[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 9:43:49 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< I know that I am really verging on pest here! >>

You know what Erin? I don't think that is true at all....I think your honest,
probing questions and willingness to consider the answers is what makes for
great conversation.
And learning and paradigm shifts and......
well, you get what I'm saying! :)

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 9:43:49 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< << I guess part of my problem is still that I feel like it shouldn't
always be
me asking. I feel like they should notice too. >> >>

I understand this, but it's silly. It's like saying "My husband should just
KNOW what I need"
Communication is key.
We are likely to only be disappointed by having an attitude like this,
although it's hard not to sometimes.

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

Jim Selvage

Ren,

Thanks, I am just trying to make sure that I everyone still continues to
feel that way. I appreciate the encouragement! It really is a difficult
shift. I am not going from total control to this framework (in fact most
everyone I know would say I have always been too lenient - they are big
about responsibility, getting up early stuff around here), but just the
changing in the philosophy is definitely teaching me to be a kinder and
gentler parent!

Thank you ALL for helping me along this journey.

erin in nd (where we are actually having an above zero day!)

>
> You know what Erin? I don't think that is true at all....I think your
honest,
> probing questions and willingness to consider the answers is what makes
for
> great conversation.
> And learning and paradigm shifts and......
> well, you get what I'm saying! :)
>
> Ren
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/03 2:14:39 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< I do agree with that, so I would like my children to happily help without
being asked, : - ) >>

The best way to get happy helpers is to be a happy person yourself.
If I happily (not sarcastically) clean for others, I am setting a beautiful
example AND I tend to get happier helpers.
The whole point of doing things the way it is being discussed here is to
1)get better LONG term results and 2) have a happier homelife
It works. Really and truly. I know it's so hard to believe, but if you're
patient, have realistic expectations and be a happy, joyful cleaner of the
home, you get positive results.
It's tough for kids to be mean and snarky or unhelpful in the face of joy and
gratitude!!

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], starsuncloud@c... wrote:>
The best way to get happy helpers is to be a happy person yourself.
> If I happily (not sarcastically) clean for others, I am setting a
beautiful
> example AND I tend to get happier helpers.

Ren I just had to comment.

My kids have been doing their clean up routine for years. So all of
this thinking is new to me. But something you said earlier really
clicked. I got to thinking about how I like to reinforce the stuff I
approve or appreciate in my kids.

When I see one act kindly, I try to immediately say so. If one of my
kids shares a toy, gives up a computer turn or helps a sibling load a
program, I notice outloud so all can hear.

Well today it ocurred to me that I probably take their help for
granted because it is what we have always done and expect them to do.
I'm not an ogre, by any means, but I don't often notice the hard work
they put in with the same level of enthusiasm.

So today, I really paid attention to any time a child spontaneously
did an act of clean up. I saw one child volunteer to clean the floors
with a broom. Another child carried my plate to the sink twice in one
day after serving me a snack. Another one put away his toys without
anyone asking him to.

I noticed and commented each time. Then later I thanked them very
sincerely for all of their hard work in our home every day and every
week. One of them said, "Oh mom. We don't do enough, really." (I
realized then that that is probably waht I've communicated!) I
replied, "Actually, I think you guys do a ton of stuff to make this
place run smoothly and I totally appreciate it."

Later at bedtime, the same one said, "That was nice of you to say we
work hard. I didn't we did." Then I told him that I was wondering if
they would want to keep doing their chores if I gve them a free
choice. Both the one who is the most considerate of all the kids and
the one who likes to do his work the least said, "yes." That stunned
me. Iasked why. They said, "because the house looks better and feels
better when we do it and it's a lot for you to do alone."

Well... what a great onversation we had and I am so grateful for some
new awareness of my kids.

And I spontaneously did multiple sinks worth of dishes today to help
out the washer who had a big social life planned for today. In the
past, I probably wouldn't have thought of it.

Thanks.
Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/2003 10:56:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:


> Well... what a great onversation we had and I am so grateful for some
> new awareness of my kids.
>
> And I spontaneously did multiple sinks worth of dishes today to help
> out the washer who had a big social life planned for today. In the
> past, I probably wouldn't have thought of it.
>
>

WOW!

Big step! COOL!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/03 8:56:04 PM, julie@... writes:

<< Well... what a great onversation we had and I am so grateful for some
new awareness of my kids.

<<And I spontaneously did multiple sinks worth of dishes today to help
out the washer who had a big social life planned for today. In the
past, I probably wouldn't have thought of it. >>

Thanks for sharing that, Julie. I had been feeling bad, like we were bugging
the heck out of you with our weirdo ideas.

I'm glad it made for some special moments and thoughts and words. I'm glad
you told us.

Sandra

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/24/03 8:56:04 PM, julie@b... writes:
>
> << Well... what a great onversation we had and I am so grateful
for some
> new awareness of my kids.
>
> <<And I spontaneously did multiple sinks worth of dishes
today to help
> out the washer who had a big social life planned for today. In
the
> past, I probably wouldn't have thought of it. >>
>
> Thanks for sharing that, Julie. I had been feeling bad, like we
were bugging
> the heck out of you with our weirdo ideas.

Your ideas aren't weird; they're just new. I have to keep chewing
on them. And I hope I'm not bugging you with all my "yeah, buts."
I've been at this a long time and have a really harmonious home,
Really. We have great rapport with our kids.

I got interested in radical unschooling because of the
stranglehold college prep was having over us. I suddenly felt
forced to consider hs for the older kids and I just didn't want to do
it!

So I came here to get support to let go and let them really
self-educate even in the face of college. I didn't bargain on
rearranging chores and bedtimes and foods and TV time! LOL
But I'm so glad that I get the *whole* picture now. Really. I feel
like I'm just extending how we already parent to a deeper
philosophical congruence.

Thank you for taking the time to share with new ones like me.

Julie B

Jim Selvage

Ren,

Thanks. This was the conclusion I came to yesterday, nice to know I am
somewhat on track, at least in my thinking. I will work on the actions! <g>.

thanks,
erin

> << I do agree with that, so I would like my children to happily help
without
> being asked, : - ) >>
>
> The best way to get happy helpers is to be a happy person yourself.
> If I happily (not sarcastically) clean for others, I am setting a
beautiful
> example AND I tend to get happier helpers.
> The whole point of doing things the way it is being discussed here is to
> 1)get better LONG term results and 2) have a happier homelife
> It works. Really and truly. I know it's so hard to believe, but if you're
> patient, have realistic expectations and be a happy, joyful cleaner of the
> home, you get positive results.
> It's tough for kids to be mean and snarky or unhelpful in the face of joy
and
> gratitude!!
>
> Ren

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/25/03 10:20:28 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< I know now from other posts that the reason you are able to do this is
because of your relationship with Marty, and that is as it should be. It is
just different coming to this in the middle of the teen years and I am
trying to figure out how to do it for us. >>

I have thought about this topic a lot lately.
It's one thing to always raise children in the atmosphere of trust and
respect, it's another thing entirely to come to it when they're older.
I think many of the qualities that need to be there in order for this style
of parenting to be smooth and effective are already damaged.
I am SO lucky that I figured this all out before my kids were very old....I
still see where the lousy way I handled things has really affected Trevor.
But the further we go, the more I treat him respectfully and kindly, the
better it gets.
I think it just takes more trust and patience on the parents part in order to
get to a good place, having not done this all along.

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

Jim Selvage

Julie,

"I got interested in radical unschooling because of the
stranglehold college prep was having over us. I suddenly felt forced to
consider hs for the older kids and I just didn't want to do it!"

That is exactly the reason I came to this board too Julie. You have stated
it so well!

blessings,
erin

Mary Bianco

>From: starsuncloud@...

<< (snip)I think it just takes more trust and patience on the parents part
in order to get to a good place, having not done this all along.>>


But the very important thing to remember is that it CAN be done. Although
Tara went to school and was raised differently then the other 3, she is
pretty much in the same place as I would want her to be as if she was raised
her whole life with the mindset we have now. And there were many years where
we did an awful job of parenting. Although we have always been easy going
with bedtime and food and such, well we have gone through times where Tara
was punished to the point where there was nothing left to take away from
her. It was rough and we all paid dearly for it, but things worked out
better than I ever thought they could. It takes a lot of hard work and
patience up the ying yang, but it's worth it.

Mary B

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail