Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

Love reading this thread. I am just now facing this step, Heidi
and want you to know tha tit does take some changed thinking to
be able to let go of math books and trust the process of math.

I am one who grew up with a Dad who used to say that true
intelligence was shown in the maths and sciences (I, of course,
was getting As in English, history, foreign language and theater
arts)> With a 3.85 in high school, I never felt smart. I had math
tutors my entire life.

In elementary school, I remember learning the times tables and
racing to complete the pages in order to win an eraser. I won the
first two times. The third time, I finished first, got the special
eraser and then had the eraser stripped from me because I had
missed ever problem. We werre multiplying the 1s and 0s. I had
reversed them--1x2=1 and 0x2=2. Obviously I had no idea what i
was doing. i was trying to memorize and race.

That experience was so devstating that I still remember saying to
myself, "I will never be good at math. I am dumb." And lo and
behold, it has proven to be true! No amount of help has made
math more interesting, more pallatable, more "user-friendly." I
have agonized for years over the fact that I can't balance a check
book (I know how, it just never works when I do it), I haven't had
my times tables down cold until now (nearly forty--I always forgot
whether 8x7=54 or 56.).

A mathy-y engineer friend told me an interesting thing. She says
that in the race to "master" the times tables, we short circuit a
student's necessary process of proving to him/herself that 8x7
really IS 56. We expect them to use tricks to remember the
answer instead of allowing for a slow and often times irregular
process of coming to fully believe in the answer (through
repeated trial and error, through counting on fingers, through
proving it over and over again) until we are convinced.

No one can say "At third grade you should be convinced that
3x3=9." The child will come to it when he/she does.

All this to say, I have eased up on rote memorization and the use
of text books. I have one son (11) who is passionate about
astronomy and baking. He loves all the math related to these
things but is bored by his math book and says he doesn't like
math. It breaks my heart that I have created this damage! He is
the kind of kid who should (and I beleive will) love math simply
becuase of his natural interests.

So we are backing off totally. Just last night he informed us of his
desire to start a business selling cookies. Ah! Math.

Last thing: My oldest son (15) got more math out of Roller
Coaster Tycoon than any othe rcomputer game. he went on to a
rudimentary understanding of physics just from playing that
game ad nauseum... starting at age 10.

Heidi, I'll keep you company while we take the leap, if you wwant.
It's scary to me, but I can at least look at my own experience and
know that the school methods failed me completely. I suppose
I'm willing to take a different tack and hope for better results.

(Btw, the way you described your daughter's journey into Middle
Earth is exactly how I have seen unschooling in our family. I also
required "table time" like you did. It is a new risk and adventure
for us to let it all go. I think if you have one success under your
belt of watching a child take off in learning, you will feel easier
about letting other things go. I know it's helped me. Good luck!)

Julie B ~~newly launching unschooling in a full fledged manner.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 8:25:06 AM, julie@... writes:

<< So we are backing off totally. Just last night he informed us of his
desire to start a business selling cookies. Ah! Math. >>

I hope you didn't tell him that!!

I would think it could as easily be law or biology.
What will happen if he isn't careful with his ingredients and he POISONS
someone?
Are there nuts in there? How will he label them so vegans will know whether
they can eat them?

(I wouldn't tell him that either, but I would think it all to myself. <g>)

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 8:25:06 AM, julie@... writes:

<< I am one who grew up with a Dad who used to say that true
intelligence was shown in the maths and sciences (I, of course,
was getting As in English, history, foreign language and theater
arts)> With a 3.85 in high school, I never felt smart. I had math
tutors my entire life.
>>

For anyone still having any angst about matters such as this, PLEASE find
info on Gardner's theories of multiple intelligence.

Google.com
multiple intelligence

It will make you feel WAY better about yourself, and about your kids, and
will make you a better homeschooling parent on first glance, even, or with
one WHIFF of the idea that kinesthetic intelligence is as real and important
as logical/spatial or musical.

<<A mathy-y engineer friend told me an interesting thing. She says
that in the race to "master" the times tables, we short circuit a
student's necessary process of proving to him/herself that 8x7
really IS 56. We expect them to use tricks to remember the
answer instead of allowing for a slow and often times irregular
process of coming to fully believe in the answer (through
repeated trial and error, through counting on fingers, through
proving it over and over again) until we are convinced.>>

I hope your friend is living in a big, comfortable house and is very happy.
She deserves it.

My kids "did the times tables" for cash one day. And then again a week or
two later. And then for fun with chalk on a big concrete slab. And later
for fun on paper.

But what they "did" was to fill numbers in on a grid from 1 to however many
fit (9 to 14 or so?) and down to ten or 11 the other way, and fill in the
easy ones first, and then the harder ones, and that exercise all by itself
with no explanatory comments from moms is WAY better than their memorizing
anything.

Seeing the patterns is what the times tables are about.
It's a table of information. A graph.
The information doesn't exist on paper, or in memorized phrases like "Five
times eight is forty." It exists in the real world, in countable measurable
realities, and it exists in the incorporate air of ideas. And it will be
discovered again by each person who is born UNLESS someone tells them it's a
think to learn a certain way by a certain age and they kill dead their
opportunity to discover it as happily as they would see their first butterfly
or their first snowflake.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 1/12/03 10:38 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> How will he label them so vegans will know whether
> they can eat them?

Vegans eat nuts!

They just don't eat leather.

Or wear it either.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 8:50:33 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< Vegans eat nuts! >>

I was thinking butter and eggs.

I was thinking nut allergies for nuts.

Susan Fuerst

> How will he label them so vegans will know whether
> they can eat them?

Vegans eat nuts!

They just don't eat leather.

Or wear it either.

Joyce


It will need a label about nuts for all those nut allergy people.

Heidi <[email protected]>

Thanks, Julie. I believe I will take you up on that offer, to take
the steps together....*gulp* Mine is going to be a slow process, most
likely. But I bet that isn't so uncommon. With a mother in her final
year of a public school teacher career, who supports my homeschooling
wholeheartedly (since she's been able to observe how bright my kids
are) and a MIL who was a school teacher, and HATES that we
homeschool...ah, well. I don't have to tell them "we're unschooling"
now, do I? LOL

It must have been so traumatic to have that eraser/times table thing
happen. Public schools are SO damaging to children. how anyone
survives is beyond me. It took me years to recover from the things
I "learned" in school (None of it academic, btw. It was the social
aspects of school that killed me.)

Anyway. Thanks for a wonderful post, Julie! I'm getting lots of food
for thought, here.

blessings, Heidi


--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
> Love reading this thread. I am just now facing this step, Heidi
> and want you to know tha tit does take some changed thinking to
> be able to let go of math books and trust the process of math.
>
> I am one who grew up with a Dad who used to say that true
> intelligence was shown in the maths and sciences (I, of course,
> was getting As in English, history, foreign language and theater
> arts)> With a 3.85 in high school, I never felt smart. I had math
> tutors my entire life.
>
> In elementary school, I remember learning the times tables and
> racing to complete the pages in order to win an eraser. I won the
> first two times. The third time, I finished first, got the special
> eraser and then had the eraser stripped from me because I had
> missed ever problem. We werre multiplying the 1s and 0s. I had
> reversed them--1x2=1 and 0x2=2. Obviously I had no idea what i
> was doing. i was trying to memorize and race.
>
> That experience was so devstating that I still remember saying to
> myself, "I will never be good at math. I am dumb." And lo and
> behold, it has proven to be true! No amount of help has made
> math more interesting, more pallatable, more "user-friendly." I
> have agonized for years over the fact that I can't balance a check
> book (I know how, it just never works when I do it), I haven't had
> my times tables down cold until now (nearly forty--I always forgot
> whether 8x7=54 or 56.).

Schuyler Waynforth <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> My kids "did the times tables" for cash one day. And then again a
week or
> two later. And then for fun with chalk on a big concrete slab.
And later
> for fun on paper.
>
> But what they "did" was to fill numbers in on a grid from 1 to
however many
> fit (9 to 14 or so?) and down to ten or 11 the other way, and fill
in the
> easy ones first, and then the harder ones, and that exercise all
by itself
> with no explanatory comments from moms is WAY better than their
memorizing
> anything.
>
> Seeing the patterns is what the times tables are about.
> It's a table of information. A graph.
> The information doesn't exist on paper, or in memorized phrases
like "Five
> times eight is forty." It exists in the real world, in countable
measurable
> realities, and it exists in the incorporate air of ideas. And it
will be
> discovered again by each person who is born UNLESS someone tells
them it's a
> think to learn a certain way by a certain age and they kill dead
their
> opportunity to discover it as happily as they would see their
first butterfly
> or their first snowflake.
>
> Sandra

My dad sent Simon (5 years old) a set of addition and a set of
subtraction flash cards for Christmas. He is very concerned that
Simon be able to balance his checkbook when the time comes. I went
through and ordered them numerically, so all of the 0 + X were
together, from 1 to 9, I think and the same with the subtraction. I
put them away. Simon asked later on to play them. I held them and
he answered them "0,1,2,3..." repeating the counting as he went. At
some point David (dh) grabbed one at random and flashed it at Simon
(I like the idea of flashcards producing flashers). Simon explained
to him that we were doing it in order and that he didn't want to do
it at random. We continued for a while and then built card houses
with them. David and I had a long conversation about the value of
both methods. I convinced him that understanding the additive
nature of numbers was at least equal to knowing how to count on your
fingers when presented with an equation. And Simon didn't get
frustrated or feel stupid or overwhelmed. He thought it was fun
until it wasn't.

Schuyler

Betsy

**He loves all the math related to these
things but is bored by his math book and says he doesn't like
math. It breaks my heart that I have created this damage!**

Please try to convince him that what he doesn't like is his math book.

Betsy