New kid freedoms
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/31/03 9:12:45 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< That's why I use a lot of "what if your husband did that to you?"
examples. >>
This was one of the most helpful bits ever as I was shifting my thinking.
I still have to run what I do through the "what if it were my dh" filter. It
helps me see if I'm really being respectful, or just reverting to old
behavior.
It's a conscious choice though, something I struggle with (and don't always
do well at) because of old training.
I was up on "posisitve parenting" techniques and such, but this was beyond
that!!
What you guys were talking about made all of the good things I had learned
about gentle parenting doable. I struggled and struggled for years with the
parenting books I read, not able to overcome my temper for the most part. And
they were still focused on getting kids to do certain things.
Once I let go of the idea of chores and such, I was finally able to start
changing the way I interacted with my children.
Reading about real life experiences is what helped the most.
Because when someone said "unlimited" in reference to tv/food/bedtime etc...
my first response was "yeah, right!!"
But when reading how it actually worked in their families, a lightbulb went
on, and I thought "We can DO this."
It took struggles and transitions are never easy, but we're somewhere good
now.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson
Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< That's why I use a lot of "what if your husband did that to you?"
examples. >>
This was one of the most helpful bits ever as I was shifting my thinking.
I still have to run what I do through the "what if it were my dh" filter. It
helps me see if I'm really being respectful, or just reverting to old
behavior.
It's a conscious choice though, something I struggle with (and don't always
do well at) because of old training.
I was up on "posisitve parenting" techniques and such, but this was beyond
that!!
What you guys were talking about made all of the good things I had learned
about gentle parenting doable. I struggled and struggled for years with the
parenting books I read, not able to overcome my temper for the most part. And
they were still focused on getting kids to do certain things.
Once I let go of the idea of chores and such, I was finally able to start
changing the way I interacted with my children.
Reading about real life experiences is what helped the most.
Because when someone said "unlimited" in reference to tv/food/bedtime etc...
my first response was "yeah, right!!"
But when reading how it actually worked in their families, a lightbulb went
on, and I thought "We can DO this."
It took struggles and transitions are never easy, but we're somewhere good
now.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson
Burnett
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/31/03 9:12:45 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Why is it when I try
to convey my thoughts, questions, concerns, its percieved as grumpy or
angry? >>
Because you accuse people of writing condescendingly, sarcastic and rude when
that is not the case at all.
It's simply how it was perceived due to a lack of understanding. Not what the
writer was trying to do.
When you label someones writing as being those things, that is an attack on a
persons writing style and brand of advice.
No one called anyone names or wrote anything that was actually condescending
in my opinion...it's just very, very difficult to have your parenting
examined and dissected.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson
Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< Why is it when I try
to convey my thoughts, questions, concerns, its percieved as grumpy or
angry? >>
Because you accuse people of writing condescendingly, sarcastic and rude when
that is not the case at all.
It's simply how it was perceived due to a lack of understanding. Not what the
writer was trying to do.
When you label someones writing as being those things, that is an attack on a
persons writing style and brand of advice.
No one called anyone names or wrote anything that was actually condescending
in my opinion...it's just very, very difficult to have your parenting
examined and dissected.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson
Burnett
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/31/03 11:10:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
to past posts that cover 2 months of stuff is open for personal
interpretation. You know, several folks have told me to go back and read
how "difficult" you were before you got it .. you've said yourself that it
was a struggle.. but once you're "there" you sure do forget easily how you
"got there"
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Because you accuse people of writing condescendingly, sarcastic and rudeI do NOT want to get into another arguement. All of the above, in reference
> when
> that is not the case at all.
> It's simply how it was perceived due to a lack of understanding. Not what
> the
> writer was trying to do.
> When you label someones writing as being those things, that is an attack on
> a
> persons writing style and brand of advice.
> No one called anyone names or wrote anything that was actually
> condescending
> in my opinion...it's just very, very difficult to have your parenting
> examined and dissected.
>
>
> Ren
>
to past posts that cover 2 months of stuff is open for personal
interpretation. You know, several folks have told me to go back and read
how "difficult" you were before you got it .. you've said yourself that it
was a struggle.. but once you're "there" you sure do forget easily how you
"got there"
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-=-Once upon a time a confident and experienced scholar went to the best Zen
teacher he knew, to apply to be his student. The master offered tea, and he
held out his cup. While the student recited his knowledge and cataloged his
accomplishments to date, the master poured slowly. The bragging continued,
and the pouring continued, until the student was getting a lapful of tea, and
said, “My cup is full!” The master smiled and said, “Yes, it is. And until
you empty yourself of what you think you know, you won’t be able to learn.”
-=-Weird Al says it a different way in “Everything You Know is Wrong,” and
Christians say “You must surrender yourself.” Before that Jesus said,
“Unless you become as a little child…”
-=-What it means in homeschooling terms is that as long as you think you can
control and add to what you already know, it will be hard to come to
unschooling. The more quickly you empty your cup and open yourself to new
ideas uncritically, the sooner you will see natural learning blossom. -=-
------------------------------------
-=-I do NOT want to get into another arguement. All of the above[not what's
above in this e-mail, but Ren's post, quoted elsewhere], in reference
to past posts that cover 2 months of stuff is open for personal
interpretation. You know, several folks have told me to go back and read
how "difficult" you were before you got it .. you've said yourself that it
was a struggle.. but once you're "there" you sure do forget easily how you
"got there"-=-
The tone of this is confrontational and impatient and critical.
Teresa, unless you can be still and read and think instead of being noisy and
defensive and troublesome, you won't be learning. You'll be preventing
others from learning too. "You know..." and "You sure do forget..." need to
be replaced with quiet. And your attentions need to be more on your
children than on this list, or on me. You're looking the wrong way and
you're making a wall of defensive noise.
Unschooling.com is currently one of the best "teachers" of unschooling on
earth. Dozens of people who have been unschooling longer than two months
will answer any questions you care to ask. Or you could read all of John Holt
alone at home. That's what many of us had to do, pre-internet. There are
other places where people will discuss unschooling with you too. Right now,
though, there is more information at unschooling.com than any one unschooling
parent could have found about unschooling in the whole world put together ten
years ago.
-=--=-Once upon a time a confident and experienced scholar went to the best
Zen teacher he knew, to apply to be his student. The master offered tea, and
he held out his cup. While the student recited his knowledge and cataloged
his accomplishments to date, the master poured slowly. The bragging
continued, and the pouring continued, until the student was getting a lapful
of tea, and said, “My cup is full!” The master smiled and said, “Yes, it is.
And until you empty yourself of what you think you know, you won’t be able to
learn.” -=-
The rest of that one essay is at
sandradodd.com/deschooling
if you want to empty your cup for just a minute and start to learn.
The rest of the teachers you might want to listen to are right on this list.
Sandra
P.S. It might be that unschooling won't work at your house, because your
husband or your kids aren't interested, or because you will decide you don't
really believe in it. That's okay. Your family is more important than this
is. If that turns out to be the case, it will be because of you and your
husband and your family and your priorities, not because of the tone of this
list.
teacher he knew, to apply to be his student. The master offered tea, and he
held out his cup. While the student recited his knowledge and cataloged his
accomplishments to date, the master poured slowly. The bragging continued,
and the pouring continued, until the student was getting a lapful of tea, and
said, “My cup is full!” The master smiled and said, “Yes, it is. And until
you empty yourself of what you think you know, you won’t be able to learn.”
-=-Weird Al says it a different way in “Everything You Know is Wrong,” and
Christians say “You must surrender yourself.” Before that Jesus said,
“Unless you become as a little child…”
-=-What it means in homeschooling terms is that as long as you think you can
control and add to what you already know, it will be hard to come to
unschooling. The more quickly you empty your cup and open yourself to new
ideas uncritically, the sooner you will see natural learning blossom. -=-
------------------------------------
-=-I do NOT want to get into another arguement. All of the above[not what's
above in this e-mail, but Ren's post, quoted elsewhere], in reference
to past posts that cover 2 months of stuff is open for personal
interpretation. You know, several folks have told me to go back and read
how "difficult" you were before you got it .. you've said yourself that it
was a struggle.. but once you're "there" you sure do forget easily how you
"got there"-=-
The tone of this is confrontational and impatient and critical.
Teresa, unless you can be still and read and think instead of being noisy and
defensive and troublesome, you won't be learning. You'll be preventing
others from learning too. "You know..." and "You sure do forget..." need to
be replaced with quiet. And your attentions need to be more on your
children than on this list, or on me. You're looking the wrong way and
you're making a wall of defensive noise.
Unschooling.com is currently one of the best "teachers" of unschooling on
earth. Dozens of people who have been unschooling longer than two months
will answer any questions you care to ask. Or you could read all of John Holt
alone at home. That's what many of us had to do, pre-internet. There are
other places where people will discuss unschooling with you too. Right now,
though, there is more information at unschooling.com than any one unschooling
parent could have found about unschooling in the whole world put together ten
years ago.
-=--=-Once upon a time a confident and experienced scholar went to the best
Zen teacher he knew, to apply to be his student. The master offered tea, and
he held out his cup. While the student recited his knowledge and cataloged
his accomplishments to date, the master poured slowly. The bragging
continued, and the pouring continued, until the student was getting a lapful
of tea, and said, “My cup is full!” The master smiled and said, “Yes, it is.
And until you empty yourself of what you think you know, you won’t be able to
learn.” -=-
The rest of that one essay is at
sandradodd.com/deschooling
if you want to empty your cup for just a minute and start to learn.
The rest of the teachers you might want to listen to are right on this list.
Sandra
P.S. It might be that unschooling won't work at your house, because your
husband or your kids aren't interested, or because you will decide you don't
really believe in it. That's okay. Your family is more important than this
is. If that turns out to be the case, it will be because of you and your
husband and your family and your priorities, not because of the tone of this
list.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/31/03 11:08:45 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< You know, several folks have told me to go back and read
how "difficult" you were before you got it . >>
Actually, no one ever accused me of being "difficult".
I never accused anyone of being condescending to me, or rude or sarcastic
just because I was being examined.
My beliefs were dissected, yes. But I didn't respond with putting down the
people that were dissecting my beliefs.
I argued my side of the belief . And then I examined it and realized it came
up short.
And my position was usually "I don't think that could work for MY kids."
That's different than accusing someone of being rude just because they are
asking very probing questions and saying that your belief isn't necessarily
true.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson
Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< You know, several folks have told me to go back and read
how "difficult" you were before you got it . >>
Actually, no one ever accused me of being "difficult".
I never accused anyone of being condescending to me, or rude or sarcastic
just because I was being examined.
My beliefs were dissected, yes. But I didn't respond with putting down the
people that were dissecting my beliefs.
I argued my side of the belief . And then I examined it and realized it came
up short.
And my position was usually "I don't think that could work for MY kids."
That's different than accusing someone of being rude just because they are
asking very probing questions and saying that your belief isn't necessarily
true.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson
Burnett
Pam Hartley
----------
We know the alternatives -- we know all about
clean-your-plate-and-you're-grounded-mister-and-no-you-can't-play-with-Johnn
y-your-room's-a-MESS parenting.
Are any of us really going to do that to our children, in the name of making
other people comfortable to wallow where they are?
I think more parents are capable of what we do than do it. If we can make
some of the waverers uncomfortable enough to question themselves into
treating their kids better, I think it's a very good idea.
There is an argument I know you've heard, against homeschooling at all, that
goes: if all the GOOD parents take their children out of school, who will be
left to fight for the schools?
I'm sorry for the schools and the kids in them, but that doesn't make it my
responsibility to sacrifice my own children on that altar. I'm sorry for
children who get grounded and spanked and shamed, but that doesn't make me
any more likely to think it's a good idea to do the same to my own.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Sure we are. And the alternative is...?
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2975
>Date: Fri, Jan 31, 2003, 4:48 PM
>
> I don't think this will work with every one. I don't think every parent is
> capable of doing it. Does that mean that out of "fairness" none of us
> should?
>
> That's a serious question, not just rhetorical. Are we being elitist on
> beyond posh private schools to give our kids freedom and peace at home?
We know the alternatives -- we know all about
clean-your-plate-and-you're-grounded-mister-and-no-you-can't-play-with-Johnn
y-your-room's-a-MESS parenting.
Are any of us really going to do that to our children, in the name of making
other people comfortable to wallow where they are?
I think more parents are capable of what we do than do it. If we can make
some of the waverers uncomfortable enough to question themselves into
treating their kids better, I think it's a very good idea.
There is an argument I know you've heard, against homeschooling at all, that
goes: if all the GOOD parents take their children out of school, who will be
left to fight for the schools?
I'm sorry for the schools and the kids in them, but that doesn't make it my
responsibility to sacrifice my own children on that altar. I'm sorry for
children who get grounded and spanked and shamed, but that doesn't make me
any more likely to think it's a good idea to do the same to my own.
Pam
ed hodgins
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:04 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: New kid freedoms
>
>
> ----------
> >From: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2975
> >Date: Fri, Jan 31, 2003, 4:48 PM
> >
>
> > I don't think this will work with every one. I don't think every parent
is
> > capable of doing it. Does that mean that out of "fairness" none of us
> > should?
> >
> > That's a serious question, not just rhetorical. Are we being elitist on
> > beyond posh private schools to give our kids freedom and peace at home?
>
>
> Sure we are. And the alternative is...?
>
> We know the alternatives -- we know all about
>
clean-your-plate-and-you're-grounded-mister-and-no-you-can't-play-with-Johnn
> y-your-room's-a-MESS parenting.
>
> Are any of us really going to do that to our children, in the name of
making
> other people comfortable to wallow where they are?
>
> I think more parents are capable of what we do than do it. If we can make
> some of the waverers uncomfortable enough to question themselves into
> treating their kids better, I think it's a very good idea.
>
> There is an argument I know you've heard, against homeschooling at all,
that
> goes: if all the GOOD parents take their children out of school, who will
be
> left to fight for the schools?
>
> I'm sorry for the schools and the kids in them, but that doesn't make it
my
> responsibility to sacrifice my own children on that altar. I'm sorry for
> children who get grounded and spanked and shamed, but that doesn't make me
> any more likely to think it's a good idea to do the same to my own.
>
> Pam
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> I like your comments. Straight and to the point. Your children are whats
most important .Let non of us forget it.
Have a Nice Day!
Well said.
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Pam Hartley
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:04 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: New kid freedoms
----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2975
>Date: Fri, Jan 31, 2003, 4:48 PM
>
> I don't think this will work with every one. I don't think every parent is
> capable of doing it. Does that mean that out of "fairness" none of us
> should?
>
> That's a serious question, not just rhetorical. Are we being elitist on
> beyond posh private schools to give our kids freedom and peace at home?
Sure we are. And the alternative is...?
We know the alternatives -- we know all about
clean-your-plate-and-you're-grounded-mister-and-no-you-can't-play-with-Johnn
y-your-room's-a-MESS parenting.
Are any of us really going to do that to our children, in the name of making
other people comfortable to wallow where they are?
I think more parents are capable of what we do than do it. If we can make
some of the waverers uncomfortable enough to question themselves into
treating their kids better, I think it's a very good idea.
There is an argument I know you've heard, against homeschooling at all, that
goes: if all the GOOD parents take their children out of school, who will be
left to fight for the schools?
I'm sorry for the schools and the kids in them, but that doesn't make it my
responsibility to sacrifice my own children on that altar. I'm sorry for
children who get grounded and spanked and shamed, but that doesn't make me
any more likely to think it's a good idea to do the same to my own.
Pam
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/03 2:30:45 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< From that little grain of a start, understanding that one loves Lego and
silence while another loves books and soft cushions and the third loves loud
music and roller blades, we wonder maybe whether it's okay if one doesn't
like vegetarian food, or one wants to feng-shui-ify the rec room. And from
there it just all unravels into a whole new world of respect for each child
as the full human he has always been, instead of the kid we sometimes
imagine
we built and own. >>
This is a keeper. Thank you.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett
[email protected] writes:
<< From that little grain of a start, understanding that one loves Lego and
silence while another loves books and soft cushions and the third loves loud
music and roller blades, we wonder maybe whether it's okay if one doesn't
like vegetarian food, or one wants to feng-shui-ify the rec room. And from
there it just all unravels into a whole new world of respect for each child
as the full human he has always been, instead of the kid we sometimes
imagine
we built and own. >>
This is a keeper. Thank you.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson Burnett