nellebelle

I am confused by something in an essay by John Anderson at unschooling.com
website. http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/our8yearold.html

In the essay, he says that:

"Of course, we ensure they do some of the 3R's each day. For instance, we
require our daughter to write in her journal daily. And math is a daily
kitchen table event."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but is requiring someone to write
in a journal really unschooling? I'm not sure what he means about the math.

Mary Ellen

Jon and Rue Kream

" Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but is requiring someone
to write
in a journal really unschooling? "

Nope :0)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/03 1:52:59 PM, nellebelle@... writes:

<< Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but is requiring someone to
write
in a journal really unschooling? I'm not sure what he means about the math.
>>

I don't know who he is so I can't defend him. <g>

The essays were put up when the forum was new and haven't been touched for a
couple of years. If it gets to the point that there's active editing going
on, maybe requrest a rebuttal! <bwg>

Sandra

Jon and Rue Kream

" I don't know who he is so I can't defend him. "

I know who he is, and based on past conversations with him, I'd guess he
means that he teaches the kids math, and requires that they write in a
journal, but he still thinks he's unschooling. From what I remember
he's big on 'learning opportunities' and 'teachable moments'. Wasn't he
on this list at one time? ~Rue



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

That essay upsets me,

to me that sounds like an ecclectic style of homeschool. Maybe some unschoolers do this, but in my book it isn't unschooling. If essays like that are at the unschooling web site it really explains why people are having a hard time defining unschooling.

Then I also wonder if there are different levels of unschooling. I didn't think so. Are there purist unschoolers or radical unschoolers and are there somewhat unschoolers or almost unschoolers? Then I guess we can ask how effective will unschooling be if it is more of an ecclectic style or not complete unschooling in practice?

I guess I'm probably just a purist in alot of ways and it comes into conflict alot of the time.

Just some comments and questions.

Kelli


nellebelle <nellebelle@...> wrote:I am confused by something in an essay by John Anderson at unschooling.com
website. http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/our8yearold.html

In the essay, he says that:

"Of course, we ensure they do some of the 3R's each day. For instance, we
require our daughter to write in her journal daily. And math is a daily
kitchen table event."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but is requiring someone to write
in a journal really unschooling? I'm not sure what he means about the math.

Mary Ellen


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<That essay upsets me, to me that sounds like an ecclectic style of
homeschool. Maybe some unschoolers do this, but in my book it isn't
unschooling. If essays like that are at the unschooling web site it
really explains why people are having a hard time defining unschooling.
Then I also wonder if there are different levels of unschooling. I
didn't think so. >>





I agree. My understanding of it is in order to use the label for
yourself of Unschooling, it is an all the way proposition. An analogy -
a recovering alcoholic can't say they are "sober except for having a
glass of beer with dinner on Saturdays". This person is not "sober".
Someone outside of the recovery community might say, "that's nothing",
but it makes a huge difference to the other members of AA. If you are
unschooling except for "requiring" a journal - that is an oxymoron. That
person is not Unschooling in the way we understand it here. Although to
someone doing school-at-home or in the school system it would seem like
nothing. I would define that person as Eclectic, and possibly still on
the journey towards unschooling. I was going to suggest Relaxed, but the
idea of such a requirement sounds like a great tension inducer in the
home.

BTW, it also sounds like a terrific way of turning a budding writer off
journalizing!



Robyn Coburn









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/03 11:43:01 PM, dezigna@... writes:

<< An analogy -
a recovering alcoholic can't say they are "sober except for having a
glass of beer with dinner on Saturdays". This person is not "sober".
Someone outside of the recovery community might say, "that's nothing",
but it makes a huge difference to the other members of AA. >>

Some people Do quit drinking without AA's total abstinence.

Some moms continue to breastfeed babies even though they supplement.

Some people are going to unschool in ways other than the radical abstaining
and non-supplemented unschooling pushed on this list. <bwg>

Sandra

Heidi <[email protected]>

> Some people are going to unschool in ways other than the radical
abstaining
> and non-supplemented unschooling pushed on this list. <bwg>

Hear! Hear!

thanks, Sandra. My focus has been "How will we incorporate
unschooling methods in how we educate our kids?" I promise, I will
never call myself an "unschooler" LOL unless I go all the way, eh?

peace, Heidi

coyote's corner

-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 3:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] J. Anderson essay at unschooling.com


In a message dated 2/8/03 11:43:01 PM, dezigna@... writes:

<< An analogy -
a recovering alcoholic can't say they are "sober except for having a
glass of beer with dinner on Saturdays". This person is not "sober".
Someone outside of the recovery community might say, "that's nothing",
but it makes a huge difference to the other members of AA. >>

<<Some people Do quit drinking without AA's total abstinence.>>
Excuse me, are you a friend of Bill's?



Some moms continue to breastfeed babies even though they supplement.

Some people are going to unschool in ways other than the radical abstaining
and non-supplemented unschooling pushed on this list. <bwg>

Sandra

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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

snip-----> Some people are going to unschool in ways other than the radical
abstaining
> and non-supplemented unschooling pushed on this list. <bwg>>>>>>

Yes, people may do all sorts of things and think they are unschooling.
However, it is confusing to hear that we should read unschooling.com to
learn about unschooling, then read there that "of course we require ... and
do math...". It implies that unschooling can mean "everything but math and
writing" and still be unschooling, and this is from a source that is said to
present real unschooling. Maybe there should be a disclaimer about the
article not representing true unschooling...

Mary Ellen

[email protected]

Sandra,

I agree with you. I was about to post a similar comment but very frequently
on this list is seems as if people's minds are somewhat closed. Ok, now
don't everyone attack at once...but...

The unassisted childbirth list I am on can tend to be that way too at times
about how women "ought" to birth unassisted and if you have a midwife present
or even the father, then it isn't truely an unassisted birth. Well to me,
that is crazy. And everything can be taken to the extreme.

As I have said on the UC board, I will say here. It would benefit the
old-timers who perhaps are all for complete, pure unschooling to help those
of us who are new to this concept come to it in a gentle way which is of
course a process. And who is to say what unschooling is or isn't. In our
society we don't naturally think unschooling is the way to go, just as we are
trained to think we need OBs to have babies.

I feel for now if my children and I can work together towards some sort of
process that satisfies us both and allows them to grow into adults who can
function in our society and "unschooling" is the way to do it, then I think
that is great. But I don't want anyone else to define what unschooling ought
to be for us-nor do I think that should be done to any person considering
this as an option. That is a process only each family can come to on their
own.

So in closing I think offering advice for what worked for each of us and how
we got to where we are in our journey would be a much more helpful route than
to say "Oh you aren't unschooling properly if you are doing this and such or
not doing this or that"....

just my 2 cents...

Debra


>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/8/03 11:43:01 PM, dezigna@... writes:
>
> << An analogy -
> a recovering alcoholic can't say they are "sober except for having a
> glass of beer with dinner on Saturdays". This person is not "sober".
> Someone outside of the recovery community might say, "that's nothing",
> but it makes a huge difference to the other members of AA. >>
>
> Some people Do quit drinking without AA's total abstinence.
>
> Some moms continue to breastfeed babies even though they supplement.
>
> Some people are going to unschool in ways other than the radical abstaining
>
> and non-supplemented unschooling pushed on this list. <bwg>
>
> Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

> The unassisted childbirth list I am on can tend to be that way too at
times
> about how women "ought" to birth unassisted and if you have a midwife
present
> or even the father, then it isn't truely an unassisted birth. Well to me,
> that is crazy. And everything can be taken to the extreme.

Well, to use your example . . . A lot of women do the regular hospital birth
with their first, maybe with a midwife in attendance. For the next one,
they might do a homebirth with a midwife. But to go the last distance, as
my daughter recently did with her third, requires a mind-shift. You can't
do it successfully if you're worried about all the possibilities. In fact,
the worry itself can actually cause a labour to slow down or stop, and could
produce those very possibilities that the mother was worried about..

I think people can come to unschooling in a similar way, but where would you
say that they were really unschooling? Personally, I would say it isn't
until they experience that mind-shift, the one that really gives them
confidence that helping their children to grow into who they really are will
also let them acquire the education that's exactly right for them. The mind
set that isn't looking for learning to look like school. That's why I don't
call it unschooling when certain academic requirements exist for the kids.
It's great if the parents are relaxing those requirements, but it isn't
unschooling yet.
Tia

nellebelle

----- snip----- And who is to say what unschooling is or isn't.>>>>

If I come to unschooling.com seeking information, than I DO want to know
what unschooling is and isn't. Perhaps there is no distinct, absolute
definition(??), but I think having some defining characteristics will be
more helpful than not. I don't think people should be offended if they are
told that what they are doing is not unschooling, if unschooling is what
they *want* to be doing. Of course we each need to find our own way within
our own family. There are too many human variables for someone to say that
all parents must do XYZ exactly the same way. But that doesn't mean that
unschooling is replicating a school in your home. If I think that I am
unschooling, while "of course requiring" and that is not really the essence
of unschooling, I would rather someone tell me that. Defining unschooling
doesn't mean that I must unschool. I am still free to do what I think is
best for my children. But I shouldn't say we unschool if we really don't.

That is why the wording in that essay bothered me. I understood that
unschooling means the parent doesn't require any "school work" of their
children. Then I read the essay at unschooling.com that claims "of course
we require" [journal keeping and kitchen table math]. The "of course we
require" implies that unschooling means the parent needs to make the child
do some academic work. Is that unschooling or isn't it? And if it isn't,
than the essay shouldn't be at unschooling.com or it should have a
disclaimer explaining that some of the content is not from an exclusive
unschooling viewpoint.

I worked with La Leche League for many years. I never told anybody that
100% exclusive breastfeeding was what *they should* do. But if someone
asked for information about breastfeeding, I would be doing them a
disservice if I said that breastfeeding works great even if you use formula
whenever it "works for your family". It doesn't mean that someone is right
or wrong to use formula, but it does mean that baby/mother pair will not
receive the same results and benefits as they would if they exclusively
breastfed. The mother should then realize that she combines breastfeeding
with formula; she is not exclusively breastfeeding.

So maybe we need partial unschooling and complete unschooling? Is that
possible?

Here is what I think some are saying about unschooling - that we need to
trust our children in everything, not trust them in everything but math, or
everything but feeding themselves, for instance. It doesn't mean that
children are left totally to their own devices either. Parents provide an
environment that includes math/food/etc., and are available to guide and
assist their children in using math/food/etc., and trust that children will
use math/food/etc., as they need to without the parent requiring it of them.
Going beyond that, arithmetic and food are things that we use to accomplish
our goals in life, but they are not the end goals by themselves.

Mary Ellen

Robyn Coburn

<<Some people Do quit drinking without AA's total abstinence.
Some moms continue to breastfeed babies even though they supplement.
Some people are going to unschool in ways other than the radical
abstaining
and non-supplemented unschooling pushed on this list. <bwg>
Sandra>>



Yes and people *can* practice non-coercive parenting and respectful
attitudes towards their children, even when they are enrolled in public
school. It is just a question of the naming. I could have used the
analogy that a group of vegans might not consider someone who described
themselves as "a vegan except for chocolate milkshakes" a "Vegan",
although that would be a perfectly valid dietary choice.

Following this food analogy, it was not until I became a vegetarian
about 15 years ago, that I realized how much meat I ate on a daily
basis, always believing that I ate very little. Friends would always
say, on hearing of my conversion, "Oh I don't eat much meat", evidently
operating under same belief I had entertained (and feeling defensive,
but that's another issue). Perhaps it is not until people renounce the
control and "requirements" that they realize how much these attitudes
affect their relationships with their children. Others have said this
kind of thing better before.

From the replies, I don't think there is any disagreement here on the
original question, which was whether "requiring a journal" could
accurately be called unschooling in any universe.



How important is the name? Well, I'm feeling lonely in my local support
group/e-list at the moment, since there are no other unschoolers there
anymore. One person on our list talked about how they have been almost
unschooling and she doesn't feel comfortable with that. I have yet to
see her to ask her about it. Another has recently asked how to make her
son write reports. A proud former Middle School English teacher sent a
multipage treatise on how to write school reports properly step by step,
to be greeted with acclaim, and the one lone voice who suggested that
maybe he didn't need to write reports right now was vilified as being
unhelpful. We have a lot of Unit Studies proponents in the group. One
parent was worried about math with her reluctant son, expressing how her
fears were causing tension in their relationship - I suggested with
utmost gentleness that there might be some helpful information at
Sandra's site - to help her feel less stressed about doing it NOW and
not "falling behind". It was not well taken.

Yet these parents are so much more pleasant to be around than "regular"
schooling parents, who mediate every interaction their kids have with
others, constantly yell "be careful" and "YOU MUST SHARE" etc. and whose
conversation is totally about getting their children to do their
homework. :-( The primary purpose of going to our weekly Park Day is
for our children to have fun and enhance their relationships with each
other, for which purpose we avoid parks that are well attended by other
groups, nannies and preschools. Still I don't feel safe enough to "come
out" as an unschooler. Since Jayn is three, I don't know how seriously I
would be taken anyway. It makes me nervous when I hear about some of the
other folk on this list who have told us about their kids being shunned.
Perhaps I have contempt prior to investigation, and what I do will be
roundly ignored by the others in my group as totally irrelevant to them.
The fact is I don't have any other friends with children, except one
couple who are friends of my dh, and are public schooling spankers of
their 5 yo. The first question I get asked when I tell regular people I
am homeschooling is about curriculum. They don't ask about socialization
- usually treating me to a lecture on the subject instead! *sigh* I
just want Jayn to be able to play with the same few kids regularly and
sit pleasantly and admire each other's great kids and their imaginative
games.

Sometimes I feel like I am letting down the side with silence. Recently
one mother (new to the group) was speaking of the Zero Tolerance for
hitting policy they have in their home. If their six yo son hits or
punches he is sent straight to bed until tomorrow, "even if it is 10 in
the morning". She was watching a rowdy boys' game unfolding, with great
apprehension. How can I, as the mother of a 3yo girl, say, "I think your
policy is well intentioned but dumb; what will it do to your son's
ability to express his feelings and feel safe in his home?", even if
that is how I feel. I would hardly blame her if she returned "Mind your
own business!" She is likely to learn much more by watching the
beautiful interactions between one mother of four boys and her
expressive and intelligent sons, who are regulars at Park Day. Oh well.
At least in my home we are unrestricted and full of the joy of this
lifestyle.



Robyn Coburn






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/9/03 2:25:11 PM, debsusedbooks@... writes:

<< if you have a midwife present
or even the father, then it isn't truely an unassisted birth. Well to me,
that is crazy. >>

But if the list says "unassisted" means the mom alone, then if a midwife or
husband is there...

<< But I don't want anyone else to define what unschooling ought
to be for us-nor do I think that should be done to any person considering
this as an option. >>

If we say "Okay, that's unschooling" to everyone who stops telling their
children when and where to 'do their math' or who says "you have to read
every day, but you can choose the book," then how CAN they consider as an
option the idea that kids can and will learn to do math and will read if you
don't make them do it?

If we say "Good job!" about everything, good or bad, there will be no pure
unschooling,

If everything short of a cesarean is called an unassisted birth, then there
will probably be no one willing to even consider a totally unassisted homebirt
h.

<<That is a process only each family can come to on their own. >>

Not without seeing examples or hearing stories.

And unless a woman's going to have twenty babies, she doesn't have that much
time to ease into it. And unless a kid's going to live at home for thirty
years, parents don't have that much time to decide to stop making them do
schoolwork to see how natural learning can blossom.

<<So in closing I think offering advice for what worked for each of us and
how
we got to where we are in our journey would be a much more helpful route than
to say "Oh you aren't unschooling properly if you are doing this and such or
not doing this or that"....>>

That sounds really good all by itself.

But if this list (or any unschooling source) affirms the anecdotes of each
person who shows up here and says "Sounds great!" to a ton of controlling
rules and "Sounds great!" to actual experience unschoolers the same way, then
those who are just coming by for a day or a week to see what they can pick up
on the fly will have no idea what unschooling might be. And those who stay a
month might be paying as much attention to someone who just got here, who
tests her kids every six months, who just took them out of school, who has a
curriculum in the closet just waiting for the moment it looks like this
unschooling experiment isn't going to work (not knowing the difference) as
she pays to someone who honestly walked away from school and schooling
fifteen years ago.

I like to assume that people who have finally come looking for unschoolnig
actually want to see what it is, not just to maybe hear a bit or two if they
stick around long enough to winnow through the stories on their own,
gradually, to decide whether they want to call relaxed or eclectic
"unschooling" and then never have to see the full range of possibilities.

It's not so easy to say "Let's just tell our stories occasionally and let
people decide what they want to do in their own time" *and* to provide
unschooling information today.

Sandra

the_clevengers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@a...> wrote:
> How important is the name? Well, I'm feeling lonely in my local
support
> group/e-list at the moment, since there are no other unschoolers
there
> anymore.

Wow, sounds like you are making the best of a dismal situation. One
suggestion I'd have, based on something that worked for a friend of
mine when she moved to a new (smaller) town was that she went to the
local health food store or co-op (which, I think, was quite a ways
away) and posted a sign about finding other attachment
parents/unschoolers. To her surprise, she did get a couple of phone
calls. Neither of the people lived right next door, but they were
within distance to be able to get together a few times a month. It
made a big difference for her to find people who were at least in the
same book as her, if not on exactly the same page.
Another place I'd check is La Leche League, if your 3 y.o. is
nursing. Many of the more radical moms I've met have matriculated up
through LLL. And no, I'm not even a member, just saying that's one
other place to look.
I do find, though, that the strangest thing occurs to even most of my
more radical mommy friends, online and real life. Even moms who have
homebirthed, cloth diapered, attachment parented, and nursed into
preschool age or beyond suddenly turn conventional when it comes to
schooling and just put their radically parented children straight
into the gaping maw of the school system. I don't understand it. It's
like homeschooling, let alone unschooling, is the last bastion that
most of the even quite radical don't cross. I mean, I know moms who
have had unassisted lotus births who end up sending their kids on the
bus to kindy when the time comes. It's baffling. I'm not saying that
attachment parenting or homebirthing is the only path to unschooling,
just that it's strange how people on an alternative path can suddenly
swerve back to the straight and narrow when it comes to school.
It can make it a lonely world for unschoolers. Hang in there.


Blue Skies,
-Robin-

Robyn Coburn

<<Wow, sounds like you are making the best of a dismal situation.>>



Gosh! I sure didn't mean it to sound dismal, or a bad situation. I'm
just having a crisis in my personal courage level right now. Also I am
so excited by what unschooling has given me already with Jayn, it makes
it hard for me to hear other people rejecting it. I have learnt a lot
from the women in my group, and they are kind and loving parents all
around. I don't want to be told how to parent or criticized, so I don't
want to make unsolicited suggestions to others. I don't see it as my
place to spread the word, beyond my general actions and the way I
interact with Jayn. Thanks for your concern and caring, though.



<<I do find, though, that the strangest thing occurs to even most of my
more radical mommy friends, online and real life.. >>

Yeah. when my friend's girl was a baby she was all about no spanking.
Now her father spanks her, and they "use time-outs" and that awful
counting thing. I have seen the girl go from giggling to wary fear in an
instant. Then she starts twirling her hair, and they instantly exclaim
"oh she's tired". Yeah right - what she is is stressed. Of course being
tired and not wanting to stop is another kind of stress, but I think the
twirling followed a little too close to being threatened for it to be
unconnected. The look on Jayn's face when this was going on.

We were planning to all go away for a road trip but I said I couldn't
because the stress level for me during our time together was too high.
Also I don't want Jayn exposed to that cruelty.



Robyn Coburn



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 2/9/03 4:23 PM, debsusedbooks@... at debsusedbooks@... wrote:

> But I don't want anyone else to define what unschooling ought
> to be for us-nor do I think that should be done to any person considering
> this as an option. That is a process only each family can come to on their
> own.

I think it sounds good in theory. It's very gentle and accepting of where
people are and their ability to find what works for them and their families.

But the list is *not* a list to help people find what works for their
families. It's unschooling. And unschooling *is* a specific philosophy with
goals that are different from any other form of homeschooling.

I think it helps to look at the advice *not* as what you *should* do but
*what* to shoot for and *how* to shoot for it *if* you want to be an
unschooler. (I don't think anyone here feels they've reached the goal. We
*all* need to keep working towards it.) If someone wants to modify the goal
for their own family, then they can pick and choose what sounds good to them
and reject the rest. But the pickers and choosers need to respect that their
needs getting to their goal shouldn't interfere with others getting to
unschooling.

When people sign onto the list they are in essence saying they want to
figure out how to get to that goal called unschooling. So *not* telling
people when they get off the path would not be helpful to them.

What we're doing is like dicussing vegetarianism. People who join the list
don't need to become vegetarians. They could pick and choose the advice and
modify it to eat less meat. But they need to respect that the list is for
people who *are* trying to do something very specific.

If someone says "Wait, I don't like that advice. That's too radical for my
needs because I don't like beans so I need you to help me incorporate ground
beef *not* tell me how to avoid it," or "I like vegetarianism but I worry
about getting enough protein so I always mix in some chicken to make sure I
get enough protein," then they're interfering with those who want to go the
whole way.

It's even more difficult for unschoolers. Society has filled us chock full
of fears. It is *very* easy to fall back on standard methods that ease those
fears. But finding ways to ease fears isn't what the list is about. It isn't
about finding our comfort zone on the path to unschooling. It isn't about
finding what works for our families. It's about finding out how to get from
where we are to where we want to go. For most people getting where they're
determined to go means spending a fair amount of time in a *discomfort*
zone.

The people who will get the most from this list are the ones who want to get
where the list is helping people get to. It would *not* be helpful to get on
a list headed for New York City if you want to go to Miami ;-) But if
someone wants one of the stops along the way or want the general direction,
the list can be useful. Then additional lists might help them with the
specifics of the place they want to stop at.

It could be this list isn't going to meet your needs. It *can't* expand to
be about what works for each family because then it would cease to be about
unschooling.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/03 12:31:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> But if this list (or any unschooling source) affirms the anecdotes of each
> person who shows up here and says "Sounds great!" to a ton of controlling
> rules and "Sounds great!" to actual experience unschoolers the same way,
> then
> those who are just coming by for a day or a week to see what they can pick
> up
> on the fly will have no idea what unschooling might be.

I totally agree. I guess I never knew "unschooling" the name was a badge of
honor. I think someone said that in a previous post. If they don't want to
"unschool" as it is truly know, and find this list too far out there and not
for them, why do such people think of it as a bad thing to call what they do
eclectic or relaxed or unit study or school at home and find a board that
supports that if that is what they truly want to do? Why do some want to
have the label "unschooler?"
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/03 12:54:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:

> >>The primary purpose of going to our weekly Park Day is
> for our children to have fun and enhance their relationships with each
> other, for which purpose we avoid parks that are well attended by other
> groups, nannies and preschools. Still I don't feel safe enough to "come
> out" as an unschooler. Since Jayn is three, I don't know how seriously I
> would be taken anyway. <<

I always keep that on my brain, that the reason I am here is that my boys
want to be here. They enjoy playing with other children of all ages. The
children don't talk about the curriculum they use.

I always bring my crocheting. They know I am an unschooler and therefore do
not ask me any questions about curriculum. They usually do talk about it at
every play day though. LOL. But they do find me the oddity, as we talked
about a week or so ago. And will ask me how I get me boys to learn, how do I
deal with math, what my day looks like. Not that they intend to go home and
try it but at each play day I have the opportunity to tell them how we do
things. I try not to seem preachy and just offer some short simple answers
without getting too deep into my philosophy. And I have noticed that a couple
of the mothers are leaning towards a more relaxed atmosphere. I just feel
good that I may be offering an alternative, so that some of the "school at
home" mothers might see that it doesn't necessarily have to be so structured.
There are in-betweens.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/03 12:54:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:

> >>. Recently
> one mother (new to the group) was speaking of the Zero Tolerance for
> hitting policy they have in their home. If their six yo son hits or
> punches he is sent straight to bed until tomorrow, "even if it is 10 in
> the morning." She was watching a rowdy boys' game unfolding, with great
> apprehension. How can I, as the mother of a 3yo girl, say, "I think your
> policy is well intentioned but dumb; what will it do to your son's
> ability to express his feelings and feel safe in his home?", even if
> that is how I feel. I would hardly blame her if she returned "Mind your
> own business!" She is likely to learn much more by watching the
> beautiful interactions between one mother of four boys and her
> expressive and intelligent sons, who are regulars at Park Day. <<

I wouldn't say that I agree with her policy and I wouldn't comment on it at
all. There is one mother in our group that spanks, I say one because only
one that I know of that is openly honest about it. She will tell her child
"get off that or it will be three swats tonight." I don't say anything to
her about her method of discipline because as of right now it is legal in
this country. But I do have opportunities to talk about what we do. They
are always asking me how I get the boys to behave so well and other questions
along that line and then I have the opportunity to explain how we work as a
family.

Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/03 9:07:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> >>If someone says "Wait, I don't like that advice. That's too radical for my
> needs because I don't like beans so I need you to help me incorporate
> ground
> beef *not* tell me how to avoid it," or "I like vegetarianism but I worry
> about getting enough protein so I always mix in some chicken to make sure I
> get enough protein," then they're interfering with those who want to go the
> whole way.<<
>
>
And these people shouldn't feel upset if they are told that if they want to
incorporate chicken then they are not vegetarians and they might want to look
for another list to help them incorporate chicken because the people on that
particular list do not know how to advise on chicken. And they shouldn't
call themselves vegetarian because they won't get the help they are looking
for.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/03 10:07:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, genant2@...
writes:


> such people think of it as a bad thing to call what they do
> eclectic or relaxed or unit study or school at home and find a board that
> supports that if that is what they truly want to do? Why do some want to
> have the label "unschooler?"
>

I can only speak for myself. I can just as easily call myself "eclectic"
or relaxed or whatever term may best fit my style of parenting and
homeschooling.. No one term is better or worse in my opinion. I wouldn't be
called a 'school at home" person, because, I don't do school at home. I've
said before, that I find labels restrictive and I dont feel I fit any one
'way" of doing things. It doesnt' offend me that folks here may say. OH
OH.. your not a REAL TRUE unschooler. Just like Im not offended if folks
say. OH, your not a real true Christian because I dont subscribe to their
fundamental beliefs 100% ( or heck, even 50%). I stay around this group
because its active, there are lots of GOOD advice here, and I have made some
friends. For unschooling information, ( which is what I look for, even if
I'm not "there" yet) this group has consistently been the best source I have
found. Thats why I hang around here. Folks can call me eclectic or relaxed
or "unschooling modified" LOL.. ( although, I dont INTEND to modify
unschooling in my home.. its just Im lower on the continum and still
learning).. I know Ive been called much worse :-)

Teresa




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

myfunny4 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], genant2@a... wrote:
> Why do some want to
> have the label "unschooler?"
> Pam G.

Hi Pam,
As a label-free homeschooler, I think I'm closer to unschooling than
anything else. I don't call myself any kind of homeschooler, and
when people press me for an answer, I just say we make it up as we go
along. So, I can see why some homeschoolers might call themselves
unschoolers, although according to the definition on Yahoo website
they haven't reached that nirvana yet.

Just a thought.

Debbie

Fetteroll

on 2/10/03 10:05 AM, genant2@... at genant2@... wrote:

> Why do some want to have the label "unschooler?"

I think because in some areas unschooling is used for what we'd call
eclectic and relaxed. Probably in heavy curriculum areas anyone not doing
curriculum looks like an "unschooler". So some homeschoolers self-identify
with the local use of the word unschooling. Then they come here and find a
bunch of people who tell them they aren't unschoolers.

Seems to me it would be like self-identifing yourself as Polish only to join
a Polish group who said you weren't really Polish because you didn't speak
the language or didn't have 3 Polish grandparents.

I'm sure the definition of unschooling here seems just as arbitrary as that
definition of Polish. In their minds who's to say we're right and the local
people using unschooling the way they understand it are wrong? Especially if
someone doesn't know that unschooling is a specific philosophy and not just
a general term that crept into the language to identify noncuriculum users.
Especially if homeschooling information comes by word of mouth and what
people can stumble across. I don't know how anyone homeschools without the
internet but they do.

Joyce

nmcvick <[email protected]>

Thank you, Sandra.

Some of us are raising various sorts of high-maintenance kids, and
they sometimes do need external structure because they aren't always
(and some of them never!) able to provide it for themselves. Some
kids need to be held and redirected in order to read an entire book
(or page). Some kids need lists of things to do to keep them from
obsessing on a single topic from waking to sleep. Some kids need to
be taught, step by step, year after year, how to make the simplest
decisions.

Anyone with an autistic child, for example, knows that radical
unschooling isn't an option.

I half-jokingly call us "Eclectic Semi-Unschoolers". Sure,
unschooling is a goal. But fact is, folks, that not all of us are
gonna get there.

Unschooling mail lists give me the willies. I've got them set
for "nomail", so I don't accidentially open some letter of
condemnation, where somebody gets trounced, politely or otherwise,
for not doing it "the right way". I'm sure I miss a lot of tips and
ideas that I might be able to incorporate into my family's ways of
living and learning. But some days I'm just too stressed to have any
tolerance toward the fanatical preachers of the Absolute Revealed
Truth of unschooling.

Guess what that does, folks? It loses more people than it converts.

Bright Blessings.
Nancy McVicker


--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> Some people Do quit drinking without AA's total abstinence.
>
> Some moms continue to breastfeed babies even though they supplement.
>
> Some people are going to unschool in ways other than the radical
abstaining
> and non-supplemented unschooling pushed on this list. <bwg>
>
> Sandra

Kelly

I can really relate to this email!!!

My 8 year old is autistic. Radical unschooling would not work for him either, especially in math. My son has no concept of numbers at all, at least not without some form of manipulative.

If anyone has seen the move Rain Man, they'd understand! Where Raymond is able to count how many toothpicks fell on the floor, but a candy bar is, "About a hundred dollars." That's my son. 8 means the same to him as 800.

Now, if he has 800 Lego blocks in front of him, and another pile with 8 Lego blocks, he can grasp the concept that it's bigger than the other and by how much.

So I do use Math-U-See with him.

Other than this program, we're unschooling. I prefer the term Electic or Child-Led Home Educator (LOL...fit THAT on T-Shirt!) because the term unschooling doesn't truly describe us.

Kelly

----- Original Message -----
From: nmcvick <nmcvick@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 11:21 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: J. Anderson essay at unschooling.com


Thank you, Sandra.

Some of us are raising various sorts of high-maintenance kids, and
they sometimes do need external structure because they aren't always
(and some of them never!) able to provide it for themselves. Some
kids need to be held and redirected in order to read an entire book
(or page). Some kids need lists of things to do to keep them from
obsessing on a single topic from waking to sleep. Some kids need to
be taught, step by step, year after year, how to make the simplest
decisions.

Anyone with an autistic child, for example, knows that radical
unschooling isn't an option.

I half-jokingly call us "Eclectic Semi-Unschoolers". Sure,
unschooling is a goal. But fact is, folks, that not all of us are
gonna get there.

Unschooling mail lists give me the willies. I've got them set
for "nomail", so I don't accidentially open some letter of
condemnation, where somebody gets trounced, politely or otherwise,
for not doing it "the right way". I'm sure I miss a lot of tips and
ideas that I might be able to incorporate into my family's ways of
living and learning. But some days I'm just too stressed to have any
tolerance toward the fanatical preachers of the Absolute Revealed
Truth of unschooling.

Guess what that does, folks? It loses more people than it converts.

Bright Blessings.
Nancy McVicker





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

myfunny4 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Kelly <apmomto4@c...>
wrote:
> Other than this program, we're unschooling. I prefer the term
Electic or Child-Led Home Educator (LOL...fit THAT on T-Shirt!)
because the term unschooling doesn't truly describe us.
>
> Kelly

Hi Kelly,
I understand the challenges to learning that children with autism
face; I have a 6-year old son with mental retardation and cerebral
palsy.

However, I wonder why you - and others - feel that you need a label
at all? I'm just curious <g>.

Debbie

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/11/03 4:48:57 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< ? Especially if
someone doesn't know that unschooling is a specific philosophy and not just
a general term that crept into the language to identify noncuriculum users. >>

I think it IS just a general term that identifies noncurriculum users.

I think what we're doing is "radical unschooling."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/11/03 9:22:30 AM, nmcvick@... writes:

<< Some
kids need to be held and redirected in order to read an entire book
(or page). >>

But I question whether they need to read an entire book or page.

<<Some kids need lists of things to do to keep them from
obsessing on a single topic from waking to sleep.>>

Some parents are sure their lists of things are more important than kids'
obsessions. I'm personally not that way.

<<Anyone with an autistic child, for example, knows that radical
unschooling isn't an option.>>

That may be, then, for that family it won't work. But if we let every
exception become a part of the definition, then there's not likely to be any
pure unschooling.

<< I'm sure I miss a lot of tips and
ideas that I might be able to incorporate into my family's ways of
living and learning. But some days I'm just too stressed to have any
tolerance toward the fanatical preachers of the Absolute Revealed
Truth of unschooling.>>

But the stress is in your life, not in our advice.

<<Guess what that does, folks? It loses more people than it converts. >>

It's not a church, and we're not passing the plate for the building fund, so
we're not after numbers. Anyone who doesn't want it or can't use it can
SURELY find other homeschooling advice.

My comment wasn't a recommendation that we tone down this list, but that we
acknowledge that other people other places are going to use the word
"unschooling" in ways we don't like and we can't stop them.

Sandra