Alan & Brenda Leonard

Ok, I have to throw my two cents in on this one.

If you have come from a church that is firm in its need for everyone to be
indoctrinated, you should know that there are other sorts of churches in the
world. There are churches where the sermon is designed to make you think,
to challenge you to see God in a different way. There are churches that
worship in three completely different ways on Sundays, but still are held
together by a common foundation of faith.

I don't agree with everyone who worships at my church. I have been a part
of 9 churches in my 10 years of marriage (military...we move a lot!). While
my beliefs aren't a perfect match for perhaps any church, I've had clergy
who encourage me to read, study, think, pray, and consider why I believe
what I do believe, so I can grow personally. Much like I do as an
unschooler.

Here's what you miss when you don't go to church: community. I regularly
hear from people on this list that they're so glad to find this group,
because they don't know any other unschoolers. So I know that community is
important to us.

Community isn't necessary, plenty of folks believe and are comfortable being
alone in their faith. But community does provide you with much support.
Don't give up on churches entirely because you haven't found one that
doesn't ask you to check your brain at the door. They're out there.
Really.

brenda
Episcopalian and proud of it.


1/21/03 04:37:

> I never liked the group
> thinking mentality of church, or any other corporate entity for that
> matter. I get so tired of hearing "we believe" and "we think" that I just
> want to scream "NO! WHAT DO *YOU* BELIEVE! WHAT DO *YOU* THINK!" Anytime
> an entire group of people *think* the same thing, there is no thinking at
> all, imo. I have come to the belief that a vast majority of people like
> to be indoctrinated. It releases them of all responsibility and reason.
> If everyone at a church believed God could only be worshipped in one way,
> I would doubt the motives of the church. If everyone on a list thought
> that there was only one way of unschooling, I would seriously have doubts
> about the integrity of the list. Even though we sometimes disagree, I
> value the free-thinking-ness of this list. Unfortunately, I have yet to
> find a church
> that offers the same.

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Alan & Brenda
Leonard <abtleo@e...> wrote:

>
> Community isn't necessary, plenty of folks believe and are
comfortable being
> alone in their faith. But community does provide you with much
support.
> Don't give up on churches entirely because you haven't found
one that
> doesn't ask you to check your brain at the door. They're out
there.
> Really.
>
> brenda
> Episcopalian and proud of it.

Gotta agree with you here. We're still trying to figure out if we can
handle the old style church liturgy with the progressive
mindedness of the Episcopals. Sure enjoy reading Spong and
Borg though.

Good points.

Julie B

[email protected]

On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:52:33 +0100 Alan & Brenda Leonard
> If you have come from a church that is firm in its need for everyone
> to be indoctrinated, you should know that there are other sorts of
> churches in the world.

I'm sure that there are. I've yet to find one. And I don't know that the
churches are all in *need* for everyone to be indoctrinated. And to give
churches the benefit of the doubt, a lot of times it is just the pastors
who are unknowingly passing down the indoctrination they were fed at the
seminaries. Neither here nor there, the end result is the same.

>While my beliefs aren't a perfect match for perhaps any church, I've
had
> clergy who encourage me to read, study, think, pray, and consider why I

> believe what I do believe, so I can grow personally. Much like I do as
an
> unschooler.

I guess that I am not looking for somebody to encourage me to read,
study, think, and pray. I have family and friends for that if I need it.
When I go to church I am looking for honesty, consistency, and
conviction. I'm searching for someone who wants to preach the Word of
God, at whatever cost. Someone who doesn't let the highest contributor of
the church dictate what topics are "taboo". Someone that won't let his
sermons be limited in content in exchange for nonprofit status. Someone
who has his own life in order before he tries to change someone elses.
Someone who's foremost thought is to preach the truth, even at the cost
of empty seats. I don't need or want sermons to be candy coated or
softened, to be given milk when I'm asking for meat. Like with
unschooling, there are many "soft" lists out there, I choose this one
because it actually gets to the bone.

> Here's what you miss when you don't go to church: community

I agree, if by community you mean fellowship. But small group bible
studies can fill in this void.

> Community isn't necessary, plenty of folks believe and are
> comfortable being alone in their faith. But community does provide you
with
>much support.

I don't know that anyone prefers being alone. But loneliness is sometimes
easier handled than disappointment. I have not experienced the church
community providing much support, at least not without an "attaboy" close
by. When people do something for somebody, it should be done for the
blessing of being able to, not for some tangible reward or pat on the
back. I have had many total strangers be kinder to me than the people I
saw every Sunday. And have had many deep philosophical discussions with
people who have never set foot in a church.

> Don't give up on churches entirely because you haven't found one
> that doesn't ask you to check your brain at the door. They're out
> there. Really.

I believe you, and am happy for you if you found one that fits you.
I won't give up the idea of fellowshipping with like-believers, but I
won't be actively searching out an organized religion or a building to
pray in.
Wende

________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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kayb85 <[email protected]>

A big part of what bothers me about churches is the clergy/laity
distinction. The whole idea of sermons and no input from the
congregation REALLY bothers me. I don't think that church was meant
to be a performance that we watch but a community that we participate
in.
Sheila

--- In [email protected], love-it-here@j... wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:52:33 +0100 Alan & Brenda Leonard
> > If you have come from a church that is firm in its need for
everyone
> > to be indoctrinated, you should know that there are other sorts
of
> > churches in the world.
>
> I'm sure that there are. I've yet to find one. And I don't know
that the
> churches are all in *need* for everyone to be indoctrinated. And to
give
> churches the benefit of the doubt, a lot of times it is just the
pastors
> who are unknowingly passing down the indoctrination they were fed
at the
> seminaries. Neither here nor there, the end result is the same.
>
> >While my beliefs aren't a perfect match for perhaps any church,
I've
> had
> > clergy who encourage me to read, study, think, pray, and consider
why I
>
> > believe what I do believe, so I can grow personally. Much like I
do as
> an
> > unschooler.
>
> I guess that I am not looking for somebody to encourage me to read,
> study, think, and pray. I have family and friends for that if I
need it.
> When I go to church I am looking for honesty, consistency, and
> conviction. I'm searching for someone who wants to preach the Word
of
> God, at whatever cost. Someone who doesn't let the highest
contributor of
> the church dictate what topics are "taboo". Someone that won't let
his
> sermons be limited in content in exchange for nonprofit status.
Someone
> who has his own life in order before he tries to change someone
elses.
> Someone who's foremost thought is to preach the truth, even at the
cost
> of empty seats. I don't need or want sermons to be candy coated or
> softened, to be given milk when I'm asking for meat. Like with
> unschooling, there are many "soft" lists out there, I choose this
one
> because it actually gets to the bone.
>
> > Here's what you miss when you don't go to church: community
>
> I agree, if by community you mean fellowship. But small group bible
> studies can fill in this void.
>
> > Community isn't necessary, plenty of folks believe and are
> > comfortable being alone in their faith. But community does
provide you
> with
> >much support.
>
> I don't know that anyone prefers being alone. But loneliness is
sometimes
> easier handled than disappointment. I have not experienced the
church
> community providing much support, at least not without an "attaboy"
close
> by. When people do something for somebody, it should be done for the
> blessing of being able to, not for some tangible reward or pat on
the
> back. I have had many total strangers be kinder to me than the
people I
> saw every Sunday. And have had many deep philosophical discussions
with
> people who have never set foot in a church.
>
> > Don't give up on churches entirely because you haven't found one
> > that doesn't ask you to check your brain at the door. They're
out
> > there. Really.
>
> I believe you, and am happy for you if you found one that fits you.
> I won't give up the idea of fellowshipping with like-believers, but
I
> won't be actively searching out an organized religion or a building
to
> pray in.
> Wende
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com

Alan & Brenda Leonard

1/21/03 22:41:

> Gotta agree with you here. We're still trying to figure out if we can
> handle the old style church liturgy with the progressive
> mindedness of the Episcopals. Sure enjoy reading Spong and
> Borg though.
>
> Good points.

I've forgotten where you live, Julie, But if you're in a big enough area
you might find a church that does a very contemporary service. Think of
liturgy as the framework of the house. You can design the things any way
you want, but they all gotta have doors, windows, floors, ceilings, etc.
That's liturgy. Some places hang some very different looking doors and
windows!

FYI, some of the Methodists and Presbyterians are pretty liberal without all
the old style liturgy, although each denomination also has a conservative
branch as well. ELCA Lutherans for the most part do the same liturgy, with
fewer words. (Episcopalians are wordy!)

I often go church shopping on the internet. Most places have webpages that
are VERY revealing.

brenda

Kelli Traaseth

**ELCA Lutherans for the most part do the same liturgy, **

This is the church that I am unchurching from, I do think that they tend to be on the more liberal side, but not quite liberal enough for me! And each congregation can have its own personality, even if the synod says its going to be a certain way, doesn't mean the members are going to be that way!

What's been interesting around here is explaining to the kids why we aren't going to church right now. Very good conversations. Although if they wanted to go, I'd take them, hasn't happened tho'.

Kelli


Alan & Brenda Leonard <abtleo@...> wrote:1/21/03 22:41:

> Gotta agree with you here. We're still trying to figure out if we can
> handle the old style church liturgy with the progressive
> mindedness of the Episcopals. Sure enjoy reading Spong and
> Borg though.
>
> Good points.

I've forgotten where you live, Julie, But if you're in a big enough area
you might find a church that does a very contemporary service. Think of
liturgy as the framework of the house. You can design the things any way
you want, but they all gotta have doors, windows, floors, ceilings, etc.
That's liturgy. Some places hang some very different looking doors and
windows!

FYI, some of the Methodists and Presbyterians are pretty liberal without all
the old style liturgy, although each denomination also has a conservative
branch as well. ELCA Lutherans for the most part do the same liturgy, with
fewer words. (Episcopalians are wordy!)

I often go church shopping on the internet. Most places have webpages that
are VERY revealing.

brenda


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike Ebbers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], love-it-here@j... wrote:
> I won't give up the idea of fellowshipping with like-believers, but
>I won't be actively searching out an organized religion or a
>building to pray in.

Although at first it sounds like you are giving up on a vital
institution in Christianity, there is actually a belief these days
that the institutional church (organized denominations with
buildings) are not carrying out the Christian mission anymore, and
true Christians should get out and seek other ways to live out their
faith.

One proponent of that belief is Harold Camping, and here is his
website on that subject: http://www.lmsusa.com/Scripts/Job1/H%
20Camping%20Bible%20teachings.html

Naturally there is disagreement, and here is a website to the
contrary:
http://www.familyradioiswrong.com/

I haven't studied either website (so don't flame me if you don't like
them) but, in my opinion, if you can't find a true solid Christ-
centered church and pastor, you are making the right choice to seek
fellowship and fulfillment outside a church. Several Christian women
on this and other lists have stated that they are unchurching for
various yet similar reasons to yours.

I would encourage anyone who unchurches to study the Bible daily to
keep up your spiritual enthusiasm. The devil can quite easily
convince you to slack off and get discouraged about life, but the
Bible does a perfect job of chasing him off.

Mike

Alan & Brenda Leonard

1/22/03 12:16:

> I believe you, and am happy for you if you found one that fits you.
> I won't give up the idea of fellowshipping with like-believers, but I
> won't be actively searching out an organized religion or a building to
> pray in.

I was writing to the entire group, not you personnally. You are certainly
welcome to enjoy the fellowship of no one, or of small group Bible studies,
as you point out. However, you said:

> I guess that I am not looking for somebody to encourage me to read,
> study, think, and pray. I have family and friends for that if I need it.

My family is several thousand miles away. My church is my family and
friends. It's not a perfect place. It's full of the fallible sort of
people you meet everywhere else. But I hear a lot of people who have left
the church believing there is absolutely no place for them there. But
different churches can be different. That was merely my point.

Forgive me if I was upsetting.

brenda

Fetteroll

on 1/22/03 2:01 AM, Mike Ebbers <mikeebb@...> at mikeebb@...
wrote:

> I would encourage anyone who unchurches to study the Bible daily to
> keep up your spiritual enthusiasm. The devil can quite easily
> convince you to slack off and get discouraged about life, but the
> Bible does a perfect job of chasing him off.

And this is getting into the realm of proselytizing.

Sharing what we find is spiritually meaningful for ourselves is okay.
Telling others what they need to do to find the spiritual fulfillment you
find meaningful is not okay.

What you accept as obvious truths (like the devil) are not truths even to
all Christians.

Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator

Susan Fuerst

Julie,
Have you checked College Hill Presbyterian?(Maybe North College Hill) I
don't know tons about it, but from what I've heard.....it's probably
worth a check.
Susan

1/21/03 22:41:

> Gotta agree with you here. We're still trying to figure out if we can
> handle the old style church liturgy with the progressive
> mindedness of the Episcopals. Sure enjoy reading Spong and
> Borg though.
>
> Good points.

I've forgotten where you live, Julie, But if you're in a big enough
area
you might find a church that does a very contemporary service. Think of
liturgy as the framework of the house. You can design the things any
way
you want, but they all gotta have doors, windows, floors, ceilings, etc.
That's liturgy. Some places hang some very different looking doors and
windows!

FYI, some of the Methodists and Presbyterians are pretty liberal without
all
the old style liturgy, although each denomination also has a
conservative
branch as well. ELCA Lutherans for the most part do the same liturgy,
with
fewer words. (Episcopalians are wordy!)

I often go church shopping on the internet. Most places have webpages
that
are VERY revealing.

brenda


~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list
owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
an email to:
[email protected]

Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "Susan Fuerst"
<fuerst@f...> wrote:
> Julie,
> Have you checked College Hill Presbyterian?(Maybe North
College Hill) I
> don't know tons about it, but from what I've heard.....it's
probably
> worth a check.
> Susan

Thank Susan. Have. The Presbyterians and I have "issues." :)

But I appreciate the suggestion.

Julie B

Mike Ebbers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
>Sharing what we find is spiritually meaningful for ourselves is
>okay. Telling others what they need to do to find the spiritual
>fulfillment you find meaningful is not okay.

I've read of a number of families who are unchurching, often as part
of their unschooling. They cite differences in philosophy and
theology, and have even received criticism of their lifestyle. I
(and perhaps they) can relate to whomever said "I love mankind; it's
people I can't stand." I personally have visited a lot of churches
that make me wonder what their purpose is; it doesn't seem to be the
traditional one of praising and thanking God.

My family and I belong to a church that we all love. But when we
can't get to church, we read a portion of the Bible as a family, or
listen to a segment on tape. The kids will retain what they heard
and be able to apply it to life for months or years afterwards
(rather to my surprise).

If I didn't have a supportive, enjoyable church to attend, I would
spend regular time in the Bible. Among its 66 books, I can always
find a chapter that applies to my situation, to encourage me or to
give me advice.

Mike

Susan Fuerst

. Among its 66 books, I can always
find a chapter that applies to my situation, to encourage me or to
give me advice.

Mike



Gee, Mike, even this 66 book thing is a problem for some.....ya know
those Catholics have more books in their Bibles. And some people have
read a lot of the Gnostic gospels, though that doesn't make them part of
the Bible....though looking into why they didn't make the 'cut' might be
a valuable experience.
Susan

Mike Ebbers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], "Susan Fuerst"
<fuerst@f...> wrote:
>Catholics have more books in their Bibles. And some people have
> read a lot of the Gnostic gospels, though that doesn't make them
>part of the Bible....though looking into why they didn't make
>the 'cut' might be a valuable experience.

Good points. I have some ideas but don't know the history. When my
kids are older (now 11, 9, 7) I will want to be able to explain how
the 66 books of the Protestant Bible were chosen, as well as why the
Catholic Bible has a few more and why the Gnostic gospels were not
chosen. I believe that God was involved in the selection of books
and speaks to anyone who reads the Bible.

I am willing to discuss this offline with anyone interested. I have
included two web references below, one for how the books were chosen
and one about Gnostic gospels.

Mike
mikeebb@...

1. http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canons.stm This website states
that "decisions about which books were "in" and which books
were "out" in relation to today's Bible usually were not made by a
single group of people at a single point of history. Canonization
(selection of which books were put in the Bible) was a process that
went through several stages and took many centuries. These stages
were not separate but sometimes overlapped."

2. http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/gnostic.html A web page
about the Gnostic gospels from a feminist viewpoint

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/22/03 11:08:16 AM, mikeebb@... writes:

<< I will want to be able to explain how
the 66 books of the Protestant Bible were chosen, as well as why the
Catholic Bible has a few more and why the Gnostic gospels were not
chosen. >>

Good luck.
There aren't records of the discussions on which those decisions were based.
Just speculation.


Interestingly, those people who have been solidly involved with the very same
religion or denomination or church all their lives often know the least about
religion as a whole (or about Christianity as a whole).

It's like being in a well and looking at the sky. The little patch of sky
you see if you're in the American Baptist Convention's hole isn't the same as
you'd see from the Southern Baptists' hole, and you certainly can't BEGIN to
see the Episcopal hole from there. And the Catholic hole bit as the Atlantic
ocean) has already been declared idol-worshipping Papists.

Until someone's calm and brave enough to look at the whole history of Chr
istianity objectively they won't know much about their own subset of it.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< If I didn't have a supportive, enjoyable church to attend, I would
spend regular time in the Bible. Among its 66 books, I can always
find a chapter that applies to my situation, to encourage me or to
give me advice. >>

As a person that considers herself a liberal Christian I see many problems
in using the Bible as the end all be all of books.
There are contradictions and errors left and right, and while you find your
peace there ( and that's great for you) trying to convince anyone else here
that it's the way to attain spiritual strength is just plain wrong.
Let's stick to unschooling.

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/22/03 5:21:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Good points. I have some ideas but don't know the history. When my
kids are older (now 11, 9, 7) I will want to be able to explain how
the 66 books of the Protestant Bible were chosen, as well as why the
Catholic Bible has a few more and why the Gnostic gospels were not
chosen. I believe that God was involved in the selection of books
and speaks to anyone who reads the Bible. >>

It had little to do with God and everything to do with man.
It was voted on by a council of Greek folks way back when......after much
debate and discussion it came down to a vote.


Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/22/03 11:20:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

> As a person that considers herself a liberal Christian I see many problems
> in using the Bible as the end all be all of books.
>

I think it is also important to remember that some (many?) people who are
unchurching may not even be Christian.
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 6:42:35 AM, Earthmomma67@... writes:

<< I think it is also important to remember that some (many?) people who are
unchurching may not even be Christian. >>

Seeing as how "church" is a Christian term, I believe it's reasonable to
assume Christianity.

Sandra

kayb85 <[email protected]>

I think it depends on how you define church. Most people define
church as a group of people who believe in Christ. Therefore to be
an "unchurcher" would imply that you're believing in Christ without
participating in the institutional church rituals. If you don't even
believe in Christ, you're probably not unchurching, you're simply a
non-Christian.

Not that it's a huge deal what you call what it is that you do, it's
just how I see the word "unchurch".

Sheila

--- In [email protected], Earthmomma67@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/22/03 11:20:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> starsuncloud@c... writes:
>
> > As a person that considers herself a liberal Christian I see many
problems
> > in using the Bible as the end all be all of books.
> >
>
> I think it is also important to remember that some (many?) people
who are
> unchurching may not even be Christian.
> *~*Elissa Jill*~*
> unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
> Loving partner for life to Joey
> terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 1:51:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> <<I think it is also important to remember that some (many?) people who are
> unchurching may not even be Christian. >>
>
> Seeing as how "church" is a Christian term, I believe it's reasonable to
> assume Christianity.
>
> Sandra
>
>

Sure.
I've also heard many many Christians describe a Jewish Synagogue as a "Jewish
church" or a Buddhist Temple as a "church" so I thought it might be a good
point. I assumed that unchurching meant finding spirituality outside of
religion, which is what I do, and I am not christian.

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike Ebbers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], starsuncloud@c... wrote:
> It had little to do with God and everything to do with man.
> It was voted on by a council of Greek folks way back when ....
> after much debate and discussion it came down to a vote.

These two ideas surprised me, so I did some googling. The sites I
read don't see it as simply as you explained it.

Regarding who chose the books, some sites say the choice of books was
inspired by God, while others say that the selected books stood out
as obvious scriptural material from the runners-up.

Regarding a vote by one council, (the council at Carthage in 387 AD),
the sites I read mention that the selection of the New Testament
books was discussed for several centuries (before and after this
council).

Mike

Mike Ebbers <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>Interestingly, those people who have been solidly involved with the
>very same religion or denomination or church all their lives often
>know the least about religion as a whole (or about Christianity as a
>whole).
> It's like being in a well and looking at the sky. The little patch
>of sky you see if you're in the American Baptist Convention's hole
>isn't the same as you'd see from the Southern Baptists' hole, and
>you certainly can't BEGIN to see the Episcopal hole from there. And
>the Catholic hole bit as the Atlantic ocean) has already been
>declared idol-worshipping Papists.
> Until someone's calm and brave enough to look at the whole history
>of Christianity objectively they won't know much about their own
>subset of it.

I have been a member of most of the denominations you mention plus a
number of others. Those experiences lead me to think that the beliefs
of individual church members and pastors is what gives such a variety
to Christian church experiences today, rather than official doctrines
of different denominations, which are quite similar.

I recently ran across a statement by someone who has taken the time
to study this phenomenon. He comes to a similar conclusion:

"In John 17:21, Christ prayed for the body of Christ to be one. One
of the goals of my ministry when I started over 11 years ago, was to
do what I could be bring unity to the body of Christ. In some of my
post graduate theological studies, I did extensive research on over
150 mainline Christian denominations and what they believed, and what
separated them. The fact is, they all hold the basic tenants of the
Christian faith. It was usually on a wide array of theological
issues that made no difference to the main body of our faith that
there is disagreement and division."

Mike
P.S. For those who might like to check on the complete context or
background, this web site is: http://www.liveprayer.com/home.html
The "daily devotional" containing this quote is 1/23/2003.

Shyrley

"Mike Ebbers " wrote:

>
>
> Regarding who chose the books, some sites say the choice of books was
> inspired by God, while others say that the selected books stood out
> as obvious scriptural material from the runners-up.
>
> Regarding a vote by one council, (the council at Carthage in 387 AD),
> the sites I read mention that the selection of the New Testament
> books was discussed for several centuries (before and after this
> council).
>
> Mike
>

You have to remember that for the first 2-300 years the church wasn't really a church as such but many groups of people all with different ideas about Jesus and his teachings and what they meant. As
groups turned into more organised churches they all bickered among themselves. the 'discussions' weren't sit down and talk about it discussions but different congregations using different books and
scriptures. As the Roman church grew stronger they wished to establish themselves as the *real* church and wanted to decide what was doctrine and waht wasn't. Mosy congregations were autonomous of Rome
and a lot of the teacings that spread out were word of mouth and 'have you seen this bit' type teachings.
Discussions makes it sound like there was a unified church before the Council of Carthage but there wasn't. There wasn't really unification afterwards either, not for a hundred years or so as the power
of the Church of Rome grew, aided by military might.
The History of the early Church is fascinating and pretty gory.

Shyrley

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 8:36:49 PM, mikeebb@... writes:

<< Regarding who chose the books, some sites say the choice of books was
inspired by God, >>

Did he point at the books he wanted, or incinerate the losers? Or did he
"inspire" people to vote?

That was WAY pre-printing press, and the books they were considering were
being copied by people for people, right?

Fetteroll

on 1/23/03 10:53 PM, Mike Ebbers <mikeebb@...> at mikeebb@...
wrote:

> The fact is, they all hold the basic tenants of the
> Christian faith. It was usually on a wide array of theological
> issues that made no difference to the main body of our faith that
> there is disagreement and division.

Well it isn't the basic tenants that divide people. It's how they go about
interpreting what God is asking of them that causes the division. And it's
not just the people and pastors causing the differences. If that were so,
every denomination would have the same percentage of liberal congregations
and conservative as every other denomination. No, there are teachings that
are unique to the Baptists and Episcopalians and Catholics and other
denominations that keep them each centered around their own unique spot on
the scale.

Probably the basic tenant of every healthy parent is to provide what's best
for their children. But schoolers and school-at-homers and unschoolers are
not going to come to any peaceful consensus on how to go about that.

Joyce

myfunny4 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
> Probably the basic tenant of every healthy parent is to provide
what's best
> for their children. But schoolers and school-at-homers and
unschoolers are
> not going to come to any peaceful consensus on how to go about that.
>

This is true, unfortunately. I would like to add to that, though:
Lack of consensus does not predicate a lack of toleration.

These are good points, Joyce.

Debbie

Fetteroll

on 1/24/03 8:56 AM, myfunny4 <Debbies4@...> at Debbies4@...
wrote:

> This is true, unfortunately. I would like to add to that, though:
> Lack of consensus does not predicate a lack of toleration.

Do you mean "Lack of consensus does not imply a lack of toleration?" or were
you trying to say "Lack of consensus does not imply there must then be a
lack of toleration?" Are you seeing intolerance because there is
disagreement?

Joyce

Susan Fuerst

It was voted on by a council of Greek folks way back when......after
much
debate and discussion it came down to a vote.


Greek folks?

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/23/03 9:57:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> I assumed that unchurching meant finding spirituality outside of
> religion, which is what I do, and I am not christian.
>
>

I guess when I used unchurching I meant that I am a Christian but find my own
ways to practice that religion with my family without going to church. I
find that the church can be very draining and I don't agree with some of
their interpretations. In the same way my boys learn without school. I
worship without church. (simplistic I guess)
Pam G.


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