Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] OH!.. THATS the answer.. silly me
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/03 2:34:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
throwing temper tantrums around here.. Gosh, I've broken 5 sewing machines, 3
microwaves, and 3 mixers in just the past 6 months.. I also wrecked my car
and punched out my window. I attacked my husband and tried to choke him,
then I kicked him in the groin last night. I yelled at my kids and called
them no-good fuckers and said they were worthless and they ruined my life. .
Just a few days ago the bread I was making didnt turn out right so I trashed
the whole god damned oven. Do you think, when I couldnt get my on loan lap
top from school to come on and I smashed it to the floor and stomped on it,
could that have been a bad example? You know, I never realized how my
behavior could affect my kids . What an insight.. So, do you think, if I
stop behaving like this, my sons will stop too?? Maybe its worth a try.
You know, I really thought you didnt like me, how paranoid of me.. I really
need to work on not being so schizo and afraid that folks are against me.
If it works in Doddville, it MUST work here too.. Thanks again
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> << Then he gets upset and angry or sad.. he feels like "nothingThank you Sandra for your kind and wonderful advice. I will definitely stop
> works for him" , like everyone and everything is against him. >>
>
> Maybe it's genetic?
> Maybe if you or his dad are that way he has it either genetically or by
> modelling.
>
> <<Im talking ANY new thing.. heck, maybe trying something new
> once a month, or even every 2 months But as of now, he resists anything
> "new">>
>
> That's happened even on this list, I think.
>
> Some people see the glass as half empty, some see it as half full, and
> some
> are quick to say that the glass sucks and that other people hate them
> because
> they mentioned "half empty" to them.
>
> The best way I have ever seen or practiced changing children's behavior is
> for me to be the way I want them to be.
>
> Sandra
>
throwing temper tantrums around here.. Gosh, I've broken 5 sewing machines, 3
microwaves, and 3 mixers in just the past 6 months.. I also wrecked my car
and punched out my window. I attacked my husband and tried to choke him,
then I kicked him in the groin last night. I yelled at my kids and called
them no-good fuckers and said they were worthless and they ruined my life. .
Just a few days ago the bread I was making didnt turn out right so I trashed
the whole god damned oven. Do you think, when I couldnt get my on loan lap
top from school to come on and I smashed it to the floor and stomped on it,
could that have been a bad example? You know, I never realized how my
behavior could affect my kids . What an insight.. So, do you think, if I
stop behaving like this, my sons will stop too?? Maybe its worth a try.
You know, I really thought you didnt like me, how paranoid of me.. I really
need to work on not being so schizo and afraid that folks are against me.
If it works in Doddville, it MUST work here too.. Thanks again
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/2003 5:54:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
grlynbl@... writes:
Really, Teresa, I think you may have gone a bit far. Is this the modeling
your children see everyday?
Think about it.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
grlynbl@... writes:
> So, do you think, if IIt's worth a try.
> stop behaving like this, my sons will stop too?? Maybe its worth a try.
>
>
Really, Teresa, I think you may have gone a bit far. Is this the modeling
your children see everyday?
Think about it.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> Thank you Sandra for your kind and wonderful adviceSince you don't have any use for Sandra's advice, why not just ignore it.
Nobody is making you read her posts.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/2003 5:40:28 PM Central Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
She was just exaggerating (see dictionary for word meaning).
I am from North Dakota, and I understood Teres'a post.
Linda
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
>No Kelly,
> Really, Teresa, I think you may have gone a bit far. Is this the modeling
> your children see everyday?
>
> Think about it.
>
> ~Kelly
She was just exaggerating (see dictionary for word meaning).
I am from North Dakota, and I understood Teres'a post.
Linda
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/2003 6:49:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
encadia@... writes:
of "exaggerating". And I understand hyperbole. Understand completely.
What I'm suggesting is that if Teresa will fly off the handle to THIS extreme
with the slightest provocation on an e-list, what's her response to a child
who's totally out of control right in front of her.
THAT was what Sandra meant (I assume, Sandra! I apologize if I'm wrong.) That
if Teresa has little self-control HERE, maybe she also has little at home.
She cannot expect change from her children if she she can't change.
She can always just delete posts from Sandra. It's that easy.
And what does being from ND have to do with anything?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
encadia@... writes:
> Really, Teresa, I think you may have gone a bit far. Is this the modelingI'm sorry, Linda. I'm not understanding YOUR post. I think I know the meaning
> > your children see everyday?
> >
> > Think about it.
> >
> > ~Kelly
>
> No Kelly,
> She was just exaggerating (see dictionary for word meaning).
> I am from North Dakota, and I understood Teres'a post.
of "exaggerating". And I understand hyperbole. Understand completely.
What I'm suggesting is that if Teresa will fly off the handle to THIS extreme
with the slightest provocation on an e-list, what's her response to a child
who's totally out of control right in front of her.
THAT was what Sandra meant (I assume, Sandra! I apologize if I'm wrong.) That
if Teresa has little self-control HERE, maybe she also has little at home.
She cannot expect change from her children if she she can't change.
She can always just delete posts from Sandra. It's that easy.
And what does being from ND have to do with anything?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coyote's corner
That's the secret.be the adult you want your children to be. It's really
the simple and that hard.
Sometimes I find it difficult to be the kind of woman that I want Brianna to
be.
I am not as courageous as she, so I have to force myself, sometimes, to do
something I really dread doing.
I'm not as affectionate as she.but I'm working on it.
I want her to be self sufficient, independent, able to make wise choices,
based on information she is able to gather intellectually.
Be the adult you want your children to be.
Janis who's still growing up.
-----Original Message-----
From: grlynbl@... [mailto:grlynbl@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 5:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] OH!.. THATS the answer.. silly me
In a message dated 2/13/03 2:34:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
throwing temper tantrums around here.. Gosh, I've broken 5 sewing machines,
3
microwaves, and 3 mixers in just the past 6 months.. I also wrecked my car
and punched out my window. I attacked my husband and tried to choke him,
then I kicked him in the groin last night. I yelled at my kids and called
them no-good fuckers and said they were worthless and they ruined my life. .
Just a few days ago the bread I was making didnt turn out right so I trashed
the whole god damned oven. Do you think, when I couldnt get my on loan lap
top from school to come on and I smashed it to the floor and stomped on
it,
could that have been a bad example? You know, I never realized how my
behavior could affect my kids . What an insight.. So, do you think, if I
stop behaving like this, my sons will stop too?? Maybe its worth a try.
You know, I really thought you didnt like me, how paranoid of me.. I really
need to work on not being so schizo and afraid that folks are against me.
If it works in Doddville, it MUST work here too.. Thanks again
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the simple and that hard.
Sometimes I find it difficult to be the kind of woman that I want Brianna to
be.
I am not as courageous as she, so I have to force myself, sometimes, to do
something I really dread doing.
I'm not as affectionate as she.but I'm working on it.
I want her to be self sufficient, independent, able to make wise choices,
based on information she is able to gather intellectually.
Be the adult you want your children to be.
Janis who's still growing up.
-----Original Message-----
From: grlynbl@... [mailto:grlynbl@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 5:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] OH!.. THATS the answer.. silly me
In a message dated 2/13/03 2:34:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> << Then he gets upset and angry or sad.. he feels like "nothingThank you Sandra for your kind and wonderful advice. I will definitely stop
> works for him" , like everyone and everything is against him. >>
>
> Maybe it's genetic?
> Maybe if you or his dad are that way he has it either genetically or by
> modelling.
>
> <<Im talking ANY new thing.. heck, maybe trying something new
> once a month, or even every 2 months But as of now, he resists anything
> "new">>
>
> That's happened even on this list, I think.
>
> Some people see the glass as half empty, some see it as half full, and
> some
> are quick to say that the glass sucks and that other people hate them
> because
> they mentioned "half empty" to them.
>
> The best way I have ever seen or practiced changing children's behavior is
> for me to be the way I want them to be.
>
> Sandra
>
throwing temper tantrums around here.. Gosh, I've broken 5 sewing machines,
3
microwaves, and 3 mixers in just the past 6 months.. I also wrecked my car
and punched out my window. I attacked my husband and tried to choke him,
then I kicked him in the groin last night. I yelled at my kids and called
them no-good fuckers and said they were worthless and they ruined my life. .
Just a few days ago the bread I was making didnt turn out right so I trashed
the whole god damned oven. Do you think, when I couldnt get my on loan lap
top from school to come on and I smashed it to the floor and stomped on
it,
could that have been a bad example? You know, I never realized how my
behavior could affect my kids . What an insight.. So, do you think, if I
stop behaving like this, my sons will stop too?? Maybe its worth a try.
You know, I really thought you didnt like me, how paranoid of me.. I really
need to work on not being so schizo and afraid that folks are against me.
If it works in Doddville, it MUST work here too.. Thanks again
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the
moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
At 11:28 PM 2/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:
personally, that your posts are out of all proportion to anybody
elses. When I read what I assume was your sarcastic post, well, it really
wasn't, was it. Sarcasm as I understand it, is a form of wit intended to
make its victim the butt of ridicule. Wit, as we all know, is a message
whose ingenuity or verbal skill has the power to evoke laughter.
Nobody's laughing and nobody's ridiculing your target. Therefore, it
wasn't sarcastic, nor was it witty. I hesitate to call it by its rightful
name: Vitriol. Bitter ill will. Perhaps you don't realize how clearly
the bitterness comes through? Perhaps it is the pain of your situation
speaking through?
My son has a mild 'special need'. I 'know' it's genetic and he got it from
me (my brothers behave/d similarly.) (and I'm not suggesting anything...
I'm stating it Flat Out. It's a fact.) Does this mean my parenting is not
involved? That his behavior is all his problem or due to his psychological
condition? No.
My parenting has a very real effect on his behavior. When I am at my
'best' parenting to fit his needs, he does fabulously. When I take
shortcuts or am 'browned out' he does worse. So, clearly, my ability to
parent well directly affects his ability to deal with his life.
Sure, your situation isn't mine and I'll never know what you go through
during a day. That doesn't mean I don't have something valid to share.
It also doesn't mean that you can come and talk trash in my, or anyone
elses direction. That's just bad manners.
HeidiWD
>What kind of behavior? Sarcasm? Being a Smart Ass? Oh yeah, Im sure theyWell, okay now. First, I've been reading along and it seems to me,
>model that behavior. More power to them.. If someone makes snide, under
>handed remarks to them, I know they wouldnt sit back and take the bull shit.
personally, that your posts are out of all proportion to anybody
elses. When I read what I assume was your sarcastic post, well, it really
wasn't, was it. Sarcasm as I understand it, is a form of wit intended to
make its victim the butt of ridicule. Wit, as we all know, is a message
whose ingenuity or verbal skill has the power to evoke laughter.
Nobody's laughing and nobody's ridiculing your target. Therefore, it
wasn't sarcastic, nor was it witty. I hesitate to call it by its rightful
name: Vitriol. Bitter ill will. Perhaps you don't realize how clearly
the bitterness comes through? Perhaps it is the pain of your situation
speaking through?
> You know, Mary and Anne( and many others) have special needsGot a shocker for you.
>children.. Gosh, I dont see anyone suggesting that thier kids learned (or
>even inherited) their behaviors from them. We are talking about
>real,physical, psychological conditions here, not some result of bad
>parenting.. For folks to suggest that the parents cause the behaviors ( which
>is what causes so many parents of these children to be isolated and guilt
>ridden) is NOT conducive to helping the parent or the child.
My son has a mild 'special need'. I 'know' it's genetic and he got it from
me (my brothers behave/d similarly.) (and I'm not suggesting anything...
I'm stating it Flat Out. It's a fact.) Does this mean my parenting is not
involved? That his behavior is all his problem or due to his psychological
condition? No.
My parenting has a very real effect on his behavior. When I am at my
'best' parenting to fit his needs, he does fabulously. When I take
shortcuts or am 'browned out' he does worse. So, clearly, my ability to
parent well directly affects his ability to deal with his life.
Sure, your situation isn't mine and I'll never know what you go through
during a day. That doesn't mean I don't have something valid to share.
It also doesn't mean that you can come and talk trash in my, or anyone
elses direction. That's just bad manners.
HeidiWD
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/03 6:40:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
model that behavior. More power to them.. If someone makes snide, under
handed remarks to them, I know they wouldnt sit back and take the bull shit.
But that aint the behavior Im concerned about. ANY body with an ounce of
common sense knows that people who are "out of snyc" are not modeling
behavior they have learned. Sandra just took an opportunity to take a pot
shot at me.. Like she does every time she finds a tender spot. She wants to
always get the last word in and she aims lower every time she punches.
Folks continually tell me to ignore her advice. And I say again, why dont
she ignore my posts? Uhhh, let me see, her kids are perfect, so what in
the world can she offer in the way of advice to folks who have special needs
kids? Can't she just at least sit one out? Maybe let some folks who really
know what they are talking about offer some REAL support, advice and
suggestions. You know, Mary and Anne( and many others) have special needs
children.. Gosh, I dont see anyone suggesting that thier kids learned (or
even inherited) their behaviors from them. We are talking about
real,physical, psychological conditions here, not some result of bad
parenting.. For folks to suggest that the parents cause the behaviors ( which
is what causes so many parents of these children to be isolated and guilt
ridden) is NOT conducive to helping the parent or the child. Oh. let me
see, how can I put it.. It disrupts the flow of the group.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> It's worth a try.What kind of behavior? Sarcasm? Being a Smart Ass? Oh yeah, Im sure they
>
> Really, Teresa, I think you may have gone a bit far. Is this the modeling
> your children see everyday?
>
> Think about it.
>
> ~Kelly
>
model that behavior. More power to them.. If someone makes snide, under
handed remarks to them, I know they wouldnt sit back and take the bull shit.
But that aint the behavior Im concerned about. ANY body with an ounce of
common sense knows that people who are "out of snyc" are not modeling
behavior they have learned. Sandra just took an opportunity to take a pot
shot at me.. Like she does every time she finds a tender spot. She wants to
always get the last word in and she aims lower every time she punches.
Folks continually tell me to ignore her advice. And I say again, why dont
she ignore my posts? Uhhh, let me see, her kids are perfect, so what in
the world can she offer in the way of advice to folks who have special needs
kids? Can't she just at least sit one out? Maybe let some folks who really
know what they are talking about offer some REAL support, advice and
suggestions. You know, Mary and Anne( and many others) have special needs
children.. Gosh, I dont see anyone suggesting that thier kids learned (or
even inherited) their behaviors from them. We are talking about
real,physical, psychological conditions here, not some result of bad
parenting.. For folks to suggest that the parents cause the behaviors ( which
is what causes so many parents of these children to be isolated and guilt
ridden) is NOT conducive to helping the parent or the child. Oh. let me
see, how can I put it.. It disrupts the flow of the group.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
> Message: 23Wow. I totally did not read it that way. Most of the people I know don't
> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:28:55 EST
> From: grlynbl@...
> kbcdlovejo@... writes:
>
>
>
>>> It's worth a try.
>>>
>>> Really, Teresa, I think you may have gone a bit far. Is this the modeling
>>> your children see everyday?
>>>
>>> Think about it.
>>>
>>> ~Kelly
>>>
>
>
> What kind of behavior? Sarcasm? Being a Smart Ass? Oh yeah, Im sure they
> model that behavior. More power to them.. If someone makes snide, under
> handed remarks to them, I know they wouldnt sit back and take the bull shit.
> But that aint the behavior Im concerned about. ANY body with an ounce of
> common sense knows that people who are "out of snyc" are not modeling
> behavior they have learned. Sandra just took an opportunity to take a pot
> shot at me.. Like she does every time she finds a tender spot. She wants to
> always get the last word in and she aims lower every time she punches.
> Folks continually tell me to ignore her advice. And I say again, why dont
> she ignore my posts? Uhhh, let me see, her kids are perfect, so what in
> the world can she offer in the way of advice to folks who have special needs
> kids? Can't she just at least sit one out? Maybe let some folks who really
> know what they are talking about offer some REAL support, advice and
> suggestions. You know, Mary and Anne( and many others) have special needs
> children.. Gosh, I dont see anyone suggesting that thier kids learned (or
> even inherited) their behaviors from them. We are talking about
> real,physical, psychological conditions here, not some result of bad
> parenting.. For folks to suggest that the parents cause the behaviors ( which
> is what causes so many parents of these children to be isolated and guilt
> ridden) is NOT conducive to helping the parent or the child. Oh. let me
> see, how can I put it.. It disrupts the flow of the group.
>
> Teresa
see this as a blame sort of situation but a challenge. And sometimes
several siblings might show some of the same symptoms or a parent might
have suffered as a child and remembered some connections.
Peggy
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], grlynbl@a... wrote:
We are talking about
> real,physical, psychological conditions here, not some result of
bad
> parenting.. For folks to suggest that the parents cause the
behaviors ( which
> is what causes so many parents of these children to be isolated and
guilt
> ridden) is NOT conducive to helping the parent or the child.
Hi Teresa,
I hesitated to write before because my son's special needs are
different, and I haven't much experience with what you are doing.
However, your comment above is one I have heard many times in support
groups among parents of children with ADD/ADHD, OCD, ODD, SID and Bi-
Polar disorders.
I don't know whether this list is meant to be a support group (I
recall once reading that it was not, but I cannot be certain), but it
seems that you need to talk with parents who are facing similar
challenges in helping their children learn and grow.
When your son (the older one) is calm, is he able to tell you what is
going on inside him when he loses control? Is he able to articulate
any words or emotions that seem to trigger a violent outburst?
Are your boys interested in jumping on trampolines, or working out
with a punching bag? My neighbor has an 11-year old son with ADHD
and Asbergers who has frequent outbursts, and she lets him work out
the frustration that way.
Also, when the emotional eruptions happen, are you able to use any
diversionary tactics? For example, when my ds-10 was younger,
whenever he would lose his temper, I would burst into singing "Stop
In the Name of Love"...an old Temptations song. It always made him
laugh, and it would break the escalating temper tantrum.
I hope you find the information you need to help your sons and
youself.
Debbie
Fetteroll
I've probably spent at least 6 hours off list trying to help you figure out
how to handle the aspects of the list that upset you.
This list is not an easy fit for you but you apparently want to stay with it
anyway. If you do want to stay, the bottom line is you're going to have to
change to suit the list because the list is not going to change to suit you.
You must stop using this list and Sandra in particular as your personal
punching bag. If you can't stop and yet still want to be able to get
whatever you're getting from the list, I can put you on Moderated status and
do the filtering for you.
It will be a PITA for you because your posts will be delayed until I can get
around to reading them, which often I can only do in the morning. It will be
a PITA for me to have to take that extra time.
I will accept the next punch you throw as a request for moderation.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
how to handle the aspects of the list that upset you.
This list is not an easy fit for you but you apparently want to stay with it
anyway. If you do want to stay, the bottom line is you're going to have to
change to suit the list because the list is not going to change to suit you.
You must stop using this list and Sandra in particular as your personal
punching bag. If you can't stop and yet still want to be able to get
whatever you're getting from the list, I can put you on Moderated status and
do the filtering for you.
It will be a PITA for you because your posts will be delayed until I can get
around to reading them, which often I can only do in the morning. It will be
a PITA for me to have to take that extra time.
I will accept the next punch you throw as a request for moderation.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "myfunny4 <Debbies4@c...>"
<Debbies4@c...> wrote:
After I wrote this last night, I remembered that there is a group
specifically for parents with children affected by SID. It's here on
Yahoogroups, so I'm sure a search will bring it up. It's a very
large group, though. I'm not a member, although I know several
people who have found information and support there. Also, there is
another Yahoogroup for parents homeschooling children with special
needs. I'm a member of that group, and it has been enormously
helpful; the range of disabilities in children is well-represented
among the members, from the mild to the more severe.
Again, I wish you well.
Debbie
<Debbies4@c...> wrote:
> I don't know whether this list is meant to be a support group (Iit
> recall once reading that it was not, but I cannot be certain), but
> seems that you need to talk with parents who are facing similarDear Teresa,
> challenges in helping their children learn and grow.
After I wrote this last night, I remembered that there is a group
specifically for parents with children affected by SID. It's here on
Yahoogroups, so I'm sure a search will bring it up. It's a very
large group, though. I'm not a member, although I know several
people who have found information and support there. Also, there is
another Yahoogroup for parents homeschooling children with special
needs. I'm a member of that group, and it has been enormously
helpful; the range of disabilities in children is well-represented
among the members, from the mild to the more severe.
Again, I wish you well.
Debbie
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "myfunny4 <Debbies4@c...>"
<Debbies4@c...> wrote:
boomer roots.
Debbie
<Debbies4@c...> wrote:
> For example, when my ds-10 was younger,Sorry about that....it was the Supremes. I guess I'm showing my baby-
> whenever he would lose his temper, I would burst into singing "Stop
> In the Name of Love"...an old Temptations song.
boomer roots.
Debbie
the_clevengers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "myfunny4 <Debbies4@c...>"
<Debbies4@c...> wrote:
unschool, that the typical support groups are all about dealing with
the school system and pressures of school, IEPs and SEPs and bullies
and SpEd classrooms. And this list is all about unschooling, but
maybe people don't fully understand special-needs kids here. So
there's no real perfect place to get advice about it, but this list
is definitely better than most mainstream special needs lists.
I think
that the recent thread on special needs kids has really helped me out
a lot. There are obviously moms here who deal with this double-issue
of unschooling and a child whose brain doesn't exactly work in the
same way as most. And making unschooling work can be more challenging
with a child who is so out-of-sync that sometimes there is no way
that makes sense. Helping them find their path is harder when the
path is more hidden. With my "normal" kid (god, I hate using that
word, but for clarity), all is so straightforward. I can easily see
that if I had two or more kids just like her, I would feel like I had
all the answers. It's my special kid who teaches me that I don't, and
challenges me to find the path of respect, even when it's much, much,
much more difficult.
My post about the haircutting incident is an example. *I* don't model
having a problem with haircut. No one else in our family models this.
It's my son's internal brain wiring that triggers fight-or-flight
responses that would be more appropriate if, say, we were threatening
to burn him with hot irons or something. That's the level of response
his body accelerates to quickly when faced with a seemingly "normal"
stimulus.
To the poster with the boys who throw tantrums, I would suggest
reading "The Out-Of-Sync child", which has been mentioned here a
couple of times. While that might not be any part of the issue, it
might. To a typical eye, it might look like my son is throwing a
tantrum in response to something like getting his hair cut. But in
reality, it's a bodily physical response to a perceived threat. It's
just that his brain perceives things as threats that most people
don't - being touched or hugged, hair brushing, teeth brushing,
unusual surfaces or clothing. So that might be part of the issue.
Maybe the frustrations of living in a body that always feels "out of
sync" boil over. My son used to get frustrated over things that most
people would consider easy - dressing, walking, sitting in a chair.
Helping him, through exercises we do at home, and through outside
occupational therapy, through therapeutic horseback riding and many
other things, his brain is largely re-wired so that these things no
longer cause daily frustrations. The book "The Out-Of-Sync child" was
a real eye-opening life-saver for us in understanding our son.
I'd also say to other people that in responding to a post from
someone with a special-needs kid, take a step back first and see if
what you're saying is really going to be helpful to that mom.
Remember, a parent of a kid like this faces untold stress on a daily
basis, things that parents of "normal" kids cannot even guess at.
What if when you woke up in the morning, your child had trouble with
waking up (light is too bright, causing a "tantrummy" physical
reaction), then with eating (all foods are too crunchy, too soggy,
too crumbly, too whatever), then with getting dressed (changing to a
new texture of clothes is too irritating), then with going to the
bathroom, then with... well the list goes on. By 11:00 am, you're
exhausted! Sure, some of these things are helped immensely with an
unschooling frame of mind. For instance, while clothing textures were
a problem, our son simply slept in the same clothes he wore all day.
He didn't wear pajamas for years. Not having preconceived notions and
power struggles can take you a long ways, but it can't take you ALL
the way, you still have to deal with SO MUCH. It's hard to explain.
Also, this parent of the special kid faces daily the disapproval of
other parents. Surely the tantrums and behavior are her fault, the
product of her bad mothering skills. Perhaps he's clingy because she
doesn't put him in daycare, or he's still nursing. They don't
understand the overwhelming sensory input that's causing him to bury
his head in your pantleg. Then, she's an unschooling parent so she
gets another double-whammy. Not only are the kid's "different"
behaviors the fault of her bad parenting, but of her choice to not
put him in school. Somehow school would "socialize" him better, right?
So then, this list might be a good place for such a parent to maybe
get some helpful input from other folks who not only *unschool* but
unschool a special-needs kid. And let's give that over-taxed mom of
the special kid a break when maybe her fingers fly a little too fast
in defensive-mode on the keyboard when someone suggests that her kids
tantrums are her fault. You see, she's heard it so many times before.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<Debbies4@c...> wrote:
> I hesitated to write before because my son's special needs aresupport
> different, and I haven't much experience with what you are doing.
> However, your comment above is one I have heard many times in
> groups among parents of children with ADD/ADHD, OCD, ODD, SID andBi-
> Polar disorders.it
>
> I don't know whether this list is meant to be a support group (I
> recall once reading that it was not, but I cannot be certain), but
> seems that you need to talk with parents who are facing similarI think the hard thing is, for parents of "special" kids who
> challenges in helping their children learn and grow.
unschool, that the typical support groups are all about dealing with
the school system and pressures of school, IEPs and SEPs and bullies
and SpEd classrooms. And this list is all about unschooling, but
maybe people don't fully understand special-needs kids here. So
there's no real perfect place to get advice about it, but this list
is definitely better than most mainstream special needs lists.
I think
that the recent thread on special needs kids has really helped me out
a lot. There are obviously moms here who deal with this double-issue
of unschooling and a child whose brain doesn't exactly work in the
same way as most. And making unschooling work can be more challenging
with a child who is so out-of-sync that sometimes there is no way
that makes sense. Helping them find their path is harder when the
path is more hidden. With my "normal" kid (god, I hate using that
word, but for clarity), all is so straightforward. I can easily see
that if I had two or more kids just like her, I would feel like I had
all the answers. It's my special kid who teaches me that I don't, and
challenges me to find the path of respect, even when it's much, much,
much more difficult.
My post about the haircutting incident is an example. *I* don't model
having a problem with haircut. No one else in our family models this.
It's my son's internal brain wiring that triggers fight-or-flight
responses that would be more appropriate if, say, we were threatening
to burn him with hot irons or something. That's the level of response
his body accelerates to quickly when faced with a seemingly "normal"
stimulus.
To the poster with the boys who throw tantrums, I would suggest
reading "The Out-Of-Sync child", which has been mentioned here a
couple of times. While that might not be any part of the issue, it
might. To a typical eye, it might look like my son is throwing a
tantrum in response to something like getting his hair cut. But in
reality, it's a bodily physical response to a perceived threat. It's
just that his brain perceives things as threats that most people
don't - being touched or hugged, hair brushing, teeth brushing,
unusual surfaces or clothing. So that might be part of the issue.
Maybe the frustrations of living in a body that always feels "out of
sync" boil over. My son used to get frustrated over things that most
people would consider easy - dressing, walking, sitting in a chair.
Helping him, through exercises we do at home, and through outside
occupational therapy, through therapeutic horseback riding and many
other things, his brain is largely re-wired so that these things no
longer cause daily frustrations. The book "The Out-Of-Sync child" was
a real eye-opening life-saver for us in understanding our son.
I'd also say to other people that in responding to a post from
someone with a special-needs kid, take a step back first and see if
what you're saying is really going to be helpful to that mom.
Remember, a parent of a kid like this faces untold stress on a daily
basis, things that parents of "normal" kids cannot even guess at.
What if when you woke up in the morning, your child had trouble with
waking up (light is too bright, causing a "tantrummy" physical
reaction), then with eating (all foods are too crunchy, too soggy,
too crumbly, too whatever), then with getting dressed (changing to a
new texture of clothes is too irritating), then with going to the
bathroom, then with... well the list goes on. By 11:00 am, you're
exhausted! Sure, some of these things are helped immensely with an
unschooling frame of mind. For instance, while clothing textures were
a problem, our son simply slept in the same clothes he wore all day.
He didn't wear pajamas for years. Not having preconceived notions and
power struggles can take you a long ways, but it can't take you ALL
the way, you still have to deal with SO MUCH. It's hard to explain.
Also, this parent of the special kid faces daily the disapproval of
other parents. Surely the tantrums and behavior are her fault, the
product of her bad mothering skills. Perhaps he's clingy because she
doesn't put him in daycare, or he's still nursing. They don't
understand the overwhelming sensory input that's causing him to bury
his head in your pantleg. Then, she's an unschooling parent so she
gets another double-whammy. Not only are the kid's "different"
behaviors the fault of her bad parenting, but of her choice to not
put him in school. Somehow school would "socialize" him better, right?
So then, this list might be a good place for such a parent to maybe
get some helpful input from other folks who not only *unschool* but
unschool a special-needs kid. And let's give that over-taxed mom of
the special kid a break when maybe her fingers fly a little too fast
in defensive-mode on the keyboard when someone suggests that her kids
tantrums are her fault. You see, she's heard it so many times before.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Pam Sorooshian
Your day-in-the-life description was great.
One thing maybe people also need to remember is that many of us DO have
kids like that, but we don't call them "special needs" kids. They're
just our kids. If kids don't go to school - they don't get labeled and
we just move on with our lives and do what it takes to raise our own
particular kids. There are definitely kids who are EASIER to raise than
other kids - no doubt about that!!!!!!!!! But - I'd just caution about
assuming that those of us who don't claim to have "special needs" kids
don't know about raising our own difficult kids.
One problem is that if somebody's parenting worked really well - then
their kids don't appear nearly as "difficult" by the time they are into
their teens - so they get dismissed as not knowing what they are
talking about and as if they don't know what it is "really" like to
live with these kids. Sandra and I are probably both in that situation
- I remember what Kirby was like as a littler kid and I know what my
now-15 yo, Roxana, was like. I am very much convinced that if we'd been
different parents, we'd have had them labeled and maybe medicated and
we'd have been over on the special needs lists commiserating with other
parents about how hard our lives were. But we listened to unschooling
ideas and lived outside the "special needs" box and now there is no way
of knowing if the way they are now was due to our parenting choices or
just the kids maturing or anything else. All I know is that, over and
over, my ideas have been dismissed by "special needs" parents who look
at my older kids and say I don't know what I'm talking about since I
don't have a special needs kid. The advice of anybody - whose kids end
up happy and functioning and seeming to be relatively "normal" is
tossed out as not relevant.
-pam
On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 09:44 AM, the_clevengers
<diamondair@...> wrote:
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
One thing maybe people also need to remember is that many of us DO have
kids like that, but we don't call them "special needs" kids. They're
just our kids. If kids don't go to school - they don't get labeled and
we just move on with our lives and do what it takes to raise our own
particular kids. There are definitely kids who are EASIER to raise than
other kids - no doubt about that!!!!!!!!! But - I'd just caution about
assuming that those of us who don't claim to have "special needs" kids
don't know about raising our own difficult kids.
One problem is that if somebody's parenting worked really well - then
their kids don't appear nearly as "difficult" by the time they are into
their teens - so they get dismissed as not knowing what they are
talking about and as if they don't know what it is "really" like to
live with these kids. Sandra and I are probably both in that situation
- I remember what Kirby was like as a littler kid and I know what my
now-15 yo, Roxana, was like. I am very much convinced that if we'd been
different parents, we'd have had them labeled and maybe medicated and
we'd have been over on the special needs lists commiserating with other
parents about how hard our lives were. But we listened to unschooling
ideas and lived outside the "special needs" box and now there is no way
of knowing if the way they are now was due to our parenting choices or
just the kids maturing or anything else. All I know is that, over and
over, my ideas have been dismissed by "special needs" parents who look
at my older kids and say I don't know what I'm talking about since I
don't have a special needs kid. The advice of anybody - whose kids end
up happy and functioning and seeming to be relatively "normal" is
tossed out as not relevant.
-pam
On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 09:44 AM, the_clevengers
<diamondair@...> wrote:
> So then, this list might be a good place for such a parent to maybePam Sorooshian
> get some helpful input from other folks who not only *unschool* but
> unschool a special-needs kid. And let's give that over-taxed mom of
> the special kid a break when maybe her fingers fly a little too fast
> in defensive-mode on the keyboard when someone suggests that her kids
> tantrums are her fault. You see, she's heard it so many times before.
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 1:45:54 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< But - I'd just caution about
assuming that those of us who don't claim to have "special needs" kids
don't know about raising our own difficult kids.
I was in a discussion about giftedness once and because I was unwilling to
report my test scores or IQ or whatever they wanted, but wanted to talk about
the problems with setting kids apart based on JUST early verbal ability, I
was told that obviously I knew nothing about giftedness, and so to butt out
of their important discussion.
I could have gotten in by showing them proofs or telling them stories about
my kids, or whatever, but I didn't WANT in. If they were only going to
listen to someone they considered "more gifted" than they considered
themselves or their kids to be, they were lost causes anyway.
Same with education. It's a problem when people only want unschooling advice
from people who are or were once certified teachers, or only want to believe
"scientific studies" (and if you've read many of the reports on which people
get masters and doctoral degrees in education, you'll know always to use
quotation marks on "scientific studies" as regards education).
Do I show them my papers so they'll listen to me that people don't need
papers?
Do I show "proof of giftedness" to get people to believe that it's a bad
thing to have such "proofs"?
Sandra
<< But - I'd just caution about
assuming that those of us who don't claim to have "special needs" kids
don't know about raising our own difficult kids.
>>Good point.
I was in a discussion about giftedness once and because I was unwilling to
report my test scores or IQ or whatever they wanted, but wanted to talk about
the problems with setting kids apart based on JUST early verbal ability, I
was told that obviously I knew nothing about giftedness, and so to butt out
of their important discussion.
I could have gotten in by showing them proofs or telling them stories about
my kids, or whatever, but I didn't WANT in. If they were only going to
listen to someone they considered "more gifted" than they considered
themselves or their kids to be, they were lost causes anyway.
Same with education. It's a problem when people only want unschooling advice
from people who are or were once certified teachers, or only want to believe
"scientific studies" (and if you've read many of the reports on which people
get masters and doctoral degrees in education, you'll know always to use
quotation marks on "scientific studies" as regards education).
Do I show them my papers so they'll listen to me that people don't need
papers?
Do I show "proof of giftedness" to get people to believe that it's a bad
thing to have such "proofs"?
Sandra
Peggy
> I'd also say to other people that in responding to a post fromBut no one suggested that. Sandra suggested a genetic component to the
> someone with a special-needs kid, take a step back first and see if
> what you're saying is really going to be helpful to that mom.
> Remember, a parent of a kid like this faces untold stress on a daily
> basis, things that parents of "normal" kids cannot even guess at.
>
> What if when you woke up in the morning, your child had trouble with
> waking up (light is too bright, causing a "tantrummy" physical
> reaction), then with eating (all foods are too crunchy, too soggy,
> too crumbly, too whatever), then with getting dressed (changing to a
> new texture of clothes is too irritating), then with going to the
> bathroom, then with... well the list goes on. By 11:00 am, you're
> exhausted! Sure, some of these things are helped immensely with an
> unschooling frame of mind. For instance, while clothing textures were
> a problem, our son simply slept in the same clothes he wore all day.
> He didn't wear pajamas for years. Not having preconceived notions and
> power struggles can take you a long ways, but it can't take you ALL
> the way, you still have to deal with SO MUCH. It's hard to explain.
> Also, this parent of the special kid faces daily the disapproval of
> other parents. Surely the tantrums and behavior are her fault, the
> product of her bad mothering skills. Perhaps he's clingy because she
> doesn't put him in daycare, or he's still nursing. They don't
> understand the overwhelming sensory input that's causing him to bury
> his head in your pantleg. Then, she's an unschooling parent so she
> gets another double-whammy. Not only are the kid's "different"
> behaviors the fault of her bad parenting, but of her choice to not
> put him in school. Somehow school would "socialize" him better, right?
>
> So then, this list might be a good place for such a parent to maybe
> get some helpful input from other folks who not only *unschool* but
> unschool a special-needs kid. And let's give that over-taxed mom of
> the special kid a break when maybe her fingers fly a little too fast
> in defensive-mode on the keyboard when someone suggests that her kids
> tantrums are her fault. You see, she's heard it so many times before.
problem. That isn't unknown of or blaming the parent when dealing with
these kinds of symptoms.
While you make a good case, in general, for being sensitive to a
parent's pain, is this really what is the best focus? Looking at it from
the parent's point of view, sure. But from the child's? I don't think a
label or a focus on what is "wrong" would have helped me to be a better
parent, or more kind, or more generous and understanding of the very
different way my youngest responds to the world. If I would have focused
on my needs, rather than hers, I know in my heart that her developing
trust in me and the world would have suffered and in the long run that
trust would have to be reestablished before she would have been able get
beyond the very behaviors that were causing the problems. Getting to the
heart of problems helps in solutions, while finding ways to avoid
looking at them doesn't, and prolongs the suffering of everyone involved.
Many of us were socialized as children to please others and when we
"face the disapproval of other parents" we might have the strength or
the will to stand firm in supporting our children's 'differences' or
maybe we won't. Especially when the behaviors seem to reflect badly on
our methods of parenting. Maybe we try to change our child rather than
honor or respect their needs in the face of disapproval. Maybe it
backfires and the symptoms of 'dis' ease get worse and we feel guilty
and angry and sad that we tried to be a pleaser rather than stand up for
our kid's rights and it *still* didn't work and we have an even *less*
pleasing child. I know I've backed down at times in supporting my child
and hated myself afterward for wanting to please or accommodate others
in the face of disapproval rather than stand up for my child.
I think we can get bogged down in diagnoses and labels of behaviors and
that can get in the way of the actions we need to take, today, to make
the changes our children need from us. Maybe some people have a harder
time than others of letting of the dreams they had or the fantasy they
imagined life would be with their children when it turns out
differently. Should we support them in keeping that fantasy alive or
should we help them gain insights that could change their current
unhappy reality?
Peggy
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
In some cases, the child has disabilities that require "labels" in
order to receive therapeutic services, such as physical,
occupational, vision and speech therapy. As a member of a list for
homeschooling children with special needs for three years, I do not
recall "commiserating with other parents about how hard our lives
were". I have commiserated with other parents about the side effects
of seizure medications, and the lack of appropriate toys for children
with little fine motor skills.
Debbie
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> I am very much convinced that if we'd beenand
> different parents, we'd have had them labeled and maybe medicated
> we'd have been over on the special needs lists commiserating withother
> parents about how hard our lives were.Dear Pam,
In some cases, the child has disabilities that require "labels" in
order to receive therapeutic services, such as physical,
occupational, vision and speech therapy. As a member of a list for
homeschooling children with special needs for three years, I do not
recall "commiserating with other parents about how hard our lives
were". I have commiserated with other parents about the side effects
of seizure medications, and the lack of appropriate toys for children
with little fine motor skills.
Debbie
[email protected]
On Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:44:33 -0000 "the_clevengers
<diamondair@...>" <diamondair@...> writes:
continuum, and the fit between the child and his environment seems to
make the most difference, IME.
When Rain was 4 or so she insisted on wearing socks all the time. She
slept in socks, she wore socks with sandals, she went swimming with socks
on sometimes. She just couldn't bear the feeling of anything on her feet
except socks (and not ust any socks, but that's another story).
When she was 5 and 6 she would get angry at me for things that had
happened years ago (things that hadn't been as issue when they
happened... she'd just latch on to something) and rage for an hour or
more, kicking, spitting, hitting... and she was a big kid, 60 pounds or
so. I felt like I was walking on eggshells for a year or more, to keep
from setting her off, and it didn't help that I had such a hard time
figuring out what was *really* setting her off.
I worked as a special ed teacher, with kids who had been labeled as
having emotional and behavioral disabilities. A lot of what I saw with
them was the same kind of stuff I saw with Rain during some stages - and
in both cases, when I was able to change the environment the kids had an
easier time, although it didn't happen right away and it wasn't perfect.
Still, it helps me to just think of all of the kids in my life as
individuals, and see what they need. It seems odd to me to do things any
other way.
Rain is incredibly easy to live with now, which blows my mind ever time I
think of her at 6. OTOH, there are a couple of kids in the play she's
doing now who would probably be labeled in a school setting. One needs a
partner, because she has a harder time learning to steps and remembering
where to go when. The other needs more responsibilities, because if he
doesn't have something to do, he finds himself something, and it's not
always a helpful thing. So he's the one the rest of the ensemble takes
their cues from; he leads them on and off stage. He also had trouble with
how his costume felt, so we were able to switch his for a different one
(they all look the same to me, but clearly they feel different).
Some of the other kids in the show need different kinds of help. The
youngest kids are 5 and 6, and they need more help with their
costumes.The oldest are 13 and 14, and they need more privacy when
changing. There are 18 kids in the group, and I think they're all having
fun, and getting what they need.
I don't want to deny that some kids are easier to parent than others, or,
to be more specific, some kids are easier for some parents at some times.
Rain rarely wears pajamas and I've never much cared; she also (until
maybe a year ago) wore the same beloved clothes for years, even though
they had holes and stains. For me, and for our life, that wasn't an
issue. OTOH, I get easily overwhelmed by sound, and kids who talk their
way through things as they figure them out really wear me out. I can deal
with it when it's a friend over for the afternoon, but if my kid was like
that it would be a problem for us. Having a baby who cried when she was
set down and cried if she wasn't held the "right" way (upright and facing
out) wore me out, but back then I didn't know there were actually babies
you could put down, and I was so glad she wasn't like my sister, who had
colic and cried for 4 hours a day no matter what we did.
Dar
<diamondair@...>" <diamondair@...> writes:
>double-issue
> I think
> that the recent thread on special needs kids has really helped me
> out a lot. There are obviously moms here who deal with this
> of unschooling and a child whose brain doesn't exactly work in theI think the "special needs" vs. "normal" paradigm is false. It's all a
> same way as most. And making unschooling work can be more challenging
> with a child who is so out-of-sync that sometimes there is no way
> that makes sense.
continuum, and the fit between the child and his environment seems to
make the most difference, IME.
When Rain was 4 or so she insisted on wearing socks all the time. She
slept in socks, she wore socks with sandals, she went swimming with socks
on sometimes. She just couldn't bear the feeling of anything on her feet
except socks (and not ust any socks, but that's another story).
When she was 5 and 6 she would get angry at me for things that had
happened years ago (things that hadn't been as issue when they
happened... she'd just latch on to something) and rage for an hour or
more, kicking, spitting, hitting... and she was a big kid, 60 pounds or
so. I felt like I was walking on eggshells for a year or more, to keep
from setting her off, and it didn't help that I had such a hard time
figuring out what was *really* setting her off.
I worked as a special ed teacher, with kids who had been labeled as
having emotional and behavioral disabilities. A lot of what I saw with
them was the same kind of stuff I saw with Rain during some stages - and
in both cases, when I was able to change the environment the kids had an
easier time, although it didn't happen right away and it wasn't perfect.
Still, it helps me to just think of all of the kids in my life as
individuals, and see what they need. It seems odd to me to do things any
other way.
Rain is incredibly easy to live with now, which blows my mind ever time I
think of her at 6. OTOH, there are a couple of kids in the play she's
doing now who would probably be labeled in a school setting. One needs a
partner, because she has a harder time learning to steps and remembering
where to go when. The other needs more responsibilities, because if he
doesn't have something to do, he finds himself something, and it's not
always a helpful thing. So he's the one the rest of the ensemble takes
their cues from; he leads them on and off stage. He also had trouble with
how his costume felt, so we were able to switch his for a different one
(they all look the same to me, but clearly they feel different).
Some of the other kids in the show need different kinds of help. The
youngest kids are 5 and 6, and they need more help with their
costumes.The oldest are 13 and 14, and they need more privacy when
changing. There are 18 kids in the group, and I think they're all having
fun, and getting what they need.
I don't want to deny that some kids are easier to parent than others, or,
to be more specific, some kids are easier for some parents at some times.
Rain rarely wears pajamas and I've never much cared; she also (until
maybe a year ago) wore the same beloved clothes for years, even though
they had holes and stains. For me, and for our life, that wasn't an
issue. OTOH, I get easily overwhelmed by sound, and kids who talk their
way through things as they figure them out really wear me out. I can deal
with it when it's a friend over for the afternoon, but if my kid was like
that it would be a problem for us. Having a baby who cried when she was
set down and cried if she wasn't held the "right" way (upright and facing
out) wore me out, but back then I didn't know there were actually babies
you could put down, and I was so glad she wasn't like my sister, who had
colic and cried for 4 hours a day no matter what we did.
Dar
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "the_clevengers
<diamondair@e...>" <diamondair@e...> wrote:
school system, but there is a homeschooling list for children with
special needs. Even that list cannot provide much unschooling help,
though. There are a few unschoolers on the list, but not many. I
find that parents homeschooling children with special needs are more
likely to "let go" of the school model; most of them turn to
homeschooling because the school has failed, and many are willing to
try anything that is NOT school.
have benefitted because of what *I* have learned from my youngest
child with disabilities.
My son is physically and cognitively disabled, and most of our
challenges stem from those disabilities. Kevin does not tantrum, but
he can be extraordinarily stubborn about NOT doing something. <g>
my son and for my other children. I don't "expect" him to achieve
anything, or to meet any goals. He will learn what he wants to
learn, and he will work toward his own goals. I just want him to be
happy. I will help him in any way I can, and that is usually finding
or adapting toys for him to play with, making books that he can see,
covering walls with different textures to feel, etc. Once my
thinking adjusted for my youngest child, I began to see my other
children differently, also.
The only advice I give to other mothers of children with special
needs, it is to stop trying to "fix" your child, and start loving
your child unconditionally - really, truly, unconditionally.
Unfortunately, when I discuss homeschooling a child with special
needs with other parents, I hear comments "if I can get her to stop
doing this," or "tell me how to make him do this...". Granted, it's
hard to love unconditionally in the moment when your child is biting
you REALLY HARD because he is frustrated and non-verbal, but dislodge
his teeth from your arm, step back, breathe, and remember that he IS
communicating with you; and love him enough to swallow your own
frustration and focus on his frustration, instead.
I enjoyed reading your post, Robin.
Debbie
<diamondair@e...>" <diamondair@e...> wrote:
>with
> I think the hard thing is, for parents of "special" kids who
> unschool, that the typical support groups are all about dealing
> the school system and pressures of school, IEPs and SEPs andbullies
> and SpEd classrooms.It is true that many "special needs" support groups deal with the
school system, but there is a homeschooling list for children with
special needs. Even that list cannot provide much unschooling help,
though. There are a few unschoolers on the list, but not many. I
find that parents homeschooling children with special needs are more
likely to "let go" of the school model; most of them turn to
homeschooling because the school has failed, and many are willing to
try anything that is NOT school.
> It's my special kid who teaches me that I don't, andmuch,
> challenges me to find the path of respect, even when it's much,
> much more difficult.I agree, and you expressed it so well <g>. My three typical children
have benefitted because of what *I* have learned from my youngest
child with disabilities.
> I'd also say to other people that in responding to a post fromIt was for that reason that I hesitated to give Teresa any advice.
> someone with a special-needs kid, take a step back first and see if
> what you're saying is really going to be helpful to that mom.
My son is physically and cognitively disabled, and most of our
challenges stem from those disabilities. Kevin does not tantrum, but
he can be extraordinarily stubborn about NOT doing something. <g>
> Sure, some of these things are helped immensely with anWhat has helped me the most is letting go of my own expectations, for
> unschooling frame of mind.
my son and for my other children. I don't "expect" him to achieve
anything, or to meet any goals. He will learn what he wants to
learn, and he will work toward his own goals. I just want him to be
happy. I will help him in any way I can, and that is usually finding
or adapting toys for him to play with, making books that he can see,
covering walls with different textures to feel, etc. Once my
thinking adjusted for my youngest child, I began to see my other
children differently, also.
The only advice I give to other mothers of children with special
needs, it is to stop trying to "fix" your child, and start loving
your child unconditionally - really, truly, unconditionally.
Unfortunately, when I discuss homeschooling a child with special
needs with other parents, I hear comments "if I can get her to stop
doing this," or "tell me how to make him do this...". Granted, it's
hard to love unconditionally in the moment when your child is biting
you REALLY HARD because he is frustrated and non-verbal, but dislodge
his teeth from your arm, step back, breathe, and remember that he IS
communicating with you; and love him enough to swallow your own
frustration and focus on his frustration, instead.
I enjoyed reading your post, Robin.
Debbie
Pam Sorooshian
I know that, Debbie.
I'm saying that I, personally, have a kid who could easily have put me
over there doing that, too. But there is no way for me to convince
anybody of that, now that she's a 15 yo who comes across as happy,
calm, well-behaved, interesting, and relatively "normal." (She's still
certainly not your everyday 15 yo, though, but that's another story.)
My point was that some people automatically dismiss advice or ideas
from people who have kids who don't appear to be "special needs" - but
that might just mean they are excluding advice from the very people who
have been most successful at parenting kids most like their own.
Roxana was very explosive, very angry, very difficult. She is still
dramatic and extremely sensitive and has quite a temper - but she is
also a wonderful wonderful person who is fun to be around and
functions, at 15, extremely well - she's in theater groups and takes
college courses and so on. Maybe I had NOTHING to do with how she's
grown up - it is true that people who knew her well, all those years,
comment frequently how lucky she was to have had me as her mom - but
maybe they are totally wrong and she'd have been just fine no matter
how she was parented. I'm too vested to believe that, of course <G>.
Again, my point was that I didn't exclude people whose kids were in
great shape from the pool of people I'd gladly listen to - and I'm glad
I didn't because, looking back, the unschooling life has been
absolutely the very very best gift I could have EVER given Roxana.
-pam
On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 01:41 PM, myfunny4
<Debbies4@...> wrote:
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
I'm saying that I, personally, have a kid who could easily have put me
over there doing that, too. But there is no way for me to convince
anybody of that, now that she's a 15 yo who comes across as happy,
calm, well-behaved, interesting, and relatively "normal." (She's still
certainly not your everyday 15 yo, though, but that's another story.)
My point was that some people automatically dismiss advice or ideas
from people who have kids who don't appear to be "special needs" - but
that might just mean they are excluding advice from the very people who
have been most successful at parenting kids most like their own.
Roxana was very explosive, very angry, very difficult. She is still
dramatic and extremely sensitive and has quite a temper - but she is
also a wonderful wonderful person who is fun to be around and
functions, at 15, extremely well - she's in theater groups and takes
college courses and so on. Maybe I had NOTHING to do with how she's
grown up - it is true that people who knew her well, all those years,
comment frequently how lucky she was to have had me as her mom - but
maybe they are totally wrong and she'd have been just fine no matter
how she was parented. I'm too vested to believe that, of course <G>.
Again, my point was that I didn't exclude people whose kids were in
great shape from the pool of people I'd gladly listen to - and I'm glad
I didn't because, looking back, the unschooling life has been
absolutely the very very best gift I could have EVER given Roxana.
-pam
On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 01:41 PM, myfunny4
<Debbies4@...> wrote:
> In some cases, the child has disabilities that require "labels" inPam Sorooshian
> order to receive therapeutic services, such as physical,
> occupational, vision and speech therapy. As a member of a list for
> homeschooling children with special needs for three years, I do not
> recall "commiserating with other parents about how hard our lives
> were". I have commiserated with other parents about the side effects
> of seizure medications, and the lack of appropriate toys for children
> with little fine motor skills.
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
Pam Sorooshian
On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, myfunny4
<Debbies4@...> wrote:
it so much that you didn't see your youngest child as so 'different'
that what worked well for him wasn't worth considering for the other
kids too --- this statement really speaks so loudly about your
attitude. It is refreshing and sweet and encouraging!!!
Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
<Debbies4@...> wrote:
> Once myYou said this before and I meant to say something then -- I just like
> thinking adjusted for my youngest child, I began to see my other
> children differently, also.
it so much that you didn't see your youngest child as so 'different'
that what worked well for him wasn't worth considering for the other
kids too --- this statement really speaks so loudly about your
attitude. It is refreshing and sweet and encouraging!!!
Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 12:57:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Debbies4@... writes:
few of those too.. But, they don't advocate unschooling.. Most folks dealing
with special needs children try to follow a structure and to carefully
control the childs environment When Mary and Anne came on this group and
offered advice, support and suggestions for unschooling special needs kids
(as they do it quite successfully), I thought perhaps I could pick thier
brains. Honestly, I guess there needs to be a seperate group for
unschooling special needs children. There is just too much emotion and
misunderstanding to discuss it here.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debbies4@... writes:
> I hope you find the information you need to help your sons andThanks Debbie. I know this is not a "special needs" group. I am subbed on a
> youself.
>
> Debbie
>
few of those too.. But, they don't advocate unschooling.. Most folks dealing
with special needs children try to follow a structure and to carefully
control the childs environment When Mary and Anne came on this group and
offered advice, support and suggestions for unschooling special needs kids
(as they do it quite successfully), I thought perhaps I could pick thier
brains. Honestly, I guess there needs to be a seperate group for
unschooling special needs children. There is just too much emotion and
misunderstanding to discuss it here.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/03 6:45:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
she always throws at me first, and you know it. I doubt you have warned her
of being moderated.. . Really, I dont care, moderate me if you want to. If
you read through EVERYTHING I post to approve it. . you will see how much
"non aggressive towards Sandra" stuff I post. Do you really think my goal
is to bicker with Sandra? It her goal to get folks riled up, youve admitted
it yourself., moderating a group with Sandra on it is a thankless job.
Sandra needs to thank you for having her back and making sure no one goes
against her.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
> I will accept the next punch you throw as a request for moderation.Joyce,
>
she always throws at me first, and you know it. I doubt you have warned her
of being moderated.. . Really, I dont care, moderate me if you want to. If
you read through EVERYTHING I post to approve it. . you will see how much
"non aggressive towards Sandra" stuff I post. Do you really think my goal
is to bicker with Sandra? It her goal to get folks riled up, youve admitted
it yourself., moderating a group with Sandra on it is a thankless job.
Sandra needs to thank you for having her back and making sure no one goes
against her.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
myfunny4 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
people shouldn't make assumptions about other people until they know
where those people have been, not just where they are now.
typical kids who gave me some great advice on a problem with Kevin's
dental care. Kevin doesn't eat, but dental hygiene is still
important for him, especially because his chemotherapy affected his
tooth enamel. I tried modeling tooth-brushing for him; I tried every
type of toothbrush head I could find, from extra soft to extra firm;
I tried using an grip-adaptor on his hand so he could hold the
toothbrush himself (and he nearly put my eye out with the
toothbrush!); but none of this worked. I refused to restrain him
against his will to clean his teeth, but I was at a loss. This mom
suggested I try a vibrating toothbrush. The vibrations fascinated
Kevin so much he let me put the toothbrush into his mouth; and it was
a start. As the days passed, he became more comfortable with the
toothbrush, and gradually I began to move the brush over his teeth.
That was over a year ago, and today Kevin cheerfully lets me brush
his teeth every morning and night...using a vibrating toothbrush, of
course! <g>
Debbie
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> My point was that some people automatically dismiss advice or ideasbut
> from people who have kids who don't appear to be "special needs" -
> that might just mean they are excluding advice from the very peoplewho
> have been most successful at parenting kids most like their own.OK. Thanks for the explanation. I *think* <g> you're saying that
people shouldn't make assumptions about other people until they know
where those people have been, not just where they are now.
> Again, my point was that I didn't exclude people whose kids were inYour point is taken with appreciation. It was a mom with very
> great shape from the pool of people I'd gladly listen to -
typical kids who gave me some great advice on a problem with Kevin's
dental care. Kevin doesn't eat, but dental hygiene is still
important for him, especially because his chemotherapy affected his
tooth enamel. I tried modeling tooth-brushing for him; I tried every
type of toothbrush head I could find, from extra soft to extra firm;
I tried using an grip-adaptor on his hand so he could hold the
toothbrush himself (and he nearly put my eye out with the
toothbrush!); but none of this worked. I refused to restrain him
against his will to clean his teeth, but I was at a loss. This mom
suggested I try a vibrating toothbrush. The vibrations fascinated
Kevin so much he let me put the toothbrush into his mouth; and it was
a start. As the days passed, he became more comfortable with the
toothbrush, and gradually I began to move the brush over his teeth.
That was over a year ago, and today Kevin cheerfully lets me brush
his teeth every morning and night...using a vibrating toothbrush, of
course! <g>
Debbie
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/2003 3:42:19 PM Central Standard Time,
Debbies4@... writes:
a response is what is great about these group lists of what others have
done who understand the situation.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debbies4@... writes:
> Subj: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: OH!.. THATS the answer.. silly meExactly, this has to be the bottom line. Explaining a situation and getting
> Date: 2/14/2003 3:42:19 PM Central Standard Time
> From: <A HREF="mailto:Debbies4@...">Debbies4@...</A>
> Reply-to: <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>
> To: <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
> <pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> >I am very much convinced that if we'd been
> >different parents, we'd have had them labeled and maybe medicated
> and
> >we'd have been over on the special needs lists commiserating with
> other
> >parents about how hard our lives were.
>
> Dear Pam,
> In some cases, the child has disabilities that require "labels" in
> order to receive therapeutic services, such as physical,
> occupational, vision and speech therapy. As a member of a list for
> homeschooling children with special needs for three years, I do not
> recall "commiserating with other parents about how hard our lives
> were". I have commiserated with other parents about the side effects
> of seizure medications, and the lack of appropriate toys for children
> with little fine motor skills.
>
> Debbie
a response is what is great about these group lists of what others have
done who understand the situation.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the_clevengers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Shyrley
<shyrley.williams@v...> wrote:
school, I'm sure he would have one or more tags to describe him.
However, I do think it is helpful, in this world of words typed on a
screen, to use words such as "special needs", because otherwise we
would have to type out some lengthy description/disclaimer each
time. I *do* think that there are kids out there who, for whatever
reason, offer challenges that are on the extreme ends of the
spectrum. And I also think it is helpful if people, whether they
believe in saying their kids are special needs or different or
whatever, can share their experiences in dealing with these extremes
specifically. Especially people who have older kids who can see
further around the bend than some of us who are still parenting
quite young children. I do have faith that what I am doing is the
right way to help my kids each keep and explore their own unique way
of being in this world, but it still helps to hear from the other
end of the age spectrum that yes, this is true.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<shyrley.williams@v...> wrote:
>DO have
>
> Pam Sorooshian wrote:
>
> > Your day-in-the-life description was great.
> >
> > One thing maybe people also need to remember is that many of us
> > kids like that, but we don't call them "special needs" kids.They're
> > just our kids. If kids don't go to school - they don't getlabeled and
> > we just move on with our lives and do what it takes to raise ourown
> > particular kids. There are definitely kids who are EASIER toraise than
> > other kids - no doubt about that!!!!!!!!! But - I'd just cautionabout
> > assuming that those of us who don't claim to have "specialneeds" kids
> > don't know about raising our own difficult kids.autistic at school. One of the others would be labelled ADHD.
> >
>
> You just said what I was thinking. One of my kids was labelled
> Luckily they ain't at school any more so now they are just people,one of whom has a unique way of looking at the world.
>I agree. Who knows what my kid would be labeled if I sent him to
> Shyrley
school, I'm sure he would have one or more tags to describe him.
However, I do think it is helpful, in this world of words typed on a
screen, to use words such as "special needs", because otherwise we
would have to type out some lengthy description/disclaimer each
time. I *do* think that there are kids out there who, for whatever
reason, offer challenges that are on the extreme ends of the
spectrum. And I also think it is helpful if people, whether they
believe in saying their kids are special needs or different or
whatever, can share their experiences in dealing with these extremes
specifically. Especially people who have older kids who can see
further around the bend than some of us who are still parenting
quite young children. I do have faith that what I am doing is the
right way to help my kids each keep and explore their own unique way
of being in this world, but it still helps to hear from the other
end of the age spectrum that yes, this is true.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
the_clevengers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], freeform@j... wrote:
more convenient (for the sake of discussions here, not for the sake
of the way I think of or talk to my kid at home) to have some sort
of way of referring to kids who are on the extreme end of the
spectrum (and I don't mean "spectrum" to refer to autism as it
currently does these days, but just the spectrum of human behavior).
Insisting on wearing shoes all day is somewhere on the continuum.
Not being able to walk across any surface without severe discomfort
is on the extreme end. Being sensitive to light is one thing. Not
being able to go out of a darkened house is on the extreme end.
Parenting the extreme can be exhausting and difficult, and I do
think it helps to be able to talk about it and listen to others who
have found ways to parent these extreme kids and still respect them.
Especially because most of the literature, support groups, etc. out
there is not child-respecting, concentrates more on the labels than
on the individual kids, and is usually mostly concerned with
navigating the school system.
Personally, for me it really helped to hear about the "label" (which
in our case was SID) because it helped me to understand the ways in
which the intense reactions to stimulus in kids who are on the
extreme end of the sensory integration continuum come through in
their behavior. It helped me to understand the things I could change
in our environment that made a big difference. Otherwise, I might
not have know that a child who hated any kind of touch would
actually crave deep touch - voila, I tried it and it worked for my
kid. I do think that the sharing of ways in which people have
parented, and most especially shared an unschooling life with, their
extreme kids can be really helpful to others who are on the early
part of that journey.
I also think that in a way, the "label" can help a child understand
themselves. I too have some extreme sensory issues, and I have a
very clear memory of believing as a child that I was an alien from
another planet who had come to earth and inhabited a human body, and
was adopted by my parents. I had no other way to explain why I felt
and saw and heard things so differently from other humans. I'm glad
that I can explain to my child a little more plainly why, exactly,
his body feels so different from others, and the things we can work
on that will make it easier for him. At least maybe he'll never feel
like he's a martian.
very hard time with noise, and both my kids are non-stop talkers. I
often have to put my hands up in a "T" for "Timeout" gesture and
tell them I can no longer understand anything they're saying,
because my noise overload sensors have gone off. Does anyone
remember that song in the musical Godspell, where two guys are
singing two different songs at the same time?? That's what it's like
around here, talk central :-)
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
> I think the "special needs" vs. "normal" paradigm is false. It'sall a
> continuum, and the fit between the child and his environment seemsto
> make the most difference, IME.While I totally agree that there is a continuum, I do think it's
more convenient (for the sake of discussions here, not for the sake
of the way I think of or talk to my kid at home) to have some sort
of way of referring to kids who are on the extreme end of the
spectrum (and I don't mean "spectrum" to refer to autism as it
currently does these days, but just the spectrum of human behavior).
Insisting on wearing shoes all day is somewhere on the continuum.
Not being able to walk across any surface without severe discomfort
is on the extreme end. Being sensitive to light is one thing. Not
being able to go out of a darkened house is on the extreme end.
Parenting the extreme can be exhausting and difficult, and I do
think it helps to be able to talk about it and listen to others who
have found ways to parent these extreme kids and still respect them.
Especially because most of the literature, support groups, etc. out
there is not child-respecting, concentrates more on the labels than
on the individual kids, and is usually mostly concerned with
navigating the school system.
Personally, for me it really helped to hear about the "label" (which
in our case was SID) because it helped me to understand the ways in
which the intense reactions to stimulus in kids who are on the
extreme end of the sensory integration continuum come through in
their behavior. It helped me to understand the things I could change
in our environment that made a big difference. Otherwise, I might
not have know that a child who hated any kind of touch would
actually crave deep touch - voila, I tried it and it worked for my
kid. I do think that the sharing of ways in which people have
parented, and most especially shared an unschooling life with, their
extreme kids can be really helpful to others who are on the early
part of that journey.
I also think that in a way, the "label" can help a child understand
themselves. I too have some extreme sensory issues, and I have a
very clear memory of believing as a child that I was an alien from
another planet who had come to earth and inhabited a human body, and
was adopted by my parents. I had no other way to explain why I felt
and saw and heard things so differently from other humans. I'm glad
that I can explain to my child a little more plainly why, exactly,
his body feels so different from others, and the things we can work
on that will make it easier for him. At least maybe he'll never feel
like he's a martian.
>OTOH, I get easily overwhelmed by sound, and kids who talk theircan deal
> way through things as they figure them out really wear me out. I
> with it when it's a friend over for the afternoon, but if my kidwas like
> that it would be a problem for us.LOL, that's definitely one I deal with on a daily basis. I have a
very hard time with noise, and both my kids are non-stop talkers. I
often have to put my hands up in a "T" for "Timeout" gesture and
tell them I can no longer understand anything they're saying,
because my noise overload sensors have gone off. Does anyone
remember that song in the musical Godspell, where two guys are
singing two different songs at the same time?? That's what it's like
around here, talk central :-)
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
the_clevengers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], Peggy <durrell@a...>
wrote:
outburst on the list, then she was surely teaching those kids to
have tantrums at home.
I'm just saying that a parent who deals with the intensity of this
kind of child on a daily basis might be a little more inclined to be
defensive, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the way she
acts with her own children at home.
parent find ways to do things that improve life for the kid. Like
many of the responses that discussed ways the environment could be
changed, the addition of a trampoline or punching bag, that sort of
thing.
for my very different child, I found a whole body of literature that
discussed how things I could change in our environment would really
help him out. And many of those things were not things I would've
thought of intuitively myself! I might not have set up sensory
tables and obstacle courses and tried "the kid sandwich" if I hadn't
found the label, and thus the resources to help my kid. And this was
a kid whose "specialness" was making his own life very difficult.
All I wanted to do was to find ways to make it better and easier for
him.
I agree. I don't think I was suggesting we focus on the mother's
needs and not the child's. But I do think that some of the posters
went overboard in the way they approached the situation.
necessitate being sarcastic about the way they parent based on one
post where they were upset. There are lots of people on this list
who post excellent advice without descending to that, and many of
those people responded to the original poster in this thread. Now,
sure, she did go overboard with the sarcasm in response to Sandra's
post. But everyone gets their hackles up every now and then, and
someone who is dealing daily with the situation she described
probably has very little patience to go around if she's
concentrating on giving that much of it to her kids. So I just was
saying let's be a little kind in our responses. Especially those of
us who don't have kids are anywhere near that challenging. It's hard
to know how extreme the daily life of someone is who is living that
reality. We don't need to coddle someone, but we also don't need to
add to their discomfort.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
wrote:
> But no one suggested that.Hmm, the way I read some posts was that if she had a defensive
outburst on the list, then she was surely teaching those kids to
have tantrums at home.
I'm just saying that a parent who deals with the intensity of this
kind of child on a daily basis might be a little more inclined to be
defensive, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the way she
acts with her own children at home.
> While you make a good case, in general, for being sensitive to ait from
> parent's pain, is this really what is the best focus? Looking at
> the parent's point of view, sure. But from the child's?Of course, I do think we should be focusing on how to help this
parent find ways to do things that improve life for the kid. Like
many of the responses that discussed ways the environment could be
changed, the addition of a trampoline or punching bag, that sort of
thing.
> I don't think abetter
> label or a focus on what is "wrong" would have helped me to be a
> parent, or more kind, or more generous and understanding of thevery
> different way my youngest responds to the world.Now see, I feel very differently. I found that in finding a label
for my very different child, I found a whole body of literature that
discussed how things I could change in our environment would really
help him out. And many of those things were not things I would've
thought of intuitively myself! I might not have set up sensory
tables and obstacle courses and tried "the kid sandwich" if I hadn't
found the label, and thus the resources to help my kid. And this was
a kid whose "specialness" was making his own life very difficult.
All I wanted to do was to find ways to make it better and easier for
him.
> If I would have focuseddeveloping
> on my needs, rather than hers, I know in my heart that her
> trust in me and the world would have suffered and in the long runthat
> trust would have to be reestablished before she would have beenable get
> beyond the very behaviors that were causing the problems. Gettingto the
> heart of problems helps in solutions, while finding ways to avoidinvolved.
> looking at them doesn't, and prolongs the suffering of everyone
I agree. I don't think I was suggesting we focus on the mother's
needs and not the child's. But I do think that some of the posters
went overboard in the way they approached the situation.
> Should we support them in keeping that fantasy alive orI think there's a way of helping them gain insights that doesn't
> should we help them gain insights that could change their current
> unhappy reality?
necessitate being sarcastic about the way they parent based on one
post where they were upset. There are lots of people on this list
who post excellent advice without descending to that, and many of
those people responded to the original poster in this thread. Now,
sure, she did go overboard with the sarcasm in response to Sandra's
post. But everyone gets their hackles up every now and then, and
someone who is dealing daily with the situation she described
probably has very little patience to go around if she's
concentrating on giving that much of it to her kids. So I just was
saying let's be a little kind in our responses. Especially those of
us who don't have kids are anywhere near that challenging. It's hard
to know how extreme the daily life of someone is who is living that
reality. We don't need to coddle someone, but we also don't need to
add to their discomfort.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Shyrley
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
Luckily they ain't at school any more so now they are just people, one of whom has a unique way of looking at the world.
Shyrley
> Your day-in-the-life description was great.You just said what I was thinking. One of my kids was labelled autistic at school. One of the others would be labelled ADHD.
>
> One thing maybe people also need to remember is that many of us DO have
> kids like that, but we don't call them "special needs" kids. They're
> just our kids. If kids don't go to school - they don't get labeled and
> we just move on with our lives and do what it takes to raise our own
> particular kids. There are definitely kids who are EASIER to raise than
> other kids - no doubt about that!!!!!!!!! But - I'd just caution about
> assuming that those of us who don't claim to have "special needs" kids
> don't know about raising our own difficult kids.
>
Luckily they ain't at school any more so now they are just people, one of whom has a unique way of looking at the world.
Shyrley