Julie Stauffer

I truly think that most kids want to help out....they just might want to do
it in ways other than how you are asking them to. How many times do kids
come to ask us if they can help us do something and have been told "no, a
grown up really needs to handle this" or "no, I'm in a giant hurry. How
about helping tomorrow?"

I know I've done it in the past. I have 5 kids and the clutter gets
immense. I have even posted on here about my kids "not helping and treating
us poorly"....usually because I've placed some pressure on myself and am,
subconsciously, wanting the kids to pick up extra slack. So I decided to be
scientific. I made a chart of each kids name down 2 columns. One column
for when the kids asked if they could help and another for when they did
something helpful whether asked to or not.

Example: My 4yo loves to help move laundry from machine to machine. It
takes quite a bit longer than if I did it myself but he is offering his help
to me so he got "credit" on the chart. Zach loves to carry in groceries,
not to be helpful, but to get first viewing of whatever treasures I might
bring home. Its not altruistic, but it is helpful, so again, he got credit.
I was in the midst of making soap that wasn't gelling so I asked Adriane if
she would get lunch for the little kids. She did and got "credit".

I did this for about 3 days and was blown away at how helpful the kids are,
often without being asked. What I had been getting bummed about wasn't the
kids not helping (like I thought) but about the kids not being under my
control (yuck).

I still do this occassionally when I get into "Why do I have to clean all
this mess?" mode. It is always a good reality check.

Julie

Kathy Evans

Wow, I just found out about this list and it has been
fascinating reading. It is really helping me figure
out how to approach unschooling more clearly. My
question is about the kids helping with household
maintenance. I do like a pretty tidy house and realize
that it is not necessarily everyone elses priority.
But forget *tidy*. How have you all handled the
basics? Trash, dishes etc. Have you had a meeting and
tried to see how the things can get done so that
everyone agrees? I like the idea of working things
out very democratically, where everyone is involved in
the running of the house or whatever decisions have to
be made. It is all worked out as a team. Any
suggestions?
Thanks.
Kathy Evans

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Robyn Coburn

Kathy,

You have missed by mere days a wonderful and lengthy thread on this very
topic! Check the archives if you like. There is some terrific stuff
there that is extremely current.



Robyn Coburn







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ed hodgins

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 1:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] helping with household stuff


> Kathy,
>
> You have missed by mere days a wonderful and lengthy thread on this very
> topic! Check the archives if you like. There is some terrific stuff
> there that is extremely current.
>
>
>
> Robyn Coburn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> thks been busy with household stuff . Hubby busy with work business trip
etc.

Fetteroll

on 2/8/03 6:09 PM, Kathy Evans at devapriya108@... wrote:

> My
> question is about the kids helping with household
> maintenance.

As someone suggested, there was a thread recently. You could try typing
chores or housework into Search Archives at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom/messages That should bring
up the general area of the threads. Once you get to the proper time frame,
if you click on Expand Messages that will give you sort of a digest's worth
of messages at a time.

> How have you all handled the
> basics? Trash, dishes etc. Have you had a meeting and
> tried to see how the things can get done so that
> everyone agrees?

In summary, it seems so obvious that kids should help. It's like breathing.
But it helps to picture wanting something ridiculous like scrubbing the
garage floor or putting objects used multiple times a day away on high
shelves only accessible by a ladder.

How would you get the family to cooperate in meeting those "needs"?

You don't ;-) You recognize those "needs" belong to you. You can do them
joyfully and ask for help. But it can't be an order disguised as a question.
No must be an acceptable answer.

> I like the idea of working things
> out very democratically, where everyone is involved in
> the running of the house or whatever decisions have to
> be made. It is all worked out as a team.

Did everyone volunteer to be on the team? Pretending it's a democracy is
paying lip service to democracy when everyone but the leaders were
conscripted.

It *can* be done democratically if the parents recognize the chores belong
to them and 1) ask the kids for help, 2) accept no as an answer and 3)
appreciate that however little the child does, that's less you'll have to
do. OR if they make more work than they give, appreciate that you have
someone who wants to be with you and help you. And maybe that second one is
best regardless of how much help they are:-)

Joyce

Mary Bianco

Well I think it's been about 4 day since I've decided to stop asking for
clean up time in my non coercive/coercive kind of way. <BG>
It hasn't been half as bad as I expected. Joseph's room looks pretty much
the same and the girls room is barely any different except for a small pile
I scooted off to the side. The playroom has been pretty nice for the most
part. Aside of course from last night. My kids play with lots of small
things. Marbles, loose beads and small little plastic people with hinged
arms and legs. Well I went into the playroom last night and there wasn't one
spot not covered by something on the floor. I was shocked but kept it all
pretty much to myself!!! I asked maybe if the kids thought it was a bit
messy, they agreed and then I asked if they would want to clean some stuff
up. Joseph answered no (there's that no I never get) and I left the room.
About half an hour later, I made my way back there again and it was
spotless. I commented on it and Joseph said him and Sierra made a game out
of it. They each cleaned up 76 things. My, I was impressed.

Mary B

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Deborah Lewis

On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:06:44 +0000 "Mary Bianco" <mummyone24@...>
writes:
> Well I think it's been about 4 day since I've decided to stop asking
> for
> clean up time in my non coercive/coercive kind of way. <BG>

Mary,
I meant to respond to your other post and I don't know why I didn't get
to it.
Dylan asks all the time if he can do something or if he can have
something even though he knows he doesn't have to ask. I got irritated
with him once, asking if he could have a thing and I said "you know you
can, why are you asking?". I was snappy and not nice.
But he explained to me that he was asking in case someone else had wanted
it, or incase we were getting company and if he had some there might not
be enough left, etc. He asks out of consideration.
I'm so lucky to have a child who models good behavior. <g>
I felt like crap for getting irritated, but now I understand his desire
to be polite and thoughtful and I think it's a very nice quality.
Maybe that's how it is with your kids too. Maybe they don't see your
asking as a covert demand, and therefor still feel like they must ask for
things. Maybe they're just being considerate.

Deb L, slower now at being snappy...

Mary Bianco

>From: Deborah Lewis <ddzimlew@...>

<<Maybe they don't see your,asking as a covert demand, and therefor still
feel like they must ask for things. Maybe they're just being
considerate.>>


Thanks for responding Deb. I'm almost embarrassed to say I never really
looked at it this way. Just didn't get why they would ask for things they
knew were okay to do or have. And since I've also stopped the clean up time
at night, thinking that was a bit coercive on my anal cleaning mode, they've
still been pretty much the same and in fact, neater on their own. I like
that.

Mary B



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Kathy Evans

Thankyou Joyce for your reply. I respect your
opinion very much. I have not read the archives yet
and hope I am not repeating specific topics too much.
I dont know how you have arrived at the opinion that
the chores belong to the parents. It cant be this
black and white. If this is so, then when does that
change? Sandra mentioned something about being too
tired to cook one eve. and that her kids were old
enough to make something for themselves anyway. Maybe
the distinction is that we dont have a right to demand
anything of anyone. But cant we expect a little help.
Taking some responsibility for oneself? "Expect" may
even be too harsh a word. But cant we explain that
(for example, if this were the case) mom or dad have
xy &z going on and that we cant do all that needs to
be done and still keep our sweet and happy tones
going? OK, I guess the answer is that we have to be
willing to deal with a NO from them. And then they may
have to deal with certain consequences like their
laundry doesnt get done or whatever. Am I on the right
track?
I dont really understand how a child in a family is
not already on the team just by virtue of the fact
that he/she is a part of the family. ( I believe that
we all choose very purposefully where to
incarnate--not that "they did not ask to be born and
therfore they are not responsible"--like they are
innocent bystanders or something). Are you saying that
if they want to eat in their room and dont want to
pick up the fallen food and then there is a big ant
infestation that they dont need to take responsibility
for that? I dont think thats what you mean. I did read
some of Sandras stuff in the archives related to this.
That it all depends on whats going on in the family
etc, who has the time and energy to help clean up the
mess. We dont want to trash our kids for the sake of
an ant infestation. I love that point she made. I'm
just talking about teaching responsibility for ones
actions. I dont think its a given that the parents are
responsible for everything. Probably nature will take
its course in these instances, over time, as it does
everwhere and the kids will strive to be responsible
-"because that is their nature".
> Anyway, thanks.
Kathy

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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/11/2003 9:03:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
devapriya108@... writes:

> I dont really understand how a child in a family is
> not already on the team just by virtue of the fact
> that he/she is a part of the family. ( I believe that
> we all choose very purposefully where to
> incarnate--not that "they did not ask to be born and
> therfore they are not responsible"--like they are
> innocent bystanders or something).


So you're saying that my friend's adopted boys boys ASKED to be born to
parents who would burn their scalps and arms with cigarettes and break their
9 month old sister's BOTH arms? WHY would a child purposefully CHOOSE those
parents? What about all the children my friend Jerry sees every day through
his job as DSS spokesman---with injuries so severe that they can't even be
printed in the newspaper---too shocking and WAY too graphic!

Children are born to women to want them and love them as well as to women who
have no use for them! I think it's a lovely thought if we all have happy,
sweet childhoods. But the miserable, awful childhoods that exist should prove
that's NOT the case!

~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/11/03 7:03:25 PM, devapriya108@... writes:

<< OK, I guess the answer is that we have to be
willing to deal with a NO from them. And then they may
have to deal with certain consequences like their
laundry doesnt get done or whatever. >>

Do you mean that if your child said no about something, you might retaliate
by not doing laundry?

<< I dont really understand how a child in a family is
not already on the team just by virtue of the fact
that he/she is a part of the family. ( I believe that
we all choose very purposefully where to
incarnate--not that "they did not ask to be born and
therfore they are not responsible"--like they are
innocent bystanders or something). >>

If YOU believe a child chose to be a part of your family and so whatever you
do to them was their choice, you're part of a large new-age subset of people
who (IN MY OPINION) justify bad behavior with vague tales of reincarnation
and choices of unborn souls picking the situation they need.

I don't personally like that. But whether I like or believe it or you like
or believe it doesn't make it so.

There are some Christians (some millions of them) who think God gave them
those children to do with as they will, that one of the commandments is
children should honor their mothers and fathers but there are no commandments
about how to treat children except not to kill them.

I'm not operating under either of those scenarios.

Those who are will not feel the way I do about children's rights. That's
okay.

<<Are you saying that
if they want to eat in their room and dont want to
pick up the fallen food and then there is a big ant
infestation that they dont need to take responsibility
for that? I dont think thats what you mean. I did read
some of Sandras stuff in the archives related to this.
That it all depends on whats going on in the family
etc, who has the time and energy to help clean up the
mess. We dont want to trash our kids for the sake of
an ant infestation. I love that point she made.>>

I don't know what point I made anymore, but my kids eat in their rooms and we
don't have ant infestations. Some teensy ants came in to the catfood
bathroom a couple of weeks ago. I sprayed ant spray along the baseboard and
I'm still feeding the cats in the bathroom.

<< I'm just talking about teaching responsibility for ones
actions. >>

I chose to have children. I don't belong to a religion that told me to have
children. I had children because I wanted to.

Taking responsibility for my actions in that instance, I try to make my
children's lives comfortable and happy. I do consider that taking
responsibility for my actions.

<<Probably nature will take
its course in these instances, over time, as it does
everwhere and the kids will strive to be responsible
-"because that is their nature". >>

My kids don't strive to be responsible. They're just kindhearted good
natured people who have been nurtured and they're pretty nurturing back.
They're honest and helpful.

I know other kids who have been parented more harshly and they're not as nice
as my kids.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 2/11/03 9:01 PM, Kathy Evans at devapriya108@... wrote:

> I have not read the archives yet
> and hope I am not repeating specific topics too much.

Well, let's put it this way. This may take you 5 or 10 minutes to read. But
it will have taken me at least 10 times that long to write. I take the time
to answer because I want to and because I usually find some new insight, but
rather than replying immediately it would be respectful for you to spend at
least that much time going through the archive to see what others spent that
much time and more writing very recently.

> I dont know how you have arrived at the opinion that
> the chores belong to the parents.

My goal isn't improving the state of my house but improving my relationship
with my daughter. My goal is to put the relationship first and then figure
out how to fit other things in without damaging it.

Most parents say "I put my children first BUT ..." But that "but" changes
statement. If you've ever made a child cry or get angry or slam doors over
something to do with the house then at those times the chores are coming
first. Most parents may feel the times their children come first are enough
to balance out the times they don't. (Even more important, I think, is what
the children think!)

If that's your thought, then none of this will make sense.

But one thing that shifted my thinking was realizing I was making withdrawls
from my relationship with my daughter to pay for something that would be
gone tomorrow. And I'd have to do that everyday. In 10 years what would I
have to show for all those withdrawls?

> If this is so, then when does that change?

When do (in my opinion) the chores not belong to the parents? Never.

That *doesn't* mean the parents must chores alone while the kids play until
the kids leave the house.

Look at it this way. What if your child played a video game every day. What
if there were parts of the game that he had to do but didn't like to do to
get through the day's task. What if he decided that because you were there
that automatically made you part of the team in the things he thought were
important. What if he assigned you parts of the game to do everyday? What if
he *expected* you to do it just because it was important to him and he
decided it was your job to help out?

That seems ridiculous. But to kids the things we think are important are
just as ridiculous. *If* you look at chores from an adult understanding
you'll never understand why kids don't just pitch in. If you look at chores
from a child's understanding, you'll get why the kids feel imposed on.

If your son wanted you to help with his video game, how could he ask? If you
look at chores from a child's understanding, then it's a whole lot easier to
figure out what are good ways and bad ways you could ask for help to get
honest to goodness help, not forced conscription.

> But cant we expect a little help.

If we model helping them, then they will help us. (On *their* schedule.)

(And the help has to be helping *them* not doing for them the things we
think they should do. Making dinner isn't really helping them. Cleaning up
after them isn't really helping them. Taking time from what you're doing to
do something that they feel is important -- even if and perhaps *especially*
if you don't see it as important -- models helping for them.)

If we model that we think it's fair to conscript help because what we want
is more important than what they want, then what are they learning about how
to handle situations where their needs conflict with other people's needs?
We're essentially saying that being bigger and stronger means you get to
have what you want.

We *can't* expect them to understand the importance of what we need to do.
They won't truly understand until they are adults and choose to do it
themselves. (And we can't force that understanding because forcing them to
do something isn't the same as knowing you have full freedom of choice to do
something or not and know the consequences are truly yours to own.)

What we want is to model giving based on the importance someone that we care
about places on something. We want them to say "Okay" when we ask because we
wouldn't ask unless it was something very important. But what we model for
them is judging the importance *we* place on something and deciding if it's
important enough to interrupt for. For instance if they ask us to drive them
to the store for a new game, we can't see that as important so we place it
low on our priority list. But then when we ask them to pick up the toys, we
don't accept that as being low on *their* priority list. We expect them to
put it high on their priority list just because it's high on ours.

> Taking some responsibility for oneself? "Expect" may
> even be too harsh a word.

You're assuming that if you give then you're entitled to get something back.
But giving means you're doing it because you have a gift that you want to
give someone *not* because you expect something in return.

If, for instance, you decided you wanted to give them a big yard to play in,
why would the job of maintaining that yard then fall on the kids? Is it
really a gift if they're required to maintain it to your standards? And if
it's theirs then can they decide to turn it into a meadow so they can keep
it to their standards?

> But cant we explain that
> (for example, if this were the case) mom or dad have
> xy &z going on and that we cant do all that needs to
> be done and still keep our sweet and happy tones
> going? OK, I guess the answer is that we have to be
> willing to deal with a NO from them. And then they may
> have to deal with certain consequences like their
> laundry doesnt get done or whatever. Am I on the right
> track?

No. The kids are not responsible for your emotions. Your emotions are yours.
If you're getting upset, then it's probably because you're trying to control
them and they aren't cooperating. You're trying to get them to do what you
want them to do.

One answer is to figure out how to stop wanting whatever it is you want them
to do. Another is to figure out how to get what you want without depending
on them. Another is to tackle the thing you're getting upset about and
figure out how to minimize task. (Rethinking how you do laundry. How the
family gets fed. Where toys get put away. There are probably parts that you
do that you really don't need to like folding, or sorting or having 3 meals
a day. If your kids are more important then it will be important to really
rethink the things you think are necessary and figure out how they can stop
you from damaging your relationship with your kids.)

> I dont really understand how a child in a family is
> not already on the team just by virtue of the fact
> that he/she is a part of the family. ( I believe that
> we all choose very purposefully where to
> incarnate--not that "they did not ask to be born and
> therfore they are not responsible"--like they are
> innocent bystanders or something).

Your belief doesn't cause your children to be born with that understanding
and outlook. *If* they chose you -- and I find the thought as disturbing as
Kelly -- children behave as though they chose *us*, not our chores or the
maintainences on the so-called gifts we give them. What they came for is our
love and time. Not the work we can get them to do to maintain the life we
want to "give" them.

Maybe they'd prefer to live with you in a tar paper shack so that they could
have the freedom to be messy and have more time to spend with you and your
husband. So anything else you spend time on is giving them gifts that they
don't really want. They are gifts that *you* want to give them. It helps our
attitude a lot to see what we give them as things *we* want to provide and
*not* as something we expect them to appreciate. Then we can accept
ownership of them. Or drop them if we realize we've been doing something
only because we felt we had to.

> I'm
> just talking about teaching responsibility for ones
> actions. I dont think its a given that the parents are
> responsible for everything. Probably nature will take
> its course in these instances, over time, as it does
> everwhere and the kids will strive to be responsible
> -"because that is their nature".

*You* chose to bring them into the world. How are you not responsible for
everything? Even if your beliefs say you aren't responsible for the
particular souls you ended up with, you are responsible for making it
possible for them to arrive. They didn't appear without your involvement!

People will strive to be responsible for what they feel ownership in. And
they will feel responsible to the level that they feel is important to them.

How could your husband teach you to feel responsible for keeping the garage
floor spotless? From your kids' points of view that's what you're asking of
them.

> Are you saying that
> if they want to eat in their room and dont want to
> pick up the fallen food and then there is a big ant
> infestation that they dont need to take responsibility
> for that? I dont think thats what you mean. I did read
> some of Sandras stuff in the archives related to this.
> That it all depends on whats going on in the family
> etc, who has the time and energy to help clean up the
> mess.

You are seeing that the relationship between parents and chldren is a battle
of wills. It's about who gets to do what they want.

I see it as being there to help kids live life.

Why would kids *want* to do things that are destructive or don't make sense?
The answer is that they don't. (Unless things are forbidden or controlled.)
But there is something that is preventing them from making the connection
between their actions and the consequences. It could be that they're just
oblivious to their environment. It could be they haven't truly made the
connection between bugs and food. (Understanding a fact (bugs like food)
isn't the same as understanding that it applies in a particular situation.
And maybe it doesn't! Does it make sense that bugs outside will "know"
there's food in a bedroom? *Especially* if you are in the habit of saying
something *will* happen when in truth it *may* happen.)

If we approach life with them with the attitude that what they need is
information or skills or reminders, and once we stop trying to make them be
the way we want them to be and accept where they are, then life is a lot
less stress filled.

If they accept that food in bedrooms equals bugs, when you see them heading
to their bedrooms with food you can keep reminding them that it's a better
idea to eat in the kitchen and suggest that they could bring something to
their food. (How to Talk So Kids Will Listen has a lot of good tips about
wording to use.) If you've reminded them numerous times, it could be they
just aren't aware enough of what they're doing and you'll have to wait for
maturity to take care of understanding what they're hearing. And accept that
you'll have to make plate sweeps a couple of times a day.

Here's an example of not remembering. Our bathroom is dark but is off a very
bright hall. The light switch is outside the door. Now I really want to
conserve electricity and I don't want to leave lights on unnecessarily. But
as you're coming out of the bathroom, there's no visual clue to remind you
that the light behind you is on because it's so bright in the hallway. So I
often forget.

How could someone help me to remember? Should they tell me to get up from
what I'm doing later and turn off the light? Should they get angry because
I'm 46 yo and am old enough to remember for myself? Or should whoever's
passing by just turn off the light?

Joyce

Tia Leschke

> My goal isn't improving the state of my house but improving my
relationship
> with my daughter. My goal is to put the relationship first and then figure
> out how to fit other things in without damaging it.

A tiny part of another Joyce "Keeper". Thanks Joyce.
Tia

Kathy Evans

Thankyou Joyce and Sandra for your replies. I have
so many thoughts going through my head on this topic.
I am going to find the archives before I comment
further. I'm really sorry I didn't do that already.
Actually I did but wasnt sure I found all the
discussions you were talking about. I did find some
but suspected there were more and then procrastinated
because making my way around computers still
intimidates and exhausts me a little. Thankyou for
pointing out how much time went into them.
You both made excellent points. Joyce, your examples
were brilliant, really helpful. I really am totally on
the same page as far as respecting children. I'm just
learning more of how it manifests day to day in
different situations. I dont have any career agenda or
anything that comes before my children. Probably my
main passion is protecting and defending and loving
children.
Kathy


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Pam Sorooshian

Kathy - I like the way this kind of stuff is talked about in the "How
to Talk so Kids will Listen and...." books.

I'm not much of a housekeeper (understatement of the year) and my kids
don't get asked to do much, since I'm not doing much either. But - if
they are walking through the living room to get clean laundry off the
floor, wearing a wet towel from their shower, and if they drop the wet
towel on the couch and put on their clean clothes right there - I will
say: "Wet towel?" and they'll pick it up and hang it up. If they don't
- if they get distracted - I'll just do it.

I often say: "Hey Roxana - can you find time in the next hour or so to
do a couple of things to help get the house under control?" She'll
decided what needs doing (she's 15) or she'll ask me what I want and
I'll say: "Well - unload the dishwasher and fold that laundry on the
living room floor and put it on each person's bed." Often I'll ask her
to declutter some specific area of the house - like clear off and put
away all the stuff on the dining room table. Sometimes she is too
involved in what she's doing and she forgets. Gee, kind of like ME!!!
So I remind her and she does it -- or if she's run out of time, then I
just let it go.

She's the most cooperative of my three kids, in this regard. That's
because she LIKES things to be more orderly - I'm sure she'd help even
more if I was into it <G>.

I'd LOVE to have a clean orderly house - but I can't drag myself away
from talking to all of YOU to get around to making that happen!!!

-pam


On Tuesday, February 11, 2003, at 06:01 PM, Kathy Evans wrote:

> Thankyou Joyce for your reply. I respect your
> opinion very much. I have not read the archives yet
> and hope I am not repeating specific topics too much.
> I dont know how you have arrived at the opinion that
> the chores belong to the parents. It cant be this
> black and white. If this is so, then when does that
> change? Sandra mentioned something about being too
> tired to cook one eve. and that her kids were old
> enough to make something for themselves anyway. Maybe
> the distinction is that we dont have a right to demand
> anything of anyone. But cant we expect a little help.
> Taking some responsibility for oneself? "Expect" may
> even be too harsh a word. But cant we explain that
> (for example, if this were the case) mom or dad have
> xy &z going on and that we cant do all that needs to
> be done and still keep our sweet and happy tones
> going? OK, I guess the answer is that we have to be
> willing to deal with a NO from them. And then they may
> have to deal with certain consequences like their
> laundry doesnt get done or whatever. Am I on the right
> track?
> I dont really understand how a child in a family is
> not already on the team just by virtue of the fact
> that he/she is a part of the family. ( I believe that
> we all choose very purposefully where to
> incarnate--not that "they did not ask to be born and
> therfore they are not responsible"--like they are
> innocent bystanders or something). Are you saying that
> if they want to eat in their room and dont want to
> pick up the fallen food and then there is a big ant
> infestation that they dont need to take responsibility
> for that? I dont think thats what you mean. I did read
> some of Sandras stuff in the archives related to this.
> That it all depends on whats going on in the family
> etc, who has the time and energy to help clean up the
> mess. We dont want to trash our kids for the sake of
> an ant infestation. I love that point she made. I'm
> just talking about teaching responsibility for ones
> actions. I dont think its a given that the parents are
> responsible for everything. Probably nature will take
> its course in these instances, over time, as it does
> everwhere and the kids will strive to be responsible
> -"because that is their nature".
>> Anyway, thanks.
> Kathy
>
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Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org

Kathy Evans

> Kathy - I like the way this kind of stuff is talked
> about in the "How
> to Talk so Kids will Listen and...." books.
>

Pam, I think I have that book. I will re-read it. Its
been recommended a few times now on this site, I
think.
Thankyou for the suggestion.
Kathy

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