Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

It's interesting to read about non-coercive parenting. I like much
of what you all share here. Some of it makes me uncomfortable.

We have routines in place that help the household run, but I am
a fairly random personality so they are definitely not rigid.

The way I've seen it is that we all make a mess together living in
this house so we should all cooperate in cleaning it up. With
seven of us, that works better on a routine with everyone giving
effort. We have a weekly clean-up on Sat. mornings and the kids
do all the dishes and table stuff every night. Rooms are all
cleaned every week and all kids do their own laundry starting at
age 6. Everyone works on the yard--mowing, raking, snow
shoveling. No one is exempt. And we do it together.

This is incredibly liberating to me and to us as a family. No one
feels put upon and there is an esprit de corps that is very healthy.
I love listening to the kids talk to each other at night while they
clean up. They turn up their music and laugh and chat. it's such a
neat time! I imagine they will remember it fondly when they are
older. But now, they would of course say no if I offered them a
choice between cleaning plates and playing X Box.

When I think of unschooling and NCP, I think of creating a context
for maximum freedom to create... freedom to, rather than
freedom from. In our home, that will mean that we'll continue
these routines as they are. (We've given them the freedom to
modify how the turns get set up and who does waht jobs... they
are very democratic about it, actually.)

I guess telling them to come downstairs dressed, with beds
made and to eat breakfast before moving on with the day didn't
seem coercive to me. It seemed necessary for our family to
function well.

How does yur family do it?

Julie B

[email protected]

Julie,

I have a lot of the same ideas as you about our family working together to
keep things in some semblance of "decency".. ( as far as housekeeping,
laundry, cooking, yardwork, etc) I know that most folks here dont agree
with parents asking thier kids to pitch in.. but, so far, I havent really
come up with an alternative. I have been trying though.. trying to see
other ways to survive as a family without depending on assistance from the
kids. I have never, ever been hard lined about chores or duties or jobs or
the like. But, generally speaking, I would ask the kids to pick up after
themselves, take thier dirty dishes to the kitchen, put thier things away. .
help carry in groceries, help with supper.. etc.. I dont have any "rules"
about thier rooms or beds.. Anna cleans her room when it gets too messy for
her likeing ( which is not too messy) Landon keeps his room clean, but he
didnt til he was about 13.. til then it was atrocious. The younger boys, 11
and 7, thier room is still atrocious. I mean, cant walk, food spilled,
clothes out, call the health dept atrocious. Its no use to ask them to
clean it up.. They cant, it gets so bad that it is beyond thier capablities..
Then, they have no where to play, so they spill out into the living room and
other rooms ( that is where my asking them to pick up comes in, when it
infringes on the "common rooms" we all use) Dh and I cleaned it up after
Christmas just so they would have a place to put thier new stuff. Well,
guess what, its trashed again. I would use gentle reminders before it got
out of hand.. Hey guys, maybe you should pick up your stuff , theres not too
much to do. I even picked it up a few times.. But, it never fails, it gets
BEYOND bad. Anyway, enough of my dirty room troubles. I guess what I am
saying is, I can empathize.. and I hope that in time I can begin to
understand how to manage my household without "coercing" my children into
helping me. If I spend all of my time picking up after them, cleaning up,
doing ALL the work around here, then how will we have time to do anything
fun? And if I just leave the mess and let it all go, then we will become the
type of family that others have talked about the.. "unclean, unhealthy,
unfit" stereotype. Its difficult to find the balance

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 9:04:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> ) I know that most folks here dont agree
> with parents asking thier kids to pitch in..
I'vce never heard this said.
What I've heard is that parents ASK (not tell) and when you ASK, the answer
may be NO.

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 9:04:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> and I hope that in time I can begin to
> understand how to manage my household without "coercing" my children into
> helping me. If I spend all of my time picking up after them, cleaning up,
> doing ALL the work around here, then how will we have time to do anything
> fun?

If your children would completely stop helping when given the choice, Why ARE
they helping? Not out of a desire to help. I want my kids to WANT to help,
not HAVE to help.
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 9:10:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> What I've heard is that parents ASK (not tell) and when you ASK, the answer
> may be NO.
>

Yeah, and it the answer is no, then your back to your dilema of how to manage
all by your lonesome..

Teresa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

 

In a message dated 1/8/03 9:04:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
grlynbl@a...
writes:

> and I hope that in time I can begin to
> understand how to manage my household without "coercing"
my children into
> helping me. If I spend all of my time picking up after them,
cleaning up,
> doing ALL the work around here, then how will we have time to
do anything
> fun?

>>>If your children would completely stop helping when given
the choice, Why ARE
they helping? Not out of a desire to help. I want my kids to WANT
to help,
not HAVE to help.
*~*Elissa Jill*~*


Elissa, I don't think they have to want to help. I think they need to
realize that their help is valuable. I don't want to make dinner
most nights. Really. But I do it because I know it is valuable to
the family.

Our philosophy aobut cleaning and supporting the home and
family is based on a desire to liberate me, as well. I am not the
default housekeeper. I am one of seven who makes messes
and consumes food.

So we deal with kids calmly and with reason: everyone who lives
here helps. We all pitch in. No one is above another. And when
you earn money, have your own pad and your own belongings
that you purchased, you can run that home however you like.
While living here, you pitch in.

Because we all do it, I've never seen a child really balk. At times
they grumble... but hey! So do I. Still, they do their part and I
believe are in the end happier for being contributors, not just
consumers.

Julie B

Tia Leschke

> > What I've heard is that parents ASK (not tell) and when you ASK, the
answer
> > may be NO.
> >
>
> Yeah, and it the answer is no, then your back to your dilema of how to
manage
> all by your lonesome..

"Mom, can you come read to me?" "Sure dear, as soon as I've done these
dishes." That might get an offer to help. (or not) I've often offered to
read to a dishwasher (the human kind - I'm not *that* crazy).
Tia

Deborah Lewis

On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 01:21:54 -0000 "Julie Bogart <julie@...>"
writes:

***How does your family do it?***

My son didn't apply for a job here.<g> He didn't even volunteer. He
didn't get to choose to be born into a clean bedroom or a messy one.
I did the choosing.

So, I have happily gone about taking care of my house when I wanted to
and he has grown up believing that cleaning is what you do when you need
or want something clean.
I'm not a clean freak. A clean sink isn't more important than a snowball
fight or a walk down to the creek, or a trip to the store for a Root
Beer. But I do clean when the mood strikes me and I don't make my
family feel like I'm laboring under some great chore for their benefit.
I clean up when I want to. I model good clean up person behavior.<g>

He's ten and he shovels the sidewalk when it snows.
He takes the garbage out if he notices it's full. He does dishes
sometimes and sweeps up if the contents of the litter pan seem to be
migrating. If I bring clothes in from the line or the dryer and don't
get to them right away, he folds clothes.
And I think, because he's never been made to do chores when I do need
help and ask, he almost always says yes, and helps in whatever way I
need. The few times he's said no he had a good reason. Likewise, when
he needs help with something and asks me, I help.

He's thoughtful about messes, and if he's made one in an area where the
rest of the family might be inconvenienced by it he cleans it up when
he's finished. If he doesn't feel like cleaning up but the mess is in
my way, I clean it up. He would do the same for me, and has.

I don't tell my husband he has to vacuum because he's part of the family
and it's his responsibility. If I'd like help with the vacuuming, I ask.
If he can't do it, then I do it, or it waits.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 9:48:17 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Yeah, and it the answer is no, then your back to your dilema of how to
manage
all by your lonesome.. >>

Not having lived the other side of this issue I can see how a person might
feel this way. But it's not true.
My kids actually care about helping out now, not because I make them, but
because it's their choice. And choosing to make their Moms life a little
easier is something they care about.
My expectations have also changed. The level of cleanliness that I enjoy is
not the same as what they are comfortable with. So I keep it to my level of
comfort and only ask for help where it makes sense. AND they do have the
option to say no, but typically I really do need help when I ask and they can
see that. Like picking up some things before we leave, or getting dishes to
the kitchen etc...
It's interesting, because the more I backed off, the more willing they were
to help when I asked for it. But I respect it when they say "In a minute,
we're in the middle of something"

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

Gerard Westenberg

<Yeah, and it the answer is no, then your back to your dilema of how to manage
all by your lonesome.. >

But I have never had a *no..I've had a *in a minute or an *I'll just do thisor even a *Do I have to?( no) or a *why- these last two lead to discussion and thought from all concerned...Leonie W.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan & Brenda Leonard

1/9/03 02:25:

> I guess telling them to come downstairs dressed, with beds
> made and to eat breakfast before moving on with the day didn't
> seem coercive to me. It seemed necessary for our family to
> function well.
>
> How does yur family do it?

We eat dinner together as a family, and my dh and I deal with dishes after
Tim goes off to his room for the evening. When my husband is in town (which
isn't often enough!), after dinner is our family time. I don't want to
waste it doing dishes. He and I use the kitchen clean-up time to talk,
later at night, and that works for us.

Tim and I get up in the morning when we like, but usually between about 7:30
and 9. We eat when we get hungry. Pajamas stay on until I feel like taking
a shower, or we need to get dressed to go out. I don't think breakfast
tastes any different in day clothes than pj's. Sometimes we eat breakfast
together, but often I'm hungry first. Tim eats more as the day goes on;
he's not big on breakfast anyhow.

What difference does it make if the beds get made or not? I always pull the
covers up on my bed because it gets used as an extra sitting place and I
don't like dirt in it. Tim hardly ever makes his bed, but it's a loft and
generally only used for sleeping.

I do the day to day cleaning and picking up, on and off throught the day.
My husband and I do the vacuuming and stuff together when possible, since
it's easier for one to vacuum and another to move furniture. I clean the
bathroom. My tolerance level for it being dirty is the lowest.

Tim doesn't have chores, but he helps with a myriad of things, especially
the little jobs. He tries to keep his toys reasonably neat, especially the
little lego pieces, because he knows I don't like to come into his room in
the night if I'm afraid of stepping on one! I reshelve the books he takes
out during the day while he gets read for bed at night because it's easier
for me, he gets frustrated trying to hold back the stacks and slide them in.

I live in Army family housing, so the outdoor stuff is done for us.

Does that help?

brenda

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 9:16:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> then your back to your dilema of how to manage
> all by your lonesome..
>
>
True, I'm not arguing that dilemma, I face it myself. And I look at it like
this.
My children are learning to read, compute, write due to their efforts n
rather than mine, with my help as they request it. I apply that learning
principal to other areas such as what they wear, when they go to sleep, yadda
yadda yadda. So it applies to learning to be neat and clean.
So what do I do? Stop asking, make cleaning look like just another thing that
gets done in the day to day living, rather than the big deal I make it out to
be, encourage them to join in on the "fun" jobs, (windexing, dusting, cooking
or whatever) accept that my priority to clean is not their priority, and do
it myself.
Unfortunately at this stage (as I realized yesterday) I have been slipping
back and forth between trusting them to learn in their own time and way and
getting pissed off and yelling every other week or so about the condition of
the house and trying to make them fell guilty about not helping me. Yesterday
I understood that I was paralleling () learning to unschool. I lay off them
for a while, things start to calm down, I SLACK OFF MY CLEANING and BAM! the
house is a mess *I* am overwhelmed and the kids are getting yelled at. NOT
working.
So what have I decided to do about that? Well, some standards have to relax
first off. Second, I talked to Joe about the situation and told him WHY I
don't want to make the kids help, that then when given the CHOICE to help,
they will choose no, and third, If this is something that is important to me,
I'll treat it as such. LIke a hobby. I've started to reread "The Messies
Manual" and will go back on Fly Lady. I'm going to take baby steps and do
what I WANT to do and not worry about the rest. When I had that attitude
before, that my priorities are mine and not anyone else's, I was HAPPY to do
the cleaning. I enjoyed it, and loved to get up and make a cup of tea from my
clean teakettle, in a mug that was in the cabinet and washed.
Now, I'm not advocating all the above to everyone, some people couldn't care
less! I feel this to be a priority because when MY house is cluttered and
messy and nothing can be found, it (the disorganization and clutter) seems to
worm it's way into my mind. I get disorganized in my thoughts, and if other
conditions are right, It leads to a horrible period of depression. So I need
to take care of myself, And keeping my house clean myself, rather than
waiting for others to pitch in, is one very important way for me to take care
of myself.
Whew, so many words for 7:15 am!
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
Unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 9:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, leschke@...
writes:

> "Mom, can you come read to me?" "Sure dear, as soon as I've done these
> dishes." That might get an offer to help. (or not) I've often offered to
> read to a dishwasher (the human kind - I'm not *that* crazy).
> Tia
>
>
>
This is also something that is helpful. Joe and I made a commitment that we
(Joe and I) finish our cleaning before going anywhere. If there are dishes
sitting in the sink, we need to finish them before going to a movie or the
grocery store or the bank.
Last night DH and I were cleaning the living room and Emily wanted to stop at
the grocery store before riding class, we lovingly and casually told her that
we planned on finishing the living room first so we may not have time but if
she helped a little we could get done faster. She chose to make a list so her
father could get the items while she was having her lesson.
She chose. That is the key for me. It all goes back to the underlying
philosophy of choice.
That is my goal in this part of life, that my children feel comfortable
making their choices.

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 10:57:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

> I model good clean up person behavior.<g>
>
>
Which is what I've realized that I'm not doing.
So I'm going to come here and cry to you guys, "I want a maid!!"

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 1/8/03 9:08 PM, Earthmomma67@... at Earthmomma67@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/8/03 9:04:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
> writes:
>
>> ) I know that most folks here dont agree
>> with parents asking thier kids to pitch in..
> I'vce never heard this said.
> What I've heard is that parents ASK (not tell) and when you ASK, the answer
> may be NO.

And what I've also heard is people will say "I have to make my children ..."
And people will respond with "No, you don't."

It's helping people see that they are *choosing* to do it that way.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/2003 6:14:00 AM Central Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> Now, I'm not advocating all the above to everyone, some people couldn't care
>
> less! I feel this to be a priority because when MY house is cluttered and
> messy and nothing can be found, it (the disorganization and clutter) seems
> to
> worm it's way into my mind. I get disorganized in my thoughts, and if other
>
> conditions are right, It leads to a horrible period of depression. So I
> need
> to take care of myself, And keeping my house clean myself, rather than
> waiting for others to pitch in, is one very important way for me to take
> care
> of myself.
>

But I don't understand why it's not okay to ask for and expect a little
consideration of all that from the rest of the family? You have needs, too.
You have needs, TOO.

I have a family of all males, and I'll be darned if I'm going to let them get
an INKLING of the idea that housework is for women and women are for
housework. I don't see how doing it all myself for my own reasons would give
them any other idea. In the land where a "good wife" gets up and keeps
hubby's tea filled and makes his plate, I'm already fighting an uphill
battle. I'm not doing it. For the sakes of my future daughter-in-laws, I'm
not.

Luckily for me, I have a husband who does housework without a second thought.
(He's NOT from the South. <g>) And over the years with our kids we've worked
out principles about the way the household runs and it runs pretty well. My
older kids know how to do all the household chores because they've done them
all. The 9 yo is still learning. They can all see why having a clean house
is a good idea, and when it's a better idea than others, and they do what has
to be done without complaining. They also do it without being asked, too.

It amazes me when I hear moms say they will meet every need of their
children, yet not give their kids that same satisfaction of meeting their
own.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 8:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:

> The way I've seen it is that we all make a mess together living in
> this house so we should all cooperate in cleaning it up

That was how I saw it in our house for a while, although I could not get
people to cooperate with my idea that we should clean it up together. Then I
realized that it was my idea and that I was the only one that thought that
way. I can't control other people. LOL. So I changed my thinking. I clean
when I want to or things are in my way and we all do the same. My boys do
however have a general respect for cleanliness. They don't leave food around
because they don't like that kind of mess etc. It was so liberating to
change the way I saw house cleaning. Now the clutter doesn't bother me.
When it does I pick up a little. If I want to clean up some toys the boys
were playing with several days ago I make sure to ask them first, who knows
they might be still playing with it.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/03 9:03:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> , I would ask the kids to pick up after
> themselves, take thier dirty dishes to the kitchen, put thier things away.
> .
> help carry in groceries, help with supper.. etc..

I do ask my children these things bu tthey always have the right to say no
and I accept that.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/03 9:03:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:

> But I don't understand why it's not okay to ask for and expect a little
> consideration of all that from the rest of the family? You have needs,
> too.
> You have needs, TOO.
>
>

And I can take care of those needs unrelated to housecleaning, I can CHOOSE
to not clean.
I now choose to keep a clean house, so now that I have something that I am
considering a priority, why should I make the others take on my priority?
What if I decided that I needed to work out every day? Working out is much
more easy, goes faster and it is helpful to have a partner. Should I "make"
my kids exercise? Or should I make it seem like I'm having a good time and
it's not a hated thing to do?
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

 
Tuck said:

But I don't understand why it's not okay to ask for and expect a
little
consideration of all that from the rest of the family? You have
needs, too.
You have needs, TOO.

>I have a family of all males, and I'll be darned if I'm going to let
them get
an INKLING of the idea that housework is for women and
women are for
housework. I don't see how doing it all myself for my own
reasons would give
them any other idea. In the land where a "good wife" gets up and
keeps
hubby's tea filled and makes his plate, I'm already fighting an
uphill
battle. I'm not doing it. For the sakes of my future
daughter-in-laws, I'm
not.

>Luckily for me, I have a husband who does housework without
a second thought.
(He's NOT from the South. <g>) And over the years with our kids
we've worked
out principles about the way the household runs and it runs
pretty well. My
older kids know how to do all the household chores because
they've done them
all. The 9 yo is still learning. They can all see why having a
clean house
is a good idea, and when it's a better idea than others, and they
do what has
to be done without complaining. They also do it without being
asked, too.

>It amazes me when I hear moms say they will meet every need
of their
children, yet not give their kids that same satisfaction of meeting
their
own.

>Tuck

Thank you for saying exactly what I wanted to say.

Brilliant. I will not assume that if the kids won't do housework by
choice then it must fall to me to do it. Until we live independent of
each other, there needs to be cooperation in how we share this
space. We've given our kids lots of space to determine how they
do their jobs, how they rotate those jobs and when they get them
done. But they will do them, or they won't be able to do the things
they enjoy. Just like me. Just like my dh.

I have never liked cleaning. I grew up with a maid. I do it now only
because having an orderly home keeps us all sane, safe and
free to use our space without clutter and chaos. We've shared
that vision with our kids, assigned them tasks and have listened
tp their ideas of how to make it work. They pitch in to make our
vision happen. We expect it.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/03 9:03:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:

> But I don't understand why it's not okay to ask for and expect a little
> consideration of all that from the rest of the family? You have needs,
> too.
> You have needs, TOO.


So should I force them to meet those needs?

>
> I have a family of all males, and I'll be darned if I'm going to let them
> get
> an INKLING of the idea that housework is for women and women are for
> housework. I don't see how doing it all myself for my own reasons would
> give
> them any other idea. In the land where a "good wife" gets up and keeps
> hubby's tea filled and makes his plate, I'm already fighting an uphill
> battle. I'm not doing it. For the sakes of my future daughter-in-laws,
> I'm
> not.


I am the parent at home, I happen to be female. When my husband was the
parent at home (and he happens to be male) he was (more) responsible for the
cleaning. There's no sexual stereotypes being perpetuated. And he does help
out. I'm (mostly) talking about the kids.

>
> Luckily for me, I have a husband who does housework without a second
> thought.
> (He's NOT from the South. <g>) And over the years with our kids we've
> worked
> out principles about the way the household runs and it runs pretty well.
> My
> older kids know how to do all the household chores because they've done
> them
> all. The 9 yo is still learning. They can all see why having a clean
> house
> is a good idea, and when it's a better idea than others, and they do what
> has
> to be done without complaining. They also do it without being asked, too.
>

Is this becasue cleaning the house was just something that was always done?
Weren't they doing what thtey saw?

>
> It amazes me when I hear moms say they will meet every need of their
> children, yet not give their kids that same satisfaction of meeting their
> own.
>
> Tuck
>
>
>

I'm not sure when this was said. I try to meet my childrens Needs, and help
them get what they want. I'm not a martyr though. I'm just trying to find a
way for the children to learn something without resorting to coersive
parenting. Cleaning by coersion doesn't work here, and from what I understand
about coersion through this list, it may work in the short run but not in the
long.
Like I said before, I don't want my children just to help me, I want them to
WANT to help me. It's a different goal. They currently don't want to. So what
do I do?
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:28:46 AM Central Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> I now choose to keep a clean house, so now that I have something that I am
> considering a priority, why should I make the others take on my priority?
>

Because all through their lives your kids are going to ask you to make their
priorities yours as well. It's what a relationship is.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:39:47 AM Central Standard Time,
julie@... writes:

> We've given our kids lots of space to determine how they
> do their jobs, how they rotate those jobs and when they get them
> done.

Here's where we disagree. No one owns the "jobs" in our house. The jobs
don't have any value judgment attached to them. They're all just tasks on a
list. I can't demonstrate the idiocy of "women's work" if say "that's your
job".

My 20 yo cleaned up my 9 yo's room the other day. I asked him to, because
the 9 yo was at baseball practice or something, and someone with toddlers was
coming over. (That room is not a safe one for toddlers if it's messy). He
didn't mind. In general, though, there's an expectation of kindness and
consideration and folks should clean up after themselves based on that idea.
But if they can't, and it needs to be done right away, someone else will.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/03 9:44:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:

> Because all through their lives your kids are going to ask you to make their
>
> priorities yours as well. It's what a relationship is.
>
> Tuck
>
>
>

I'm getting confused. WHat are you suggesting I do?
I'm saying (basically) that I want them to develop the caring and empathy
needed to be aware of other people's needs and wants and to desire to help
them achieve those needs and wants. That is my goal. My goal is NOT to make
my children clean the house.
Ifeel like you think I'm saying my kids should get a free ride and not have
to clean. ever. I just want to know how to do this without tears and yelling
and punishment. All I hear is "But they are a part of the family so they
SHOULD help" well, Yeah!! of course they should. But they aren't. SO now
what?
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:44:13 AM Central Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> But I don't understand why it's not okay to ask for and expect a little
> >consideration of all that from the rest of the family? You have needs,
> >too.
> >You have needs, TOO.
>
>
> So should I force them to meet those needs?
>
>

No. They don't force you to meet theirs, either. You have internal
motivation to do so. Part of living in relationship with other people is
meeting their needs because you love them. I'm saying give your children an
opportunity to see your needs and respond to them with love at the level of
their readiness.

>>Like I said before, I don't want my children just to help me, I want them
to
WANT to help me. It's a different goal. They currently don't want to. So what

do I do?>>

There may be nothing you can do at this point. But my goal is what I said
earlier. Meeting each other's needs based on the relationship we are in. It
is in constant flux. I believe that if someone doesn't fully express their
needs (in context of age, place, time) then they are not fully participating
in a relationship. They are not giving the other person full autonomy to
react and respond to their needs as they can and will.

It's another area where respect for the whole person of the child can be
given, and can be beneficial to everyone in the relationship

Tuck




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:54:13 AM Central Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:

> I'm saying (basically) that I want them to develop the caring and empathy
> needed to be aware of other people's needs and wants and to desire to help
> them achieve those needs and wants. That is my goal

Right. But they can't DO that if they don't know what your needs are.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/03 9:52:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:

> . In general, though, there's an expectation of kindness and
> consideration and folks should clean up after themselves based on that
> idea.
>
>
This is what I want to cultivate. But HOW?

<<But if they can't, and it needs to be done right away, someone else will. >
><
<
Right now, that someone is me, and when dh can help it's also him.


*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

Elissa, you said:


Like I said before, I don't want my children just to help me, I want
them to
WANT to help me. It's a different goal. They currently don't want
to. So what
do I do?

Me:

I wonder if there isn't a difference between "wanting to" and
"being willing to." This is how I see it in our home. None of us
really wants to clean the bathrooms. I don't get a high off of
cleaning (some women do). But it needs to be done. We've
discussed how to get it done. Lots of input from this
democratically run household.

Some weekends it isn't feasible for some reason (a child stayed
up too late at a friend's, we have a basketball game, there's a
special program on TV) so the scheduled time to do it is altered,
or a kid swaps with someone else.

But we aren't asking if someone "wants to clean," we are
creating a routine that includes cleaning and are allowing for the
variances that go with living our lives. Everyone who participates
benefits and we've sold our kids on this idea simply by having
the calm discussion and explanation of what will happen in this
house.

I feel like what I'm hearing here is that everything needs to be
offered as optional. That seems to take the ideas beyond what
they are meant to achieve. The goal is to have children who can
honestly lead their lives from a position of power, internal
congruence and healthy participation in life. They don't have to
always ask themselves if what they are about to do is
pleasurable (which is what "want to" sounds like in my ears).

Also, I don't see kids work as "help." I never ask for help in that
sense. I say, "Hey you left the milk and cereal out. It needs to be
put away." There is no request. No option. Just the calm
description of reality and I fully expect that the child will hop up
and take care of it.

Why would I ask whether he wanted to or not? I don't understand
this and I'm not trying to be dense. And I don't think I am creating
good results with a damaging philosophy. In fact, I feel I'm
teaching my kids how to choose to participate in the running of a
household for the sake of others whether it pleases them in the
moment or not.

If someone is flat out unhappy with his or her task, feels
overwhelmed with life, has a reason for not picking up after
lunch... I'm all ears. But those ought to be exceptions, not the
norm, imho.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/9/03 10:00:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:

> Right. But they can't DO that if they don't know what your needs are.
>
> Tuck
>
>
>
They know. I've told them. But I have been asking them to do what *I* am so
unwilling to do. If *I* am unwilling to meet my own needs, why would anyone
else want to do so?
One can only change oneself, right?

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Exactly Elissa,

I just this morning had to go through the mess thing, again, with my dh,

I kind-of went into like, this is their learning environment, they learn best when they are doing what they want to do, if I am constantly picking up their things or harping on them to clean up they will never want to do anything. They'll give up and just do things that don't make a mess, not good in my opinion.

Today we are going to start creating our museum, going to have an art wall in our kitchen, and I'm searching through the house to find a table of some sort to put there other creations.

We have never done something like this and they thought it was a cool idea.

I think its all in how we look at it, its the mind set. Yet I know some days the mind set it good and positive and on others its down and negative. I'm working on trying to get my good and positive to outweigh the down and negative!

Kelli


Earthmomma67@... wrote:In a message dated 1/8/03 9:16:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:

> then your back to your dilema of how to manage
> all by your lonesome..
>
>
True, I'm not arguing that dilemma, I face it myself. And I look at it like
this.
My children are learning to read, compute, write due to their efforts n
rather than mine, with my help as they request it. I apply that learning
principal to other areas such as what they wear, when they go to sleep, yadda
yadda yadda. So it applies to learning to be neat and clean.
So what do I do? Stop asking, make cleaning look like just another thing that
gets done in the day to day living, rather than the big deal I make it out to
be, encourage them to join in on the "fun" jobs, (windexing, dusting, cooking
or whatever) accept that my priority to clean is not their priority, and do
it myself.
Unfortunately at this stage (as I realized yesterday) I have been slipping
back and forth between trusting them to learn in their own time and way and
getting pissed off and yelling every other week or so about the condition of
the house and trying to make them fell guilty about not helping me. Yesterday
I understood that I was paralleling () learning to unschool. I lay off them
for a while, things start to calm down, I SLACK OFF MY CLEANING and BAM! the
house is a mess *I* am overwhelmed and the kids are getting yelled at. NOT
working.
So what have I decided to do about that? Well, some standards have to relax
first off. Second, I talked to Joe about the situation and told him WHY I
don't want to make the kids help, that then when given the CHOICE to help,
they will choose no, and third, If this is something that is important to me,
I'll treat it as such. LIke a hobby. I've started to reread "The Messies
Manual" and will go back on Fly Lady. I'm going to take baby steps and do
what I WANT to do and not worry about the rest. When I had that attitude
before, that my priorities are mine and not anyone else's, I was HAPPY to do
the cleaning. I enjoyed it, and loved to get up and make a cup of tea from my
clean teakettle, in a mug that was in the cabinet and washed.
Now, I'm not advocating all the above to everyone, some people couldn't care
less! I feel this to be a priority because when MY house is cluttered and
messy and nothing can be found, it (the disorganization and clutter) seems to
worm it's way into my mind. I get disorganized in my thoughts, and if other
conditions are right, It leads to a horrible period of depression. So I need
to take care of myself, And keeping my house clean myself, rather than
waiting for others to pitch in, is one very important way for me to take care
of myself.
Whew, so many words for 7:15 am!
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
Unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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