[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/03 9:08:12 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:

<< Reading about real life experiences is what helped the most.

<<Because when someone said "unlimited" in reference to tv/food/bedtime etc...
my first response was "yeah, right!!"

<<But when reading how it actually worked in their families, a lightbulb went
on, and I thought "We can DO this." >>

Occasionally (like this week, most recently!) I feel really uncomfortable
with the speed at which people are introduced to the most radical vision of
living respectfully with their children--that combination of unschooling and
its extended effects, which doesn't really have an overall name that I know
of. Attachment parenting with teens? <g>

I lucked out, because we had the food freedoms and the bedtime freedoms and
the TV freedoms before we knew we were going to homeschool. So for us, it
was hugely simple to believe that a five year old boy who obviously ate good
food and went to sleep every single night and was learning tons from watching
videos, cartoons, tv, learning lots from playing Nintendo and working to
decipher that player's guide would DEFINITELY be able to figure out where the
continents were and what mammals had in common and how to count by fives.

So for me, because I started with attachment parenting and the idea that each
of my children was the same man (at the time I only had boys) he would be as
an adult, just in his baby form, and that what we were doing NOW was
affecting the man he would be, unschooling was easy.

But if someone with older kids and some panic to deal with (people rarely
come to unschooling on a totally calm day with lots of time and patience to
work into it gradually) is shown the ideal biggest picture all at once, it
can be overwhelming and seem like a load of insanity.

On the other hand, if we were to design a gradual method somehow, with intro
to unschooling being playing with kids and level II being watching movies
with them and level III being letting them pick the movies and the stuff
about food not being until level IX or XII or something, we're building a
school curriculum.

I don't want people to be frustrated because we're not being methodical, but
being methodical about something which isn't about method so much as it is
about changing one's perspectives seems wrong. And being methodical about
something which ultimately leads to the idea that children don't have to
learn methodically is not going to lead to that point very easily at all.

It's okay if kids learn fractions before they can count to ten.
It's okay if a kid watches Shakespeare videos before he knows Tigger from
Eeyore.

How does that translate to 'getting unschooling' for the parents though?

I'm not sure.

It's okay if parents leave all their house rules in place and JUST loosen the
"learning" rules and expectations. "Okay" means they're still unschoolers.

There have been a few vocal people over the past eleven years who have
totally balked at any suggestion that unschooling is a way of being. They
say no, it's a way of homeschooling. You do it for what the kids have to
learn from the state, and you don't have to look at or change any other part
of your life.

I suppose that could be so. If a state doesn't require music or art, the
unschooling parent could just not care, take note of music and art activity.
"It doesn't count."

But from my point of view and from my experience, if art and music lead a kid
conversation to Italy, and they make this connection at 10:30 at night, my
choice is to say "Go to sleep" or to get excited with them, and tell them the
Ninja Turtles were named after Renaissance artists, and that all the musical
terminology we use, and most of early opera, came from Italy. That maybe the
Roman Empire died, but Rome was not through being a center for advanced
thought. Or however much of that a child cares about. And some of that will
work better with an art book out, and maybe a map of the world. Look! Italy
looks like a boot for sure, and look how close it is to Greece, and to the
Middle East. Look who their neighbors are to the north and west, and how
much seacoast they have. Look at their boats.

Maybe the child is seven, though, and Italy isn't on the state's radar before
8th grade geography.

So I don't look at the state's requirements. I look at my child's
opportunities. And I think the moment that the light is on in his eyes and
he CARES about this tiny bit of history he has just put together, that he
wants me to say "YES, isn't that cool? I was much older when I figured this
out. You're lucky to have great thoughts late at night."

And if he goes to sleep thinking of a camera obscura or the Vatican or
gondoliers or a young teenaged Mozart seeing Italy with his dad, meeting
people who thought they would remain more famous than Mozart... I think
back to the circumstances of my own bedtimes as a child and I WANT to fill
him with pictures and ideas and happy connections before they go to sleep, if
that's what he seems to want. I could be trying to go to sleep and being
grouchy and he could be in another room trying to go to sleep and being sad,
or we can go on idea-journeys and both go to sleep happy.

This doesn't happen every night. It doesn't happen every week. But it has
happened enough times that I look forward to it happening the next time, and
it will. It will because it can.

But it can't in another family unless, for them, the learning has a higher
priority than the bedtime.

And when we're talking priorities instead of rules and methodology, we're
talking about what is internal to the parents. What they believe.

Sandra

Have a Nice Day!

All I can say is "wow".

I've been reading the posts from Sandra and Joyce, and they are very inspiring and make things much more clear about just what unschooling is, what it means, and what its not.

kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] New kid freedoms (a long ramble)



In a message dated 1/31/03 9:08:12 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:

<< Reading about real life experiences is what helped the most.

<<Because when someone said "unlimited" in reference to tv/food/bedtime etc...
my first response was "yeah, right!!"

<<But when reading how it actually worked in their families, a lightbulb went
on, and I thought "We can DO this." >>

Occasionally (like this week, most recently!) I feel really uncomfortable
with the speed at which people are introduced to the most radical vision of
living respectfully with their children--that combination of unschooling and
its extended effects, which doesn't really have an overall name that I know
of. Attachment parenting with teens? <g>

I lucked out, because we had the food freedoms and the bedtime freedoms and
the TV freedoms before we knew we were going to homeschool. So for us, it
was hugely simple to believe that a five year old boy who obviously ate good
food and went to sleep every single night and was learning tons from watching
videos, cartoons, tv, learning lots from playing Nintendo and working to
decipher that player's guide would DEFINITELY be able to figure out where the
continents were and what mammals had in common and how to count by fives.

So for me, because I started with attachment parenting and the idea that each
of my children was the same man (at the time I only had boys) he would be as
an adult, just in his baby form, and that what we were doing NOW was
affecting the man he would be, unschooling was easy.

But if someone with older kids and some panic to deal with (people rarely
come to unschooling on a totally calm day with lots of time and patience to
work into it gradually) is shown the ideal biggest picture all at once, it
can be overwhelming and seem like a load of insanity.

On the other hand, if we were to design a gradual method somehow, with intro
to unschooling being playing with kids and level II being watching movies
with them and level III being letting them pick the movies and the stuff
about food not being until level IX or XII or something, we're building a
school curriculum.

I don't want people to be frustrated because we're not being methodical, but
being methodical about something which isn't about method so much as it is
about changing one's perspectives seems wrong. And being methodical about
something which ultimately leads to the idea that children don't have to
learn methodically is not going to lead to that point very easily at all.

It's okay if kids learn fractions before they can count to ten.
It's okay if a kid watches Shakespeare videos before he knows Tigger from
Eeyore.

How does that translate to 'getting unschooling' for the parents though?

I'm not sure.

It's okay if parents leave all their house rules in place and JUST loosen the
"learning" rules and expectations. "Okay" means they're still unschoolers.

There have been a few vocal people over the past eleven years who have
totally balked at any suggestion that unschooling is a way of being. They
say no, it's a way of homeschooling. You do it for what the kids have to
learn from the state, and you don't have to look at or change any other part
of your life.

I suppose that could be so. If a state doesn't require music or art, the
unschooling parent could just not care, take note of music and art activity.
"It doesn't count."

But from my point of view and from my experience, if art and music lead a kid
conversation to Italy, and they make this connection at 10:30 at night, my
choice is to say "Go to sleep" or to get excited with them, and tell them the
Ninja Turtles were named after Renaissance artists, and that all the musical
terminology we use, and most of early opera, came from Italy. That maybe the
Roman Empire died, but Rome was not through being a center for advanced
thought. Or however much of that a child cares about. And some of that will
work better with an art book out, and maybe a map of the world. Look! Italy
looks like a boot for sure, and look how close it is to Greece, and to the
Middle East. Look who their neighbors are to the north and west, and how
much seacoast they have. Look at their boats.

Maybe the child is seven, though, and Italy isn't on the state's radar before
8th grade geography.

So I don't look at the state's requirements. I look at my child's
opportunities. And I think the moment that the light is on in his eyes and
he CARES about this tiny bit of history he has just put together, that he
wants me to say "YES, isn't that cool? I was much older when I figured this
out. You're lucky to have great thoughts late at night."

And if he goes to sleep thinking of a camera obscura or the Vatican or
gondoliers or a young teenaged Mozart seeing Italy with his dad, meeting
people who thought they would remain more famous than Mozart... I think
back to the circumstances of my own bedtimes as a child and I WANT to fill
him with pictures and ideas and happy connections before they go to sleep, if
that's what he seems to want. I could be trying to go to sleep and being
grouchy and he could be in another room trying to go to sleep and being sad,
or we can go on idea-journeys and both go to sleep happy.

This doesn't happen every night. It doesn't happen every week. But it has
happened enough times that I look forward to it happening the next time, and
it will. It will because it can.

But it can't in another family unless, for them, the learning has a higher
priority than the bedtime.

And when we're talking priorities instead of rules and methodology, we're
talking about what is internal to the parents. What they believe.

Sandra









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim Selvage

Sandra,
But from my point of view and from my experience, if art and music lead a
kid
> conversation to Italy, and they make this connection at 10:30 at night, my
> choice is to say "Go to sleep" or to get excited with them, and tell them
the
> Ninja Turtles were named after Renaissance artists, and that all the
musical
> terminology we use, and most of early opera, came from Italy. That maybe
the
> Roman Empire died, but Rome was not through being a center for advanced
> thought. Or however much of that a child cares about. And some of that
will
> work better with an art book out, and maybe a map of the world. Look!
Italy
> looks like a boot for sure, and look how close it is to Greece, and to the
> Middle East. Look who their neighbors are to the north and west, and how
> much seacoast they have. Look at their boats.
>
> Maybe the child is seven, though, and Italy isn't on the state's radar
before
> 8th grade geography.
>
> So I don't look at the state's requirements. I look at my child's
> opportunities. And I think the moment that the light is on in his eyes
and
> he CARES about this tiny bit of history he has just put together, that he
> wants me to say "YES, isn't that cool? I was much older when I figured
this
> out. You're lucky to have great thoughts late at night."
>
> And if he goes to sleep thinking of a camera obscura or the Vatican or
> gondoliers or a young teenaged Mozart seeing Italy with his dad, meeting
> people who thought they would remain more famous than Mozart... I think
> back to the circumstances of my own bedtimes as a child and I WANT to fill
> him with pictures and ideas and happy connections before they go to sleep,
if
> that's what he seems to want. I could be trying to go to sleep and being
> grouchy and he could be in another room trying to go to sleep and being
sad,
> or we can go on idea-journeys and both go to sleep happy.
>

That was a great post! I was smiling and "seeing" the light in your son's
eyes! Great word pictures, thanks!

blessings,
erin