Alan & Brenda Leonard

2/8/03 23:20:

>> In every instrument the notation of "C" means "C".
>
> Not on a transposing instrument.
>
> Ok, this is new to me. I'll look it up, but if you feel like it, I'd be glad
> to hear more about it. Given your example of a violin, I assume that is
> considered a "transposing instrument". I've never heard it called that. I'll
> check it out.

No, a violin is a C instrument, as in, c means c. But a B flat or E flat
clarinet transposes, french horns, trumpets, and english horn all transpose.
I'm not sure about oboe, bassoon, or trombone. I'm a string player and we
don't. On a B flat instrument, C is printed as B flat. I think.....

<snipped from a different message>

> When a composer writes the musical score, he also has to check to see what the
> harmony will end up as because of this variation.

I can't tell you what Mozart did, but the composers I've met tend to write
in C and then go back and transpose the parts (or pay someone else who
really "gets it" to mess with it, or have the computer do it for them). A
composer plans the harmony, writing for a transposing instrument merely
means that before you hand the player the part, it has to read right to them
to play what you had in mind. In short, the other way around.

I'm not good at transposition. (I memorized it for a theory test a long
time ago, and promptly forgot it....), but there used to be a french horn
player around here someplace. Maybe she could explain it to you....

brenda

marji

At 00:00 2/9/03 +0100, Brenda wrote:

>No, a violin is a C instrument, as in, c means c. But a B flat or E flat
>clarinet transposes, french horns, trumpets, and english horn all transpose.
>I'm not sure about oboe, bassoon, or trombone. I'm a string player and we
>don't. On a B flat instrument, C is printed as B flat. I think.....

Your close here, Brenda. When a E-flat instrument player (alto sax, for
example) plays a 'C' on her sax, a piano player would strike an E-flat to
get the same pitch. Therefore, when an alto sax player is reading music
written for a C instrument, she has to transpose it up (I think) a minor
third in order to play the same pitches that are written down. Does that
explain it? That's my best shot. :-)

Back to working/lurking.

Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

I always thought transposition meant that when a piece is written in one key and you had to move it into another key, the whole score was transposed.

I never realized it was so much more than that, probably because I never played a transposing instrument.

Thank you for your explanation. I had looked it up because Sandra had me baffled and realized then that we were both right. A B flat instrument can play a "c", but it is written as a different note...and a writen "c" is played as a b flat.

On the other hand, isn't it true that the transpositions for one instrument would be the same? In other words, no matter what score of music you are playing the "c" would sound as a b flat? So, as long as you are playing that single instrument, the notations in the music will have a consistant meaning, even if its not the same meaning as another instrument?

Gosh I hope I'm making some kind of sense. I'm not feeling well today.

Kristen

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan & Brenda Leonard
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] math and music


2/8/03 23:20:

>> In every instrument the notation of "C" means "C".
>
> Not on a transposing instrument.
>
> Ok, this is new to me. I'll look it up, but if you feel like it, I'd be glad
> to hear more about it. Given your example of a violin, I assume that is
> considered a "transposing instrument". I've never heard it called that. I'll
> check it out.

No, a violin is a C instrument, as in, c means c. But a B flat or E flat
clarinet transposes, french horns, trumpets, and english horn all transpose.
I'm not sure about oboe, bassoon, or trombone. I'm a string player and we
don't. On a B flat instrument, C is printed as B flat. I think.....

<snipped from a different message>

> When a composer writes the musical score, he also has to check to see what the
> harmony will end up as because of this variation.

I can't tell you what Mozart did, but the composers I've met tend to write
in C and then go back and transpose the parts (or pay someone else who
really "gets it" to mess with it, or have the computer do it for them). A
composer plans the harmony, writing for a transposing instrument merely
means that before you hand the player the part, it has to read right to them
to play what you had in mind. In short, the other way around.

I'm not good at transposition. (I memorized it for a theory test a long
time ago, and promptly forgot it....), but there used to be a french horn
player around here someplace. Maybe she could explain it to you....

brenda


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan & Brenda Leonard

2/10/03 04:14:

> A good player should be able to
>> transpose in their head from a "c" part, but in reality, not everybody is
>> necessarily good at that.
>
> ...or wants to work that hard all the time, especially if the piece is
> written in some screwy key or the piece has double sharps or double flats
> in them! ;-)

Absolutely! I sort of figured it was like, well, math! I know math
reasonably well, I really like it. And I am able do math in my head. But
in reality, I'm not really very quick at it, and like my piece of paper or
the calculator a lot better!

brenda

Have a Nice Day!

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan & Brenda Leonard
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] math and music


2/10/03 04:14:

> A good player should be able to
>> transpose in their head from a "c" part, but in reality, not everybody is
>> necessarily good at that.
>
> ...or wants to work that hard all the time, especially if the piece is
> written in some screwy key or the piece has double sharps or double flats
> in them! ;-)

Absolutely! I sort of figured it was like, well, math! I know math
reasonably well, I really like it. And I am able do math in my head. But
in reality, I'm not really very quick at it, and like my piece of paper or
the calculator a lot better!

brenda
AHA!

Did we just make a circle? Is this what you meant originally when you said math was like music? Or wasn't that you....(sigh)..I can't remember anymore :o).

Kristen



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/03 11:03:39 AM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< Did we just make a circle? Is this what you meant originally when you
said math was like music? Or wasn't that you....(sigh)..I can't remember
anymore :o).
>>

Music IS math, and physics, and history, and geography, and art.

But what started the discussion, I think, was the idea that mathematics is a
language and a set of patterns which can then be set down in a form of
notation (more than one form), just like music is a language and a set of
patterns which can be (but doesn't have to be) set down in a form of notation
(more than one form).

Sandra

Tia Leschke

Way way behind on some of this.

>
> No, a violin is a C instrument, as in, c means c. But a B flat or E flat
> clarinet transposes, french horns, trumpets, and english horn all
transpose.
> I'm not sure about oboe, bassoon, or trombone. I'm a string player and we
> don't. On a B flat instrument, C is printed as B flat. I think.....

It's the other way around. When a B flat instrument plays a C it *sounds*
Bb. When a French horn (F instrument) plays a C it sounds F. So if you
want the clarinet to play a C, you write a D. When you want a French horn
to play a C, you write a G.
>
> I'm not good at transposition. (I memorized it for a theory test a long
> time ago, and promptly forgot it....), but there used to be a french horn
> player around here someplace. Maybe she could explain it to you....

Hopefully I did. <g>
Tia

Tia Leschke

> I always thought transposition meant that when a piece is written in one
key and you had to move it into another key, the whole score was transposed.

This is what happens when a singer can't sing something in the original key.
Then everything has to get transposed.
>
> I never realized it was so much more than that, probably because I never
played a transposing instrument.

> On the other hand, isn't it true that the transpositions for one
instrument would be the same? In other words, no matter what score of music
you are playing the "c" would sound as a b flat? So, as long as you are
playing that single instrument, the notations in the music will have a
consistant meaning, even if its not the same meaning as another instrument?

If I'm understanding you correctly, yes. A French horn will always *sound*
a fifth down from the written note. (unless we're already transposing, ie
playing a part written for horn in something other than F. That gets more
complicated.)
Tia

ed hodgins

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tia Leschke" <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] math and music


> Way way behind on some of this.
>
> >
> > No, a violin is a C instrument, as in, c means c. But a B flat or E
flat
> > clarinet transposes, french horns, trumpets, and english horn all
> transpose.
> > I'm not sure about oboe, bassoon, or trombone. I'm a string player and
we
> > don't. On a B flat instrument, C is printed as B flat. I think.....
>
> It's the other way around. When a B flat instrument plays a C it *sounds*
> Bb. When a French horn (F instrument) plays a C it sounds F. So if you
> want the clarinet to play a C, you write a D. When you want a French horn
> to play a C, you write a G.
> >
> > I'm not good at transposition. (I memorized it for a theory test a long
> > time ago, and promptly forgot it....), but there used to be a french
horn
> > player around here someplace. Maybe she could explain it to you....
>
> Hopefully I did. <g>
> Tia
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
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> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> I am a clarinet player. I used to play a lot more during both elementry
but have a hard time playing now with to young children 20 mthsand 2
1/2yrs. This sounds right to me. Music is one of the few classes I enjoyed
in school and hope my children take intrest in as well.