unchurching to Mike
[email protected]
Well Mike, I wasn't going to get into it, but since you insist....
Here is some information on that infamous vote, and why I believe the Bible
is hugely decided by man, not God. Even if many of the writers were God
inspired, there is a LOT of room for mangling.
This is a short excerpt from a website for skeptics like myself.....
Imagine what the Bible would look like today if voting had gone differently?
In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the Council
of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus from man
to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and
the Passover was changed to Easter. So what does this say about the Bible? It
says that MEN, not god, composed the Bible. Apologist Richard Sisson, in his
book, Answering Christianity's Most Puzzling Questions (Volume 1), states,
"In fact, after the death of Jesus a whole flood of books that claimed to be
inspired appeared... [...] Disputes over which ones were true were so intense
that the debate continued for centuries. Finally in the fourth century a
group of church leaders called a council and took a vote. The 66 books that
comprised our cherished Bible were declared to be Scripture by a vote of 568
to 563."
568 to 563? If 5 people had voted differently the Bible would be nothing like
it is today. You would be reading books that you had never heard of. Perhaps
there wouldn't even be a Bible? What happened to the books that are mentioned
in the Old Testament? The Book of the Wars of the Lord is mentioned in
Numbers 21. Joshua 10:13 mentions the Book of Jasher. First Chronicles
mentions the Book of Nathan and Gad while Second Chronicles mentions the Book
of Acts of Solomon. Where did they go? Why were they not chosen? Were they
deemed by vote to not be the word of God? If that is so, then why do books
they deemed to be the word of God mention the other books?
What happened to the extra books from the New Testament era? Books like the
Gospels according to Hebrews, Judas Iscariot, Peter, Marcion, Matthias, Eve,
and Philip. The Acts of Peter, Book of Judgment by Peter, Hymn of Christ,
Magical Book by Christ, and the Letter to Peter and Paul by Christ. If a
letter BY Christ didn't make the cut one has to wonder what criteria these
men were using to influence votes. These books have become collectively known
as the Apocrypha.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Here is some information on that infamous vote, and why I believe the Bible
is hugely decided by man, not God. Even if many of the writers were God
inspired, there is a LOT of room for mangling.
This is a short excerpt from a website for skeptics like myself.....
Imagine what the Bible would look like today if voting had gone differently?
In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the Council
of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus from man
to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and
the Passover was changed to Easter. So what does this say about the Bible? It
says that MEN, not god, composed the Bible. Apologist Richard Sisson, in his
book, Answering Christianity's Most Puzzling Questions (Volume 1), states,
"In fact, after the death of Jesus a whole flood of books that claimed to be
inspired appeared... [...] Disputes over which ones were true were so intense
that the debate continued for centuries. Finally in the fourth century a
group of church leaders called a council and took a vote. The 66 books that
comprised our cherished Bible were declared to be Scripture by a vote of 568
to 563."
568 to 563? If 5 people had voted differently the Bible would be nothing like
it is today. You would be reading books that you had never heard of. Perhaps
there wouldn't even be a Bible? What happened to the books that are mentioned
in the Old Testament? The Book of the Wars of the Lord is mentioned in
Numbers 21. Joshua 10:13 mentions the Book of Jasher. First Chronicles
mentions the Book of Nathan and Gad while Second Chronicles mentions the Book
of Acts of Solomon. Where did they go? Why were they not chosen? Were they
deemed by vote to not be the word of God? If that is so, then why do books
they deemed to be the word of God mention the other books?
What happened to the extra books from the New Testament era? Books like the
Gospels according to Hebrews, Judas Iscariot, Peter, Marcion, Matthias, Eve,
and Philip. The Acts of Peter, Book of Judgment by Peter, Hymn of Christ,
Magical Book by Christ, and the Letter to Peter and Paul by Christ. If a
letter BY Christ didn't make the cut one has to wonder what criteria these
men were using to influence votes. These books have become collectively known
as the Apocrypha.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
kayb85 <[email protected]>
> This is a short excerpt from a website for skeptics like myself.....Ren,
Could you give me the URL?
Sheila B
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/23/03 10:34:40 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< > This is a short excerpt from a website for skeptics like myself.....
Ren,
Could you give me the URL? >>
Guessing it's this:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
<< > This is a short excerpt from a website for skeptics like myself.....
Ren,
Could you give me the URL? >>
Guessing it's this:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Fetteroll
on 1/24/03 12:15 AM, starsuncloud@... at starsuncloud@... wrote:
been 565 to 566.
Joyce
> 568 to 563? If 5 people had voted differently the Bible would be nothing likeNo, even less than that. Just 3 people voting differently then it would have
> it is today.
been 565 to 566.
Joyce
Susan Fuerst
There is really an apocryphal book by Judas Iscariot???? Wonder how he
got that done before he hanged himself?
Susan, just curious
, but since you insist....
Here is some information on that infamous vote, and why I believe the
Bible
is hugely decided by man, not God. Even if many of the writers were God
inspired, there is a LOT of room for mangling.
This is a short excerpt from a website for skeptics like myself.....
Imagine what the Bible would look like today if voting had gone
differently?
In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the
Council
of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus
from man
to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday,
and
the Passover was changed to Easter. So what does this say about the
Bible? It
says that MEN, not god, composed the Bible. Apologist Richard Sisson, in
his
book, Answering Christianity's Most Puzzling Questions (Volume 1),
states,
"In fact, after the death of Jesus a whole flood of books that claimed
to be
inspired appeared... [...] Disputes over which ones were true were so
intense
that the debate continued for centuries. Finally in the fourth century a
group of church leaders called a council and took a vote. The 66 books
that
comprised our cherished Bible were declared to be Scripture by a vote of
568
to 563."
568 to 563? If 5 people had voted differently the Bible would be nothing
like
it is today. You would be reading books that you had never heard of.
Perhaps
there wouldn't even be a Bible? What happened to the books that are
mentioned
in the Old Testament? The Book of the Wars of the Lord is mentioned in
Numbers 21. Joshua 10:13 mentions the Book of Jasher. First Chronicles
mentions the Book of Nathan and Gad while Second Chronicles mentions the
Book
of Acts of Solomon. Where did they go? Why were they not chosen? Were
they
deemed by vote to not be the word of God? If that is so, then why do
books
they deemed to be the word of God mention the other books?
What happened to the extra books from the New Testament era? Books like
the
Gospels according to Hebrews, Judas Iscariot, Peter, Marcion, Matthias,
Eve,
and Philip. The Acts of Peter, Book of Judgment by Peter, Hymn of
Christ,
Magical Book by Christ, and the Letter to Peter and Paul by Christ. If a
letter BY Christ didn't make the cut one has to wonder what criteria
these
men were using to influence votes. These books have become collectively
known
as the Apocrypha.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
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got that done before he hanged himself?
Susan, just curious
, but since you insist....
Here is some information on that infamous vote, and why I believe the
Bible
is hugely decided by man, not God. Even if many of the writers were God
inspired, there is a LOT of room for mangling.
This is a short excerpt from a website for skeptics like myself.....
Imagine what the Bible would look like today if voting had gone
differently?
In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the
Council
of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus
from man
to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday,
and
the Passover was changed to Easter. So what does this say about the
Bible? It
says that MEN, not god, composed the Bible. Apologist Richard Sisson, in
his
book, Answering Christianity's Most Puzzling Questions (Volume 1),
states,
"In fact, after the death of Jesus a whole flood of books that claimed
to be
inspired appeared... [...] Disputes over which ones were true were so
intense
that the debate continued for centuries. Finally in the fourth century a
group of church leaders called a council and took a vote. The 66 books
that
comprised our cherished Bible were declared to be Scripture by a vote of
568
to 563."
568 to 563? If 5 people had voted differently the Bible would be nothing
like
it is today. You would be reading books that you had never heard of.
Perhaps
there wouldn't even be a Bible? What happened to the books that are
mentioned
in the Old Testament? The Book of the Wars of the Lord is mentioned in
Numbers 21. Joshua 10:13 mentions the Book of Jasher. First Chronicles
mentions the Book of Nathan and Gad while Second Chronicles mentions the
Book
of Acts of Solomon. Where did they go? Why were they not chosen? Were
they
deemed by vote to not be the word of God? If that is so, then why do
books
they deemed to be the word of God mention the other books?
What happened to the extra books from the New Testament era? Books like
the
Gospels according to Hebrews, Judas Iscariot, Peter, Marcion, Matthias,
Eve,
and Philip. The Acts of Peter, Book of Judgment by Peter, Hymn of
Christ,
Magical Book by Christ, and the Letter to Peter and Paul by Christ. If a
letter BY Christ didn't make the cut one has to wonder what criteria
these
men were using to influence votes. These books have become collectively
known
as the Apocrypha.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Shyrley
Susan Fuerst wrote:
Anymore than Solomon penned his book.
Shyrley
> There is really an apocryphal book by Judas Iscariot???? Wonder how heHistorical research seems to point to the fact that most of the bible books weren't actually written by the poeple the title claims did. So a book by Judas wouldn't necassarily of been written by him.
> got that done before he hanged himself?
>
> Susan, just curious
>
Anymore than Solomon penned his book.
Shyrley
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/03 9:55:15 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< There is really an apocryphal book by Judas Iscariot???? Wonder how he
got that done before he hanged himself? >>
Aaaah, but is that really how Judas died?
One book says he took his silver, bought a field and hung himself in it.
Another book says he threw his money down in the temple, ran out and his
bowels gushed out.
So either he "burst assunder" or he hung himself. I don't think anyone will
ever know which story is true, if either.
I would guess that he wrote it while he was with Jesus, or at least that's
what they'd have us believe.
There was a book supposedly written by Jesus father too, I just don't see how
books by Jesus and family weren't deemed worthy of being put in.
AND, I heard (but have not confirmed) that there is an article floating
around somehwere about research done on the OT. I guess there was a huge move
to control rebellion at some point and the entire OT up to 600 BC was rigged.
There are references to coins being used when coins were not in circulation
yet and such. I don't know how accurate this article is, haven't read it
myself.
It's interesting to ponder the possibilities though.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< There is really an apocryphal book by Judas Iscariot???? Wonder how he
got that done before he hanged himself? >>
Aaaah, but is that really how Judas died?
One book says he took his silver, bought a field and hung himself in it.
Another book says he threw his money down in the temple, ran out and his
bowels gushed out.
So either he "burst assunder" or he hung himself. I don't think anyone will
ever know which story is true, if either.
I would guess that he wrote it while he was with Jesus, or at least that's
what they'd have us believe.
There was a book supposedly written by Jesus father too, I just don't see how
books by Jesus and family weren't deemed worthy of being put in.
AND, I heard (but have not confirmed) that there is an article floating
around somehwere about research done on the OT. I guess there was a huge move
to control rebellion at some point and the entire OT up to 600 BC was rigged.
There are references to coins being used when coins were not in circulation
yet and such. I don't know how accurate this article is, haven't read it
myself.
It's interesting to ponder the possibilities though.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Have a Nice Day!
I"m going to just jump in here.
If anyone is interested in hearing some of the research that shows the differences between Judaism and Christianity, and learn about Christianity's origins, and why it has actualy lasted for 2000 years, go to Bet Emet Ministries.
I don't have a link, but if you do a google search, you'll find it.
I mention Judaism and Christianity because Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism, so its wise to start with Judaism and see why and at what point in history, Christianity became its own religion instead of just another sect of Judaism.
Kristen
If anyone is interested in hearing some of the research that shows the differences between Judaism and Christianity, and learn about Christianity's origins, and why it has actualy lasted for 2000 years, go to Bet Emet Ministries.
I don't have a link, but if you do a google search, you'll find it.
I mention Judaism and Christianity because Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism, so its wise to start with Judaism and see why and at what point in history, Christianity became its own religion instead of just another sect of Judaism.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: starsuncloud@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 11:43 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] unchurching to Mike
In a message dated 1/24/03 9:55:15 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< There is really an apocryphal book by Judas Iscariot???? Wonder how he
got that done before he hanged himself? >>
Aaaah, but is that really how Judas died?
One book says he took his silver, bought a field and hung himself in it.
Another book says he threw his money down in the temple, ran out and his
bowels gushed out.
So either he "burst assunder" or he hung himself. I don't think anyone will
ever know which story is true, if either.
I would guess that he wrote it while he was with Jesus, or at least that's
what they'd have us believe.
There was a book supposedly written by Jesus father too, I just don't see how
books by Jesus and family weren't deemed worthy of being put in.
AND, I heard (but have not confirmed) that there is an article floating
around somehwere about research done on the OT. I guess there was a huge move
to control rebellion at some point and the entire OT up to 600 BC was rigged.
There are references to coins being used when coins were not in circulation
yet and such. I don't know how accurate this article is, haven't read it
myself.
It's interesting to ponder the possibilities though.
Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi <[email protected]>
The Bible doesn't say that Judas bought himself a field with the
silver. One account has Judas hanging himself, and another account
has him falling and bursting asunder. If you think about it, a dead
body, after a few days, falling from the limb it was hanging on, or
the limb breaking...it would VERY EASILY burst asunder and its bowels
gush out. Ugh.
Have you ever read a biography of, say George Washington? Then read
another Washington bio by a different author. would they be
identical? no. No more than the four writers of the gospels used
identical words...different authors, different words, different
events highlighted.
Heidi
silver. One account has Judas hanging himself, and another account
has him falling and bursting asunder. If you think about it, a dead
body, after a few days, falling from the limb it was hanging on, or
the limb breaking...it would VERY EASILY burst asunder and its bowels
gush out. Ugh.
Have you ever read a biography of, say George Washington? Then read
another Washington bio by a different author. would they be
identical? no. No more than the four writers of the gospels used
identical words...different authors, different words, different
events highlighted.
Heidi
--- In [email protected], starsuncloud@c... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/24/03 9:55:15 AM Central Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << There is really an apocryphal book by Judas Iscariot???? Wonder
how he
> got that done before he hanged himself? >>
>
> Aaaah, but is that really how Judas died?
> One book says he took his silver, bought a field and hung himself
in it.
> Another book says he threw his money down in the temple, ran out
and his
> bowels gushed out.
> So either he "burst assunder" or he hung himself. I don't think
anyone will
> ever know which story is true, if either.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/24/03 2:38:18 PM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
<< Have you ever read a biography of, say George Washington? Then read
another Washington bio by a different author. would they be
identical? no. No more than the four writers of the gospels used
identical words...different authors, different words, different
events highlighted. >>
Well then where does the inerrant hand of God come in? If the Bible never
contradicts itself (as some say)...
Oh, never mind. I already know.
It's just a sad, sad irritation to know that there are homeschooled children
by the multitudes out there whose parents tell them the Bible never
contradicts itself, and that the world is 6,000 years old.
No wonder people think homeschooling is wrong and dangerous to society.
Sandra
<< Have you ever read a biography of, say George Washington? Then read
another Washington bio by a different author. would they be
identical? no. No more than the four writers of the gospels used
identical words...different authors, different words, different
events highlighted. >>
Well then where does the inerrant hand of God come in? If the Bible never
contradicts itself (as some say)...
Oh, never mind. I already know.
It's just a sad, sad irritation to know that there are homeschooled children
by the multitudes out there whose parents tell them the Bible never
contradicts itself, and that the world is 6,000 years old.
No wonder people think homeschooling is wrong and dangerous to society.
Sandra
Have a Nice Day!
Can you send me some links.
I would like to read more about this.
Over the last two years, I've learned a lot about the origins of the church, some of which you mentioned here. But the rest, like Saturday being the Sabbath while Sunday being the Lord's Day is new to me.
I have taken the path of a Noahide myself, which is the gentile sect of Judaism and follows the Seven Laws of Noah, the first covenant made between G-d and man.
THanks,
Kristen
I would like to read more about this.
Over the last two years, I've learned a lot about the origins of the church, some of which you mentioned here. But the rest, like Saturday being the Sabbath while Sunday being the Lord's Day is new to me.
I have taken the path of a Noahide myself, which is the gentile sect of Judaism and follows the Seven Laws of Noah, the first covenant made between G-d and man.
THanks,
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: sennmanor@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unchurching to Mike
In a message dated 1/24/2003 1:51:58 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
> Imagine what the Bible would look like today if voting had gone differently?
>
> In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the Council
>
> of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus from
> man
> to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and
> the Passover was changed to Easter. So what does this say about the Bible?
> It
> says that MEN, not god, composed the Bible.
I would hope that parents are helping their children to gain a more nuanced
understanding of history than this kind of statement represents.
So, for example, if they read that Emperor Constantine was not baptized until
his death bed, is the point brought out that he was a Christian catechumen?
As a "student" Christian he was not a pagan.
Why did Constantine convene a council of the whole church throughout the
Roman Empire? (The word "catholic," by the way, means "according to the
whole.") He banked on using Christianity to renovate the Roman Empire, and
therefore thought the bishops had to get their act together since there
seemed to be disagreements among and within the local churches in various
cities and provinces. So he convened the first ecumenical (empire-wide)
council of all the bishops of the church and asked them to set forth the
beliefs and practices of the church. In the process they produced a creed
that was constructed by comparing all the baptismal professions of faith used
in the local churches. They produced a canon of Scripture by comparing the
books read in the local Christian assemblies. In the battle against
gnosticism Christian assemblies had already agreed to four canonical gospels
and excluded gospels they regarded as gnostic. They accepted the canon of
Old Testament books that the Jewish rabbis had already established, although
they changed the order in the Old Testament so that the prophetic books came
last. They believed that all of these books in the Old and now in the
canonized New Testaments were inspired. The bishops affirmed the doctrine of
the Trinity (which necessarily includes the co-divinity of Christ with the
Father and the Holy Spirit) by appealing to the statements in the gospels and
epistles and the devotional practices of their people. Confessing one God in
three co-equal persons excluded the Arians who taught that the Son was
subordinate to the Father. They synchronized the Christian calender
throughout the Empire by agreeing that the Pascha (later called "Easter" by
the Anglo-Saxons) should be observed on the first Sunday after the first full
moon of spring and not on the 14th of Nisan, as the Christians of Asia Minor
had been doing. So Rome won on this one.
After the Council Constantine decreed that Sunday would be a day of rest
throughout the Empire. That meant that sabbath ideas were transferred to the
Lord's Day. But catholic Christianity has always understood that the Lord's
Day and the Sabbath are two different days. In the Latin church calendar
Saturday is still called "Sabbato" ("of rest") and Sunday is called "Dominca"
("of the Lord").
I would hope that homeschoolers would learn to understand the dynamics at
work in history, and not just facts which, in and of themselves, might not be
true. or conclusions which usually, in the study of history, are untrue. As
I've tried to indicate by the above discussion---as an illustration of this
principle---it simply would not be true that Constantine remained a pagan or
that he turned Sunday into the Sabbath. The reality was more complicated
than that.
Frank and Mary, lurkers until now, parents of 3, one still homeschooling,
learning tons on this list
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
By the way....and please take this or leave it, whatever suits you.....
I was a Christian and I've done a great deal of studying about Judaism, which was supposed to be the origin of Christianity. What I discovered is *not* what I was taught in church.
According to Judaism, there were Noahides first, and then a subset of Noahides became Jews as Mt. Sinai. The Jews were to be the "priests to all nations", but all the other nations were never required to convert to Judaism to go to heaven. Gentiles had their own covenant, the covenant of Noah.
Many people today who consider themselves "spiritual but not religious" would be comfortable with the Seven Laws of Noah.
I hope its ok to post this here, since we are discussing different faiths anyway. But here are the Seven Laws of Noah:
1. Do not murder
2. Do not worship idols
3. Do not have illicit sexual relations (this does not refer to premarital sex by the way, it refers to a specific list of illicit acts).
4. Do not eat the limb of a living animal (this is to discourage animal cruelty).
5. Do not commit theft
6. Do not blaspheme, which means not using G-d's name to curse Him or any of His creation. (G-d's name is more than just the term "G-d"._
7. Establish courts of justice
Kristen
I was a Christian and I've done a great deal of studying about Judaism, which was supposed to be the origin of Christianity. What I discovered is *not* what I was taught in church.
According to Judaism, there were Noahides first, and then a subset of Noahides became Jews as Mt. Sinai. The Jews were to be the "priests to all nations", but all the other nations were never required to convert to Judaism to go to heaven. Gentiles had their own covenant, the covenant of Noah.
Many people today who consider themselves "spiritual but not religious" would be comfortable with the Seven Laws of Noah.
I hope its ok to post this here, since we are discussing different faiths anyway. But here are the Seven Laws of Noah:
1. Do not murder
2. Do not worship idols
3. Do not have illicit sexual relations (this does not refer to premarital sex by the way, it refers to a specific list of illicit acts).
4. Do not eat the limb of a living animal (this is to discourage animal cruelty).
5. Do not commit theft
6. Do not blaspheme, which means not using G-d's name to curse Him or any of His creation. (G-d's name is more than just the term "G-d"._
7. Establish courts of justice
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Have a Nice Day!
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unchurching to Mike
Can you send me some links.
I would like to read more about this.
Over the last two years, I've learned a lot about the origins of the church, some of which you mentioned here. But the rest, like Saturday being the Sabbath while Sunday being the Lord's Day is new to me.
I have taken the path of a Noahide myself, which is the gentile sect of Judaism and follows the Seven Laws of Noah, the first covenant made between G-d and man.
THanks,
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: sennmanor@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unchurching to Mike
In a message dated 1/24/2003 1:51:58 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
> Imagine what the Bible would look like today if voting had gone differently?
>
> In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the Council
>
> of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus from
> man
> to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and
> the Passover was changed to Easter. So what does this say about the Bible?
> It
> says that MEN, not god, composed the Bible.
I would hope that parents are helping their children to gain a more nuanced
understanding of history than this kind of statement represents.
So, for example, if they read that Emperor Constantine was not baptized until
his death bed, is the point brought out that he was a Christian catechumen?
As a "student" Christian he was not a pagan.
Why did Constantine convene a council of the whole church throughout the
Roman Empire? (The word "catholic," by the way, means "according to the
whole.") He banked on using Christianity to renovate the Roman Empire, and
therefore thought the bishops had to get their act together since there
seemed to be disagreements among and within the local churches in various
cities and provinces. So he convened the first ecumenical (empire-wide)
council of all the bishops of the church and asked them to set forth the
beliefs and practices of the church. In the process they produced a creed
that was constructed by comparing all the baptismal professions of faith used
in the local churches. They produced a canon of Scripture by comparing the
books read in the local Christian assemblies. In the battle against
gnosticism Christian assemblies had already agreed to four canonical gospels
and excluded gospels they regarded as gnostic. They accepted the canon of
Old Testament books that the Jewish rabbis had already established, although
they changed the order in the Old Testament so that the prophetic books came
last. They believed that all of these books in the Old and now in the
canonized New Testaments were inspired. The bishops affirmed the doctrine of
the Trinity (which necessarily includes the co-divinity of Christ with the
Father and the Holy Spirit) by appealing to the statements in the gospels and
epistles and the devotional practices of their people. Confessing one God in
three co-equal persons excluded the Arians who taught that the Son was
subordinate to the Father. They synchronized the Christian calender
throughout the Empire by agreeing that the Pascha (later called "Easter" by
the Anglo-Saxons) should be observed on the first Sunday after the first full
moon of spring and not on the 14th of Nisan, as the Christians of Asia Minor
had been doing. So Rome won on this one.
After the Council Constantine decreed that Sunday would be a day of rest
throughout the Empire. That meant that sabbath ideas were transferred to the
Lord's Day. But catholic Christianity has always understood that the Lord's
Day and the Sabbath are two different days. In the Latin church calendar
Saturday is still called "Sabbato" ("of rest") and Sunday is called "Dominca"
("of the Lord").
I would hope that homeschoolers would learn to understand the dynamics at
work in history, and not just facts which, in and of themselves, might not be
true. or conclusions which usually, in the study of history, are untrue. As
I've tried to indicate by the above discussion---as an illustration of this
principle---it simply would not be true that Constantine remained a pagan or
that he turned Sunday into the Sabbath. The reality was more complicated
than that.
Frank and Mary, lurkers until now, parents of 3, one still homeschooling,
learning tons on this list
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