Have a Nice Day!

Sorry to keep chiming in here about Judaism, its just I've studied it a lot over the last 2 years and I'm amazed at what I've learned, compared to what I expected to learn.

Jews are permitted to hit their children when they are young, but even that is qualified by saying you're supposed to use something that wouldn't even hurt, the point being that they are not to hurt their children.

When they reach the age of accountability (age 13 for boys, 12 for girls), Jews are NOT permitted to hit their children. Why? Because their children might want to hit back and hitting parents is forbidden.

Remember the saying "Parents, don't provoke your children?" (it might even be repeated in the New Testament, not sure anymore) Thats where it came from and why.

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Spanking for Eternity WAS conservativehomeschoolers


on 1/25/03 4:38 PM, Liza Sabater at liza@... wrote:

> I've seen seemingly Hassidic Jews & Muslims smack their kids. I know
> they are hassidim and muslims because of the way they were dressed
> --this is NYC after all. To say that only protestants foster spanking
> is disingenuous. I mean, come on, look at the catholic church.

I think what you and Debbie are refering to when you suggest that other
religions spank is a cultural practice. It's passed on by families. It's
community "wisdom".

Spanking is a cultural practice in America too.

But fundamentalists spank because it's a mandate from God. It overrides
family and community and personal practices because it's what God
(supposedly) wants them to do.

I tried Sandra's suggestion and typed in "spanking children" and then
jewish, muslim and christian. It isn't obvious from the descriptions that
Jewish or Muslim hits are religious in nature. You have to actually visit
the pages to find religious writings quoted. And the Jewish one also looks
to secular information to come to a conclusion.

But there's no question about the Christian sites. You don't even have to
visit the pages to see references to the Bible. The first screenful of hits
is down below the Jewish and Muslim sites. (If you dig into any of them
you'll see some mighty disturbing stuff. Not just because it's spanking, but
because of the need to control and make children behave as they are supposed
to.)

Here's the Jewish and Muslim pages that reference religous writings that I
found on the first screenful:

http://pub110.ezboard.com/fgeoparentfrm226.showMessage?topicID=20.topic
Spare the Rod?
> Does Judaism advise spanking a disobedient
> child?
> The Bible says yes. The "rebellious son" is to
> be put to death by stoning (Deut. 21:18-21), and
> Proverbs (13:24) teaches: "He who spares the rod
> hates his son."
> But by the talmudic period, these harsh doc-
> trines of parental discipline were replaced with an
> emphasis on kindness and compassion. The Tal-
> mud defines the "rebellious son" out of existence
> (San. 71a), rules that a teacher could punish a
> student at most with a leather shoelace (
> Bava Batra
> 21a), outlaws hitting grown children (
> Mo'ed Katan
> 17a), and declares: "With a child, push away with
> the left hand, and draw near with the right"(
> Sotah
> 47a)-the right hand normally being the stron-
> ger. As a result of these rabbinic teachings, tradi-
> tional Jewish homes were noted for treating their
> children with love and warmth. Still, corporal pun-
> ishment was not eliminated in the traditional re-
> ligious school for boys-the
> cheder-
> in Eastern
> Europe, where teachers often hit their students
> for even minor infractions.
> Modern social science is still divided on the
> question "to spank or not to spank." In 1996, Dr.
> Murray A. Straus, a professor at the University of
> New Hampshire, and Dr. Robert Larzelere of Boys
> Town began a continuing debate in the journal
> Pediatrics
> on the effectiveness of spanking. Dr.
> Straus argued that many studies, including his
> own, show that spanked children become more
> antisocial and do worse in school. Dr. Larzelere
> challenged Straus's conclusion, claiming that the
> damaging effects of spanking are true only in cases
> of frequent spanking and of corporal punishment
> of older children. For two- to six-year-olds, he
> wrote, occasional non-abusive spanking ("two
> open-handed swats to the buttocks leaving no
> bruise") is beneficial as a back-up to time-outs and
> reasoning; when the children turn seven, time-
> outs and reasoning alone-with spanking in re-
> serve-have become so effective that spanking is
> no longer necessary.
> Both sides of the debate agree that spanking
> school-age children is undesirable. As for toddlers,
> nearly half of American parents oppose spanking,
> but, according to Straus, nearly all resort to cor-
> poral punishment on occasion. With the debate
> on disciplining toddlers still unsettled, A good
> Reform Jewish approach would be to err on the
> side of compassion and follow Straus's advice never
> to spank.
> - William Berkson

http://www.geocities.com/islam_ap/article.html
> It is this attitude of mercy and gentleness which I and many other Muslim
> parents believe forms a major part of Islam¹s compatibility with Attachment
> Parenting. For example, spanking of young children is explicitly prohibited
> according to Islamic law. Use of bad language and intimidation are also alien
> to the Islamic tradition, as the Qur¹an says not to use bad language unless
> one has been ³gravely wronged² and the Prophet never cursed, used bad language
> or insults, and never hit any person, animal, or inanimate object. One of his
> Companions said ³I have never seen anyone more kind to his family than the
> Messenger of Allah.² Practices such as allowing a baby to ³cry it out² in
> order to train it to sleep or eat on a schedule are considered vicious by this
> standard. The Prophet was known to be very sensitive to the cry of babies,
> even shortening the congregational prayer when he heard the babies in the
> mosque crying. He would also lengthen his solitary prayer as his grandson
> played on his back, as he did not want to disturb the child¹s play. These
> small deeds are actually very profound statements of the status of children in
> Islam, as it is prohibited to lengthen or alter the prayer in any way in order
> to accommodate other people such as somebody who may have joined the
> congregational prayer late, yet the Prophet made exceptions for children.

http://sisters.islamway.com/viewtopic.php?topic=4418&forum=2
> The father¹s duty is to bring his children up well and to take care of them,
> and hitting may be used as a means of discipline when the situation requires
> that. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) commanded us to
> smack children for not praying when they reach the age of ten, but this should
> be the last resort, when all others have failed, and there should be no
> harshness in the hitting, and we must not hit the face. The father should not
> hit his child at the time of extreme anger, or with a sharp instrument that
> may injure him, or with anything that may break bones, and he should not hit
> him in a place where a blow may be fatal. Brandishing the stick may be more
> effective than actually hitting. The point is that when disciplining his
> child, a father should follow the principle of using the gentlest means then
> the next gentlest; he should not resort to the harshest and most difficult
> means if he can achieve his aim with something that is easier and gentler.

And here's just the hits from the Christian search:

> CORPORAL PUNISHMENT OF CHILDREN (SPANKING)
> ... How King Solomon, in the Bible, strongly recommends corporal punishment of
> children.
> Recommendations by Evangelical Christian leaders in favor of spanking. ...
> www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages
>
> CORPORAL PUNISHMENT OF CHILDREN (SPANKING): The pro-spanking ...
> ... A leading Fundamentalist Christian leader, James Dobson of Focus on the
> Family, recommends spanking children from the age of 18 months. ...
> www.religioustolerance.org/spankin3.htm - 35k - Cached - Similar pages
>
> Children 101: A Christian Police Officer Writes About Spanking ...
> ... I am a Christian police officer in charge of ... that one element of
> discipline, spanking,
> is taken ... of Domestic Violence cases where children physically assault ...
> www.christian-parents.net/children/ C101_Police_Officer.htm - 19k
>
> Christian Parents Network - Home: Bible Based Resources For a ...
> ... yet we still believe spanking is a necessary tool in the parent's
> "Toolbox." You'll
> find helpful articles on the subject of spanking in the Children's section.
> ...
> www.christian-parents.net/Default.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages
>
(This one's a parody I think)
> A Christian Family Hour With PostFun
> ... Spanking News from the San Francisco Examiner... On beating children in
> the good
> old days, "'We had tremendous results,' said Simonds, who now runs a Christian
> www.postfun.com/pfp/family.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages
>
> Children's Book Catalog - Christian Identity, White Race, ...
> ... The classic phonetic readers with strong Christian and moral ... Our Speak
> Softly Spanking
> Stick may not be hickory ... the same purpose in teaching children good old
> www.kingidentity.com/children.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages
>
> In Defense of Spanking - Christian Appalachian Project
> ... BECOME A VOLUNTEER WITH THE CHRISTIAN APPALACHIAN PROJECT? ... Larimore on
> the age-old
> question of spanking. ... How To Discipline Your Children Effectively;
> Successful ...
> www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/
> 0,,PTID5560%7CCHID10%7CCIID1456764,00.html - 37k - Cached - Similar pages
>
> Scoop: Scoop Feedback: Spanking, ACC, Bali & Much More
> ... Spanking is the loving way to correct and discipline children. Spanking is
> also
> an expression of my Christian faith, guaranteed by section 15 of the Bill of
> www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0210/S00100.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages



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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/26/03 11:05:28 AM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< Sorry to keep chiming in here about Judaism, its just I've studied it a
lot over the last 2 years and I'm amazed at what I've learned, compared to
what I expected to learn. >>

I think it's wonderful that you share that with us. Thanks.

Sandra

Have a Nice Day!

<< Sorry to keep chiming in here about Judaism, its just I've studied it a
lot over the last 2 years and I'm amazed at what I've learned, compared to
what I expected to learn. >>

I think it's wonderful that you share that with us. Thanks.

Thanks Sandra,

I feel compelled to share it because Christianity claims to have come out of Judaism, and yet there is so much that Christianity teaches that never originated in Judaism (spanking, the use of the "rod", original sin, the role of women, how Jews viewed Gentiles in those days, the "covering of hair" (thats another good one) etc and that doesn't even begin to discuss the holidays such as Christmas and Easter which have pagan origins).

Jesus never claimed to start a new religion and actually said he did not wish to abolish the Law, which *includes* the prohibition against starting a new religion.

In the beginning the only difference between the Messianic Jews and the other Jews was that the Messianic Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah. They were just a subset of Judaism.

That being the case, I have to wonder where all the other (mostly Pauline) teachings came from if not from Judaism.

Kristen


Sandra


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Susan Fuerst

That being the case, I have to wonder where all the other (mostly
Pauline) teachings came from if not from Judaism.

Kristen


I'm thinking possibly a strong influence from Greek (esp. Platonic)
philosophy. If I remember correctly...it's something my dh would have
told me. I'll check with him on it.
Susan

Shyrley

Susan Fuerst wrote:

> That being the case, I have to wonder where all the other (mostly
> Pauline) teachings came from if not from Judaism.
>
> Kristen
>
>

Pauls teachings were influenced by mithraism.
This is why you see the change from the gospels where they write as if Jesus was a living physical person to Pauls writings where Jesus's life is rarely, if ever mentioned. It has become all spiritual
and faith based by then.
There's a really good site showing the parallels between Pauline writings and Mithraism but for some reason I ain't bookmarked it.

Shyrley

Have a Nice Day!

Susan Fuerst wrote:

> That being the case, I have to wonder where all the other (mostly
> Pauline) teachings came from if not from Judaism.
>
> Kristen
>
>

Pauls teachings were influenced by mithraism.
This is why you see the change from the gospels where they write as if Jesus was a living physical person to Pauls writings where Jesus's life is rarely, if ever mentioned. It has become all spiritual
and faith based by then.
There's a really good site showing the parallels between Pauline writings and Mithraism but for some reason I ain't bookmarked it.

Shyrley<<<

Shyrley gets the gold star!!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one who has read about that connection and the many other pagan connections.
Kristen






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