Teens: Sex and dating
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
So what are you all doing about this?
Curfews?
Do you advocate waitng until marriage for a sexual relationship
or no?
Is dating something that is determined by the girl or boy's
desires rather than a predetermined age of elligibility?
What about driving in cars with other teens?
I'm curious how everyone thinks about morality, imparting
values, setting boundaries related to safety and so on. I was
raised without any structure, boundaries or moral compass. I
fully expected to live with a boyfriend before marriage, thought
having sex would be a normal part of a relationship and ended
up not ever having sex until I was married (at 22).
As a conservative Christian, there is a lot of fear associated with
kids making a mistake--either through dating or sexual contact. I
want to avoid being either too strict and imposing while so lax
that my kids haven't got anything to bump up against to fo9rm
their values. They do look to us to guide them.
What do you think?
Julie B
Curfews?
Do you advocate waitng until marriage for a sexual relationship
or no?
Is dating something that is determined by the girl or boy's
desires rather than a predetermined age of elligibility?
What about driving in cars with other teens?
I'm curious how everyone thinks about morality, imparting
values, setting boundaries related to safety and so on. I was
raised without any structure, boundaries or moral compass. I
fully expected to live with a boyfriend before marriage, thought
having sex would be a normal part of a relationship and ended
up not ever having sex until I was married (at 22).
As a conservative Christian, there is a lot of fear associated with
kids making a mistake--either through dating or sexual contact. I
want to avoid being either too strict and imposing while so lax
that my kids haven't got anything to bump up against to fo9rm
their values. They do look to us to guide them.
What do you think?
Julie B
kayb85 <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
idea of where they are, so that my own mind is at ease. But then
again, I always let dh know where I am and he lets me know.
marriage. I think that our society's way of saying that the magical
age of 18 is when they're ready to be adults is silly. I have no
problem with young marriage, old marriage, or no marriage at all.
Just so the sex happens after the marriage. And I don't need the
marriage to be legal, as long as it is before God and is a lifelong
commitment.
safe being with someone who drives drunk or drives unsafely.
Hopefully they're not so needy that they need to be with kids acting
unsafely in order to feel popular.
should treat our children respectfully. Yes, they have a sin nature
but so do I, and I don't have any human restricting me and punishing
me if I come in too late or make a wrong choice. I think we should
hold our children accountable in the same way we would hold a brother
or sister accountable, but then again they should us accountable too.
Sheila
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
> So what are you all doing about this?I don't see the point in a curfew. I will expect to have a general
>
> Curfews?
idea of where they are, so that my own mind is at ease. But then
again, I always let dh know where I am and he lets me know.
> Do you advocate waitng until marriage for a sexual relationshipYes. Absolutely.
> or no?
> Is dating something that is determined by the girl or boy'sDating should be determined by the girl or boy's desire for
> desires rather than a predetermined age of elligibility?
marriage. I think that our society's way of saying that the magical
age of 18 is when they're ready to be adults is silly. I have no
problem with young marriage, old marriage, or no marriage at all.
Just so the sex happens after the marriage. And I don't need the
marriage to be legal, as long as it is before God and is a lifelong
commitment.
> What about driving in cars with other teens?I'm ok with that. Of course I would hope that my kids wouldn't feel
safe being with someone who drives drunk or drives unsafely.
Hopefully they're not so needy that they need to be with kids acting
unsafely in order to feel popular.
> As a conservative Christian, there is a lot of fear associated withI don't think we should live in fear of anything. I think that we
> kids making a mistake--either through dating or sexual contact. I
> want to avoid being either too strict and imposing while so lax
> that my kids haven't got anything to bump up against to fo9rm
> their values. They do look to us to guide them.
should treat our children respectfully. Yes, they have a sin nature
but so do I, and I don't have any human restricting me and punishing
me if I come in too late or make a wrong choice. I think we should
hold our children accountable in the same way we would hold a brother
or sister accountable, but then again they should us accountable too.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/11/03 4:26:14 PM, julie@... writes:
<< Curfews? >>
Our kids let us know where they'll be and overnight stuff is on a
case-by-case basis.
Everything's on a case-by-case basis.
Kirby, at 16, is out quite a bit, but he has friends over here a lot too,
sometimes overnight, usually other male gamer-guys.
<<Do you advocate waitng until marriage for a sexual relationship or no? >>
Neither way has been "advocated." We've talked about sexuality,
responsibility, pregnancy, disease, and there's never been a time in all
their lives when we haven't modelled and advised consideration for other's
needs and feelings.
<<Is dating something that is determined by the girl or boy's
desires rather than a predetermined age of elligibility?>>
The two words that don't fit with the way we've thought and dealt with this
are "dating" and "desires."
Our kids socialize in groups. Sometimes within those groups a girl and boy
have special feelings for a while. Sometimes it will split or affect a
group, sometimes not. They go to movies and they go to anime club and
gaming nights, but not as couple, not as "dates." Kirby has done some things
with just one other person and it was a female. Sometimes it has been his
girlfriend. He's had four girlfriends over the past three years. None at
the moment, but he is friendly with three of those four and two he's lost
track of. One hardly counts. He met her with groups to hang out at the
mall a couple of times.
He has yet to be independently driving and invite a girl he hardly knows to
do a formal date. I kinda doubt it will ever happen that way.
<<What about driving in cars with other teens?>>
He has several friends who can drive. Most ohey're going to go and they
park. We let the kids go. The law in New Mexico limits new drivers to one
person under 18 who's not a member of their family. So usually if one of our
kids is with another driver it's only one of them at a time.
The places they go the most are one mile from here, the gaming shop and their
friend Eric's house, so it's not much of a problem anyway.
<<As a conservative Christian, there is a lot of fear associated with
kids making a mistake--either through dating or sexual contact. >>
There's a lot of fear about EVERYTHING for conservative Christians.
The Baptists I grew up among (and my relatives who are still Baptist) are
uptight for the godly joy of being uptight, it seems. And are their kids
nicer, better, more honest, kinder and more innocent? Nope.
<<I was raised without any structure, boundaries or moral compass. >>
My kids are being raised with what SEEMS probably to others not to be
structure or boundaries, but we talk daily about how they and their friends
are getting along, whether they've remembered to do this or that regarding
some social obligation, and every situation (Marty's upcoming birthday party)
is planned with consideration for each person involved or affected. That's a
heck of a moral compass. Works better than a list of "simple" (arbitrary)
rules with times and ages and years and hours. Each decision they make is
made in light of real considerations, and they know they'll end up discussing
it. <g>
My kids are trusted and respected by adults in all directions. They impress
me sometimes. I'm surprised at their level of responsibility and
thoughtfulness. Sometimes I expect them to be irresponsible and "just kids,"
but they're better kids than I was.
Kirby had a dentist's appointment Friday morning and had to work Friday
afternoon. His schedule was greatly increased because his boss's dad had a
stroke in another city. He wanted to spend the night with friends, but I
needed to make sure he got to the dentist.
Turns out his friends live a block from the dentist. He talked with his dad
and me about it, he put his karate gi in the laundry and went to the friends'
house, where they made sure he had an alarm set, he walked himself to the
dentist, and had arranged for a ride to work. He came home late last night,
got up this morning and got himself ready for work... not a think I had to do
to help him for a day and a half. And he was cheerful and nice to his little
brother and sister.
If we had made rules about when he had to be home and said "No, you can't go
and visit your friend because you have to go to the dentist tomorrow" or if
we had bugged him about whether he had set his alarm, or whatever all, he
might be harboring some resentment (to say the least). And if we didn't give
him a chance to show us that he COULD pull off a two-day schedule that
complex, we wouldn't have the opportunity to have as much faith in him as we
do.
It all developed gradually.
Sandra
<< Curfews? >>
Our kids let us know where they'll be and overnight stuff is on a
case-by-case basis.
Everything's on a case-by-case basis.
Kirby, at 16, is out quite a bit, but he has friends over here a lot too,
sometimes overnight, usually other male gamer-guys.
<<Do you advocate waitng until marriage for a sexual relationship or no? >>
Neither way has been "advocated." We've talked about sexuality,
responsibility, pregnancy, disease, and there's never been a time in all
their lives when we haven't modelled and advised consideration for other's
needs and feelings.
<<Is dating something that is determined by the girl or boy's
desires rather than a predetermined age of elligibility?>>
The two words that don't fit with the way we've thought and dealt with this
are "dating" and "desires."
Our kids socialize in groups. Sometimes within those groups a girl and boy
have special feelings for a while. Sometimes it will split or affect a
group, sometimes not. They go to movies and they go to anime club and
gaming nights, but not as couple, not as "dates." Kirby has done some things
with just one other person and it was a female. Sometimes it has been his
girlfriend. He's had four girlfriends over the past three years. None at
the moment, but he is friendly with three of those four and two he's lost
track of. One hardly counts. He met her with groups to hang out at the
mall a couple of times.
He has yet to be independently driving and invite a girl he hardly knows to
do a formal date. I kinda doubt it will ever happen that way.
<<What about driving in cars with other teens?>>
He has several friends who can drive. Most ohey're going to go and they
park. We let the kids go. The law in New Mexico limits new drivers to one
person under 18 who's not a member of their family. So usually if one of our
kids is with another driver it's only one of them at a time.
The places they go the most are one mile from here, the gaming shop and their
friend Eric's house, so it's not much of a problem anyway.
<<As a conservative Christian, there is a lot of fear associated with
kids making a mistake--either through dating or sexual contact. >>
There's a lot of fear about EVERYTHING for conservative Christians.
The Baptists I grew up among (and my relatives who are still Baptist) are
uptight for the godly joy of being uptight, it seems. And are their kids
nicer, better, more honest, kinder and more innocent? Nope.
<<I was raised without any structure, boundaries or moral compass. >>
My kids are being raised with what SEEMS probably to others not to be
structure or boundaries, but we talk daily about how they and their friends
are getting along, whether they've remembered to do this or that regarding
some social obligation, and every situation (Marty's upcoming birthday party)
is planned with consideration for each person involved or affected. That's a
heck of a moral compass. Works better than a list of "simple" (arbitrary)
rules with times and ages and years and hours. Each decision they make is
made in light of real considerations, and they know they'll end up discussing
it. <g>
My kids are trusted and respected by adults in all directions. They impress
me sometimes. I'm surprised at their level of responsibility and
thoughtfulness. Sometimes I expect them to be irresponsible and "just kids,"
but they're better kids than I was.
Kirby had a dentist's appointment Friday morning and had to work Friday
afternoon. His schedule was greatly increased because his boss's dad had a
stroke in another city. He wanted to spend the night with friends, but I
needed to make sure he got to the dentist.
Turns out his friends live a block from the dentist. He talked with his dad
and me about it, he put his karate gi in the laundry and went to the friends'
house, where they made sure he had an alarm set, he walked himself to the
dentist, and had arranged for a ride to work. He came home late last night,
got up this morning and got himself ready for work... not a think I had to do
to help him for a day and a half. And he was cheerful and nice to his little
brother and sister.
If we had made rules about when he had to be home and said "No, you can't go
and visit your friend because you have to go to the dentist tomorrow" or if
we had bugged him about whether he had set his alarm, or whatever all, he
might be harboring some resentment (to say the least). And if we didn't give
him a chance to show us that he COULD pull off a two-day schedule that
complex, we wouldn't have the opportunity to have as much faith in him as we
do.
It all developed gradually.
Sandra
Shyrley
"Julie Bogart " wrote:
them in their room. I used to climb out of the window after my mother thought I was in bed.
partnership can be loving and sexual without Govt sanction. I also don't see any problem with exploring sexuality when the young person is ready. It's their body, not mine.
Quite often this may be similar to the parentbut not always.
her if that was required.
support and love them whatever those decisions are, even if it isn't something I would have done myself. I'm not them. Therefore I will never feel disappointed or disapproving of anything they did.
Shyrley
> So what are you all doing about this?My kids aren't yet teens but when they do wish to go out I won't impose a curfew. I believe it shows a lack of respect for the young person involved. I also think that it doesn't work short of locking
>
> Curfews?
them in their room. I used to climb out of the window after my mother thought I was in bed.
>Nope. That would be hypocritical. I lived with my husband for years before we got married and we actually got married for tax reasons, not because we think a Govt piece of paper is important. A
>
> Do you advocate waitng until marriage for a sexual relationship
> or no?
partnership can be loving and sexual without Govt sanction. I also don't see any problem with exploring sexuality when the young person is ready. It's their body, not mine.
>Age really means nothing. Some poeple are mature at 13, others at 78. Dating should be up to the person who wishes to do the dating.
>
> Is dating something that is determined by the girl or boy's
> desires rather than a predetermined age of elligibility?
>Not a tricky problem in the UK as very few teens have cars. In fact, I can't think of anyone I know under 20 who has a car back home. Back home we don't drive until 17 at the earliest.
>
> What about driving in cars with other teens?
>While I was nagged by my mother to be pure and started sexual relationships at 15. While you can share your values with your children, they are seperate human beings with their own ideas and morals.
>
> I'm curious how everyone thinks about morality, imparting
> values, setting boundaries related to safety and so on. I was
> raised without any structure, boundaries or moral compass. I
> fully expected to live with a boyfriend before marriage, thought
> having sex would be a normal part of a relationship and ended
> up not ever having sex until I was married (at 22).
Quite often this may be similar to the parentbut not always.
>What sort of mistake? I assume you mean becoming pregnant? If my daughter became pregnant before she really meant too (and she does know all about contraception) the I would support her fully and help
>
> As a conservative Christian, there is a lot of fear associated with
> kids making a mistake--either through dating or sexual contact.
her if that was required.
> IInteresting questions Julie. Basically, while I share my values and recount my experiences with my children they are seperate human beings and are free to make their own decisions. I feel I will always
> want to avoid being either too strict and imposing while so lax
> that my kids haven't got anything to bump up against to fo9rm
> their values. They do look to us to guide them.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Julie B
>
support and love them whatever those decisions are, even if it isn't something I would have done myself. I'm not them. Therefore I will never feel disappointed or disapproving of anything they did.
Shyrley
Mary Bianco
>From: "Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...><<So what are you all doing about this?>>
<<Curfews?>>
My oldest, Tara, has always been a school child but when I realized we were
unschoolers, she was met with the same attitude that we had with the younger
3. So even though school is a choice for her, we have an unschooling
attitude with her if you will. She doesn't have a curfew. She use to but
with the help of this list, Sandra especially, I saw that I needed to let go
of that too. It was probably the last thing I held onto with her not
realizing it didn't go along with everything else I believed. She actually
does better now with not having one then when she did!!
<<Do you advocate waitng until marriage for a sexual relationship
or no?>>
We really don't advocate anything. Tara was talked to about everything we
believed in regard to sexuality and even things we didn't believe. Basically
provided with all the info she needed to make her own choices. She was
active sexually before I wish she would have been. She also believes the
same thing now but has learned from her own trial and error. She too wishes
she would have waited but she didn't and luckily there has been no major
harm done. She is active now with her boyfriend. She is on birth control and
also uses protection with that. Do I wish she wasn't at this age? Sure. But
she does and she is smart about doing it and also wise beyond her years
because of the early choices she made. It would be silly of me to think that
after starting at an early age, she would not have sex now with a great kid
she loves and who loves her back. I'm okay with her decision, more so than
my husband but he works through it!!
<<Is dating something that is determined by the girl or boy's
desires rather than a predetermined age of elligibility?>>
Dating is a term the kids don't use around here. With Tara it was never a
certain age. She started hanging out in groups at around 12 or 13. Just
being dropped off at movies and picked up right after or with a group at a
friends house with a parent home. Both sexes were involved. No one really
had a boyfriend/girlfriend although there were whispers of who liked who.
Even now, a boy and girl can go out for months and unless the boy actually
asks the girl to be his girlfriend, they aren't boyfriend/girlfriend. Go
figure. That's how it works here. Tara has had 4 boy friends now and she's
17. She hasn't had sex with them all either in case you're wondering!! I
think the first time she actually went out with a boy alone was when she was
15. Again, they met at the movies. This past 6 months with her boyfriend now
is the first time she actually has gotten picked up and they go out alone to
the beach, dinner, movie, concerts, etc.
<What about driving in cars with other teens?>>
Tara started going out with a kid she was seeing when she was almost 16 and
he was 17. Again it was in a group in the car in her cousins neighborhood. I
knew them all and where they were. Now I have no problem as she only goes
with kids she feels comfortable with. She has actually told me certain
people she won't get in a car with. I would say now she drives with only two
people. Her boyfriend and her best girlfriend. She gets her own license next
month. She has also promised she would call if she ever felt unsure about
driving with someone. I trust her instincts and also her boyfriend. He's not
a party guy and always safe from what I have seen. And I have seen when he
hasn't realized it!
I trust my daughter judgements, not to say I don't realize she will still
make mistakes. I figure she will live with someone before she marries. I'm
fine with that. I know she has already had sex and now I'm fine with that
too. (I was a basket case) I'm hoping her marriage will be forever although
I'm realistic and she is gun shy about it all. She has seen her own parents
divorce and various aunts and uncles she never thought it would happen to.
She wants children although she swears it won't be until her late 20's.
She's seen me raise her younger 3 siblings and knows what it takes!!! We
have always spoken to her about what we believe and also given her the facts
about it all. I have never said what I wanted her to do or not to do. Tara
will be the first one to say that she listens to it all and then makes her
own decisions and learns from her own mistakes. She's a great kid. A really
great kid!!
Mary B
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Gerard Westenberg
<<I'm curious how everyone thinks about morality, imparting
values, setting boundaries related to safety and so on. >>
FWIW, I fiid we deal with this as we have dealt with everything else - talking, reading, talking, reading, treating each child and situation individually....Oldest son ( 22) is single and is studying/working/living at home. He has talked about his relatiosnhips and friendships with young women with dh and I - we have talked about our experiences and our values and thoughts. He, and the next two down ( 18, 20) make their own decisions about these issues ( as we do with the 13 yo, but he is not that interested) - but the boys, so far, usually end up talking about the issue with me or dh. They are happy wiht this atm....We are a talking family, though!...Leonie W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
values, setting boundaries related to safety and so on. >>
FWIW, I fiid we deal with this as we have dealt with everything else - talking, reading, talking, reading, treating each child and situation individually....Oldest son ( 22) is single and is studying/working/living at home. He has talked about his relatiosnhips and friendships with young women with dh and I - we have talked about our experiences and our values and thoughts. He, and the next two down ( 18, 20) make their own decisions about these issues ( as we do with the 13 yo, but he is not that interested) - but the boys, so far, usually end up talking about the issue with me or dh. They are happy wiht this atm....We are a talking family, though!...Leonie W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gerard Westenberg
<It all developed gradually. >
Yes! - over time and experience. Things happen. We talk...Like when we read David Copperfield and laughed at his romantic escapades - choosing a marraige partner soley on looks. Lot of discussion here... Or when we watched Pride and Prejudice and discussed Mrs Bennett and her attitude to marriage/relationships ( money!)..Or like when we watched Good Will Hunting - we talked about the relaitonship betwen Matt Damon's charcater and the English girl...As Sandra said, it happens gradually...My older three all got their licenses and cars as soon as they were legal. Some other people in our church restricted their teens to a set ( older) age. Yet, these teens are the ones with more obvious rebellion issues and who are either not really on good terms with their parents or are very dependant on their aprents and dont seem to develop ideas and fríends of their own...Leonie W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes! - over time and experience. Things happen. We talk...Like when we read David Copperfield and laughed at his romantic escapades - choosing a marraige partner soley on looks. Lot of discussion here... Or when we watched Pride and Prejudice and discussed Mrs Bennett and her attitude to marriage/relationships ( money!)..Or like when we watched Good Will Hunting - we talked about the relaitonship betwen Matt Damon's charcater and the English girl...As Sandra said, it happens gradually...My older three all got their licenses and cars as soon as they were legal. Some other people in our church restricted their teens to a set ( older) age. Yet, these teens are the ones with more obvious rebellion issues and who are either not really on good terms with their parents or are very dependant on their aprents and dont seem to develop ideas and fríends of their own...Leonie W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/03 4:00:05 AM, mummyone24@... writes:
<< She doesn't have a curfew. She use to but
with the help of this list, Sandra especially, I saw that I needed to let go
of that too. It was probably the last thing I held onto with her not
realizing it didn't go along with everything else I believed. She actually
does better now with not having one then when she did!! >>
I am SO relieved each time it's confirmed that she's still doing well!
Because my test cases are boys, and I know the fears with the differences.
My daughter is still really little (NOT--she's eleven, and will be up and
somewhat out before the boys have moved away).
This is exactly true of my sons' friends, too:
-=-Dating is a term the kids don't use around here. With Tara it was never a
certain age. She started hanging out in groups at around 12 or 13. Just
being dropped off at movies and picked up right after or with a group at a
friends house with a parent home. Both sexes were involved. No one really
had a boyfriend/girlfriend although there were whispers of who liked who.
Even now, a boy and girl can go out for months and unless the boy actually
asks the girl to be his girlfriend, they aren't boyfriend/girlfriend. Go
figure. That's how it works here. -=-
From experience growing up (and my sometimes irritatingly clear memory of
emotional moments), it seemed the stricter the parents were and the more
ominous weight and power given to -*DATING*- the less casual the kids were
able to be when they did -*DATE*- and so I'm thrilled at the non-existence of
the term and concept in my kids' lives so far.
They will sometimes refer to older couples as "going out," but they seem to
mean hanging out especially much, going to eat together a lot, likely to
know where the other is. Even those couples who seem established haven't
seemed to have "dated."
Maybe it's "just semantics," but I don't think so.
This list is eerie lately, because people keep asking here what Holly lately
asked or discussed with me, but... Friday we were going to pick up a
repaired videotape, and for no known reason Holly asked how long Keith and I
dated before we were together. I had to think hard. And the story was
strange but I had never looked back from such a distance at it. He took me
to dinner once, having to borrow money to do it, while I was still married to
my first husband. So it wasn't "a date," it was going to dinner while I was
in another city. And he lived in the same house with me and my husband for
months before we were romantically involved, let alone physically. So we
lived together before we "dated" was kind of the answer, only we never really
"dated" and we weren't "living together" in the being-a-couple way.
With parental background like THAT... sheesh!!
It does allow for a range far beyond the dating rules of my teen years, which
were this:
When you're fifteen you can date (meaning in a car with one male human)
He must come to the door and chat with parents
They must know where we will be
Dating limited to Friday, Saturday and Wednesday.
Wednesday be back before 10:00
Friday and Saturday midnight unless prior special arrangement of 1:00
That was it. Very simple. Very arbitrary.
It was designed to give me time to do homework and such. So I wouldn't go
wild.
It lasted two years, I left for college right after turning 17, and all rules
were off.
Kirby will be 17 this summer. He hasn't done as much stuff as I had done
physically (I was a virgin, he is too, but I had done some drive-in movie
time, and he hasn't). He's done more socially, and mostly in groups of three
or more. He's more mature than I was. I'm not worried about him. But I
didn't want there to be any all of a sudden releases of limitations or
pressures. So fifteen was no milestone, and seventeen was no milestone and
if he goes away to college, or leaves to live elsewhere I don't expect he
will act radically different.
Sandra
Sandra
<< She doesn't have a curfew. She use to but
with the help of this list, Sandra especially, I saw that I needed to let go
of that too. It was probably the last thing I held onto with her not
realizing it didn't go along with everything else I believed. She actually
does better now with not having one then when she did!! >>
I am SO relieved each time it's confirmed that she's still doing well!
Because my test cases are boys, and I know the fears with the differences.
My daughter is still really little (NOT--she's eleven, and will be up and
somewhat out before the boys have moved away).
This is exactly true of my sons' friends, too:
-=-Dating is a term the kids don't use around here. With Tara it was never a
certain age. She started hanging out in groups at around 12 or 13. Just
being dropped off at movies and picked up right after or with a group at a
friends house with a parent home. Both sexes were involved. No one really
had a boyfriend/girlfriend although there were whispers of who liked who.
Even now, a boy and girl can go out for months and unless the boy actually
asks the girl to be his girlfriend, they aren't boyfriend/girlfriend. Go
figure. That's how it works here. -=-
From experience growing up (and my sometimes irritatingly clear memory of
emotional moments), it seemed the stricter the parents were and the more
ominous weight and power given to -*DATING*- the less casual the kids were
able to be when they did -*DATE*- and so I'm thrilled at the non-existence of
the term and concept in my kids' lives so far.
They will sometimes refer to older couples as "going out," but they seem to
mean hanging out especially much, going to eat together a lot, likely to
know where the other is. Even those couples who seem established haven't
seemed to have "dated."
Maybe it's "just semantics," but I don't think so.
This list is eerie lately, because people keep asking here what Holly lately
asked or discussed with me, but... Friday we were going to pick up a
repaired videotape, and for no known reason Holly asked how long Keith and I
dated before we were together. I had to think hard. And the story was
strange but I had never looked back from such a distance at it. He took me
to dinner once, having to borrow money to do it, while I was still married to
my first husband. So it wasn't "a date," it was going to dinner while I was
in another city. And he lived in the same house with me and my husband for
months before we were romantically involved, let alone physically. So we
lived together before we "dated" was kind of the answer, only we never really
"dated" and we weren't "living together" in the being-a-couple way.
With parental background like THAT... sheesh!!
It does allow for a range far beyond the dating rules of my teen years, which
were this:
When you're fifteen you can date (meaning in a car with one male human)
He must come to the door and chat with parents
They must know where we will be
Dating limited to Friday, Saturday and Wednesday.
Wednesday be back before 10:00
Friday and Saturday midnight unless prior special arrangement of 1:00
That was it. Very simple. Very arbitrary.
It was designed to give me time to do homework and such. So I wouldn't go
wild.
It lasted two years, I left for college right after turning 17, and all rules
were off.
Kirby will be 17 this summer. He hasn't done as much stuff as I had done
physically (I was a virgin, he is too, but I had done some drive-in movie
time, and he hasn't). He's done more socially, and mostly in groups of three
or more. He's more mature than I was. I'm not worried about him. But I
didn't want there to be any all of a sudden releases of limitations or
pressures. So fifteen was no milestone, and seventeen was no milestone and
if he goes away to college, or leaves to live elsewhere I don't expect he
will act radically different.
Sandra
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/03 8:34:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> This list is eerie lately, because people keep asking here what Holly latelyBecause she's really funny!
>
> asked or discussed with me
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/03 4:32:15 AM, westen@... writes:
<< .My older three all got their licenses and cars as soon as they were
legal. Some other people in our church restricted their teens to a set (
older) age. >>
Just on the side...
First Kirby avoided driver's ed one season because he was afraid his
handwriting couldn't keep up with taking notes. Then he was committed to two
afternoons a week, and driver's ed around here is M-Th afernoons after school
hours. He kept saying "wait." When he said "I'm ready," after over a year
of being old enough, I broke my leg. I failed to get him enrolled in the
winter session (daytime classes during Christmas break). I'll try again for
Spring, unless he gets anxious enough to want to take two weeks off karate
and work (part of working hours). He isn't anxious though. He's so busy
every day anyway, and has friends to drive him, that the expense and
responsibility aren't high on his list of desires.
Maybe if we were rich and he was going to get to drive a cool car of his own
he'd be more impatient to do it.
So he'll be 17 before he's driving independently on his own, but it's not
because we set that limitation. It's just kind of naturally evolved.
Sandra
<< .My older three all got their licenses and cars as soon as they were
legal. Some other people in our church restricted their teens to a set (
older) age. >>
Just on the side...
First Kirby avoided driver's ed one season because he was afraid his
handwriting couldn't keep up with taking notes. Then he was committed to two
afternoons a week, and driver's ed around here is M-Th afernoons after school
hours. He kept saying "wait." When he said "I'm ready," after over a year
of being old enough, I broke my leg. I failed to get him enrolled in the
winter session (daytime classes during Christmas break). I'll try again for
Spring, unless he gets anxious enough to want to take two weeks off karate
and work (part of working hours). He isn't anxious though. He's so busy
every day anyway, and has friends to drive him, that the expense and
responsibility aren't high on his list of desires.
Maybe if we were rich and he was going to get to drive a cool car of his own
he'd be more impatient to do it.
So he'll be 17 before he's driving independently on his own, but it's not
because we set that limitation. It's just kind of naturally evolved.
Sandra
Mary Bianco
>From: Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...><<Interesting questions Julie. Basically, while I share my values and
recount my experiences with my children they are seperate human beings and
are free to make their own decisions. I feel I will always
support and love them whatever those decisions are, even if it isn't
something I would have done myself. I'm not them. Therefore I will never
feel disappointed or disapproving of anything they did.>>
Reading Shyrley's post made me think of something I have never quite figured
out yet. It's the part about recounting experiences with children. How do
you handle as parents when children ask what you did at certain ages? I'm
never quite sure if I should be honest and fess up to my mistakes. My
children know I made them but I'm talking about particulars here. Or should
I say it's not important they know what happened to me? With my oldest now,
I have mentioned a few things of my past but also kept some things to
myself. Just not sure whether it would be wise to share everything she asks
about.
Thoughts?
Mary B
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In a message dated 1/12/03 11:34:32 AM, mummyone24@... writes:
<< With my oldest now,
I have mentioned a few things of my past but also kept some things to
myself. Just not sure whether it would be wise to share everything she asks
about. >>
God is laughing at me.
Two (2) days ago, in the kitchen, Holly asked me if I had ever been in jail.
No, I haven't. I did bail someone out once.
She asked if I had ever done anything illegal.
I didn't tell her EVERYTHING I ever did that was illegal. I told her an
assortment of five or six things, and when it seemed to have satisfied her
curiosity, I said "some stuff like that."
If my kids asked a flatly straight question I would answer, but if they're
vague, I might be vague, if it doesn't seem I'm cheating them out of
something they really need to know.
Sandra
<< With my oldest now,
I have mentioned a few things of my past but also kept some things to
myself. Just not sure whether it would be wise to share everything she asks
about. >>
God is laughing at me.
Two (2) days ago, in the kitchen, Holly asked me if I had ever been in jail.
No, I haven't. I did bail someone out once.
She asked if I had ever done anything illegal.
I didn't tell her EVERYTHING I ever did that was illegal. I told her an
assortment of five or six things, and when it seemed to have satisfied her
curiosity, I said "some stuff like that."
If my kids asked a flatly straight question I would answer, but if they're
vague, I might be vague, if it doesn't seem I'm cheating them out of
something they really need to know.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/11/2003 5:26:15 PM Central Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
they have reached legal age, with a person who is also of legal age. That's
how it has worked out anyway.
I tell them they don't want to be like me and end up divorced with two kids
to raise at age 25. At certain times in their lives, that has been very
effective! lol. They (used to) think I'm square.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
> Do you advocate waitng until marriage for a sexual relationshipI advocate waiting until they are in a mutually loving relationship, after
> or no?
>
they have reached legal age, with a person who is also of legal age. That's
how it has worked out anyway.
I tell them they don't want to be like me and end up divorced with two kids
to raise at age 25. At certain times in their lives, that has been very
effective! lol. They (used to) think I'm square.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/11/2003 6:23:29 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
That just cracks me up for some reason. :)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Kirby, at 16, is out quite a bit, but he has friends over here a lot too,And if Kirby can't be in his bed, he leaves stand-ins.
> sometimes overnight, usually other male gamer-guys.
>
That just cracks me up for some reason. :)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
>From: SandraDodd@...<<So we lived together before we "dated" was kind of the answer, only we
never really "dated" and we weren't "living together" in the being-a-couple
way.
With parental background like THAT... sheesh!!>>
LOL!!! That's funny Sandra! Someties the words are best not to be picked
apart huh??
My husband and I actually had sex long before we ever had a "date." So the
word is fine with me not being used! Never really looked at it that way
until you mentioned your status.
As far as your dating rules go, I understand the weekends but why Wednesday?
Hump day??!!!
Mary B (who just couldn't resist!)
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Mary Bianco
>From: SandraDodd@...<<Maybe if we were rich and he was going to get to drive a cool car of his
own he'd be more impatient to do it.
So he'll be 17 before he's driving independently on his own, but it's not
because we set that limitation. It's just kind of naturally evolved.>>
Same with Tara. We're not rich but she does have a really cool older car in
the driveway and it still makes no difference to her. She has a Toyota
Cellica STX waiting right outside our door and she's in no rush. She
technically can get her license next month and is talking about it but more
in a finally have it kind of way then an excitement. Most of her friends
have been driving for awhile. She was just shy of 16 when she wanted to get
her restricted. I was also 17 until I had the desire to learn too. Like you
said, naturally came about, had nothing to do with limnits.
Mary B
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/2003 1:56:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:
was advice to me from a friend many, many years ago. (If you're not willing
to carry and raise his child....)
Cameron's gotten an eyeful of life with a baby/toddler/child these last seven
years. He KNOWS he wants to wait quite a while to have children!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill@... writes:
> I advocate waiting until they are in a mutually loving relationship, afterAnd not to have sex with someone whose baby you wouldn't want to have. That
> they have reached legal age, with a person who is also of legal age.
> That's
> how it has worked out anyway.
>
> I tell them they don't want to be like me and end up divorced with two kids
>
> to raise at age 25. At certain times in their lives, that has been very
> effective! lol. They (used to) think I'm square.
was advice to me from a friend many, many years ago. (If you're not willing
to carry and raise his child....)
Cameron's gotten an eyeful of life with a baby/toddler/child these last seven
years. He KNOWS he wants to wait quite a while to have children!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/03 12:19:18 PM, mummyone24@... writes:
<< As far as your dating rules go, I understand the weekends but why
Wednesday?
Hump day??!!!
Mary B (who just couldn't resist!) >>
GOOD ONE! I don't know. I guess just to tide me over, since they hardly let
me talk on the phone, either. Five minute limit on phone calls.
Sandra
<< As far as your dating rules go, I understand the weekends but why
Wednesday?
Hump day??!!!
Mary B (who just couldn't resist!) >>
GOOD ONE! I don't know. I guess just to tide me over, since they hardly let
me talk on the phone, either. Five minute limit on phone calls.
Sandra
kayb85 <[email protected]>
--- I
ready to potty train at different ages, and are ready to read at
different ages, why wouldn't we think that kids are ready for adult
relationships at different ages. Some kids read when they're very,
very young and some aren't ready until they're a lot older. In the
same way, I think that some kids are ready for an adult relationship
when they're in their "teens" and some aren't ready until they're
50.
I was most definitely ready for marriage when I was 16. I had to
wait until I was 18 because that was "legal age". I had my first
baby at 21, then another at 25 and another at 27. I'm 30 now,
struggling with secondary infertility, and my only regret is that I
listened to people who told me that I *had to* go on birth control
when I was 18 just because I was young. Or that I couldn't get
married and have a baby when I was 16. That was when my fertility
was probably at it's highest, and I might have one more child today
if I hadn't listened to all those *have to's* trying to fit me into
society's mold.
The law that says that 18 is a magical number when kids are all of a
sudden adults does not value individual maturity rates and needs.
Sheila
> I advocate waiting until they are in a mutually lovingrelationship, after
> they have reached legal age, with a person who is also of legalage. That's
> how it has worked out anyway.If we realize that kids are ready to walk at different ages, and are
ready to potty train at different ages, and are ready to read at
different ages, why wouldn't we think that kids are ready for adult
relationships at different ages. Some kids read when they're very,
very young and some aren't ready until they're a lot older. In the
same way, I think that some kids are ready for an adult relationship
when they're in their "teens" and some aren't ready until they're
50.
I was most definitely ready for marriage when I was 16. I had to
wait until I was 18 because that was "legal age". I had my first
baby at 21, then another at 25 and another at 27. I'm 30 now,
struggling with secondary infertility, and my only regret is that I
listened to people who told me that I *had to* go on birth control
when I was 18 just because I was young. Or that I couldn't get
married and have a baby when I was 16. That was when my fertility
was probably at it's highest, and I might have one more child today
if I hadn't listened to all those *have to's* trying to fit me into
society's mold.
The law that says that 18 is a magical number when kids are all of a
sudden adults does not value individual maturity rates and needs.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/03 5:57:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
the first thing that comes to my mind about "Wednesday" is "church night"..
If you went to church on Wed night, maybe they extended your curfew or let
you date "at church" ..It was always so funny to me how all the kids smoked
pot and had sex at church camp and other youth activities than at any other
"secular" activity. Parents thought if their kids were "at church" they
wouldnt get into trouble.. LOL.. thats where most of my friends lost thier
virginity.. at some church function..
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> <<As far as your dating rules go, I understand the weekends but whySandra, also being brought up a baptist,(and still living in the bible belt)
> Wednesday?
> Hump day??!!!
>
> Mary B (who just couldn't resist!) >>
>
> GOOD ONE! I don't know. I guess just to tide me over, since they hardly
> let
> me talk on the phone, either. Five minute limit on phone calls.
>
> Sandra
>
the first thing that comes to my mind about "Wednesday" is "church night"..
If you went to church on Wed night, maybe they extended your curfew or let
you date "at church" ..It was always so funny to me how all the kids smoked
pot and had sex at church camp and other youth activities than at any other
"secular" activity. Parents thought if their kids were "at church" they
wouldnt get into trouble.. LOL.. thats where most of my friends lost thier
virginity.. at some church function..
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<If we realize that kids are ready to walk at different ages, and are
ready to potty train at different ages, and are ready to read at
different ages, why wouldn't we think that kids are ready for adult
relationships at different ages. >>
Well, the legal age thing is because I don't want to be responsible for their mistakes. It's a hold out from my childhood. I advocate it because it's what I wish for my own peace of mind. That's all.
I, of course, can advocate all I want, but I can't stop them from having sex if they really want to do that. They know this. So I ask them to wait, hoping they will, knowing that if they don't I probably won't even know about it. So far I have't known about any of their adult dalliances, either! (My son and his now-fiance have been sleeping together when they're here for the last 2 years, at least. I'm not stupid. lol.)
I ask them (and they are free not to comply) to wait until the girl is of legal age, too, so they won't get into any kind of legal trouble. Jon told me his girlfriend was going to be 18 this month. She told me she was just going to be 17! He doesn't pay much attention to facts like that. What if she was just about to be 16?? As an 18 yo, that might get him in a lot of trouble. (It's moot now, since she broke up with him last night!)
I asked Jon not to get any tattoos or piercings until he was 18, either. I did because I didn't want him to come to me and say, "Why did you let me do this????" It's purely for selfish reasons that I ask for these things. Because he loves me, he saw my reasoning and didn't do it. He was tempted. I'm sure that's not the only reason he didn't, but it's a factor, and that's all I can ever hope to be for them. A factor in their decisions.
Tuck
ready to potty train at different ages, and are ready to read at
different ages, why wouldn't we think that kids are ready for adult
relationships at different ages. >>
Well, the legal age thing is because I don't want to be responsible for their mistakes. It's a hold out from my childhood. I advocate it because it's what I wish for my own peace of mind. That's all.
I, of course, can advocate all I want, but I can't stop them from having sex if they really want to do that. They know this. So I ask them to wait, hoping they will, knowing that if they don't I probably won't even know about it. So far I have't known about any of their adult dalliances, either! (My son and his now-fiance have been sleeping together when they're here for the last 2 years, at least. I'm not stupid. lol.)
I ask them (and they are free not to comply) to wait until the girl is of legal age, too, so they won't get into any kind of legal trouble. Jon told me his girlfriend was going to be 18 this month. She told me she was just going to be 17! He doesn't pay much attention to facts like that. What if she was just about to be 16?? As an 18 yo, that might get him in a lot of trouble. (It's moot now, since she broke up with him last night!)
I asked Jon not to get any tattoos or piercings until he was 18, either. I did because I didn't want him to come to me and say, "Why did you let me do this????" It's purely for selfish reasons that I ask for these things. Because he loves me, he saw my reasoning and didn't do it. He was tempted. I'm sure that's not the only reason he didn't, but it's a factor, and that's all I can ever hope to be for them. A factor in their decisions.
Tuck
Robyn Carter
Mary:
I have done pretty much as you have. Giving them some information, but not
every gory detail. They know about my alcohol and drug abuse, but not the
particulars, just that it was all before they weree born. my oldest has
asked "is my life now like yours was at this age too", which could not be
further from even a possibility, so I think I laughed and said "NOT"!
Robyn
I have done pretty much as you have. Giving them some information, but not
every gory detail. They know about my alcohol and drug abuse, but not the
particulars, just that it was all before they weree born. my oldest has
asked "is my life now like yours was at this age too", which could not be
further from even a possibility, so I think I laughed and said "NOT"!
Robyn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Bianco" <mummyone24@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Teens: Sex and dating
> >From: Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...>
>
> <<Interesting questions Julie. Basically, while I share my values and
> recount my experiences with my children they are seperate human beings and
> are free to make their own decisions. I feel I will always
> support and love them whatever those decisions are, even if it isn't
> something I would have done myself. I'm not them. Therefore I will never
> feel disappointed or disapproving of anything they did.>>
>
>
>
> Reading Shyrley's post made me think of something I have never quite
figured
> out yet. It's the part about recounting experiences with children. How do
> you handle as parents when children ask what you did at certain ages? I'm
> never quite sure if I should be honest and fess up to my mistakes. My
> children know I made them but I'm talking about particulars here. Or
should
> I say it's not important they know what happened to me? With my oldest
now,
> I have mentioned a few things of my past but also kept some things to
> myself. Just not sure whether it would be wise to share everything she
asks
> about.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Mary B
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
Mary Bianco
>From: "Robyn Carter" <rcarter@...><<Mary:
I have done pretty much as you have. Giving them some information, but not
every gory detail. They know about my alcohol and drug abuse, but not the
particulars, just that it was all before they weree born. my oldest has
asked "is my life now like yours was at this age too", which could not be
further from even a possibility, so I think I laughed and said "NOT"!>>
Robyn, it's a tough one isn't it?? For me, I think it's still "old school"
thinking that makes me uneasy when Tara asks me something about what I use
to do. It's the "if I tell her I did stuff she'll think it's okay for her to
do it" thing. And I really know better now after giving in to all the
trappings of old thinking. Allowing Tara to do as she pleases has proven to
me she has good sense. She has made mistakes I haven't, made some I did and
has done other things I wish I would have. My husband has always been up
front with her about his younger years. She knows how crappy he did in
school, what a burnout he was, all the drugs and drinking he did. She's seen
him clean and sober for over 11 years now. She's never thrown any of that
back on him at all. So I guess I'm still stuck with some old trappings.
Every little time she'll ask, "So mom, did you ever do that?" I get all
crazy inside and wonder what the hell to say.
I'm getting better though. I'm learning too!!!
Mary B
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