[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/03 6:34:03 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< In my ideal world, my daughter wouldn't see
a naked male body until her wedding night. >>

Why? She'd miss out on a lot of great art. Or are you simply meaning a real
live man?
I think if the first time she sees a naked male body is on her wedding night,
it's going to seem very frightening.

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/2003 9:40:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
> << In my ideal world, my daughter wouldn't see
> a naked male body until her wedding night. >>
>
> Why? She'd miss out on a lot of great art. Or are you simply meaning a
> real
> live man?
> I think if the first time she sees a naked male body is on her wedding
> night,
> it's going to seem very frightening.

Yeah! That could be a little creepy! Hell, a LOT creepy!

And then you're going to do WHAT!!???

<G>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shyrley

starsuncloud@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/11/03 6:34:03 AM Central Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << In my ideal world, my daughter wouldn't see
> a naked male body until her wedding night. >>
>
> Why? She'd miss out on a lot of great art. Or are you simply meaning a real
> live man?
> I think if the first time she sees a naked male body is on her wedding night,
> it's going to seem very frightening.
>
> Ren

Western cultures seem to have this prudish taboo agianst the naked body. It's just people, nothing special. If it were common place then maybe people wouldn't obsess about it so much.
I've been to Africa and saw lots of naked people. You stop noticing after a while.

Shyrley

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/2003 10:12:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
shyrley.williams@... writes:
> Western cultures seem to have this prudish taboo agianst the naked body.
> It's just people, nothing special. If it were common place then maybe
> people wouldn't obsess about it so much.
> I've been to Africa and saw lots of naked people. You stop noticing after a
> while.
>

And it's not necessarily Western cultures. Maybe mostly American. The first
uncircumcised penis I saw was at the nude baths/saunas in Weisbaden, Germany.

Shyrley's right. After a while, you quit looking.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 10:17 1/11/03 -0500, Shyrley wrote:
>Western cultures seem to have this prudish taboo agianst the naked body.
>It's just people, nothing special. If it were common place then maybe
>people wouldn't obsess about it so much...

Here, here, Shyrley! It's a bummer that there's so much hype and almost
hysteria around our bodies. When I was 13 back in 1971 I went on a camping
trip with my older sister. Truth be told, it was a bunch of hippies. If
my parents had been wise to what was going on there, I'm sure I would not
have been permitted to go. It was a 4-1/2-mile hike straight uphill from
the road where our dad dropped us off, and we camped there for two
weeks. When I was 13, I was fairly innocent; I was not all that aware of
drugs, I did not smoke cigarettes, I didn't even know that many curse words.

Anyhoo, there were a lot of people camping at this particular spot
also. It wasn't like the campgrounds you see today. It was this wonderful
huge pond along the Appalachian Trail and people would just find a fairly
level spot, set up their tarps (to protect our guitars from the elements)
and sleeping bags, and build a fire pit. Every now and again you'd see a
tent, but that was really rare. It was mighty funky.

What was very interesting (understatement) to me was that there was a
tremendous amount of nudity. Sometimes, people were just walking around
naked. Sometimes folks would just get naked to swim. The first night I was
there, I was pretty uncomfortable and I didn't know what to rest my eyes
on, but it was *the culture* there. You just couldn't stay uncomfortable
with it for long. So...I got comfortable. I got very comfortable.

I never used my bathing suit the whole time I was there. You were only
allowed to camp there for three nights, so whenever a park ranger would
come along, we'd strip and jump into the pond and swim all the way across
the pond to someone else's campsite (about a half mile or so) until the
coast was clear.

But something weird happened. One day I was out in the pond swimming, and
a bunch of Boy Scouts were hiking along the trail. When they saw me out
there swimming naked, they all started yelling at me and cat-calling and
all sorts of embarrassing stuff. I felt that I could not come out of the
water. A friend saw what was going on and tossed me out a shirt, and I was
able to get out. The whole thing made me sad and it made me think.

We have continued the tradition in our family of being comfortable with our
bodies. Liam is naked easily as much as he is dressed and in the
summertime our house is a clothing-optional house. When people come over
to go swimming its okay not to wear bathing suits, and the kids never
do. It is weird, though, how people who are uncomfortable with their
bodies can change the atmosphere for everyone.

Marji (frumpy but comfortable) :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/03 9:48:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> In my ideal world, my daughter wouldn't see
> >a naked male body until her wedding night. >>
> >
> >Why? She'd miss out on a lot of great art. Or are you simply meaning a
> >real
> >live man?
> >I think if the first time she sees a naked male body is on her wedding
> >night,
> >it's going to seem very frightening.
>

I have to agree here.. I think she may be sorely disappointed LOL.. .. In
our home we have very little modesty. We're practically nudists. Seeing a
naked person of the opposite gender has never been a big deal(Im NOT talking
about pornography) Its just skin, ya know.

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shyrley

marji wrote:

> At 10:17 1/11/03 -0500, Shyrley wrote:
> >Western cultures seem to have this prudish taboo agianst the naked body.
> >It's just people, nothing special. If it were common place then maybe
> >people wouldn't obsess about it so much...
>
> Here, here, Shyrley! It's a bummer that there's so much hype and almost
> hysteria around our bodies.

big snip

> We have continued the tradition in our family of being comfortable with our
> bodies. Liam is naked easily as much as he is dressed and in the
> summertime our house is a clothing-optional house. When people come over
> to go swimming its okay not to wear bathing suits, and the kids never
> do. It is weird, though, how people who are uncomfortable with their
> bodies can change the atmosphere for everyone.
>
> Marji (frumpy but comfortable) :-)
>

My 10 yo daughter wandered about without a shirt on last summer. She has no boobs. People here just about had hysterics. Several HS mothers told me it was 'disgusting'.
Lucky they don't live in Europe really. The Danes and Swedes are always running about in the nud!

Shyrley

marji

At 16:52 1/11/03 -0500, Shyrley wrote:

>My 10 yo daughter wandered about without a shirt on last summer. She has
>no boobs. People here just about had hysterics. Several HS mothers told me
>it was 'disgusting'.
>Lucky they don't live in Europe really. The Danes and Swedes are always
>running about in the nud!
>
>Shyrley

Now that's just plain pathetic when MOTHERS can look at a child's unclothed
body and find it 'disgusting.' Sheesh. That's really sad. I don't blame
you for wanting to go back to Europe.

Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

>From: Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...>

<<My 10 yo daughter wandered about without a shirt on last summer. She has
no boobs. People here just about had hysterics. Several HS mothers told me
it was 'disgusting'.
Lucky they don't live in Europe really. The Danes and Swedes are always
running about in the nud!>>

But the point is here in the United States, we do have taboos about nudity
and people don't expect to see naked people on the streets or even for the
most part at the beaches. We do have designated areas where it is okay, but
I do believe it needs to be stated so those who will be offended. If one
wants to walk around naked all day in your own house or back yard and invite
others, fine. I don't expect to see it in public though. And I'm far from a
prude.

When I walk my dogs or take a walk with my kids and the people down the
street on the corner have their son naked all the time, I have a problem
with that. He's maybe 5 and most nights in the summer, totally naked. They
have no fence and he's out in the street anyway. It bothers me. I'm sure if
we all did that, I would be use to it. But we don't here, and for most of
the country, we don't.

Mary B


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kayb85 <[email protected]>

Why would it be frightening? The first time I saw a naked male body
was on my wedding night and I was most definitely not frightened.
Sheila

> I think if the first time she sees a naked male body is on her
wedding night,
> it's going to seem very frightening.

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/03 6:05:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

> The first time I saw a naked male body
> was on my wedding night and I was most definitely not frightened.
>

Never, ever..not in a book, health class, biology class, art, sculpture
etc...Oh my. LOL
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

I have no problem whatsoever seeing a pre-pubescent child running
around naked. My husband, however, is not comfortable allowing ours
to run around naked outside, even in our own yard. He works in a
prison and has read one too many files on child molestors.
Sheila

> When I walk my dogs or take a walk with my kids and the people down
the
> street on the corner have their son naked all the time, I have a
problem
> with that. He's maybe 5 and most nights in the summer, totally
naked. They
> have no fence and he's out in the street anyway. It bothers me. I'm
sure if
> we all did that, I would be use to it. But we don't here, and for
most of
> the country, we don't.
>
> Mary B
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], genant2@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/11/03 6:05:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sheran@p...
> writes:
>
> > The first time I saw a naked male body
> > was on my wedding night and I was most definitely not frightened.
> >
>
> Never, ever..not in a book, health class, biology class, art,
sculpture
> etc...Oh my. LOL

I had seen sketches. I had a general idea, but none of the text book
or encyclopedia sketches that I saw looked anything like the real
thing. <grin>

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/03 5:49:24 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< The first time I saw a naked male body
> > was on my wedding night and I was most definitely not frightened >>

I am sure there must have been some anxiety. Maybe frightened is too strong a
word, but sheesh! There is no way a person who hasn't even seen a male body
is going to be comfortable exploring their sexuality with a man right away. I
don't believe that.
Are you saying you were perfectly comfortable right off the bat, no confusion
about sex or male parts?
My kids are going to get "The joy of Sex" or some similar book as a wedding
gift. And they have anatomy books here, and have seen us running around
either naked or in undies. Jared saw me in thong underwear the other day and
went "EEEEeeew" and then "why doesn't it have a butt on it?" :)
My mil hadn't been told anything about sex or male parts and had never seen a
male body before she got married. I had some conversations with her about how
very frightening the first night was and how she wished someone would have
been more open with her.

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

bluelotus

<< When I walk my dogs or take a walk with my kids and the people down the
street on the corner have their son naked all the time, I have a problem
with that. He's maybe 5 and most nights in the summer, totally naked. They
have no fence and he's out in the street anyway. It bothers me. I'm sure if
we all did that, I would be use to it. But we don't here, and for most of
the country, we don't. >>

In this country, people may call dss when they see a naked kid walking out of a house, from what I've heard...

Yol

--

Blue Lotus Therapeutics -
Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Yoga & Therapeutic Massage
http://www.bluelotustherapeutics.com

Dhyanyoga Center of NC -
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga
http://www.dyc-nc.org

**********************************
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. The world is ruled by
letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
-- Tao Te Ching
**********************************

kayb85 <[email protected]>

> I am sure there must have been some anxiety. Maybe frightened is
too strong a
> word, but sheesh!

I think the best word would be anticipation. Like a little kid
waiting for Christmas morning, only even more so. But no fear.

There is no way a person who hasn't even seen a male body
> is going to be comfortable exploring their sexuality with a man
right away.
I
> don't believe that.

We learned and explored together. He knew a little bit more than me,
but neither one of us knew a lot. We were completely comfortable
with each other.

> Are you saying you were perfectly comfortable right off the bat, no
confusion
> about sex or male parts?

Our first time lasted about 30 seconds because it was painful for me.
It certainly didn't look like it does on the soap operas! We didn't
need to know everything in order to be comfortable with each other.
It's not like we were judging each other on performance. We didn't
have a lot of money back then, but we didn't need it. We spent most
of our time in the bedroom learning. ;)

> My kids are going to get "The joy of Sex" or some similar book as a
wedding
> gift.

We bought ourselves books like that. They were fun to read
together. I think they would make a great wedding present for your
kids. :)

And they have anatomy books here, and have seen us running around
> either naked or in undies.

Our kids see us in our undies, but past a certain point--it's usually
been around age 5--we try to not be naked in front of kids of the
opposite sex. If it happens accidentally we don't freak out about it
or anything.


> My mil hadn't been told anything about sex or male parts and had
never seen a
> male body before she got married. I had some conversations with her
about how
> very frightening the first night was and how she wished someone
would have
> been more open with her.

The thing is, my husband and I were very open with each other. We
were like two little kids who got to explore a new castle. There were
lots of doors to look behind and lots of unknowns--but that was half
the fun. And as long as we were together, we weren't scared. It
wasn't about him having his way with me or me trying to hide fear in
order to please him. It was about us starting a new exciting
adventure together.
Sheila

marji

At 03:41 1/12/03 +0000, Sheila wrote:
>...The thing is, my husband and I were very open with each other. We were
>like two little kids who got to explore a new castle. There were lots of
>doors to look behind and lots of unknowns--but that was half the fun. And
>as long as we were together, we weren't scared. It wasn't about him
>having his way with me or me trying to hide fear in order to please
>him. It was about us starting a new exciting adventure together.
>Sheila

This is very sweet, and it was very generous of you to share it.

Marji


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

>From: starsuncloud@...

<<My kids are going to get "The joy of Sex" or some similar book as a
wedding gift. And they have anatomy books here, and have seen us running
around either naked or in undies. Jared saw me in thong underwear the other
day and went "EEEEeeew" and then "why doesn't it have a butt on it?" :)>>



Well Ren if I were you, I would give it as a wedding shower gift. That way
they have time to read it!!!!!

My Sierra just asked me the other night if Tara's and my underwear (thongs)
come like that or we pull them up that way!!!

Mary B


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Mary Bianco

>From: "kayb85 <sheran@...>" <sheran@...>

<<The thing is, my husband and I were very open with each other. We
were like two little kids who got to explore a new castle. There were
lots of doors to look behind and lots of unknowns--but that was half
the fun. And as long as we were together, we weren't scared. It
wasn't about him having his way with me or me trying to hide fear in
order to please him. It was about us starting a new exciting
adventure together.>>


What a nice way to put it. I'm glad it all worked out for you both! I would
certainly want my children to have the same feelings and experience. The
only thing is I wouldn't expect it to necessarily be in marriage or to last
forever with that person.

Mary B



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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/2003 5:04:26 PM Central Standard Time,
mummyone24@... writes:

> But the point is here in the United States, we do have taboos about nudity
> and people don't expect to see naked people on the streets or even for the
> most part at the beaches. We do have designated areas where it is okay, but
>
> I do believe it needs to be stated so those who will be offended. If one
> wants to walk around naked all day in your own house or back yard and
> invite
> others, fine. I don't expect to see it in public though.

But the girl is 10, and doesn't have breasts. Her body was probably
virtually indistinguishable from my 9 yo boy's, who lives in shorts and
nothing else all summer. And HE can do that until the rest of his life,
and she can't. I think it's WONDERFUL that she was able to have that summer
of freedom, that boys have forever, before she does get breasts. Why
bregrudge her?

Tuck



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/2003 5:39:47 PM Central Standard Time, sheran@...
writes:

> He works in a
> prison and has read one too many files on child molestors.
>

I'm sure I'm not the only one who will say this. It's not the child's fault.

Shuddering Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85 <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], tuckervill@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/11/2003 5:39:47 PM Central Standard Time,
sheran@p...
> writes:
>
> > He works in a
> > prison and has read one too many files on child molestors.
> >
>
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who will say this. It's not the
child's fault.
>
> Shuddering Tuck


Of course I agree with you. But he doesn't feel safe letting them
playing outside naked, knowing that some sick person might be
watching.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/03 2:02:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:

> He works in a
> >prison and has read one too many files on child molestors.
> >
>
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who will say this. It's not the child's
> fault.
>
> Shuddering Tuck
>

Yeah.. a 10 yr girl running around without a shirt is NOT trying to solicit
child molestors. Just like a lady wearing a short skirt and low cut blouse
is NOT asking to be raped. Although , if she were raped, the arguement would
be made that she "asked for it" Once, way back when I was a new, young
mother, I was probably about 20., a co-worker who had children MY age said
that her husband would not let them wear backless sundressese or two piece
bathing suits as babies ( or heck, as children, period) He felt it was
improper, it may serve to "tease" child molestors. I thought OMG.. HE is the
one that is perverted.. ANYONE who would look at a baby and say they had the
potential to "tease" someone has got to be seriously whacked. I would say
that if someone feels uncomfortable seeing a child nude, then they are the
ones viewing the child in a sexual manner. Like I said before, the bottom
line is, its just skin.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shyrley

tuckervill@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/11/2003 5:04:26 PM Central Standard Time,
> mummyone24@... writes:
>
> > But the point is here in the United States, we do have taboos about nudity
> > and people don't expect to see naked people on the streets or even for the
> > most part at the beaches. We do have designated areas where it is okay, but
> >
> > I do believe it needs to be stated so those who will be offended. If one
> > wants to walk around naked all day in your own house or back yard and
> > invite
> > others, fine. I don't expect to see it in public though.
>
> But the girl is 10, and doesn't have breasts. Her body was probably
> virtually indistinguishable from my 9 yo boy's, who lives in shorts and
> nothing else all summer. And HE can do that until the rest of his life,
> and she can't. I think it's WONDERFUL that she was able to have that summer
> of freedom, that boys have forever, before she does get breasts. Why
> bregrudge her?
>
> Tuck
>

My thoughts exactly.
I often envied my brothers during hot summers when they could run around in shorts and I had to put on a T-shirt too.
It didn't bother me that she got so hot and sweaty (and VA summers are huuuuuuuuumid) that she tok her shirt off.

Shyrley

Shyrley

tuckervill@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/11/2003 5:39:47 PM Central Standard Time, sheran@...
> writes:
>
> > He works in a
> > prison and has read one too many files on child molestors.
> >
>
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who will say this. It's not the child's fault.
>
> Shuddering Tuck
>

Yup, thats the same sort of arguments that favour women having a curfew because some men rape. Why should children and women be restricted cos of some loonys. We'll all be in purdah next 'to protect us'

Shyrley

Mary Bianco

>From: grlynbl@...

<<I would say that if someone feels uncomfortable seeing a child nude, then
they are the ones viewing the child in a sexual manner. Like I said before,
the bottom line is, its just skin.>>



So let me get this correct. Me being uncomfortable with seeing the neighbor
boy running the street naked makes me a pervert?

Mary B


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*.
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Shyrley

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/12/2003 4:14:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> shyrley.williams@... writes:
> > We'll all be in purdah next 'to protect us'
> >
> Could you please translate? Is "purdah" a Britishism?
>
> ~Kelly. befuddled
>

Its a term used in Pakistan to denote the seperate quarters and social exclusion of women.
The women in the home remain in purdah when there are visitirs from outside the family.

Shyrley

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/2003 2:17:12 PM Central Standard Time,
mummyone24@... writes:

> <<I a
> they are the ones viewing the child in a sexual manner. Like I said before,
>
> the bottom line is, its just skin.>>
>
>
>
> So let me get this correct. Me being uncomfortable with seeing the neighbor
>
> boy running the street naked makes me a pervert?
>

I don't know how you got there. But if that's what they meant, that idea
doesn't bother me near as much as the idea that my kid walking around naked
outside is some kind of excuse for a pervert to do something perverted.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachel Ann

Not an excuse; but it could increase the possiblity that the child may be
assaulted, or lead to a molester following that child. However, my own
personal belief is that you can not know what attracts such a person any
more than you can know what will attract a rapist; wearing long, modest
skirts, and keeping the eyes downcast may very well be what hooks some
monster... Molesters are monsters; there is no secret outfit that will
protect you from them.


be well,
Rachel Ann


I don't know how you got there. But if that's what they meant, that idea
doesn't bother me near as much as the idea that my kid walking around naked
outside is some kind of excuse for a pervert to do something perverted.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/2003 4:14:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
shyrley.williams@... writes:
> We'll all be in purdah next 'to protect us'
>
Could you please translate? Is "purdah" a Britishism?

~Kelly. befuddled


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]