[email protected]

On the topic of how our husbands affect our unschooling lifestyle.. My
husband sent me this email this morning.. This has been an ongoing problem
for almost 3 mos. He has to get up at 5am to drive an hour and half to work

_____
I wish we could get the kids to gradually shift toward getting to sleep
earlier and getting up earlier. Really, after 10:00 at night - there's not
really all that much reason for kids to be up. There's nothing by crap on TV
- and what is on TV isn't for children, anyway. The only stimulation the get
is from themselves, or from us - to keep them going and staying up. I suppose
I should just make a rule that they have to turn off the games, TV's, etc.
and go to bed at 10:00. I can let them quiet down on their own - but if every
night, for an hour or 1 1/2 hours - I have to keep calling them down...then
eventually turn off games, or TV, then still have to call them down - then it
just doesn't work for me.
 
I guess somehow - I got this idea in my head a long time ago - that in the
evening - the kids would go to bed and go to sleep - and the parents could
have a little time to relax, watch TV, talk, etc. But, that just never
happens.
_____

Recently, after talking about this situation with Kelly, we started asking
them to quiet down so Dad could go to sleep. Well, they dont.. I have had
MANY calm, rational talks with them along the lines of. You can stay up til
you get sleepy. But you need to stay quiet. Use a lower voice, turn the TV
down. Please dont come in our rooom unless it is an emergency. Daddy gets
up and goes to work very early because he loves us. He provides for
everything we have. If Daddy didnt work, you couldnt have XBOX and N64 and
tons of movies. Daddy is very tired if he doesnt get enought sleep. I have
offered suggestions.. Go downstairs and "play" Either they dont want to, or
they run up and down the stairs and still continue to make noise. Aside
from the calm discussions ( which they all agree to and understand) I have
turned on the bitch attitude.. OK, thats IT.. Turn off the TV. get in bed.
NOW. this is enough... Or Dh has done the same thing.. Actually, thats what
it has eventually turned into every night.. About 3 or 4 "warnings" not
really warnings, but.. getting up out of bed, going to their room and asking
them to please quiet down. . or break up a fight or ask them to turn the TV
down. Then finally, laying down the law and turning the stuff off and the
lights out.. Then they go to sleep in about 15-20 mins.. Still, its a couple
hours after Dh NEEDS to be asleep.. And also NO "private" time for us. ..
So, what to do? This is not something that can just "work" its self out.
Its already been almost 3 mos of sleep deprivation for him. We dont have
months for them to self regulate or learn new principles. We have ran out
of creative options. The only option left is .. what?? for my husband to
sleep out in the garage?? pitch the tent in the yard?? Get his own place
nearer his work? ( not feasible, anyway) This is a real problem.. I DO
want advice and suggestions.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi <[email protected]>

Hi Teresa

We have a "night owl" among us, our Katie. So, we've always said,
from the beginning "You may stay up as late as you want, in your
room." some nights, she must be up and active, because we find her
asleep the next morning in a nest next to the bed, or in a big box.
Or, with a pile of books, stuffed toys, and a radio all lined up nice
and neat along the wall-side of the bed. But she does all this
quietly, in her own space.

We also were able to "adjust" her inner clock a little bit, when we
went through a phase of getting the house moving by 7:30 am. I still
go down and give everyone's bed a little shake at that time, and by
8:30 ish, the kids are up and getting something to eat, most days.
This meant Katie, having gotten up so durn early, was tired by 10:00
at the latest and fell asleep easier, most nights.

I'm not saying you have to stir your brood that early. That's ungodly
to lots of people...heck, by 7:30 I've already been up for an hour
and a half...but rattling them a bit earlier in the morning, for
several days in a row...that might just turn their clocks back a bit.

hope you figure something out.

peace, Heidi

--- In [email protected], grlynbl@a... wrote:
> On the topic of how our husbands affect our unschooling lifestyle..
My
> husband sent me this email this morning.. This has been an ongoing
problem
> for almost 3 mos. He has to get up at 5am to drive an hour and
half to work
>
> _____
> I wish we could get the kids to gradually shift toward getting to
sleep
> earlier and getting up earlier.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 7:15:55 AM, grlynbl@... writes:

<< We dont have

months for them to self regulate or learn new principles. We have ran out

of creative options. The only option left is .. what?? for my husband to

sleep out in the garage?? pitch the tent in the yard?? Get his own place

nearer his work? ( not feasible, anyway) This is a real problem.. I DO

want advice and suggestions. >>

Just tell them you need them to go to bed by ten, that maybe when they're
older and able to be quiet you can extend it.

Sandra

Betsy

**I have
offered suggestions.. Go downstairs and "play" Either they dont want
to, or
they run up and down the stairs and still continue to make noise.
Aside
from the calm discussions ( which they all agree to and understand) I
have
turned on the bitch attitude.. OK, thats IT.. Turn off the TV. get in
bed.
NOW. this is enough... Or Dh has done the same thing.. Actually, thats
what
it has eventually turned into every night.. About 3 or 4 "warnings" not
really warnings, but.. getting up out of bed, going to their room and
asking
them to please quiet down. . or break up a fight or ask them to turn the
TV
down. Then finally, laying down the law and turning the stuff off and
the
lights out.. Then they go to sleep in about 15-20 mins.. Still, its a
couple
hours after Dh NEEDS to be asleep.. And also NO "private" time for us.
..
So, what to do? **

Hi, Teresa --

I sympathize, I really do. My husband is a pretty fragile sleeper who
can't get back to sleep if he's interrupted, and can't manage to sleep
past 6am, no matter what time he goes to sleep. My son and I do a lot
of tiptoeing. (But one kid just can't make as much noise as two, so I
have an easier situation.)

Yesterday dh got off work early and fell asleep on the couch in the
afternoon. I couldn't even go online while he was napping, as my modem
makes a loud screechy noise and is in earshot of the couch. (Your post
reminded me that I could turn down the sound on my computer, so I did that.)

When I travel, I sleep with ear plugs, as motel noises will wake me ten
or more times a night if I don't. I also have an air purifier in my
room that makes about the same "white noise" as a fan. I run that every
night. I'll turn that on even if I'm just reading in my bedroom to
block out the interrupting sounds.

For your boys, I'd be tempted to forbid them access to the stairs unless
they are tiptoeing up to bed (or to reach you in an actual emergency).
I'd put a gate or a banner across the bottom of the stairs as a physical reminder.

For quality romantic time with your spouse, if you can't make the switch
to love in the morning when your dh wakes up (not my favorite), then
lock the door and maybe play some kind of loud, makeout music on the
stereo so that not too many sounds go through the door either from
outside or from inside.

I think I'm going to take my kid to the park today so he's not bouncing
off the walls tonight.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 12:11:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> Just tell them you need them to go to bed by ten, that maybe when they're
> older and able to be quiet you can extend it.
>
> Sandra
>

Well, thats what we did "before" when they were in school. Their bedtime
was 10:00 pm .. not like 'set in stone".. but a good target to work towards..
And of course, getting up at 7 am, they were tired by 10.. And, this IS
what my husband is leaning towards again.. Landon stays up til..???? I have
no idea how late.. He does get off the computer ( which is in our room) by
10pm.. or so.. as soon as he can wrap stuff up.. But he stays up watching
TV, talking on the phone, reading, heck, whatever.. He still gets up to go to
school, but he will take a nap in the afternoon if he is tired. The other
3.. Anna has her own room, but she perfers to sleep with Ethan and JP.. She
feels lonely downstairs by herself. Landons br is downstairs too, but he
stays in his room. JP sleeps with us sometimes.. either with us or Anna,
he does not like to sleep alone either. I guess with all 3 of them in
there together with the TV, VCR XBOX, its just like a party and the cant
settle down without some "limits" I talked to Anna today about sleeping in
her own room.. She is the "least" loud one.. she feels like she is reaping
the consequences of the boys actions ( and, really, she is).. She says she IS
quiet, and also, they keep her awake too. she would be asleep sooner if they
didnt make so much noise. She still didnt want to sleep in her room. She
said she'd rather have us to "make" them turn the stuff off and settle down
at 10 than sleep in her room alone. I guess this will be what we have to
do.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/30/03 7:15:55 AM, grlynbl@a... writes:
>
> << We dont have
>
> months for them to self regulate or learn new principles. We have
ran out
>
> of creative options. The only option left is .. what?? for my
husband to
>
> sleep out in the garage?? pitch the tent in the yard?? Get his own
place
>
> nearer his work? ( not feasible, anyway) This is a real
problem.. I DO
>
> want advice and suggestions. >>
>
> Just tell them you need them to go to bed by ten, that maybe when
they're
> older and able to be quiet you can extend it.
>
> Sandra

This piece of advice coming from you shocks me, Sandra! lol I would
have expected you to say that she just needed to talk to them more
and be more patient, or that he should find a sound-proof door for
his room, or something! lol

How is the piece of advice not a punishment or shaming them for not
being able to control themselves? "You have been given many chances
to keep quiet after your dad went to bed and you continually blew it,
so now I'm going to insist on an arbitrary bedtime". Isn't this
authoritarian? (And I'm genuinely asking, not picking a fight)


Kind of along these lines, I lost it with my kids this morning. I've
been feeling edgy for the last few days because of their behavior and
continuous refusal to help me do much of anything, and this morning I
just felt like I didn't even want to get out of bed and deal with
them.

Our plans were to do some running around today. We were going to go
out to eat at Duncan Donuts, stop at the pet store, the library, and
Wal-mart. All of these things were places that at least one of the
kids wanted to go to for some project or another. They all had been
asking for donuts, and this was a good day to go. They were
fighting, and one of them wouldn't get his socks on. He said that he
wouldn't, that he wanted me to get them and put them on for him. He
is 5 1/2 years old and more than capable of getting his own socks
on. That pushed me over the edge, and I asked my daughter (with a
definite edge in my voice) if she would please get her brother some
socks to wear since he refuses to cooperate with the rest of the
family. She did, and I gave them to him and I said (with even more
of an edge in my voice) that I am sick and tired of him never doing
anything for himself and never cooperating with anything I ask him to
do. He put his socks on when he saw I was about to lose it.

Then I held the door open and asked if everyone could please go out
the door and get in the car. I asked them if they thought they could
manage to do it without fighting, complaining, hitting, or kicking
anybody else. My daughter looked at me really weird and
said, "Mommy, what is wrong?" lol I said, "Nothing, I'm just in a
really bad mood, so please get in the car".

When we all got in the car, I decided to be honest. I told them that
I was sick of them always expecting me to do everything for them. I
told them that no one ever cleans up their dishes or throws away
their candy wrappers or puts their things away when they're done with
them. I told them that I really want to do all these cool things
with them, but that it's been really frustrating lately. We do the
cool things, no one EVER decides that they want to help me do any
clean up, and while I'm cleaning up, they mess up more somewhere
else. I told them that I CAN NOT keep up with it anymore. I gave
them last night as an example. Last night, I made a cake for my
three year old at his request, because we're celebrating big blue
monkey's birthday today. (Big Blue Monkeky is a stuffed animal) It
was a Thomas the tank engine cake, with lots of colored wilton
icing. I didn't mind doing it at all, and it was fun because he
helped me mix the colors in to the icing and even squeezed some of
the icing onto the cake. But then dd asked me to play a game. I
said that it was getting late and the only way I could play a game
with her is if she would help me clean up. She came in once and half
heartedly wiped a rag over the table, not really doing anything, and
then went into another room and played around doing something else.
I reminded her gently and kindly that if she wants me to have time to
play her game, she would have to help me. She came in again for
maybe 30 seconds and threw a paper towel toward the garbage can, it
landed on the floor, and she went to do something else. I finished
cleaning up all by myself and was too tired (and too annoyed!) to
play a game by then. By the time I got the diningroom and kitchen
recovered from our cake adventure, 2 other rooms were trashed from
them playing and not cleaning anything up. I was too tired to clean
them up, and was really discouraged because of all these people who
say they just keep up with the mess as soon as it happens and never
let anything build up. I had just spent an hour and a half cleaning
icing off tables and floors and doing dishes, now I was tired and
needed to do another 2 rooms?

I told them that it is just rude and inconsiderate of them to treat
me like their personal maids. I told them that if they could at
least put their dishes in the sink and put their things away when
they're done with them I would feel so much better.

And I told them that they were doing things to annoy each other way
too often, that the level of fighting that we've been having is
causing way too much stress in the house. I told them that they just
need to stop constantly doing things that they know are going to
annoy someone else.

They said ok, and said that they were sorry that they've been
inconsiderate and that they'd try to contribute more. I felt much
better.

Then we got home, I asked if they could please clean up the
livingroom so that people can walk through it and there is a
comfortable place for everyone to sit on the couch, because their
grandma and grandpa are coming over for big monkey's birthday party
and to watch a movie with them. My 5 year old said, "I won't". I
just looked at him and said, "That is so rude". He looked at me, and
then joined the other two in cleaning up the livingroom of the at
least 50 stuffed animals and beanie babies (among other things) that
they had all over the floor.

So, did I mess up?

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/2003 4:44:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:
> How is the piece of advice not a punishment or shaming them for not
> being able to control themselves? "You have been given many chances
> to keep quiet after your dad went to bed and you continually blew it,
> so now I'm going to insist on an arbitrary bedtime". Isn't this
> authoritarian? (And I'm genuinely asking, not picking a fight)


Let's do this: we have NOW a group of 4-5 adults who are staying up late,
talking loudly, giggling, and generally being a nuisance---while I have to
get up at 5am to go to the job that's paying for those ingrates to live in my
house, eat the food I provide, and play all day.

All adults here! No kids. We're all, say---32 years old.

Whose rights come first?

I can't imagine asking MY boys to be quiet and having them NOT be quiet. It's
plain and simple consideration and respect for someone they love very much.
Why WOULDN'T they stop being monkeys?

It's not an "all or nothing" scenario. But there's GOT to be consideration
shown to the man who is working to keep them happy. WHY wouldn't they honor
him by being quieter? THAT'S the bigger question!

~Kelly





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 2:45:02 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< He said that he
wouldn't, that he wanted me to get them and put them on for him. He
is 5 1/2 years old and more than capable of getting his own socks
on. That pushed me over the edge, >>

But he asked you to because he loves you and he was frustrated and maybe
hungry, and feeling small. NOT feeling capable. Needing his mom.

Should we all have to do everything of which we're capable?

I COULD get a chair and climb up to the top shelf. I am 49 years olf and
more than capable of getting to the top shelf. But I live with three people
taller than I am, and it's easier and safer to ask them.

Everyone in this house is fully capable of doing laundry, but I do it best
and without any thought or effort.

I am fully capable of changing a tire, but if my husband is there he will
offer to change it for me, because he doesn't have to think through the
steps, and he's stronger than I am.

<<Then I held the door open and asked if everyone could please go out
the door and get in the car. I asked them if they thought they could
manage to do it without fighting, complaining, hitting, or kicking
anybody else>>

Did they still really feel like eating donuts with you?

<<My daughter looked at me really weird and
said, "Mommy, what is wrong?" lol I said, "Nothing, I'm just in a
really bad mood>>

I think your daughter was right and you were wrong.
Something was wrong.

<<I told them that it is just rude and inconsiderate of them to treat
me like their personal maids. >>

They were treating you like their mom.
Have they ever HAD personal maids?

<< I told them that
I was sick of them...>

No matter what you said after that, you said they made you sick.

<<So, did I mess up? >>

I think so.

I think staying home, leaving later, maybe you going for a drive to cool down
and to bring donuts back to the house, would have been more peaceful.

The lol here disturbed me:

-=- My daughter looked at me really weird and
said, "Mommy, what is wrong?" lol
-=-

She was probably a little afraid. And she was communicating. And she was
being compassionate.
And obviously something was wrong. Wrong enough for them to get a huge
lecture.

It's true people get frustrated and express themselves, but if the stress
level in the house is really too high, you neither lowered it nor showed them
a good way to respond when stressed.

I hope you're able to get to a calmer place and apologize to them.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/03 6:05:59 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< > How is the piece of advice not a punishment or shaming them for not
> being able to control themselves? "You have been given many chances
> to keep quiet after your dad went to bed and you continually blew it,
> so now I'm going to insist on an arbitrary bedtime". Isn't this
> authoritarian? >>

Yes it is.

I think those whose husbands don't want to homeschool might end up having
their kids in school.

Those whose husbands don't want to unschool might end up using lessons.

Those whose husbands won't agree to loosen bedtime rules might end up
divorced.

Because somehow (in many small steps over time) I figured out how to help my
husband love the idea of unschooling, and because (in small steps over time)
he came to be okay with the kids being up late and sleeping late, I have the
luxury of having those conditions in my home.

If a person doesn't have that luxury yet, then they don't.

There's nothing we can say here to change the reality that it takes small
steps to get from one place to another.

From time to time newer unschoolers complain to the older ones. They say
"I've left my kids alone for a month and they're bored and boring. You said
your kids were interesting. Mine aren't. I guess I can't unschool." Or
they say "MY kids eat candy for hours and watch TV without blinking until
their eyes dry up and turn to powder."

We can't see their kids from here. We don't know how they interact. They
can't see ours. They get angry with us. I don't like people being angry
with me. I'm not sure what to do about this, but the past week has been a
festival of misunderstandings and resentments, it seems.

And so if a parent comes here and says "my spouse is angry because I'm doing
THIS," I have to say "Then don't do that."

We can't guarantee that everybody can unschool within thirty days of finding
this list or the forum. We can let the ideas flow, which they do, week in
and week out. We can tweak and question and encourage. But we can't
enforce or change their in-home conditions.

There are ways to live without being authoritarian. But the parents have to
agree to a large extent for it to even BEGIN to work, because no kid needs to
be the victim of one parent berating the other, or berating the child, over
bedtimes or food or anything else.

The near-constant suggestions about loosening controls on food and schedules
and tv are for the purpose of AVOIDING kids being shamed and berated. Not to
bait someone into starting divorce procedings.

When someone comes here assuring us that something is NOT working and WILL
NOT WORK at their house, then they should simply stop trying it. They should
do what they need to do to maintain their families. Unschooling doesn't work
if someone breaks up a family to try to obtain it.

Some people will not get it. That's got to be okay, or we set people up for
failure by even telling them it's a possible option.

Sandra

kayb85 <[email protected]>

> I can't imagine asking MY boys to be quiet and having them NOT be
quiet. It's
> plain and simple consideration and respect for someone they love
very much.
> Why WOULDN'T they stop being monkeys?
>
> It's not an "all or nothing" scenario. But there's GOT to be
consideration
> shown to the man who is working to keep them happy. WHY wouldn't
they honor
> him by being quieter? THAT'S the bigger question!
>
> ~Kelly

Because they're immature and keep forgetting themselves?

Sheila

Angela

Sandra wrote:
Because somehow (in many small steps over time) I figured out how to help
my
husband love the idea of unschooling, and because (in small steps over time)

he came to be okay with the kids being up late and sleeping late, I have the

luxury of having those conditions in my home.

It seems to me that this goes along with the thread "Is Unschooling a
Transformation"? Well, it definately was for us. It was a transformation in
thinking, a paradigm shift, which didn't happen overnight. When I first
read about unschooling it was as if a lightbulb went on in my head. That's
it, I though!! That's what we are already doing, yet, it still took a
change in thinking for me to understand that I could keep doing this
indefinateley. (and the changes didn't come without some worry and some deep
soul searching)

Even though we were attachement parents, never sent our kids to school,
learned with our kids as they grew, followed our hearts, etc. it still was a
paradigm shift when it came to understanding that we can keep living life
this way forever. If you aren't in the position of having to make your kids
do stuff they don't want to do, you are able to have a different kind of
relationship with them. But, you can only read so many books at once and
absorb them all. As I was introduced to more and more books on parenting
and relationships and as I worked to incorporate those new ideas into our
lives, our goals for our kids changed and we saw things in a new light. We
knew we didn't want a traditional athoritarian relationship with our
children, but didn't know how else it could work until we read and read and
found books that explained what we held in our hearts. The books gave us a
deeper understanding of ourselves and our relationship to our kids and
helped us to set our goals instead of just running on auto-pilot. Some of
the books off the top of my head that have had a real impact on me are:
"The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Families", "Punished by Rewards",
Parent Effectiveness Training", and "Nonviolent Communication: A Language
of Compassion" .

What books have had the greatest impact on you? (everyone)


Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/

"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

Sandra wrote:
Because somehow (in many small steps over time) I figured out how to help
my
husband love the idea of unschooling, and because (in small steps over time)

he came to be okay with the kids being up late and sleeping late, I have the

luxury of having those conditions in my home.


I should have clarified that below is me speaking...Angela:
It seems to me that this goes along with the thread "Is Unschooling a
Transformation"? Well, it definately was for us. It was a transformation in
thinking, a paradigm shift, which didn't happen overnight. When I first
read about unschooling it was as if a lightbulb went on in my head. That's
it, I though!! That's what we are already doing, yet, it still took a
change in thinking for me to understand that I could keep doing this
indefinateley. (and the changes didn't come without some worry and some deep
soul searching)

Even though we were attachement parents, never sent our kids to school,
learned with our kids as they grew, followed our hearts, etc. it still was a
paradigm shift when it came to understanding that we can keep living life
this way forever. If you aren't in the position of having to make your kids
do stuff they don't want to do, you are able to have a different kind of
relationship with them. But, you can only read so many books at once and
absorb them all. As I was introduced to more and more books on parenting
and relationships and as I worked to incorporate those new ideas into our
lives, our goals for our kids changed and we saw things in a new light. We
knew we didn't want a traditional athoritarian relationship with our
children, but didn't know how else it could work until we read and read and
found books that explained what we held in our hearts. The books gave us a
deeper understanding of ourselves and our relationship to our kids and
helped us to set our goals instead of just running on auto-pilot. Some of
the books off the top of my head that have had a real impact on me are:
"The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Families", "Punished by Rewards",
Parent Effectiveness Training", and "Nonviolent Communication: A Language
of Compassion" .

What books have had the greatest impact on you? (everyone)


Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page
http://userpages.prexar.com/rickshaw/

"What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say."
Emerson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 1/30/03 9:22 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> When someone comes here assuring us that something is NOT working and WILL
> NOT WORK at their house, then they should simply stop trying it. They should
> do what they need to do to maintain their families. Unschooling doesn't work
> if someone breaks up a family to try to obtain it.

That could get interpretted as ask once, try something and then go back to
what you were doing if it doesn't work.

I don't think people should complain about the advice given, but if they
want something better, they should feel free to come back and tell us what
they tried and what's not working and ask if people can give them a
perspective they aren't seeing. Otherwise all they really have is the same
old thinking to try to solve the problem with.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/30/03 4:44 PM, kayb85 <sheran@...> at sheran@... wrote:

> How is the piece of advice not a punishment or shaming them for not
> being able to control themselves? "You have been given many chances
> to keep quiet after your dad went to bed and you continually blew it,
> so now I'm going to insist on an arbitrary bedtime". Isn't this
> authoritarian? (And I'm genuinely asking, not picking a fight)

Though Sandra I think admitted it was authoritarian, I think it gets to the
essence of when it's okay to set limits and when it's not. The limits thing
is tough to discuss because most parents come with a huge repetoire of
boundaries that the kids need to adhere to. The problem is recognizing what
are real boundaries and what are arbitrary boundaries set up to make life
easier for the parent.

This particular dad needing to get up at 6 and needing 8 hours of sleep (or
whatever the numbers were) for work is a real life limitation. It could mean
the difference between having and/or enjoying a job or not. Adults wanting
alone time every evening with each other is arbitrary. There are other
solutions for that that won't be one person deciding their needs are greater
than another's needs.

> But then dd asked me to play a game. I
> said that it was getting late and the only way I could play a game
> with her is if she would help me clean up. She came in once and half
> heartedly wiped a rag over the table, not really doing anything, and
> then went into another room and played around doing something else.
> I reminded her gently and kindly that if she wants me to have time to
> play her game, she would have to help me.

If you were upset that she didn't come in to help, then were you really
asking? If you were asking, yes or no would have been both acceptable
answers. If yes, you would have the energy to play. If no, you wouldn't.

Look at it this way, if you were somewhere and needed to clean up and your
daughter wanted to get home to see a TV show and you knew that you weren't
going to have time to clean up without her help to get her home on time, if
she chose not to help, would you be angry? It would be her choice not to get
home on time. It was her choice not to help in the kitchen.

(Of course it depends on the age too. Expecting a 5yo or maybe even a 10yo
who has been coerced into doing chores to grasp what tired and time looks
like from an adult point of view is asking a lot.)

Perhaps this felt different because you knew you could physically play the
game. It felt somewhat arbitrary to say if I finish at 9 we can play, but if
I finish at 9:15 we can't. This is a balance thing. It's learning to be more
objective about your daughter's needs and about what your real needs are
too.

But perhaps, if you know her help doesn't really cut much out of the effort
the task takes -- and include in there her companionship and effort if she's
truly interested in helping even if her help doesn't make the task go any
faster, a better offer would have been doing it in the morning.

> Kind of along these lines, I lost it with my kids this morning. I've
> been feeling edgy for the last few days because of their behavior and
> continuous refusal to help me do much of anything, and this morning I
> just felt like I didn't even want to get out of bed and deal with
> them.

Your anger is all about control. You want them to be a certain way and I
think you're expecting to be able to use some technique to turn them into
what you want them to be.

And it's about them wanting not to be controlled. So right now when you ask
them to help, it's going to seem like you're making them help. Especially if
you've used asking when no wasn't really an acceptable answer.

It's about your relationship with them. I think you're really feeling that
mom and child division, where it's your job to get them to live the right
way. So try to turn that on it's head and see yourself as their partner.
They are where they are and your job is to help them get where they want to
go.

Rather than trying to change them, how about being the person you want them
to be? I'm sure you are in many ways, but you're doing it from your point of
view. When you think you're being generous, it probably more often looks
like you doing something you want to do (like making the cake. Even if they
notice how long it takes, they have no concept of how much work it
involves.) Do you want them to hold in their feelings and blow up in order
to get people to do what you want them to do? (This shouldn't really be
about the cleaning, though. You should see the househould tasks as yours.
Ask for help, certainly, but they're yours. That doesn't mean you can't help
them figure out ways to make what you want to do easier. Like having bins to
throw things into. The more they come to see that you own the chores and
that you really are asking for their help and appreciate anything they can
do to help, the more they'll be likely to help.) How about observing them
when they're doing something and asking if they need help with something?
Wouldn't you want them to do that? How about sitting down with them when
they're playing just to be in their company? Wouldn't that be really sweet
if they did that? How about noticing the less noticable times when someone
might need a hug and giving them a hug?

That won't solve everything, but at the heart of the tension you're feeling
in your relationship is the control thing. And it's about boundaries too.
You can't expect them to understand your boundaries and meet your needs. But
you have to be atuned to what they're needs are too. Mom's need sleep but
insisting that an infant set aside its needs so Mom can sleep is
unreasonable.

(This is *really* hard to explain! So maybe some place in there was
something that might help.)

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/30/03 9:57 PM, kayb85 <sheran@...> at sheran@... wrote:

>> WHY wouldn't
>> they honor
>> him by being quieter? THAT'S the bigger question!
>>
>> ~Kelly
>
> Because they're immature and keep forgetting themselves?

Because they're young? Because they've been told what to do for so long that
when someone honestly is asking them, it feels like they're being told?

I think it was easy to read Kelly's question as snarky as though she's
saying "Well, *my* kids would never do that." But it's an honest question.
The *why* is more important in finding a solution than the what.

Joyce

Kelli Traaseth

Angela <unschooling@...> wrote:

"Nonviolent Communication: A Language
of Compassion" .



Is this one by Marshal Rosenberg?



I'm wanting to read something on this, our library system had none! Can you believe it? I would like to do some role playing and such with the kids on nonviolent conflict management. We have Don't Rant and Rave on Wednesday, but I need more.



Kelli









Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cindyjsowers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:

So try to turn that on it's head and see yourself as their partner.
> They are where they are and your job is to help them get where
they want to go.
>

That was perfect. Thank you.

Cindy

Barb Eaton

Angela,
I'm sure you'll get some goo replies to this one. I've gotten some of
the best sugestions from here. :-) Most recently for me, the last six
months, it has been;
The Book of Learning and forgetting by Frank Smith
My Ishmeal by Daneil Quinn
Living Joyfully with Children by Win And Bill Sweet
The Explosive Child
Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
Most of all
The Parent-Teen Breakthrough: The Relationship approach by Mira Kirshenbaum

I'm now on
The Wonder of Boys by Michael Gurian
Raising Cain by Dan Kindlon and Michael Thompson

Barb E
"What we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But if
that drop was not in the ocean, I think the ocean would be
less because of that missing drop. I do not agree with
the big way of doing things."

- Mother Theresa, Albanian Nun, Missionary





on 1/31/03 1:25 AM, Angela at unschooling@... wrote:
>
> What books have had the greatest impact on you? (everyone)
>
>
> Angela in Maine

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/2003 9:49:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:


> I think it was easy to read Kelly's question as snarky as though she's
> saying "Well, *my* kids would never do that." But it's an honest question.
> The *why* is more important in finding a solution than the what.
>

Yeah, thank you---I WASN'T being snarky. It's that WHY question again!

Thanks, Joyce.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

Yeah Kelli,
That is the one. And I do believe it about your library; ours doesn't have
anything. Thank God for the interl-ibrary loan! www.cnvc.org has some
articles written on the web site.

Angela in Maine

Kelli wrote:
Is this one by Marshal Rosenberg?



I'm wanting to read something on this, our library system had none! Can
you believe it? I would like to do some role playing and such with the
kids on nonviolent conflict management. We have Don't Rant and Rave
on Wednesday, but I need more.



Kelli


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< > How is the piece of advice not a punishment or shaming them for not
> being able to control themselves? "You have been given many chances
> to keep quiet after your dad went to bed and you continually blew it,
> so now I'm going to insist on an arbitrary bedtime". Isn't this
> authoritarian? (And I'm genuinely asking, not picking a fight) >>

The quoted part is not a quote of what I wrote.
I wrote this:


<<
Just tell them you need them to go to bed by ten, that maybe when they're
older and able to be quiet you can extend it.
>>

If the children honestly can't even try to be quiet, then it's too soon in
their lives to give them the freedom. Children given freedom earlier or more
gradually ease into it. Those given freedom all of a sudden sometimes seem
to hoot and holler and jump on the couch and eat all the candy, according to
many reports and general experience.

If instead of easing into relaxation of bedtime restrictions someone says
"Stay up all night, we don't care" but the dad DOES care, then communications
are bad. If things aren't evolving naturally and honestly, it's not growth,
it's chaos.

If things are going well with transition, there's no reason to re-instutite
any rules. If things truly aren't going well and no solution is in sight
other than more disrespect and stress and possibly fighting or divorce, go
back to the beginning and start where you were and try the transition another
way.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 1/31/03 8:26 PM, Angela at unschooling@... wrote:

> That is the one. And I do believe it about your library; ours doesn't have
> anything. Thank God for the interl-ibrary loan! www.cnvc.org has some
> articles written on the web site.

Well our library consortium has 70 or so libraries in it, some of them
pretty big, and there's only 2 copies of it.

Joyce

Angela

It's a keeper anyway! I got it from inter-library loan to check it out,
then went on-line and bought a copy. Of course I paid full price, but then
I found a copy for a friend for $5 including shipping. So look around, you
might find a deal!!
Angela in Maine


consortium has 70 or so libraries in it, some of them
pretty big, and there's only 2 copies of it.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Yes, I did check our consortium, it has about 20 libraries within it, there isn't 1.

I think its time to change that! I'm going to the library today to ask about adding some books to their collections, these being some and then some attachment parenting ones (especially The Continuum Concept) and unschooling ones. I'm on a quest!

Kelli


Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:on 1/31/03 8:26 PM, Angela at unschooling@... wrote:

> That is the one. And I do believe it about your library; ours doesn't have
> anything. Thank God for the interl-ibrary loan! www.cnvc.org has some
> articles written on the web site.

Well our library consortium has 70 or so libraries in it, some of them
pretty big, and there's only 2 copies of it.

Joyce


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Come forth into the light of things, let Nature be your teacher.
William Wordsworth


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

> Your anger is all about control. You want them to be a certain way
and I
> think you're expecting to be able to use some technique to turn
them into
> what you want them to be.
>
> And it's about them wanting not to be controlled. So right now when
you ask
> them to help, it's going to seem like you're making them help.
Especially if
> you've used asking when no wasn't really an acceptable answer.

Sigh...You're right. And it does make me sad that I lost it. We
WERE "getting it". Things had been going so well.

When I sat down and evaluated it, I don't think it was about me
needing them to help more, but about me feeling like I was inadequate
to keep up with them.

Interestingly, I had developed an asthma-like cough. I had been
feeling so overwhelmed and had been keeping it in for awhile, because
I wanted this to work so badly. The cough developed gradually, got at
it's worst point on the day when I yelled at my kids. The next day,
when I started to deal with my feelings of inadequacy and feeling
overwhelmed, the cough got much better and today it's almost gone.
This feeling of being overwhelmed that I had was so intense that it
affected my breathing.

The fact is that I struggle with the cleaning issue a LOT. I
constantly reflect on it and try to put it in perspective. Some days
I put it in perspective really well and some days I totally can't
handle it.

People on this list have said that their houses don't look like
tornadoes have gone through them. If that's true, I don't understand
how they do it. If I give my kids the time that they really want
from me, I am busy with them practically all day with little time
left over to do much cleaning. That little bit of extra time I get
seems to go the computer discussing unschooling. :). I'm not talking
about little messes here and there, I'm talking about huge messes,
starting at one end of the house and going to another. Just as I'm
straightening up from one activity, someone will need me for
something else and I'm forced to choose between straightening up and
meeting a human need.

I hear people saying that they just straighten up one mess as soon as
they're done playing with something. They make it sound so easy.
That might work with one kid, but with three, who are constantly
doing three different things at the same time? As I'm straightening
up one mess, two more messes are made.

I'm thinking that maybe it's just because my kids are still young--
they're 9, 5, and 3.

And I get really confused that people are able to do spend so much
time on the computer discussing stuff and still keep up with their
kids and their kids' messes. Again, maybe because my kids are
younger. But I have realized that I'm not going to be able to
continue being this mom I want to be if I keep sitting down at the
computer so often. I'm going to need to cut back my computer time
way back so that I'm able to spend time keeping up with them. I just
have to face the fact that others might be able to do it, but I can't
at this point in our life. And I'm blessed that I have such great,
active kids that are keeping me so busy that I have time for little
else.

My kids are cool. They're interesting and incredibly creative kids.
They're full of energy and come up with all kinds of neat ideas all
the time. Creative kids make big messes sometimes. They require me
to put huge amounts of energy and time into them. I'm incredibly
blessed to have them and I'm incredibly dedicated to being the best
possible unschoooling mommy for them. But after a whole lot of
evaluation of this last blow-up of mine, I'm realizing that I need to
give the computer time a break if I'm going to avoid getting
overwhelmed again. There is only so much time in a day and I have to
prioritize.

This list has changed my life! Thank you so much to all of you who
have helped me so much. I love it and could spend hours a day on it.
But for now, in order to follow all of your great advice, I just
sense that I need to leave it for awhile. Make sense? I'll still pop
in from time to time (I read messages on the yahoo site, not by
email).

Sheila

> It's about your relationship with them. I think you're really
feeling that
> mom and child division, where it's your job to get them to live the
right
> way. So try to turn that on it's head and see yourself as their
partner.
> They are where they are and your job is to help them get where they
want to
> go.
>
> Rather than trying to change them, how about being the person you
want them
> to be? I'm sure you are in many ways, but you're doing it from your
point of
> view. When you think you're being generous, it probably more often
looks
> like you doing something you want to do (like making the cake. Even
if they
> notice how long it takes, they have no concept of how much work it
> involves.) Do you want them to hold in their feelings and blow up
in order
> to get people to do what you want them to do? (This shouldn't
really be
> about the cleaning, though. You should see the househould tasks as
yours.
> Ask for help, certainly, but they're yours. That doesn't mean you
can't help
> them figure out ways to make what you want to do easier. Like
having bins to
> throw things into. The more they come to see that you own the
chores and
> that you really are asking for their help and appreciate anything
they can
> do to help, the more they'll be likely to help.) How about
observing them
> when they're doing something and asking if they need help with
something?
> Wouldn't you want them to do that? How about sitting down with them
when
> they're playing just to be in their company? Wouldn't that be
really sweet
> if they did that? How about noticing the less noticable times when
someone
> might need a hug and giving them a hug?
>
> That won't solve everything, but at the heart of the tension you're
feeling
> in your relationship is the control thing. And it's about
boundaries too.
> You can't expect them to understand your boundaries and meet your
needs. But
> you have to be atuned to what they're needs are too. Mom's need
sleep but
> insisting that an infant set aside its needs so Mom can sleep is
> unreasonable.
>
> (This is *really* hard to explain! So maybe some place in there was
> something that might help.)
>
> Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/03 12:23:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

> People on this list have said that their houses don't look like
> tornadoes have gone through them. If that's true, I don't understand
> how they do it. If I give my kids the time that they really want
> from me, I am busy with them practically all day with little time
> left over to do much cleaning. That little bit of extra time I get
> seems to go the computer discussing unschooling. :). I'm not talking
> about little messes here and there, I'm talking about huge messes,
> starting at one end of the house and going to another. Just as I'm
>

I feel for you. But I have no suggestions. I have always thought that my
house looked like a tornado hit and that it was OK. But I think when I was
saying this it was in the heat of the moment. Just after we had finished a
major house renovation project and was feeling a little helpless. I look
around right now and It isn't that bad. I few toys out a few dishes in the
sink. The carpet needs to see the vacuum and a few book here and there but
not disaster. Or maybe my perception of clean has changed.
I pick up as I go. If I am headed toward the kitchen I take a few dishes
with me. If I see all the G. I. Joes out and they haven't been played with
for a few days I toss them back in their basket. They might not make it back
to the family room but they are in the plastic tub and not all over the
floor.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/03 10:23:11 AM, sheran@... writes:

<< The fact is that I struggle with the cleaning issue a LOT. I
constantly reflect on it and try to put it in perspective. Some days
I put it in perspective really well and some days I totally can't
handle it. >>

This morning I went in to fix Malt-o-Meal for Holly (after she cried for most
of an hour and said she was too sick to go to her class, but she WANTED to go
to her class).

All around the burner was heavy grease from Keith and Marty cooking
hamburgers in a skillet.

For half a second I was angry that they didn't clean it up, and then I just
got a hot rag and cleaned it up, thinking how much easier that was on me than
if I had gone up and made them dinner last night. That would have brought me
to tears, I was so sick. But this morning I felt better and cleaned up that
mess in about thirty seconds.

-=-Just as I'm straightening up from one activity, someone will need me for
something else and I'm forced to choose between straightening up and
meeting a human need. -=-

You could put your kids in school, let teachers meet their human needs, and
clean house for five or six hours a day.

Or you could meet human needs first ALWAYS and let your house wait until your
children are older and don't need you.

Choosing to homeschool always means you'll have about a school's worth of
extra stuff in your house, and kids there all the time. Keeping a clean
house at the sake of anyone's peace or sanity is too expensive for my tastes.



Sandra

Marjorie Kirk

> It's a keeper anyway! I got it from inter-library loan to check it out,
> then went on-line and bought a copy. Of course I paid full price, but
then
> I found a copy for a friend for $5 including shipping. So look around,
you
> might find a deal!!
> Angela in Maine
>


You're right, Angela, it is a keeper. I ordered it at the library, then
decided I needed a copy to read and high-light, and keep around for easy
reference. I ordered the kids' book too, but haven't gotten it yet.

Marjorie

Deborah Lewis

On Sat, 01 Feb 2003 17:21:47 -0000 "kayb85 <sheran@...>" writes:
***The fact is that I struggle with the cleaning issue a LOT. I
constantly reflect on it and try to put it in perspective. Some days
I put it in perspective really well and some days I totally can't
handle it. ***

Is there a teenager in your neighborhood that might like a few extra
dollars. I used to clean for people instead of baby sitting because
cleaning paid just as well but didn't take up my Friday nights.
Maybe there's a homeschooled kid who would come do laundry, or cook or
straighten for you a few days a week? You could get the help you want
and still play with your kids.

Is there a service you could offer in trade for light house keeping? Do
you sew or play piano, could you give lessons in trade for dusting or
something? Could you work a deal with another mom for a few hours a
week to take your kid while you clean and then you take hers?

Does your husband help you? Can you talk to him about maybe getting more
help from him? If he's not willing to help tell him you're hiring
someone three days a week. It would be worth it for your sanity.
Really, truly worth it.

Are there things you could do to make clean up easier? Cupboards or bins
you could buy for each room where you could get things out of your way in
a hurry?

OR, can you get past that thing that says your house has to be clean?
Just do the basics and let the rest go until your kids are bigger and
don't need you with them all the time. You will have too much time to
clean when they've gone from you.

***I'm talking about huge messes,
starting at one end of the house and going to another.***

This might be the difference in how people perceive *mess*. <g>
We all have different comfort levels. Your mess might just be what my
house looks like every day!
Right now there is a card table in the spare room with a lego castle on
it and dragons and catapults. There is a stack of books and videos on
the hide-a-bed and a bag of fabric I'm sorting and cutting up for rugs.
There's a half finished puzzle on the dining room table and a microscope
and a platter of rhinoceros beetles.
There's a load of laundry in the dryer, not folded, one in the washer
waiting for the dryer, dishes in the sink and water color paintings
drying on the kitchen table. There is the beginnings of a ship in a
bottle on the coffee table. I have a very small house. At the moment it
looks really messy, and it probably will all day.

***I'm thinking that maybe it's just because my kids are still young--
they're 9, 5, and 3.***

That is very young. And when they're grown they'll tell people about all
the fun they had being creative as children. Those make much better
stories than how they had to keep the house clean!<g>

***And I get really confused that people are able to do spend so much
time on the computer discussing stuff and still keep up with their
kids and their kids' messes. ***

I get up at three thirty in the morning.<g> I wait until Dylan has
company, or is busy outside, or is visiting a friend and then I read
here. Or, I read in the evenings when he's watching a movie. I work my
computer time around his schedule. It is harder with more kids. In
the summer I have my nieces and nephews and my time to read and post is
limited.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/03 12:27:33 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< That is very young. And when they're grown they'll tell people about all
the fun they had being creative as children. Those make much better
stories than how they had to keep the house clean!<g>
>>

YES!!

And when they come to visit you because they have SUCH fond memories of the
time you spent with them, they'll be impressed by how neat and clean your
house is!

If you irritate them too much now by choosing cleaning over them, they might
not be as eager to come and visit your irritatingly clean house when they're
grown.

Sandra