research. It's a nice by-product
of the game, but it doesn't make the game valuable when played
excessively to the exclusion of other pysical & social interactions.
My son wasn't! He was a seduced by the tv, and was unhappy, grumpy,
and unfriendly, when he was away from it. His entire manner is much
different now. He smiles more; he connects with others family
members in friendly play; he seems to be altogether healthier!
it has been challenging to my mind, but I'm in NEED of sleep, and
here I am seduced away from what I believe is truly best for me.
And who will suffer -- not only me, because I will be grumpy and
irritable tomorrow, but also my family, who will have to deal with my
sleep-deprived irritability and lack of enthusiasm for the healthier
activities in life - enjoying my time with my husband & kids.
Goodnight -- Lynda
<pamhartley@m...> wrote:
> And we had unlimited access to television/other electronicentertainment
> (excluding violent or overly sexual stuff), until, for one of ourchildren,
> our 10-year-old son, it became so seductive of his time, that hewas missing
> out on too much else.do (in
> ----------
>
> He was missing out on "too much else" of what? Things he wanted to
> which case, he would have done them) or things you wanted him to do?Things HE wanted to do, but was finding it hard to overcome that
physics law, how does it go, a body at rest stays at rest. Once he
got started he was glad to be doing more active stuff. If you were
to ask him, "in retrospect, would you rather have stayed home and
watched television or are you glad you came skiing", a question I
wouldn't ask, as it would obviously be sarcastic, I'm sure you can
guess his answer. It's hard to get started on something, but once
you do, you are usually glad you did. Without the unlimited presence
of television, it has been just enough of a lack of opportunity to be
passively entertained, that he has found other ways to spend his time
enjoyably, and, I would add, much more enjoyably. I'm sure he would
say the same.
If he
> had been reading the exact same number of hours he was watching TV,would
> you have been as concerned?Yes!
What if he was reading "junk"?
Same problem, missing out on other things. I let him read "junk",
but I would not want him to spend endless hours on it.
>good
> The cornerstone of unschooling is trust that our children will make
> choices for themselves in learning. Once I decided to trust mychildren to
> learn what they needed, it wasn't hard for me to see that I couldalso trust
> them to eat what they needed and to do what they needed, even if itwas what
> some would label "junk".discussion
>
> A Johnny Bravo cartoon led my 8 year old and I into a prolonged
> of Shakespeare not too many weeks ago. She came to me andasked, "Who is
> ShakesBeard?" (this being how Johnny pronounced it on TV). Iexplained
> briefly, she was interested as she likes plays, and it took offfrom there
> and isn't done yet.fact, I have
>
> This is not an isolated incident. TV is not "junk" to us -- in
> to admit I find the terms "junk" food and "junk" TV to be elitistcrappola,
> if I can be blunt. Everything around us, including a cartoon on TV,is a
> potential gateway to fascinating new worlds.I agree. My son's current fave thing to do, is play Yu-Gi-Oh cards.
There's a lot of clever stuff in those cards' names, and it leads to
a lot of questions, discussions, and research. It's a nice by-product
of the game, but it doesn't make the game valuable when played
excessively to the exclusion of other pysical & social interactions.
>rather than
> ----------
> My point is this: electronic forms of entertainment are so fun and
> addictive, to all of us-- here I sit writing on an email loop,
> playing with my kids (I did take a break from writing to go outsideand
> break off an icicle for my son to eat :-) ) â" that myexplanations to my
> children of how important it is to move your body, cannot match thedraw of
> these electronic marvels.interested in my
> ----------
>
> There are lots of fun things in the world. I am much more
> children's choosing happily what to do with their time than I amexplaining
> to them how important it is for them to move their bodies. Theresult: they
> move their bodies without my explanations, when they need to andwant to.
My son wasn't! He was a seduced by the tv, and was unhappy, grumpy,
and unfriendly, when he was away from it. His entire manner is much
different now. He smiles more; he connects with others family
members in friendly play; he seems to be altogether healthier!
>sideâ of the
> ----------
> I think limits, as controlling an action as it is, might actually be
> advisable, if only for a short time, to point out the âother
> picture, not only to the kids, but to ourselves.of us
> ----------
>
> I'm not real clear on what you're getting at. You think that those
> living happily with freedom should all set limits on TV so we cansee "the
> other side"?Yes, please, get me away from this computer, I've enjoyed the debate,
>
> No thanks.
it has been challenging to my mind, but I'm in NEED of sleep, and
here I am seduced away from what I believe is truly best for me.
And who will suffer -- not only me, because I will be grumpy and
irritable tomorrow, but also my family, who will have to deal with my
sleep-deprived irritability and lack of enthusiasm for the healthier
activities in life - enjoying my time with my husband & kids.
Goodnight -- Lynda
>
> Pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
>From: "Lynda Elie <lelie@...>" <lelie@...><If he had been reading the exact same number of hours he was watching TV,
would you have been as concerned?>
<<Yes!>>
<What if he was reading "junk"?>
<<Same problem, missing out on other things. I let him read "junk",
but I would not want him to spend endless hours on it.>>
Well I'm not exactly sure what to say about the whole tv thing. I can't
argue with what you say has happened. I just know my kids have always and
are still known to get up right in the middle of a tv program and just walk
away and find other things to do. I just never heard of a child with real
unlimited opportunites becoming a zombie because of it.
As far as you doing the same thing if he was reading a book. I think that's
sad. As one who remembers being so immersed in Dirty Harry that I brought it
to the dinner table and read between bites, without my parents saying
anything but laughing as to how much I was enjoying the book, I would hate
to think how I would have felt if they thought it was junk reading and made
me stop to go outside and play.
Mary B
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/03 11:14:15 PM, lelie@... writes:
<< If you were
to ask him, "in retrospect, would you rather have stayed home and
watched television or are you glad you came skiing" >>
Did he ever actually turn down a ski trip to watch TV?
<< I let him read "junk",
but I would not want him to spend endless hours on it.>>
What kind of reading do you consider to be "junk"?
<< It's a nice by-product
of the game, but it doesn't make the game valuable when played
excessively to the exclusion of other pysical & social interactions.>>
Many times when parents try to declare the value of their children's
interests, the parents are wrong. "Excessive" is hard to define. If you
make him stop while he's still having fun, he will feel deprived. If you let
HIM stop when he wants to, he will stop.
Yu-gi-oh is social interactions. If he prefers it in any one instance to
another social interaction, it seems he's be the best judge of that.
My oldest, Kirby (16), is the one who runs the Yu-gi-oh tournaments at Active
Imagination, where he works. Every Monday night. One family comes from
nearly fifty miles away. Another family had to move to Iceland. They had
really liked Kirby, and they exchanged gifts the last week before the
departure. One dad takes his son who usually lives with his mom. That's one
of the only things they get to do together. Much of the value is not
directly related to the cards!
Kirby goes with Holly to another gaming shop a time or two a week to play
Harry Potter cards. This is the coolest thing Holly and Kirby have ever
shared. It doesn't involve their brother Marty, and doesn't involve me or
their dad. It's a gaming situation that's not at Kirby's reglar
hang-out/place of work. Holly's really proud to have her cool brother go.
Kirby is proud that Holly's big in the middle of that group (it's mostly
homeschoolers), and she's getting better at the game. There couldn't be
very much that I could come up with that would be more important than that to
them.
Sandra
<< If you were
to ask him, "in retrospect, would you rather have stayed home and
watched television or are you glad you came skiing" >>
Did he ever actually turn down a ski trip to watch TV?
<< I let him read "junk",
but I would not want him to spend endless hours on it.>>
What kind of reading do you consider to be "junk"?
<< It's a nice by-product
of the game, but it doesn't make the game valuable when played
excessively to the exclusion of other pysical & social interactions.>>
Many times when parents try to declare the value of their children's
interests, the parents are wrong. "Excessive" is hard to define. If you
make him stop while he's still having fun, he will feel deprived. If you let
HIM stop when he wants to, he will stop.
Yu-gi-oh is social interactions. If he prefers it in any one instance to
another social interaction, it seems he's be the best judge of that.
My oldest, Kirby (16), is the one who runs the Yu-gi-oh tournaments at Active
Imagination, where he works. Every Monday night. One family comes from
nearly fifty miles away. Another family had to move to Iceland. They had
really liked Kirby, and they exchanged gifts the last week before the
departure. One dad takes his son who usually lives with his mom. That's one
of the only things they get to do together. Much of the value is not
directly related to the cards!
Kirby goes with Holly to another gaming shop a time or two a week to play
Harry Potter cards. This is the coolest thing Holly and Kirby have ever
shared. It doesn't involve their brother Marty, and doesn't involve me or
their dad. It's a gaming situation that's not at Kirby's reglar
hang-out/place of work. Holly's really proud to have her cool brother go.
Kirby is proud that Holly's big in the middle of that group (it's mostly
homeschoolers), and she's getting better at the game. There couldn't be
very much that I could come up with that would be more important than that to
them.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 2/14/03 12:07 AM, Pam Hartley at pamhartley@... wrote:
go of controls, or if they find something new, they're going to be
unbalanced for a while as they find the negative consequences are worth
putting up with to get a taste of something new.
But if a child isn't happy doing what he's doing, I'd tackle that and talk
to him about it. Rather than identifying the TV as the problem for him and
imposing a limit, I'd talk about what he wants and how he can get there.
Learning how to recognize problems and find solutions is a whole lot more
powerful and useful life skill than having someone else diagnose your
problems and impose a solution.
Joyce
> The cornerstone of unschooling is trust that our children will make goodAnd it's important to keep in mind that this is in the long run. If we let
> choices for themselves in learning. Once I decided to trust my children to
> learn what they needed, it wasn't hard for me to see that I could also trust
> them to eat what they needed and to do what they needed, even if it was what
> some would label "junk".
go of controls, or if they find something new, they're going to be
unbalanced for a while as they find the negative consequences are worth
putting up with to get a taste of something new.
But if a child isn't happy doing what he's doing, I'd tackle that and talk
to him about it. Rather than identifying the TV as the problem for him and
imposing a limit, I'd talk about what he wants and how he can get there.
Learning how to recognize problems and find solutions is a whole lot more
powerful and useful life skill than having someone else diagnose your
problems and impose a solution.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 3:35:54 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< Rather than identifying the TV as the problem for him and
imposing a limit, I'd talk about what he wants and how he can get there. >>
And maybe he really does want to watch TV in peace!
Sandra
<< Rather than identifying the TV as the problem for him and
imposing a limit, I'd talk about what he wants and how he can get there. >>
And maybe he really does want to watch TV in peace!
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/2003 1:14:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lelie@... writes:
self-regulate. Of how they DON'T become fat, lazy zombies. We can write until
our fingers bleed.
If you can't BELIEVE it's possible with your children. If you can't CONCEIVE
of any other way for them to be. If you can't TRUST in them---forever, NOT
six weeks or five months or some other arbitrary time, then...you're RIGHT.
Your son WILL be happier with limits on the TV, video games, Yu-Gi-Oh! cards,
and books---and he'll be delighted and compliant doing other things YOU find
more important.
But please don't call yourselves UNschoolers, because what unschooling is all
about is---TRUSTING the CHILDREN!
YOU pulled yourself away from the computer last night---of your own volition,
because YOU knew you might be crabby the next morning if you didn't get off
and get some sleep. What if I had come in and TOLD you (right in the middle
of it all) that you'd been on long enough. Go to bed. Or that, while you're
on today responding to THIS post, you need to be washing MY dishes and
mopping my floor---or skiing ot flyfishing---no matter how important this
e-mail is to you RIGHT NOW?
We have ALL grown up to self-regulate. Every one of us. NOT because someone
beat it into us as children (although that's how most of us were raised), but
because we've had time enough away from people who DO require us to do
certain things at their whims. Parents! Who of us wasn't told, "When YOU'RE
paying the rent, you can stay up all night and eat what you want, but while
you're under MY roof...." Even if YOU didn't hear it from your parents,
you've heard it on TV shows and from other families. It permeates our
culture.
We're saying that the CHILDREN can learn to self-regulate EARLIER than WE
did. Don't you remember friends at college who had been so regulated at home
that they went WILD???
Trust the children. THAT's UNschooling.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lelie@... writes:
> My son wasn't! He was a seduced by the tv, and was unhappy, grumpy,We can give real-life, true stories of how we trust our children. Of how they
> and unfriendly, when he was away from it. His entire manner is much
> different now. He smiles more; he connects with others family
> members in friendly play; he seems to be altogether healthier!
self-regulate. Of how they DON'T become fat, lazy zombies. We can write until
our fingers bleed.
If you can't BELIEVE it's possible with your children. If you can't CONCEIVE
of any other way for them to be. If you can't TRUST in them---forever, NOT
six weeks or five months or some other arbitrary time, then...you're RIGHT.
Your son WILL be happier with limits on the TV, video games, Yu-Gi-Oh! cards,
and books---and he'll be delighted and compliant doing other things YOU find
more important.
But please don't call yourselves UNschoolers, because what unschooling is all
about is---TRUSTING the CHILDREN!
YOU pulled yourself away from the computer last night---of your own volition,
because YOU knew you might be crabby the next morning if you didn't get off
and get some sleep. What if I had come in and TOLD you (right in the middle
of it all) that you'd been on long enough. Go to bed. Or that, while you're
on today responding to THIS post, you need to be washing MY dishes and
mopping my floor---or skiing ot flyfishing---no matter how important this
e-mail is to you RIGHT NOW?
We have ALL grown up to self-regulate. Every one of us. NOT because someone
beat it into us as children (although that's how most of us were raised), but
because we've had time enough away from people who DO require us to do
certain things at their whims. Parents! Who of us wasn't told, "When YOU'RE
paying the rent, you can stay up all night and eat what you want, but while
you're under MY roof...." Even if YOU didn't hear it from your parents,
you've heard it on TV shows and from other families. It permeates our
culture.
We're saying that the CHILDREN can learn to self-regulate EARLIER than WE
did. Don't you remember friends at college who had been so regulated at home
that they went WILD???
Trust the children. THAT's UNschooling.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 2/14/03 6:46 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
choosing and is unhappy, then there's something wrong.
If we make a blanket statement that kids will self-regulate if TV is
unlimited, and parents take that to mean they shouldn't listen to what their
kids are saying in their behavior, then the advice becomes rule based and
not awareness based.
I think it's a mistake to zero in on what the child is doing as the problem.
The problem lies in *why* the child is not happy. If a child is freely
choosing (of whatever) and isn't happy, then the problem is helping them
help themselves be happy.
If he wanted to go skiing and felt he couldn't leave the TV, then perhaps
the problem is he didn't feel he had control of what he could watch when.
(As in he was at the mercy of the times the TV stations chose to show
things, which perhaps seemed random to him. And often *does* seem that way
with cable. They shift programs around way more often than broadcast
channels do.) The answer could be recording his favorite shows so he could
watch them when *he* wanted to.
Joyce
> << Rather than identifying the TV as the problem for him andIf he's happy then I'd agree. But if a child -- or adult! -- is freely
> imposing a limit, I'd talk about what he wants and how he can get there. >>
>
> And maybe he really does want to watch TV in peace!
choosing and is unhappy, then there's something wrong.
If we make a blanket statement that kids will self-regulate if TV is
unlimited, and parents take that to mean they shouldn't listen to what their
kids are saying in their behavior, then the advice becomes rule based and
not awareness based.
I think it's a mistake to zero in on what the child is doing as the problem.
The problem lies in *why* the child is not happy. If a child is freely
choosing (of whatever) and isn't happy, then the problem is helping them
help themselves be happy.
If he wanted to go skiing and felt he couldn't leave the TV, then perhaps
the problem is he didn't feel he had control of what he could watch when.
(As in he was at the mercy of the times the TV stations chose to show
things, which perhaps seemed random to him. And often *does* seem that way
with cable. They shift programs around way more often than broadcast
channels do.) The answer could be recording his favorite shows so he could
watch them when *he* wanted to.
Joyce
Lynda Elie <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
year ago we invested in TiVo ( wonderful electronic invention, by the
way). It has helped, but it has also harmed. Now all his favorite
programs are recorded, so he can walk away and be assured that he
won't miss something, but now he has almost 30 hours of television
recorded (shows he has chosen for TiVo to save) and we have enabled a
system which createds even more opportunity to watch television,
because there is always something on that he likes. Electronic
devices - good & bad. Overall, though, I would say good. It has
allowed him to choose skiing over television. As for the reason he is
unhappy when he gets away from the television, I believe it has to do
with the way he settles into a passive, one-dimensional mode, and
then coming back to action and multi-tasking takes some time, and the
transition time is the most miserable time. Once he has been away
from the television for a while, his happier & friendlier personality
shines! In peace -- Lynda
wrote:
> on 2/14/03 6:46 AM, SandraDodd@a... at SandraDodd@a... wrote:there. >>
>
> > << Rather than identifying the TV as the problem for him and
> > imposing a limit, I'd talk about what he wants and how he can get
> >freely
> > And maybe he really does want to watch TV in peace!
>
> If he's happy then I'd agree. But if a child -- or adult! -- is
> choosing and is unhappy, then there's something wrong.what their
>
> If we make a blanket statement that kids will self-regulate if TV is
> unlimited, and parents take that to mean they shouldn't listen to
> kids are saying in their behavior, then the advice becomes rulebased and
> not awareness based.problem.
>
> I think it's a mistake to zero in on what the child is doing as the
> The problem lies in *why* the child is not happy. If a child isfreely
> choosing (of whatever) and isn't happy, then the problem is helpingthem
> help themselves be happy.perhaps
>
> If he wanted to go skiing and felt he couldn't leave the TV, then
> the problem is he didn't feel he had control of what he could watchwhen.
> (As in he was at the mercy of the times the TV stations chose toshow
> things, which perhaps seemed random to him. And often *does* seemthat way
> with cable. They shift programs around way more often than broadcasthe could
> channels do.) The answer could be recording his favorite shows so
> watch them when *he* wanted to.Hello Joyce -- Yes, we had thought of this possibility, and over a
>
> Joyce
year ago we invested in TiVo ( wonderful electronic invention, by the
way). It has helped, but it has also harmed. Now all his favorite
programs are recorded, so he can walk away and be assured that he
won't miss something, but now he has almost 30 hours of television
recorded (shows he has chosen for TiVo to save) and we have enabled a
system which createds even more opportunity to watch television,
because there is always something on that he likes. Electronic
devices - good & bad. Overall, though, I would say good. It has
allowed him to choose skiing over television. As for the reason he is
unhappy when he gets away from the television, I believe it has to do
with the way he settles into a passive, one-dimensional mode, and
then coming back to action and multi-tasking takes some time, and the
transition time is the most miserable time. Once he has been away
from the television for a while, his happier & friendlier personality
shines! In peace -- Lynda
zenmomma *
>A Johnny Bravo cartoon led my 8 year old and I into a prolonged discussionCool. Casey and I ended up reading a book of poetry by Edgar Allen Poe after
>of Shakespeare not too many weeks ago. She came to me and asked, "Who is
>ShakesBeard?" (this being how Johnny pronounced it on TV). I explained
>briefly, she was interested as she likes plays, and it took off from there
>and isn't done yet.
a Simpson Halloween episode that included "The Raven." She ended up LOVING
it all. I never would have thought to read something like that to her at age
8.
Life is good.
~Mary
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zenmomma *
>>Don't you remember friends at college who had been so regulated at homeHey, were we friends in college, Kelly? ;-)
>>that they went WILD???>>
Life is good.
~Mary
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Lynda Elie <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "zenmomma *"
<zenmomma@h...> wrote:
college (during the time they managed to stay) who couldn't focus and
get the work done, because they were so unregulated at home that they
never learned how to focus, and how to a plough through the difficult
stuff to get to their goal. I'm talking about myself here. If ever
I knew someone who was raised in an "unschooling" way, it is me (and
my sister). As a testimonial to unschooling, here I am repeating
much of it, but I can tell you the many pitfalls, we experienced.
This would require quite a long essay - maybe I will find the time to
write it one day :) but not likely, as one of the pitfalls of my
unschooling history is, lots of good ideas but no self-regulation to
put them into effect!!! In peace - Lynda
<zenmomma@h...> wrote:
> >>Don't you remember friends at college who had been so regulatedat home
> >>that they went WILD???>>Very true! But on the flip side, don't you remember friends at
>
> Hey, were we friends in college, Kelly? ;-)
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>
college (during the time they managed to stay) who couldn't focus and
get the work done, because they were so unregulated at home that they
never learned how to focus, and how to a plough through the difficult
stuff to get to their goal. I'm talking about myself here. If ever
I knew someone who was raised in an "unschooling" way, it is me (and
my sister). As a testimonial to unschooling, here I am repeating
much of it, but I can tell you the many pitfalls, we experienced.
This would require quite a long essay - maybe I will find the time to
write it one day :) but not likely, as one of the pitfalls of my
unschooling history is, lots of good ideas but no self-regulation to
put them into effect!!! In peace - Lynda
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Rachel Ann
I was very unfocused, unorganized and a procrastinator all through my school
life and I was far from *unschooled*. I was fairly controlled academically.
Hated school was the problem...most likely because I had undiagnosed LD and
ADD (wasn't seen as a girl problem then).
I still can't focus, and my son still complains I have the worst attention
span...
I'm not certain that anything fits together as neatly as we would like.
Their are children who were controlled so tightly throughout their lives
that as soon as they could get away with something they screwed their lives
up royally. Other's remain *good scouts* all their lives. Or learn to
appear as if they were good scouts.
I think too often we deem a certain method of childrearing will lead to a
certain outcome, and I'm not certain it is true. A lot of it depends on
seeing the child and what the child needs, rather than toeing a certain line
be well,
Rachel Ann
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:42:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Junk Food/TV
--- In [email protected], "zenmomma *"
<zenmomma@h...> wrote:
college (during the time they managed to stay) who couldn't focus and
get the work done, because they were so unregulated at home that they
never learned how to focus, and how to a plough through the difficult
stuff to get to their goal. I'm talking about myself here. If ever
I knew someone who was raised in an "unschooling" way, it is me (and
my sister). As a testimonial to unschooling, here I am repeating
much of it, but I can tell you the many pitfalls, we experienced.
This would require quite a long essay - maybe I will find the time to
write it one day :) but not likely, as one of the pitfalls of my
unschooling history is, lots of good ideas but no self-regulation to
put them into effect!!! In peace - Lynda
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
life and I was far from *unschooled*. I was fairly controlled academically.
Hated school was the problem...most likely because I had undiagnosed LD and
ADD (wasn't seen as a girl problem then).
I still can't focus, and my son still complains I have the worst attention
span...
I'm not certain that anything fits together as neatly as we would like.
Their are children who were controlled so tightly throughout their lives
that as soon as they could get away with something they screwed their lives
up royally. Other's remain *good scouts* all their lives. Or learn to
appear as if they were good scouts.
I think too often we deem a certain method of childrearing will lead to a
certain outcome, and I'm not certain it is true. A lot of it depends on
seeing the child and what the child needs, rather than toeing a certain line
be well,
Rachel Ann
-------Original Message-------
From: [email protected]
Date: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:42:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Junk Food/TV
--- In [email protected], "zenmomma *"
<zenmomma@h...> wrote:
> >>Don't you remember friends at college who had been so regulatedat home
> >>that they went WILD???>>Very true! But on the flip side, don't you remember friends at
>
> Hey, were we friends in college, Kelly? ;-)
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>
college (during the time they managed to stay) who couldn't focus and
get the work done, because they were so unregulated at home that they
never learned how to focus, and how to a plough through the difficult
stuff to get to their goal. I'm talking about myself here. If ever
I knew someone who was raised in an "unschooling" way, it is me (and
my sister). As a testimonial to unschooling, here I am repeating
much of it, but I can tell you the many pitfalls, we experienced.
This would require quite a long essay - maybe I will find the time to
write it one day :) but not likely, as one of the pitfalls of my
unschooling history is, lots of good ideas but no self-regulation to
put them into effect!!! In peace - Lynda
>~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***Very true! But on the flip side, don't you remember friends at
college (during the time they managed to stay) who couldn't focus and
get the work done, because they were so unregulated at home that they
never learned how to focus, and how to a plough through the difficult
stuff to get to their goal.***
***but not likely, as one of the pitfalls of my
unschooling history is, lots of good ideas but no self-regulation to
put them into effect!!! ***
Lynda,
Welcome to the list and I hope you find useful information here. I have
posted the intro to this list for you to read. The focus of this list
is unschooling and trusting children. I don't get a sense from your
post that this is your goal. Perhaps you didn't read long before
posting and maybe it would help you to do that to see the purpose of the
list.
Deb L
~~~Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn
what they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling
parent is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning
with curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the
what, when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles to
Shakespeare to Spongebob Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or
you'd like to find out more about how video games and life in general are
filled with learning, come join us!
As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website, unschooling
is *not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis. Everyone with an interest
in unschooling is welcome to join this discussion, but we ask that you
keep in mind the purpose of this list, which is to discuss unschooling in
ways designed to help each other become unschoolers or become better at
unschooling. We advise reading for a week or two before posting to get a
"feel" for the list and its members, since many listmembers love a lively
debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations.~~~~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
college (during the time they managed to stay) who couldn't focus and
get the work done, because they were so unregulated at home that they
never learned how to focus, and how to a plough through the difficult
stuff to get to their goal.***
***but not likely, as one of the pitfalls of my
unschooling history is, lots of good ideas but no self-regulation to
put them into effect!!! ***
Lynda,
Welcome to the list and I hope you find useful information here. I have
posted the intro to this list for you to read. The focus of this list
is unschooling and trusting children. I don't get a sense from your
post that this is your goal. Perhaps you didn't read long before
posting and maybe it would help you to do that to see the purpose of the
list.
Deb L
~~~Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will learn
what they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. An unschooling
parent is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life and learning
with curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free to choose the
what, when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles to
Shakespeare to Spongebob Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for you or
you'd like to find out more about how video games and life in general are
filled with learning, come join us!
As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website, unschooling
is *not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis. Everyone with an interest
in unschooling is welcome to join this discussion, but we ask that you
keep in mind the purpose of this list, which is to discuss unschooling in
ways designed to help each other become unschoolers or become better at
unschooling. We advise reading for a week or two before posting to get a
"feel" for the list and its members, since many listmembers love a lively
debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations.~~~~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda Elie <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
some reservations about it, which I am discussing here on the list),
Isn't it good to question and be chanllenged in your beliefs? It can
enlighten you, or it can confirm your beliefs - both are worthy. --
Lynda
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
> ***Very true! But on the flip side, don't you remember friends atand
> college (during the time they managed to stay) who couldn't focus
> get the work done, because they were so unregulated at home thatthey
> never learned how to focus, and how to a plough through thedifficult
> stuff to get to their goal.***to
>
> ***but not likely, as one of the pitfalls of my
> unschooling history is, lots of good ideas but no self-regulation
> put them into effect!!! ***I have
>
> Lynda,
> Welcome to the list and I hope you find useful information here.
> posted the intro to this list for you to read. The focus ofthis list
> is unschooling and trusting children. I don't get a sense fromyour
> post that this is your goal. Perhaps you didn't read long beforeof the
> posting and maybe it would help you to do that to see the purpose
> list.Hello Deb: I am an unschooled parent and and unschooling parent (with
> Deb L
some reservations about it, which I am discussing here on the list),
Isn't it good to question and be chanllenged in your beliefs? It can
enlighten you, or it can confirm your beliefs - both are worthy. --
Lynda
>learn
> ~~~Unschooling is the confidence to trust that young people will
> what they need from living their lives in freedom and joy. Anunschooling
> parent is a facilitator and cheerleader who embraces life andlearning
> with curiosity and enthusiasm. An unschooled child is free tochoose the
> what, when, where and how of their learning -- from mud puddles toyou or
> Shakespeare to Spongebob Squarepants! If this sounds like it's for
> you'd like to find out more about how video games and life ingeneral are
> filled with learning, come join us!unschooling
> As discussed on this list and at the Unschooling.com website,
> is *not* defined as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
> learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis. Everyone with aninterest
> in unschooling is welcome to join this discussion, but we ask thatyou
> keep in mind the purpose of this list, which is to discussunschooling in
> ways designed to help each other become unschoolers or becomebetter at
> unschooling. We advise reading for a week or two before posting toget a
> "feel" for the list and its members, since many listmembers love alively
> debate and questioning beliefs to their foundations.~~~~
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/2003 9:44:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lelie@... writes:
hard time doing it on their own. And yes, they generally dropped out or
struggled pathetically through until a friend or professor showed them the
ropes. But the unregulation at home was NOT the problem. These were kids
whose parents ran their lives, so they had NO practice making decisions. Kids
who start at a young age have no probelm making decisions and setting goals
as young adults. It's the kids who are told who, what, when, where, and how
much that struggle.
I personally see a 15 year old and a six year old consistantly making better
and better choices---because they CAN.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lelie@... writes:
> But on the flip side, don't you remember friends atNo. I knew people who were not used to setting their OWN goals and so had a
> college (during the time they managed to stay) who couldn't focus and
> get the work done, because they were so unregulated at home that they
> never learned how to focus, and how to a plough through the difficult
> stuff to get to their goal.
hard time doing it on their own. And yes, they generally dropped out or
struggled pathetically through until a friend or professor showed them the
ropes. But the unregulation at home was NOT the problem. These were kids
whose parents ran their lives, so they had NO practice making decisions. Kids
who start at a young age have no probelm making decisions and setting goals
as young adults. It's the kids who are told who, what, when, where, and how
much that struggle.
I personally see a 15 year old and a six year old consistantly making better
and better choices---because they CAN.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 2/14/03 10:28 AM, Lynda Elie <lelie@...> at
lelie@... wrote:
Nothing much good can come of questioning the values of deeply respecting
and trusting children that are discussed on the list. The discussion would
be over whose values are "better" rather on how well those values work in
reaching a goal of respecting and trusting children.
Just as unschooling is accepted as a given here, so is trusting and
respecting children. Trusting and respecting children isn't up for
discussion any more than unschooling is. What would the purpose be?
On the other hand, questioning what people are basing their beliefs and
practices on is useful. It's very helpful to examine why we believe what we
beleive.
But if those beliefs don't match yours, then the list won't be as useful as
it will be to those whose values are reflected here. Just as a carnivore
won't find much use in a vegetarian list unless they share some of the same
goals. But where the carnivore's goals differ or clash, they should keep
those to themselves.
Joyce
lelie@... wrote:
> I am an unschooled parent and and unschooling parent (withIt depends.
> some reservations about it, which I am discussing here on the list),
> Isn't it good to question and be chanllenged in your beliefs? It can
> enlighten you, or it can confirm your beliefs - both are worthy.
Nothing much good can come of questioning the values of deeply respecting
and trusting children that are discussed on the list. The discussion would
be over whose values are "better" rather on how well those values work in
reaching a goal of respecting and trusting children.
Just as unschooling is accepted as a given here, so is trusting and
respecting children. Trusting and respecting children isn't up for
discussion any more than unschooling is. What would the purpose be?
On the other hand, questioning what people are basing their beliefs and
practices on is useful. It's very helpful to examine why we believe what we
beleive.
But if those beliefs don't match yours, then the list won't be as useful as
it will be to those whose values are reflected here. Just as a carnivore
won't find much use in a vegetarian list unless they share some of the same
goals. But where the carnivore's goals differ or clash, they should keep
those to themselves.
Joyce
Have a Nice Day!
>>>I think too often we deem a certain method of childrearing will lead to acertain outcome, and I'm not certain it is true. A lot of it depends on
seeing the child and what the child needs, rather than toeing a certain line<<<
I agree.
Kristen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 9:08:46 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< But if those beliefs don't match yours, then the list won't be as useful as
it will be to those whose values are reflected here. Just as a carnivore
won't find much use in a vegetarian list unless they share some of the same
goals. But where the carnivore's goals differ or clash, they should keep
those to themselves. >>
Sometimes we get "carnivores" who forget that we've heard all the
anti-unschooling arguments known to man. We're here to help each other
unschool with confidence, not to decide whether we want to unschool.
Sandra
<< But if those beliefs don't match yours, then the list won't be as useful as
it will be to those whose values are reflected here. Just as a carnivore
won't find much use in a vegetarian list unless they share some of the same
goals. But where the carnivore's goals differ or clash, they should keep
those to themselves. >>
Sometimes we get "carnivores" who forget that we've heard all the
anti-unschooling arguments known to man. We're here to help each other
unschool with confidence, not to decide whether we want to unschool.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 5:22:54 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< YOU pulled yourself away from the computer last night---of your own
volition,
because YOU knew you might be crabby the next morning if you didn't get off
and get some sleep. >>
Boy, I didn't.
I played Neopets on my account AND Holly's and then Marty's, trying to
transfer our points over into his bank account (which is up to 140 NP
interest per day), and trying to break 1000 on Destruct-o-Match.
What I was also doing was thinking about what I need to do and have to speak
in Saskatoon in a couple of weeks. I can do pattern games and also think in
words. I can't do word-stuff (reading and writing) and also plan
word-related stuff. So I was doing pattern games so that I was awake enough
to think and so I could let my mind wander over the "assigned territory."
But without Keith here to remind me to go to sleep, without Marty here to
want me to get off the computer, I just went and went, and didn't go to sleep
until 5:00 a.m.
Another factor was I'm not sleeping in my own bed this weekend, but staying
up in the front of the (rambly big) house, with Holly. I hate to go back in
the back and leave Holly all alone in the front without her intimidating big
brothers around. So I slept in Marty's bed. At 5:00 a.m. <g>
Sandra
<< YOU pulled yourself away from the computer last night---of your own
volition,
because YOU knew you might be crabby the next morning if you didn't get off
and get some sleep. >>
Boy, I didn't.
I played Neopets on my account AND Holly's and then Marty's, trying to
transfer our points over into his bank account (which is up to 140 NP
interest per day), and trying to break 1000 on Destruct-o-Match.
What I was also doing was thinking about what I need to do and have to speak
in Saskatoon in a couple of weeks. I can do pattern games and also think in
words. I can't do word-stuff (reading and writing) and also plan
word-related stuff. So I was doing pattern games so that I was awake enough
to think and so I could let my mind wander over the "assigned territory."
But without Keith here to remind me to go to sleep, without Marty here to
want me to get off the computer, I just went and went, and didn't go to sleep
until 5:00 a.m.
Another factor was I'm not sleeping in my own bed this weekend, but staying
up in the front of the (rambly big) house, with Holly. I hate to go back in
the back and leave Holly all alone in the front without her intimidating big
brothers around. So I slept in Marty's bed. At 5:00 a.m. <g>
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
I think you'd be doing a huge service to him to help HIM understand
this aspect of his nature - and begin now to work out how he's going to
live with it as he grows up.
My 18 yo has always been like this too - transitions are always the
unbalanced icky difficult squirrely times for her. It was true at 5
years old and it is still true at 18. The difference is that she knows
it and she has her ways of coping with it and settling herself and
dealing with it. She had to experience it herself to learn that, though
-- along with lots of talk and suggestions and support from us, of
course. The kind of self-awareness she has now, is gained over time and
with experience. It is one reason I encourage parents NOT to set strict
tv times - for those kids who do have problems with tv (and they do
exist), I don't see parents taking control over from the kid as the
best way to help the kid learn how to handle it themselves. And I think
them learning to handle it is more important than the fact that they
get grumpy and difficult along that path.
--pam
On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 05:28 AM, Lynda Elie
<lelie@...> wrote:
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
this aspect of his nature - and begin now to work out how he's going to
live with it as he grows up.
My 18 yo has always been like this too - transitions are always the
unbalanced icky difficult squirrely times for her. It was true at 5
years old and it is still true at 18. The difference is that she knows
it and she has her ways of coping with it and settling herself and
dealing with it. She had to experience it herself to learn that, though
-- along with lots of talk and suggestions and support from us, of
course. The kind of self-awareness she has now, is gained over time and
with experience. It is one reason I encourage parents NOT to set strict
tv times - for those kids who do have problems with tv (and they do
exist), I don't see parents taking control over from the kid as the
best way to help the kid learn how to handle it themselves. And I think
them learning to handle it is more important than the fact that they
get grumpy and difficult along that path.
--pam
On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 05:28 AM, Lynda Elie
<lelie@...> wrote:
> I believe it has to doPam Sorooshian
> with the way he settles into a passive, one-dimensional mode, and
> then coming back to action and multi-tasking takes some time, and the
> transition time is the most miserable time. Once he has been away
> from the television for a while, his happier & friendlier personality
> shines! In peace -- Lynda
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/2003 1:27:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
early. You were logged on when I was up @ 6:30---MY time! <G> Go get some
SLEEP! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> But without Keith here to remind me to go to sleep, without Marty here toI was wondering whether youhad stayed up 'til 5:00 or had gotten up REALLY
> want me to get off the computer, I just went and went, and didn't go to
> sleep
> until 5:00 a.m.
>
early. You were logged on when I was up @ 6:30---MY time! <G> Go get some
SLEEP! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]