Have a Nice Day!

It's all such a puzzle isn't it? There's obviously something compelling that
keeps drawing them back to this situation. Maybe some talking in their
downtime, maybe right before bed, will give you some insight into what they
getting from all this.

<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would say, having had a child who *also* used to throw INTENSE tantrums (I have holes in my walls to prove it), that this is the crux of the whole thing.

Find out what it is that draws them back again and again.

One of the things that I also had to do with my negatively energized child was to teach him different things he could do when he was frustrated.

Many times, he would grow frustrated and it didn't occur to him that he *could* ask for help. He put it upon himself to figure everything out on his own. Or he was so involved in what he was trying to do that he wasn't thinking about the fact that maybe I could help him with it.

Other times I would take the game and ask him to please go in his room and cool off for awhile, because maybe it would come to him while he was taking a break. And still other times, I would have him jump on a minitramp just to get the energy out of his system.

I think I would find out what compells them back to it again and again, help them name their feelings, and ALSO show them concrete ways to deal with their frustrations because while video games are one source of frustration, they won't be the *only* one.

Kristen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
> I think I would find out what compells them back to it again and again,
help them name their feelings, and ALSO show them concrete ways to deal with
their frustrations because while video games are one source of frustration,
they won't be the *only* one.

This is something *so* important. My daughter is the one who learned about
helping kids name their feelings. I wish I had learned it when she and her
brothers were little.
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/12/03 4:28:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:

> He probably also has some really wonderful, endearing, and creative
> qualities too though, right?
>
> Oh yes, both of them do. They definitely have strengths and their own ways
> of learning and certain things they excel in. Ethan is mechanical minded.
> He loves machines, engines, speed, movement. JP is very athletic and
> coordinated. They both have wonderful active imaginations. I KNOW they
> are worthy, valuable, precious people.

But it's not okay to
  to hurt each other or break things that belong to the family. Maybe give
him a punching bag or trampoline to work out some of those urges. Don't try
to stop them, channel them.

The channeling is difficult. So much of the "blow ups" are so impulsive and
fast happening. Before I can intervene, the remote control has been broken
into a thousand pieces. Gosh, if I listed the damage these boys have done..
its unreal.. Holes in walls, we only have 1 out of 6 dining room chairs
left.. numerous electronics (including a video camera), countless toys, games
CDs, damage to our vehicles, furniture. its endless. .. And this ties into
your next statement...

Personally, I wouldn't keep replacing them forever. He has no incentive then
to try a different method of displaying his anger. And anyway, it's just too
expensive. I'm honest with my kids about how much we make and have and how
much we can spend on things. If the money's not there, it's not there.

They just dont understand how these damages affect our family. If its one of
thier own toys or belongings .. well, then, they no longer have that toy.
Even though sometimes I will replace it.. But for family stuff ( like the
game controllers) we are just out of luck and out of pocket to replace the
stuff.. Our house looks like a war zone.. My husband has just given up on
keeping up repairs.. Most all of our doors are broken.( beaten or kicked in).
windows broken, holes in walls, peeled wall paper. Dh feels like its a losing
battle to keep things repaired.. and, really, it is.. We bought new entrance
doors over a year ago.. Dh has never installed them.. Every time one of the
boys knocks another chunk out of the doors, Dh says,.. see, Im glad that
wasnt the new door. This destructive behavior usually happens so fast, we
cant stop it. To "channel" thier aggression elsewhere would require CONSTANT
supervision., which seems unreasonable for kids thier age..( and really,
impossible)

Well, tantrums happen. Some people are hard wired to naturally calm
themselves and deal with frustration. Others have to work at it. Venting, to
me, is okay. Hitting, breaking things or hurting each other is not.

I totally agree.. Everyone is different in the way they handle thier stress
and frustration. I see it so clearly among my own family. My older son is
more "verbal" my daughter more "sulky" and pouty. The younger boys.. WHOOO
WEEE, its all physical.


I understand. Do they generally have trouble with transitions? Casey (my 9yo
dd) has a LOT of trouble transitioning to anything. Even things she loves

YESS.. I written here before out the trouble they have with transistions.
Other parents have spoken of similar situations. I try all of that
"beforehand" stuff.. Sometimes it works, sometimes it just stresses them out
because they start worrying that much sooner that they will have to make a
transition. Here's a prime example. We had been planning on going to a hs
valentine party on Monday. We made candy over the weekend.. made our
valentines.. talked about the party.. Everyone was excited.. But on Monday,
Ethan wouldnt get out of bed. He normally gets up before anyone else to
"claim" the game system. But he wasnt up by noon.. The party was at 2.. I
went in around 12:30 to check on him.. He wasnt even asleep. I said.."Ethan,
the party is today .. you wanna get up and get ready?" He immedieatly
started to protest and say he didnt want to go. I assured him it would be
fun.. lots of games, snacks, playing.. He insisted he didnt want to go. I
thought he might change his mind as Anna, JP and I got ready, but he didnt.
The party was only a few minutes away from our house.. So, Iet him stay home.
I really didnt want to.. I knew that if I "made" him go, he would probably
have a good time. AT LEAST he wouldnt be home alone. But, I didnt make him.
Of course, when JP and Anna got home, he wanted to eat thier candy.

I think folks who do not deal with this type of behavior do not understand
that these kids REALLY will not take the initiative on "getting interested"
in things.. Yes, Ethan does have some interests ( very limited) and I do
everything in my means to make these things available, encourage and support
him in them. But, I also know that if I dont encourage and sometimes even
insist that he go somewhere or try something new ,he would never know that he
DOES like it. Is that wrong????

. He is the same way about foods. I dont "make" him try new foods.. but I
have paid him to taste something.. Lots of times he finds out that he likes
it!!!!.. I wish I didnt have to pay him to try something new. Now, he went
with his Grandpa ( my Dad) to a BBQ one time.. He refused to eat.. Dad gave
him a plate and told him that if he was hungry , he better eat some. ( yeah,
old school, no BS Grandpa) Well, Ethan tried it, and he LOVED it!!.. If
that had been me, I probably would have bought him some chicken tenders on
the way home and Ethan would have never known he liked BBQ.
Oh.. I just reread that and I need to clarify. I know, that if Ethan had
tasted the BBQ and hated it.. His Grandpa would have never made him eat it.
Yeah, Ethan would have been hungry for a while., but he would have had to
wait til they got home and then Grandpa( or most likely Grandma) would have
made him something he liked.. But the point is, Ethan didnt automatically
assume that he would be 'catered" to for his limited preferences in food,
like he does at home with me and his dad.

Its easy for folks to say "kids will do this or they will do that.. given
enough time" But I think those are "typical" kids ..( I dont like labels
either.. but I dont know any other way to describe it)

Mary, you have been SOOOO helpful, sensitive and understanding.. I am so glad
you are here. I know you post alot of the unschooling.com message boards..
But the email format is so much easier for me to follow.. Thanks so much for
contributing here. I really appreciate it.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/12/03 4:59:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
litlrooh@... writes:

> Other times I would take the game and ask him to please go in his room and
> cool off for awhile, because maybe it would come to him while he was taking
> a break. And still other times, I would have him jump on a minitramp just
> to get the energy out of his system.
>

Thats what I ended up doing today.. After I took the N64 away.. Then he had
calmed down.. we went and ran some errands and he asked ( this was JP, 7 yo)
if he could play it when we got back home. I told him, he could. I got it
back out and hes been playing happily all evening. Sometimes I think they
do just need a break to regroup.

And the compelling attraction.. YES, there has to be some. .. And it must be
pretty strong.. This may be a WAYY off way to compare it.. BUT, it does have
its similarities.. Take alcohol or drugs.. or heck, maybe an extreme
sport.. The feeling, the "high" the adrenaline during the activity . . its
compelling enough to go back to again and again despite hangovers, fines and
jail time.., injuries, pain, and sometimes loss of loved ones.. Gosh, all
kinds of negative consequences. Perhaps the "rush" the pleasure, the high
of playing the games is compelling enough to continue even though they cause
immense frustration and stress ( and damage to property)

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

snip>>>I assured him it would be fun.. lots of games, snacks, playing.. He
insisted he didn't want to go.>>>>>

My kids will say yes to a lot of activities, but through trial and error, we
have found it best to miss out on many of them. We didn't go to the park
day yesterday, because we had to be out of the house Monday and today. We
all agreed that it would be better to have a day at home, even though we
knew that we would have enjoyed the park while we were there. Three days of
activities in a row is just too many for us. When we are home all day, I
can alternate my chores and projects with spending time with them. When we
are on the go, either the house ends up a disaster or I'm just not able to
spend time with them because I need to do the household stuff. Neither of
those makes me happy if it happens too often! Also, my kids are more likely
to get involved in a project of their own when we have long stretches of
time at home. Our homeschool group had a Valentine's Party this week, but I
didn't even mention it to them. (I don't usually not tell them options, but
I didn't want to go, and they went to a birthday party Monday, so I felt
that was enough parties for one week!)

When I look at our schedule compared to the average school kid, it looks
pretty calm. But it doesn't take very many extra activities to throw
everything off. When people are all stressed and can't get ready to go to
something that sounds like fun, I find myself wondering if they really don't
want to go. The other thing that happens when we schedule too many
activities is that we are less likely to make time for one on one visits
with our friends. I aim for at least two weekdays each week where we do not
get in the car. This may change as the girls get older, but it is working
well for us now.

Mary Ellen

nellebelle

snip>>>>>>>>>I think folks who do not deal with this type of behavior do not
understand
that these kids REALLY will not take the initiative on "getting interested"
in things.. Yes, Ethan does have some interests ( very limited)>>>>>>>>>

Maybe you are right, but I wonder if part of the problem for you is what he
is interested in. What if his only interest was working complicated
mathematical problems? Wouldn't that be something to brag about! Or what
if he did nothing but program computers? Somehow it is harder to tell the
world, (and friends, family, and neighbors) that "all my kid does is play
nintendo"! There is pressure from those outside the homeschooling world to
"prove" that homeschooling produces kids who excel in all things academic,
not in all things considered by most to be recreational.

snip>>>>>>>>. He is the same way about foods. I dont "make" him try new
foods.. but I
have paid him to taste something.. Lots of times he finds out that he likes
it!!!!.. >>>>>>>>

It is normal for children to be reluctant about tasting new foods. My
neighbor, in his 30's, is a VERY picky eater. He is a high paid worker with
a major food production company. He probably has more sensitive taste buds.

I like many foods that I hated as a child and hate many foods that I loved
as a child. Tastes do change. My children ate most everything as toddlers,
then rejected many foods they had previously liked, and are now adding more
foods to their "acceptable" list. My husband refused steak until he was 16,
finally TASTED it, and decided he loved it. His parents almost wished he'd
never tasted it, because he was cheaper to feed on hamburger, than steak!
And they didn't have to pay him to try it.

Mary Ellen

Fetteroll

on 2/12/03 6:32 PM, grlynbl@... at grlynbl@... wrote:

> This destructive behavior usually happens so fast, we
> cant stop it. To "channel" thier aggression elsewhere would require CONSTANT
> supervision., which seems unreasonable for kids thier age..( and really,
> impossible)

How does talking to them about it go? Does it end up having the general feel
of you telling them what they need to do to do better and them agreeing?

Or are you there as their partner? To help them learn to be more aware of
their emotions and the build up of their emotions before they get to the
explosion stage. You think it's fast. They probably even think it's fast.
But there is a build up that they could be helped to be more aware of.

I think you need to forget their ages and what is reasonable or not
reasonable. They are where they are and you need to be there to help them
get where they'd like to be.

Ask them if they want help in not destroying game controllers. How they
respond is going to depend on your motivations. If you are focused on
stopping them from destroying things, they're going to sense that your help
is about controlling them. If you are focused on helping them gain skills
that they'd like to have, they'll be more open.

You could suggest that they not play unless you can be there with them.
(That won't work if they are sensing you want to control them. They might
think it's a good idea if they sense that you want to help them.)

There's other suggestions you could make but it will all dependon whether
they see you as their partner or the protector of the stuff in the house. It
might also take some extra work to convince them that you really do want to
help them if your interactions with them have always been about changing
their behavior to behavior you think is acceptable.

> But, I also know that if I dont encourage and sometimes even
> insist that he go somewhere or try something new ,he would never know that he
> DOES like it. Is that wrong????

Well I think that a good outcome to something "bad" doesn't justify doing
something bad. Lots of kids have terrible times in school and end up
"successful" and thankful that they were pushed. But it doesn't justify
pushing in my opinion.

What does he want you to do? Ask him now while he isn't faced with going
somewhere he doesn't want to go. Does he want you to make him go? And ask
him again after you've tried out his answer a couple of times. Ask him to
think about how he feels now that you pushing or not pushing. What does he
want you to do? It would help him be more aware of his feelings.

> I dont "make" him try new foods.. but I
> have paid him to taste something.. Lots of times he finds out that he likes
> it!!!!

What about the times he doesn't like it? Again, ask him what he'd like you
to do. Point out the times he has really liked something after being made to
eat it and the times he hasn't.

And if he doesn't want to be urged, what difference does it make? If you had
very limited tastes and people kept urging you to eat stuff you didn't want
to, wouldn't it be annoying?

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/12/03 9:15:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nellebelle@... writes:

> Maybe you are right, but I wonder if part of the problem for you is what he
> is interested in. What if his only interest was working complicated
> mathematical problems? Wouldn't that be something to brag about! Or what
> if he did nothing but program computers? Somehow it is harder to tell the
> world, (and friends, family, and neighbors) that "all my kid does is play
> nintendo"! There is pressure from those outside the homeschooling world to
> "prove" that homeschooling produces kids who excel in all things academic,
> not in all things considered by most to be recreational.
>

Nah, I dont have any predisposed ideas about what is "good" or valuable to be
interested in. To me, ANYTHING he wants to do is valuable. And no less
valuable than 'academic" stuff. Yes, the world in general, and even our
close family and friends puts much more value on "book learning" But as for
me, it makes no difference if hes does math problems or finishes a level on
Mario.. or pumps up the tires on his bike. What matters most to me is a
smile on his face, and a sense of worth and accomplishment in his heart.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

>>>>>>>snip-----> Nah, I dont have any predisposed ideas about what is
"good" or valuable to be interested in. To me, ANYTHING he wants to do is
valuable.>>>>>>>>

Sorry, I misunderstood. It sounded like you needed him to be interested in
things other than what he IS interested in.
snip>>>>>>>>>I think folks who do not deal with this type of behavior do not
understand that these kids REALLY will not take the initiative on "getting
interested" in things.. Yes, Ethan does have some interests ( very
limited)>>>>>>>>>

Well, then, can it be OK for him to only have a few interests for now?

Mary Ellen

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 12:45:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nellebelle@... writes:

> Well, then, can it be OK for him to only have a few interests for now?

Yes.. the concern is not over how many or what interests he has. The concern
comes over the fact that even the stuff he likes and enjoys causes him
frustration and emotional upset. I talked about the video game stuff.. But
really, it could be anything.. He loves biking, but often he will come in
angry, crying, upset, because his bike is not cooperating the way he wants it
to. .Maybe some piece of accessory is not working just right. maybe the wind
is blowing too hard.. maybe no one wants to ride with him . He loves jumping
on the trampoline,, but he could come in with similar complaints. It seems
he is only satisfied and happy with even his limited interests for a very
short time. Then he gets upset and angry or sad.. he feels like "nothing
works for him" , like everyone and everything is against him. And, the
other concern is that how can he know what might interest him, what he may
really excel at or enjoy if he won't try new things.. Im not talking about
overload here.. Im talking ANY new thing.. heck, maybe trying something new
once a month, or even every 2 months But as of now, he resists anything
"new"

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AnneO <[email protected]>

Teresa ~ how do you handle it when he feels like everything is
against him?

What does your son do that makes him SHINE?

A difficult and challenging aspect of children like this is the fact
that the reality of their body's capabilities does not match the
vision they hold in their mind.

The KEY is to direct them to those things that they CAN do and do
well. Those things that make them SHINE.

In Carol Stock Kranowitz's book *The Out of Sync Child,* she says
something like, "Even the best-loved child in the world will feel
unloved." I know what she's talking about. It was my life. It's my
son's life.

Yes, they feel like many things are against them. How you handle
that is key.

It is imperative that you don't just write it off. It is important
to acknowledge how he feels. How frustrated he is. And, yes, how
difficult life can be for him at times.

But then it's important to move on. Don't dwell on the negative. Go
on to something where he can SHINE.

WHen my son is totally frustrated, I'll hug him and say, "It's a
difficult job to be Jake, isn't it?" He'll collapse in my arms and
cry. And then I'll let him know that I think he's wonderful, and I
think he's doing a great job at being Jake.

And then we move on to those things that make him Jake. We'll talk
about his comic strips that he draws, or his monsters. We'll talk
about his video games, or the book he's reading. Or we'll curl up
together and read a book or watch a movie.

There is a lot of stress and anxiety in these children's lives. Do
what you can to move away from that and move towards the Joy and the
Love and the Strengths.

There is no need to push anything new. Let him stay where he is
comfortable. Go to his world, in his place of comfort. Meet him
there and get to know him there. Let him enlighten your world and
let him know that his unique perspective on life enlightens your own
life.

Time helps, also. My son would try to draw a couple of years ago,
and get so frustrated and cry. A friend of mine told me the same
story about her 5 year old son. He would draw something and take it
to her and angrily say, "Would you just throw this away because I
HATE IT!!"

It's what I said: their vision does not match their physical
capabilities.

My son stopped drawing and began working with clay (Sculpey). He was
AMAZING with it. He made Pokemon after Pokemon with it, and they
were WONDERFUL.

This helped his confidence, and his motor skills. After awhile, he
tried drawing again, and was better at it. So he kept drawing. Now
he's a wonderful artist and creates his own comic strips.

I think most parents approach a frustrated child in the wrong
manner. They always try to fix what went wrong. That's not what the
child wants ~ especially these perfectionist children. They want to
fix it themselves. And right now, they just want to be frustrated
with it.

They are learning. They are learning about the world. They are
learning about themselves. They are learning how to handle having
video games in their home. They are learning how to handle
frustration and challenge.

How YOU handle it and approach it will be their *teacher.*

~ Anne

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 11:25:32 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<< Then he gets upset and angry or sad.. he feels like "nothing
works for him" , like everyone and everything is against him. >>

Maybe it's genetic?
Maybe if you or his dad are that way he has it either genetically or by
modelling.

<<Im talking ANY new thing.. heck, maybe trying something new
once a month, or even every 2 months But as of now, he resists anything
"new">>

That's happened even on this list, I think.

Some people see the glass as half empty, some see it as half full, and some
are quick to say that the glass sucks and that other people hate them because
they mentioned "half empty" to them.

The best way I have ever seen or practiced changing children's behavior is
for me to be the way I want them to be.

Sandra

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
> I think you need to forget their ages and what is reasonable or not
> reasonable. They are where they are and you need to be there to
help them
> get where they'd like to be.

Joyce, I think this is the best advice around on parenting special-
needs kids in general. And it's also the hardest, because it is so
difficult to see your own kids struggle with things that come so
easily to others. I was relatively lucky because my special needs kid
was my first, and I threw away books like "What to Expect" right off
the bat, so I really didn't know (except for that gut feeling)
how "behind" he was, or how much extra work I was putting in
parenting him, over and above what you do with a "normal" kid. I only
learned that after I had my second kid and realized how easy it all
is when you don't have to deal with all that extra stuff!

There are still things that my kid struggles with that other kids
don't, and I've come to find that it's okay. But it doesn't make it
easier when other people don't understand and give you "The look"
because your kid is howling in protest that the floor is too cold and
to him it feels like his feet are getting frozen on ice cubes, so
he's really upset, but to other people, he just looks like an overly
coddled brat having a tantrum (other people's thoughts, not mine). It
just gets so wearing after awhile.

This thread is very timely. My kid's "disability" doesn't pop up too
often anymore, but when it does it can be a real whammy. These are
the times I most feel like an unschooling failure - like anything I
do is wrong. Yesterday it was The Haircut. He's been growing his hair
long for a year (fine by me), but he can't brush it himself (motor
skills issues) and doesn't want me to brush it (extreme tactile
sensitivity triggers a fight or flight response every single day when
we try), but he also doesn't want it to become all matted or to be in
dreadlocks, and doesn't want to wash it or get it wet to make combing
it any easier (again, tactile sensitivity). So he had asked me to
call our haircutting person and have her come over to our house (she
is the only person who has ever been able to cut his hair, she is an
angel with a ton of patience). But when our haircutter gets here, he
starts freaking out, very loudly vocally and physically. He is
totally scared by the idea of the haircut, but also unable to deal
with any of the other possibilities. So what the heck do I do? What
ends up happening is I hold him in my lap, he continues to freak out,
and our hairdresser does the best job she can in the shortest amount
of time. I'm sure she has no idea what the heck is wrong with my kid,
I attempt to explain some of it after he's disappeared upstairs. But
if he hadn't gotten his hair cut, we would've gone through the same
freak out every day over hair brushing. Yet he doesn't want no hair
brushing or no hair cut either, he *chose* the haircut without me
even suggesting it. Now he's mourning the loss of his long hair,
which he really wanted but was unable to deal with. It all feels very
Lose-Lose-situation to me, and I've been pretty bummed over it. If I
didn't have this child, I would think that you could go along
respecting a child and honoring their choices and it would all come
out perfectly as it does with my daughter. But some kids teach you
otherwise. Some times there is no easy way. We've been through this
same scenario in many different variations over the years.

If anyone has read this far, thanks for letting me ramble. This is a
puzzle that I still continue to work on. It's gotten better with time
and the many things we've done to help work through this, but we're
still not there. Funny thing is, if I tell a person that my son has
SID, they don't believe me. "He looks so normal". Yeah, until haircut
time.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 6:47:22 PM, diamondair@... writes:

<< If anyone has read this far, thanks for letting me ramble. This is a
puzzle that I still continue to work on. >>

I used to cut Kirby's hair when he was asleep, when he was little. I'd cut
one side, and then wait for him to turn over and cut the other side.

For years he had it long, and luckily he has the genetic advantage of
non-tangly hair. Had his dad or I had tangly hair, the situation would have
been very much worse. My sister's hair does tangle. It was just luck.

By the time he was ten or so, he could have haircuts without nitrous oxide.
(That would have been nice, nitrous oxide shampoo times for his long hair...)

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 6:47:22 PM, diamondair@... writes:

<< > I think you need to forget their ages and what is reasonable or not
> reasonable. They are where they are and you need to be there to
help them
> get where they'd like to be.

<<Joyce, I think this is the best advice around on parenting special-
needs kids in general. >>

I think that's good advice for parenting any child.


Another article is now available (and will have a nicer appearance and maybe
a photo before too long, perhaps):

http://sandradodd.com/special/mary

This is Mary Gold's article "Special Needs or Just Special?" from the Home
Education Magazine before last.

Sandra

zenmomma *

Wow, Robin. I can relate so well to everything you've written here. I could
share story for story I'm sure. It *is* a struggle isn't it?

>>This thread is very timely. My kid's "disability" doesn't pop up too often
>>anymore, but when it does it can be a real whammy. >>

This has been happening at our house right now too. It sneaks up on you. In
the beginning, I would think OMG this is how my kid is going to be forever!
Then it would pass. Sometimes it would pass like a like a gentle breeze,
sometimes like a kidney stone. But it would pass. And the time between
really intense sensory/behavioral issues are farther and farther in between
as my kids mature.

>>These are the times I most feel like an unschooling failure - like
>>anything I do is wrong.>>

No, No, No!!

I made myself a sign for the bathroom mirror that says "It's NOT the
unschooling, it's___________." I fill in the blank with whatever is really
going on to stress me out. So it's the hormones, my period, the SID, it's
whatever. The unschooling doesn't succeed or fail based on one incident or a
string of incidents. It's a lifetime process of getting to know and
understand each other. It's a lifetime of exploration. It's a lifetime.

>>It all feels very Lose-Lose-situation to me, and I've been pretty bummed
over it.>>

No, No, No!!!

You got through it. His hair is short. Disaster averted for awhile. Maybe
next time it gets that long he'll be better able to deal with it. I've been
through this with Casey several times over. It's NOT a lose-lose situation.
It's a learn-learn situation.

>>Some times there is no easy way.>>

And isn't your son lucky that *you* are his mother and not some controlling
mainstream "my way or the highway" type. :o)

Life is good.
~Mary


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Tia Leschke

>
> Another article is now available (and will have a nicer appearance and
maybe
> a photo before too long, perhaps):
>
> http://sandradodd.com/special/mary
>
> This is Mary Gold's article "Special Needs or Just Special?" from the Home
> Education Magazine before last.

So *that's* who Mary Gold is. I loved that article *before* I knew she was
our "Life is Good" Mary.
Tia

Carla Tucker

This brings up an issue we've been having with our almost 4yod. She has
very curly/tangly babyfine hair and it's now been cut to shoulder length
(when it's dry, longer when it's wet), because we thought it would be easier
to deal with if the ends were cut off (she had never had a haircut). But
she still fights like mad to keep from getting her hair combed, so I almost
never comb it. She ends up looking very messy and.well.uncombed. Once or
twice a week I force her to have it washed and combed. In the spirit of an
unschooling household where kids have a choice, am I doing something wrong
and damaging to our mutual trust? It feels uncomfortable to force her, but
I don't know what else to do.



Opinions?



Carla (a lurker for about three weeks now)



-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
In a message dated 2/13/03 6:47:22 PM, diamondair@... writes:

<< If anyone has read this far, thanks for letting me ramble. This is a
puzzle that I still continue to work on. >>

I used to cut Kirby's hair when he was asleep, when he was little. I'd cut
one side, and then wait for him to turn over and cut the other side.

For years he had it long, and luckily he has the genetic advantage of
non-tangly hair. Had his dad or I had tangly hair, the situation would have

been very much worse. My sister's hair does tangle. It was just luck.

By the time he was ten or so, he could have haircuts without nitrous oxide.

(That would have been nice, nitrous oxide shampoo times for his long
hair...)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>> It feels uncomfortable to force her, but I don't know what else to do.>>

If you are feeling uncomfortable with forcing her to comb it, then that's
the voice you should listen to.

When Casey was little, I always just kept her hair in a cute, short style
that kept the tangles to a minimum. That plus a lot of conditioner did the
trick.

Life is good.
~Mary


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zenmomma *

>>So *that's* who Mary Gold is. I loved that article *before* I knew she
>>was our "Life is Good" Mary.>>

Yep. Zenmomma, Mary Gold, Life is good-Mary, crazy woman muttering to
herself in the corner, it's all me. ;-)

Joyce Fetterol once admitted that she had spent years chatting online with
me and a day IRL together in NY without ever knowing my last name. Aren't
cyber friendships interesting.

Life is good..mutter...mutter...
~Mary

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Fetteroll

on 2/13/03 11:02 PM, Carla Tucker at carlasue@... wrote:

> This brings up an issue we've been having with our almost 4yod. She has
> very curly/tangly babyfine hair and it's now been cut to shoulder length

Does she want long hair? Could you cut it really short? You might suggest
cutting just the front so she can see how much easier it is to comb.

Joyce

Schuyler Waynforth <[email protected]>

We've been having this problem for quite a while. My daughter,
Linnaea is almost 3. Yesterday when I went in for the kill...well to
brush her hair, she said let me do it. And she brushed her own
hair. It wasn't perfect, but she didn't scream, she didn't freak
out, and she accepted advise about where she missed and how she
might be better able to reach it. It was really much nicer.

Schuyler

--- In [email protected], "Carla Tucker"
<carlasue@c...> wrote:
But
> she still fights like mad to keep from getting her hair combed, so
I almost
> never comb it. She ends up looking very messy and.well.uncombed.
Once or
> twice a week I force her to have it washed and combed. > I don't
know what else to do.
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/14/03 3:56:57 AM, dwaynf@... writes:

<< I went in for the kill...well to
brush her hair, she said let me do it. And she brushed her own hair. >>

For some kinds of hair, wide-teeth combs work best. Brushes will make things
worse sometimes.
There are also options with girls' hair, sometimes, of putting things up and
back with barettes and clips without really getting all the tangles out.

We've had good luck with Johnson's No More Tangles spray and related things.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/03 11:04:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
carlasue@... writes:

> . She ends up looking very messy and.well.uncombed. Once or
> twice a week I force her to have it washed and combed. In the spirit of an
> unschooling household where kids have a choice, am I doing something wrong
> and damaging to our mutual trust? It feels uncomfortable to force her, but
> I don't know what else to do.
>
>
>
>

Both my boys have long hair and all I have to do is remind them of what it
was like last week when they didn't want their hair combed then after a few
days decided they wanted it brushed out. What a mess and took a lot of time
and gentle brushing to get all those knots out. When I remind them of that
and how much easier it is if it is bushed on a daily basis they are more than
willing to sit still for a minute.

Also we figured out that if I braid the hair at night it helps with knots as
well. And using a hard brush, you know the ones with the stiff plastic
bristles when the hair is wet and has lots of conditioner on it, before you
rinse the conditioner out it is easier to get through the tougher tangles.

I do give them a choice and they even brush their own hair occasionally, just
can't reach the back very well.

Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I used to cut Kirby's hair when he was asleep, when he was little.
I'd cut
> one side, and then wait for him to turn over and cut the other side.

Yeah, I used to do that to. That worked really well as a solution for
quite awhile. Unfortunately, now if I try it, he wakes up in a total
panic, and we had one really bad incident when he did that and I
accidentally knicked his ear with the scissors since he flailed out,
causing prolific bleeding and serious panic. He is very adamant that
I not cut his hair in his sleep, so of course I don't. And the
dilemma continues...

But I do have a funny story from when I used to do that. Of course
his haircuts looked terrible. He has extremely, and I do mean
extremely thick hair to start with, hard to cut well even by a
professional. Well, I did my best, at night, one side at a time.
Doesn't help that it's a streaky blonde and so it shows every cut
line. Well, a woman walked up to us in a store and handed me a card.
She was a hairdresser. She said "If you ever want a professional to
cut his hair, just give me a call."

I was always tempted to take him to her and just let her try. She'd
find it about as easy as barbering an angry mountain lion, I'd bet.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I used to cut Kirby's hair when he was asleep, when he was little.
I'd cut
> one side, and then wait for him to turn over and cut the other side.

Yeah, I used to do that to. That worked really well as a solution for
quite awhile. Unfortunately, now if I try it, he wakes up in a total
panic, and we had one really bad incident when he did that and I
accidentally knicked his ear with the scissors since he flailed out,
causing prolific bleeding and serious panic. He is very adamant that
I not cut his hair in his sleep, so of course I don't. And the
dilemma continues...

But I do have a funny story from when I used to do that. Of course
his haircuts looked terrible. He has extremely, and I do mean
extremely thick hair to start with, hard to cut well even by a
professional. Well, I did my best, at night, one side at a time.
Doesn't help that it's a streaky blonde and so it shows every cut
line. Well, a woman walked up to us in a store and handed me a card.
She was a hairdresser. She said "If you ever want a professional to
cut his hair, just give me a call."

I was always tempted to take him to her and just let her try. She'd
find it about as easy as barbering an angry mountain lion, I'd bet.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "zenmomma *"
<zenmomma@h...> wrote:
> This has been happening at our house right now too. It sneaks up on
you. In
> the beginning, I would think OMG this is how my kid is going to be
forever!
> Then it would pass. Sometimes it would pass like a like a gentle
breeze,
> sometimes like a kidney stone.

OMG, this is SOOOO true, and so funny. Thanks. I think I'll print
*that* out and paste it on a mirror.


> But it would pass. And the time between
> really intense sensory/behavioral issues are farther and farther in
between
> as my kids mature.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. I think sometimes, strangely enough, it
was easier to deal with when we were immersed in it every day,
because I was so used to it. Now it blindsides me and I have to
quickly gather my wits.

> No, No, No!!
>
> I made myself a sign for the bathroom mirror that says "It's NOT
the
> unschooling, it's___________." I fill in the blank with whatever is
really
> going on to stress me out. So it's the hormones, my period, the
SID, it's
> whatever. The unschooling doesn't succeed or fail based on one
incident or a
> string of incidents. It's a lifetime process of getting to know and
> understand each other. It's a lifetime of exploration. It's a
lifetime.


Thank you, thank you for these wise words.

>It's NOT a lose-lose situation.
> It's a learn-learn situation.

More words for my refridgerator :)

>
> >>Some times there is no easy way.>>
>
> And isn't your son lucky that *you* are his mother and not some
controlling
> mainstream "my way or the highway" type. :o)

I've always felt that if he were born into another family, he might
be one of those babies that ends up in a dumpster, or the toddler
that is abused horribly. I'm sure that many of those kids are just
extremely high needs or special kids born into families where the
parents have no internal resources to deal with them and so just flip
out or lash out. I'm sorry both for the kids and the parents. It's no
easy row to hoe, even having the benefits of relatively good
parenting myself and a lot of reading beforehand about attachment
parenting, etc. I think if I was any less attached to my son at the
get-go, the outcome could've been much worse. I have many wise women
of the internet to thank for that. And many current ones to thank as
well. Thanks!

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

Carla Tucker

Well, I don't think she cares about what length it is. But Daddy does (he
likes it to be longer)! :-) And the front is cut shorter than the rest. I
think she has gotten phobic about combing at all, because she starts to cry
before the comb touches her hair at all sometimes. I think cutting it really
short could work, though, given a little time for her to see that it doesn't
hurt as much. Thanks for the suggestion!



Carla



-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]

Does she want long hair? Could you cut it really short? You might suggest
cutting just the front so she can see how much easier it is to comb..



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carla Tucker

I understand about the conditioner! And I think cutting it even shorter
could make things easier. Now to convince Daddy!



Thanks,

Carla



-----Original Message-----
From: zenmomma * [mailto:zenmomma@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: special needs children...



>> It feels uncomfortable to force her, but I don't know what else to do.>>

If you are feeling uncomfortable with forcing her to comb it, then that's
the voice you should listen to.

When Casey was little, I always just kept her hair in a cute, short style
that kept the tangles to a minimum. That plus a lot of conditioner did the
trick.

Life is good.
~Mary


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carla Tucker

We've tried that, too, she just doesn't do it. She holds the comb and
swipes at the top layer and then says she's done. Her hair usually looks
about like it did before she started. Maybe I need to lower my standards,
but inside I cringe when people comment (and they do comment) about how I
didn't comb her hair. I feel like a bad Mommy!



Carla



-----Original Message-----
From: Schuyler Waynforth <dwaynf@...> [mailto:dwaynf@...]

she brushed her own
hair. It wasn't perfect, but she didn't scream, she didn't freak
out, and she accepted advise about where she missed and how she
might be better able to reach it. It was really much nicer.

Schuyler




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]