What do you say to nay-sayers?
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
Thanks for all your thoughts on rebellion. Today on another
board, someone spoke of the unschoolers she knows as being
poorly dressed, unhealthy emotionally, unprepared for life and
the homes of these families as being chaotic and dirty. I
remember in LLL occasionally running into families who took the
views of demand feeding so seriously that they completely
neglected hygiene, housework and ordinary routines for children
(kids sleeping in clothes, brushing their teeth only when they felt
like it and so on).
The unschoolers I've known haven't been like that. But I have
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).
Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?
Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). Have you found that your kids generate enough
self-motivation to achieve their goals? Do you urge completion of
projects? Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching or
pushing) when the child has expressed interest in a certain
area?
I'm inclined at this point to offer support more than a push but I
have friends who disagree with this ideology and I thought I'd
find out your experiences and what you think about it.
Julie B
board, someone spoke of the unschoolers she knows as being
poorly dressed, unhealthy emotionally, unprepared for life and
the homes of these families as being chaotic and dirty. I
remember in LLL occasionally running into families who took the
views of demand feeding so seriously that they completely
neglected hygiene, housework and ordinary routines for children
(kids sleeping in clothes, brushing their teeth only when they felt
like it and so on).
The unschoolers I've known haven't been like that. But I have
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).
Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?
Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). Have you found that your kids generate enough
self-motivation to achieve their goals? Do you urge completion of
projects? Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching or
pushing) when the child has expressed interest in a certain
area?
I'm inclined at this point to offer support more than a push but I
have friends who disagree with this ideology and I thought I'd
find out your experiences and what you think about it.
Julie B
Have a Nice Day!
Wellllll Here is my experience.
Regarding hygiene, my kids are all big into showers, sometimes 2x day. My oldest two brush their teeth, though there was a time when my oldest wasn't interested. We still haven't gotten braces for him because I don't feel he takes good enough care of his teeth. (and there are other reasons, like his teeth are straight and his bite has been corrected so a retainer will hold his teeth in position till he can get his own braces..when *he* wants). But he *is* getting better at it. He's decided its easiest to brugh his teeth when he's in the shower, so his toothbrush is hanging in there now.
My youngest needs reminded continually to brush her teeth. She does have cavities and has had fillings, etc. I *want* to remember to check on her, but my own schedule is somewhat chaotic and so I often forget. Thats one of my New Year's resolutions :o).
My house is not usually "dirty", but it does get very cluttered. Over the holidays it was an absolute MESS. I truly just did not have the time to clean it. Most of the time though I try to keep things swept up, wiped down, and the bathroom clean. I do laundry usually once/week and the dishes get done every day.
We live in a small house and there are 5 of us (PLUS all the friends that hang out here along with the winter slop, ashes from the woodstove, etc), so its a constant battle. If I'm down for even one day, or had to work the weekend, it means starting all over behind the 8-ball when I am able to get back to it. And sometimes I get so overwhelmed by it all that I don't even want to get out of bed. It makes it hard for me to funciton. For my own personal peace of mind, I do need to keep after it but I don't require my kids to help anymore. I do ask them to help out sometimes but its voluntary.
My oldest daughter does her own laundery now because she is tired of not having her favorite stuff to wear. She is also an expert at vaccuuming.
My youngest is an expert at cleaning the bathroom and dusting.
My oldest is adept at cooking. But he's not so great about cleaning up after himself :o). He will when he is on his own thought, I'm sure of that. He already has gone from having the messiest room in the house to having almost the most organized.
All in all, I would say my kids are very prepared to live on their own in the home-ec sense of things.
My youngest does sleep in her clothes quite often. I don't much care. As long as her clothes are clean and she is clean that is fine by me. Most of the time she is just too engaged in whatever she is doing to be bothered with worrying about her clothes (unless we are going out somewhere).
Should we push our kids?
Well, I *did* do that and it was the worst thing I ever did. I *do* strongly encourage sometimes, but usually only when their decisions affect someone other than themselves.
For example, they are on the swim team and talk about quitting. But my son's age group only has 4 boys so if he quits they will no longer be able to have a relay team (and their relay team is doing pretty well). In that case, the other boys are counting on him, so I've asked him to finish the season...and then if he doens't want to swim after that, thats fine. I don't get too hung up on the practices anymore though, but I strongly encourage them to go at least 3 times/week.
Hope that helps!
Kristen
Regarding hygiene, my kids are all big into showers, sometimes 2x day. My oldest two brush their teeth, though there was a time when my oldest wasn't interested. We still haven't gotten braces for him because I don't feel he takes good enough care of his teeth. (and there are other reasons, like his teeth are straight and his bite has been corrected so a retainer will hold his teeth in position till he can get his own braces..when *he* wants). But he *is* getting better at it. He's decided its easiest to brugh his teeth when he's in the shower, so his toothbrush is hanging in there now.
My youngest needs reminded continually to brush her teeth. She does have cavities and has had fillings, etc. I *want* to remember to check on her, but my own schedule is somewhat chaotic and so I often forget. Thats one of my New Year's resolutions :o).
My house is not usually "dirty", but it does get very cluttered. Over the holidays it was an absolute MESS. I truly just did not have the time to clean it. Most of the time though I try to keep things swept up, wiped down, and the bathroom clean. I do laundry usually once/week and the dishes get done every day.
We live in a small house and there are 5 of us (PLUS all the friends that hang out here along with the winter slop, ashes from the woodstove, etc), so its a constant battle. If I'm down for even one day, or had to work the weekend, it means starting all over behind the 8-ball when I am able to get back to it. And sometimes I get so overwhelmed by it all that I don't even want to get out of bed. It makes it hard for me to funciton. For my own personal peace of mind, I do need to keep after it but I don't require my kids to help anymore. I do ask them to help out sometimes but its voluntary.
My oldest daughter does her own laundery now because she is tired of not having her favorite stuff to wear. She is also an expert at vaccuuming.
My youngest is an expert at cleaning the bathroom and dusting.
My oldest is adept at cooking. But he's not so great about cleaning up after himself :o). He will when he is on his own thought, I'm sure of that. He already has gone from having the messiest room in the house to having almost the most organized.
All in all, I would say my kids are very prepared to live on their own in the home-ec sense of things.
My youngest does sleep in her clothes quite often. I don't much care. As long as her clothes are clean and she is clean that is fine by me. Most of the time she is just too engaged in whatever she is doing to be bothered with worrying about her clothes (unless we are going out somewhere).
Should we push our kids?
Well, I *did* do that and it was the worst thing I ever did. I *do* strongly encourage sometimes, but usually only when their decisions affect someone other than themselves.
For example, they are on the swim team and talk about quitting. But my son's age group only has 4 boys so if he quits they will no longer be able to have a relay team (and their relay team is doing pretty well). In that case, the other boys are counting on him, so I've asked him to finish the season...and then if he doens't want to swim after that, thats fine. I don't get too hung up on the practices anymore though, but I strongly encourage them to go at least 3 times/week.
Hope that helps!
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Julie Bogart <julie@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:57 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] What do you say to nay-sayers?
Thanks for all your thoughts on rebellion. Today on another
board, someone spoke of the unschoolers she knows as being
poorly dressed, unhealthy emotionally, unprepared for life and
the homes of these families as being chaotic and dirty. I
remember in LLL occasionally running into families who took the
views of demand feeding so seriously that they completely
neglected hygiene, housework and ordinary routines for children
(kids sleeping in clothes, brushing their teeth only when they felt
like it and so on).
The unschoolers I've known haven't been like that. But I have
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).
Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?
Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). Have you found that your kids generate enough
self-motivation to achieve their goals? Do you urge completion of
projects? Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching or
pushing) when the child has expressed interest in a certain
area?
I'm inclined at this point to offer support more than a push but I
have friends who disagree with this ideology and I thought I'd
find out your experiences and what you think about it.
Julie B
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Colonel Newton
The unschoolers I've known haven't been like that. But I have
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).
Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?
--------------
But you know what, Julie? There are families like this of EVERY type. I have about 6 formerly home schooled kids in my class this year, one of whom was unschooled, and two of whom (I believe) were neglected-- hygienically, physically, etc. I don't think it was the *home schooling* that was related to the parents being neglectful of basic cleanliness/ doctor's visits (or, if not a dr., some attention to things like illnesses, having physical deformities, etc.)/ personal care issues... because the parents are STILL neglectful of these things now. And I have other parents whose kids have always been in PS who are living similarly.
To me, there are as many flavors of home schoolers as there are flavors of parents in PS. I think that whatever the group, it's ALWAYS false to generalize about them. :)
Teresa G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).
Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?
--------------
But you know what, Julie? There are families like this of EVERY type. I have about 6 formerly home schooled kids in my class this year, one of whom was unschooled, and two of whom (I believe) were neglected-- hygienically, physically, etc. I don't think it was the *home schooling* that was related to the parents being neglectful of basic cleanliness/ doctor's visits (or, if not a dr., some attention to things like illnesses, having physical deformities, etc.)/ personal care issues... because the parents are STILL neglectful of these things now. And I have other parents whose kids have always been in PS who are living similarly.
To me, there are as many flavors of home schoolers as there are flavors of parents in PS. I think that whatever the group, it's ALWAYS false to generalize about them. :)
Teresa G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/8/03 4:00:07 PM, julie@... writes:
<< . . . so seriously that they completely
neglected hygiene, housework and ordinary routines for children
(kids sleeping in clothes, brushing their teeth only when they felt
like it and so on). >>
We don't have "ordinary routines," but I don't consider that complete neglect.
Kirby and Marty went through years of only wearing clothes they could sleep
in. Cool little all-cotton sweat suits from After the Stork, so they could
sleep and live in the same kinds of clothes. They didn't wear them for days,
but they didn't change to sleep or wake up.
Holly wears real clothes now to sleep in, but different clothes--leggings and
oversized t-shirts. So if she wakes up and wears those a while, it's not
like being undressed or in pajamas.
I don't make them brush their teeth on a schedule, but they all do it for
real reasons (their mouths don't taste or smell "minty fresh," or they're
going out and it's part of primping, or whatever.
<<But I have
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).>>
If their kids are in school doesn't it look just as dysfunctional?
Would kids from a problematical situation necessarily be better off in school?
<<Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?>>
I say I know lots of unschoolers who aren't that way. And I make solid and
interested eye-contact awaiting their next move. And they never have one.
<<Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). >>
I think everyone knows kids who have killed themselves from overmuch pressure
about something relatively unimportant, like high school football or being a
cheerleader or making all-state something-or-other.
<< Have you found that your kids generate enough self-motivation to achieve
their goals?>>
Their goals so far are to be good friends to their friends, to have fun, to
be helpful, to skate, to build things, to show up where they need to be on
time... Yeah, they have LOTS of self motivation for the things they want to
do.
<<Do you urge completion of projects? >>
Completion of a project someone has lost interest in or which is stressing
them out is one of the worst things to urge. If others are depending on them
to do their part in a group project, yes. That's different. But if they
start to dig a big hole in the yard and decide they're done, or they start
to write a story and decide they'd rather do something else, or they had a
plan to make something and they think they're not ready to do it, no. I
encourage them to stop if they're not having fun.
I encourage everyone else to complete projects later if they've lost interest
too. The person is almost always more important than the project.
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment
<<Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching or
pushing) when the child has expressed interest in a certain
area?>>
Yes. But I would do that for anyone. I've done it for my husband and for my
friends, when they need assistance or reminders or a witness or someone to
check in with them to remind them to take meds or not overeat or to finish a
report or an article or whatever.
Sandra
<< . . . so seriously that they completely
neglected hygiene, housework and ordinary routines for children
(kids sleeping in clothes, brushing their teeth only when they felt
like it and so on). >>
We don't have "ordinary routines," but I don't consider that complete neglect.
Kirby and Marty went through years of only wearing clothes they could sleep
in. Cool little all-cotton sweat suits from After the Stork, so they could
sleep and live in the same kinds of clothes. They didn't wear them for days,
but they didn't change to sleep or wake up.
Holly wears real clothes now to sleep in, but different clothes--leggings and
oversized t-shirts. So if she wakes up and wears those a while, it's not
like being undressed or in pajamas.
I don't make them brush their teeth on a schedule, but they all do it for
real reasons (their mouths don't taste or smell "minty fresh," or they're
going out and it's part of primping, or whatever.
<<But I have
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).>>
If their kids are in school doesn't it look just as dysfunctional?
Would kids from a problematical situation necessarily be better off in school?
<<Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?>>
I say I know lots of unschoolers who aren't that way. And I make solid and
interested eye-contact awaiting their next move. And they never have one.
<<Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). >>
I think everyone knows kids who have killed themselves from overmuch pressure
about something relatively unimportant, like high school football or being a
cheerleader or making all-state something-or-other.
<< Have you found that your kids generate enough self-motivation to achieve
their goals?>>
Their goals so far are to be good friends to their friends, to have fun, to
be helpful, to skate, to build things, to show up where they need to be on
time... Yeah, they have LOTS of self motivation for the things they want to
do.
<<Do you urge completion of projects? >>
Completion of a project someone has lost interest in or which is stressing
them out is one of the worst things to urge. If others are depending on them
to do their part in a group project, yes. That's different. But if they
start to dig a big hole in the yard and decide they're done, or they start
to write a story and decide they'd rather do something else, or they had a
plan to make something and they think they're not ready to do it, no. I
encourage them to stop if they're not having fun.
I encourage everyone else to complete projects later if they've lost interest
too. The person is almost always more important than the project.
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment
<<Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching or
pushing) when the child has expressed interest in a certain
area?>>
Yes. But I would do that for anyone. I've done it for my husband and for my
friends, when they need assistance or reminders or a witness or someone to
check in with them to remind them to take meds or not overeat or to finish a
report or an article or whatever.
Sandra
Betsy
**Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). Have you found that your kids generate enough
self-motivation to achieve their goals?**
Great questions.
I don't know. If anyone pushes my kid he balks like a mule and seems to
be intensely uncomfortable. Not pushing him seems like the only
possible strategy to me.
Gentle nudging has a very low success rate with him. I mostly don't do
that either, but maybe I should do more.
Betsy
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). Have you found that your kids generate enough
self-motivation to achieve their goals?**
Great questions.
I don't know. If anyone pushes my kid he balks like a mule and seems to
be intensely uncomfortable. Not pushing him seems like the only
possible strategy to me.
Gentle nudging has a very low success rate with him. I mostly don't do
that either, but maybe I should do more.
Betsy
Julie Bogart <[email protected]>
<<But I have
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).>>
times, the kids have no escape from chaos and unhealthiness. I
recall one friend (Son was best friends with my son) whose
house was so filthy and unkempt that literally there were never
any clean dishes, nowhere to walk, and laundry strewn up and
down the halls. (Kids would grab shirts from the unending piles
of laundry that littered the halls.)
This boy rarely had friends over because it was so bad. She's
had Child Protective services called on her several times.
I always felt that that boy deserved to go to school--to have a
place of order, a place with some level of control where he could
work on a cleared desk with people who came prepared to be
with him.
My dh grew up in an even worse environment and is so grateful
for school. It was his one escape.
So, yes, that's why I see homeschool combined with
unhealthiness in families as more dangerous.
Julie
known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).>>
>If their kids are in school doesn't it look just as dysfunctional?The reason i think this is worse in homeschooling is that at
>Would kids from a problematical situation necessarily be better
>off in school?
times, the kids have no escape from chaos and unhealthiness. I
recall one friend (Son was best friends with my son) whose
house was so filthy and unkempt that literally there were never
any clean dishes, nowhere to walk, and laundry strewn up and
down the halls. (Kids would grab shirts from the unending piles
of laundry that littered the halls.)
This boy rarely had friends over because it was so bad. She's
had Child Protective services called on her several times.
I always felt that that boy deserved to go to school--to have a
place of order, a place with some level of control where he could
work on a cleared desk with people who came prepared to be
with him.
My dh grew up in an even worse environment and is so grateful
for school. It was his one escape.
So, yes, that's why I see homeschool combined with
unhealthiness in families as more dangerous.
Julie
Mary Bianco
From: Julie Bogart <julie@...>
<<Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?>>
Well I actually haven't heard of this being a stereotype for unschoolers.
But it certainly wouldn't hold water here. My kids are always well put
together. The clothes are new and clean and matched. Something I'm anal
about for my family. You can show up mismatched and I'd be fine with it, but
not for my kids. My kids will actually ask me if what they want to wear
matches so it's never a struggle. I've never had a kid want to wear a
favorite anything until it was falling apart or dirty. (a fate worse than
death!)
I guess it just goes along with how we were with them from a young age. It's
never a struggle here to have them look nice and keep clean. Bath or shower
time has been a ritual every night since birth. Not one of them has ever
balked at doing so. Same with teeth brushing, it's just something we all do.
No fuss or fight, ever.
As far as the house stuff goes, we all work here to keep a tidy house.
Another really anal thing for me. Aside from it being a thing of mine, it's
also necessary for us all here. We have a fairly large house with 6 people
in it, 2 cats, and 2 dogs. It's necessary to pick up. If not, things gets
stepped on and more often than not, not broken but the foot gets hurt. The
baby gets into things she shouldn't, the dogs get things they shouldn't.
Some of it is more of a safety matter than a neat one. But I won't
complain!! Every night, either before or after shower, the playroom gets
cleaned up. Meaning everything gets picked up off of the floor. The counter
can be cluttered and the table and shelves, but the floor has to be
sweepable. I vacuum every day and most days twice. Toys have to be up. No
toys are to be brought in the living room. The dogs eat stuff and not only
is it broken but I have to worry about them choking on it. (they are still
both puppies) Bedrooms can be cluttered and messy as long as I can get in
and to each bed and back out again in the dark. (i.e. path) There comes a
time when the kids clean their rooms again out of necessity, wanting to find
something or to have more room to spread more stuff!!
I go around every day and pick up food. My 2 year old is notorious for
eating on the run. Hubby just found a chicken wing on the floor. I have a
hysterical story of a left on the floor lollipop!! I do the sweeping,
mopping, cleaning etc. My kids help strip their beds mostly because it's fun
and they play tent afterwards. They all put away their own clothes after I
wash them, sometimes I do it myself. I usually get their food and drinks
only because we have some of the house gated off to keep the puppies
contained and it's easier for me to pass through the stuff from the kitchen
to playroom instead of having little ones straddle gates. No big deal.
<<Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). Have you found that your kids generate enough self-motivation to
achieve their goals? Do you urge completion of
projects? Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching or pushing) when
the child has expressed interest in a certain area?>>
I don't think kids do better, or at least my kids do better when pushed. In
fact, they would go the other way. My oldest goes to a private high school,
her choice. She knows she can stay home whenever she wants. She knows she
can quit whenever she wants. She goes to school regularly. Misses when
she's sick. Once in a great while she'll want to take off a day to hang with
me and the kids at the park. Once a year her sister takes her to Orlando for
her birthday and she misses a day or two at the most. She just asked if she
can stay out late this year for her birthday and miss school the next day as
it's on a weekday. The answer was sure, she knew it but asked anyway. That's
how she is. Her grades are better than ever, she works 5 days a week
(sometimes more) and just got above and beyond employee of the month. She
has a bank account she saves for herself and money she manages herself. She
has a wonderful boyfriend and is even talking community college. This all
from a girl who 2 years ago wanted nothing more than to be 21, rich and a
partyer as a living. We went with it and well, look where it got us. Pushing
would have been disasterous.
Two of the 3 younger ones are never pushed to do anything. If they want to
play or try something, we make it so they can. So far, they have finished
what they started as far as organized stuff. We always told them they could
quit if they wanted, they never have. Sometimes they chose not to do it
again, no problem. We are cheerleaders here in whatever they do, but it's
always their choice.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
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<<Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
What do you say to them?>>
Well I actually haven't heard of this being a stereotype for unschoolers.
But it certainly wouldn't hold water here. My kids are always well put
together. The clothes are new and clean and matched. Something I'm anal
about for my family. You can show up mismatched and I'd be fine with it, but
not for my kids. My kids will actually ask me if what they want to wear
matches so it's never a struggle. I've never had a kid want to wear a
favorite anything until it was falling apart or dirty. (a fate worse than
death!)
I guess it just goes along with how we were with them from a young age. It's
never a struggle here to have them look nice and keep clean. Bath or shower
time has been a ritual every night since birth. Not one of them has ever
balked at doing so. Same with teeth brushing, it's just something we all do.
No fuss or fight, ever.
As far as the house stuff goes, we all work here to keep a tidy house.
Another really anal thing for me. Aside from it being a thing of mine, it's
also necessary for us all here. We have a fairly large house with 6 people
in it, 2 cats, and 2 dogs. It's necessary to pick up. If not, things gets
stepped on and more often than not, not broken but the foot gets hurt. The
baby gets into things she shouldn't, the dogs get things they shouldn't.
Some of it is more of a safety matter than a neat one. But I won't
complain!! Every night, either before or after shower, the playroom gets
cleaned up. Meaning everything gets picked up off of the floor. The counter
can be cluttered and the table and shelves, but the floor has to be
sweepable. I vacuum every day and most days twice. Toys have to be up. No
toys are to be brought in the living room. The dogs eat stuff and not only
is it broken but I have to worry about them choking on it. (they are still
both puppies) Bedrooms can be cluttered and messy as long as I can get in
and to each bed and back out again in the dark. (i.e. path) There comes a
time when the kids clean their rooms again out of necessity, wanting to find
something or to have more room to spread more stuff!!
I go around every day and pick up food. My 2 year old is notorious for
eating on the run. Hubby just found a chicken wing on the floor. I have a
hysterical story of a left on the floor lollipop!! I do the sweeping,
mopping, cleaning etc. My kids help strip their beds mostly because it's fun
and they play tent afterwards. They all put away their own clothes after I
wash them, sometimes I do it myself. I usually get their food and drinks
only because we have some of the house gated off to keep the puppies
contained and it's easier for me to pass through the stuff from the kitchen
to playroom instead of having little ones straddle gates. No big deal.
<<Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
director). Have you found that your kids generate enough self-motivation to
achieve their goals? Do you urge completion of
projects? Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching or pushing) when
the child has expressed interest in a certain area?>>
I don't think kids do better, or at least my kids do better when pushed. In
fact, they would go the other way. My oldest goes to a private high school,
her choice. She knows she can stay home whenever she wants. She knows she
can quit whenever she wants. She goes to school regularly. Misses when
she's sick. Once in a great while she'll want to take off a day to hang with
me and the kids at the park. Once a year her sister takes her to Orlando for
her birthday and she misses a day or two at the most. She just asked if she
can stay out late this year for her birthday and miss school the next day as
it's on a weekday. The answer was sure, she knew it but asked anyway. That's
how she is. Her grades are better than ever, she works 5 days a week
(sometimes more) and just got above and beyond employee of the month. She
has a bank account she saves for herself and money she manages herself. She
has a wonderful boyfriend and is even talking community college. This all
from a girl who 2 years ago wanted nothing more than to be 21, rich and a
partyer as a living. We went with it and well, look where it got us. Pushing
would have been disasterous.
Two of the 3 younger ones are never pushed to do anything. If they want to
play or try something, we make it so they can. So far, they have finished
what they started as far as organized stuff. We always told them they could
quit if they wanted, they never have. Sometimes they chose not to do it
again, no problem. We are cheerleaders here in whatever they do, but it's
always their choice.
Mary B
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Tia Leschke
>oldest two brush their teeth, though there was a time when my oldest wasn't
> Regarding hygiene, my kids are all big into showers, sometimes 2x day. My
interested. We still haven't gotten braces for him because I don't feel he
takes good enough care of his teeth. (and there are other reasons, like his
teeth are straight and his bite has been corrected so a retainer will hold
his teeth in position till he can get his own braces..when *he* wants). But
he *is* getting better at it. He's decided its easiest to brugh his teeth
when he's in the shower, so his toothbrush is hanging in there now.
I don't understand. If his teeth are straight, and his bite has been
corrected why would he even need braces? Maybe I'm missing something.
Tia
kayb85 <[email protected]>
We were at the dentist today, and I was in with my 5 year old. She
asked him if he was in kindergarden, and he just looked at her
funny. I told her that we homeschool. She said, "Oh, well he's
still in kindergarten then. School is school, whether it is at
school or home!" Inside I was chuckling, but I didn't want to get
into it. Then she asked what type of curriculum homeschoolers use
for kindergarten. I just told her I don't use any, but that we just
play around with stuff. She said, "Oh, well then, what about first
grade? Do you use a curriculum then?" I told her that some
homeschoolers do, but that I just follow my kids' interests. She
didn't say anything.
When we got home I asked my 9 year old if the dentist had asked her
about homeschooling at all. (I just had that feeling!) She said
yes, that the dentist had asked her about school and she had told her
that she was homeschooled. The dentist asked her what kinds of
things she does at homeschool, and dd told her, "I just do whatever I
want". The dentist laughed and said "Oh, well, that sounds good!"
I think that the conversation she had with my daughter explained all
the questions she asked me about homeschooling! My daughter was seen
right before my son and I were.
But I do wonder sometimes that people like that will think that I'm
totally neglecting my kids. How do you explain to someone like that
what unschooling really is? That it's a totally different lifestyle,
and that it really works. How do you leave the dentist, who is
really just making polite conversation and isn't willing/able to sit
down and discuss educational philosophy, without a bad impression? I
don't think you can, unless you have a few hours to sit and talk with
them about it. And maybe unless they are willing to read through a
few different books that you recommend to them.
Sheila
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
asked him if he was in kindergarden, and he just looked at her
funny. I told her that we homeschool. She said, "Oh, well he's
still in kindergarten then. School is school, whether it is at
school or home!" Inside I was chuckling, but I didn't want to get
into it. Then she asked what type of curriculum homeschoolers use
for kindergarten. I just told her I don't use any, but that we just
play around with stuff. She said, "Oh, well then, what about first
grade? Do you use a curriculum then?" I told her that some
homeschoolers do, but that I just follow my kids' interests. She
didn't say anything.
When we got home I asked my 9 year old if the dentist had asked her
about homeschooling at all. (I just had that feeling!) She said
yes, that the dentist had asked her about school and she had told her
that she was homeschooled. The dentist asked her what kinds of
things she does at homeschool, and dd told her, "I just do whatever I
want". The dentist laughed and said "Oh, well, that sounds good!"
I think that the conversation she had with my daughter explained all
the questions she asked me about homeschooling! My daughter was seen
right before my son and I were.
But I do wonder sometimes that people like that will think that I'm
totally neglecting my kids. How do you explain to someone like that
what unschooling really is? That it's a totally different lifestyle,
and that it really works. How do you leave the dentist, who is
really just making polite conversation and isn't willing/able to sit
down and discuss educational philosophy, without a bad impression? I
don't think you can, unless you have a few hours to sit and talk with
them about it. And maybe unless they are willing to read through a
few different books that you recommend to them.
Sheila
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
> Thanks for all your thoughts on rebellion. Today on another
> board, someone spoke of the unschoolers she knows as being
> poorly dressed, unhealthy emotionally, unprepared for life and
> the homes of these families as being chaotic and dirty. I
> remember in LLL occasionally running into families who took the
> views of demand feeding so seriously that they completely
> neglected hygiene, housework and ordinary routines for children
> (kids sleeping in clothes, brushing their teeth only when they felt
> like it and so on).
>
> The unschoolers I've known haven't been like that. But I have
> known very unhealthy families whose mothers are perennially
> sick or where the family lives from crisis to crisis and
> homeschooling looks dysfunctional at that point (to me).
>
> Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?
> What do you say to them?
>
> Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better when
> pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
> football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
> director). Have you found that your kids generate enough
> self-motivation to achieve their goals? Do you urge completion of
> projects? Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching or
> pushing) when the child has expressed interest in a certain
> area?
>
> I'm inclined at this point to offer support more than a push but I
> have friends who disagree with this ideology and I thought I'd
> find out your experiences and what you think about it.
>
> Julie B
Have a Nice Day!
>>I don't understand. If his teeth are straight, and his bite has beencorrected why would he even need braces? Maybe I'm missing something.<<
I knew someone would ask!! LOL.
My son originally had an overbite where his top jaw grew faster than his lower jaw. HIs bite is corrected because the molars are in the correct position. His teeth are straight but there is still space between the molars and the other teeth so it still appears as if there is an overbite. As long as the bite is corrected, the jaws will continue to grow in proportion to each other.
Without braces the molars will drift back to where they were and he could end up with an overbite again.
The braces are to pull the other teeth closer to the molars to "stabilize the bite" so that both jaws grow proportionally together. Theoretically, with the spaces closed, he would eventually not need a retainer.
Well, I got to thinking about that. It seems to me that with a retainer, he would not need to worry about teeth drifting. AND, when he is done *growing*, it seems to me that even if his teeth drift, he will not develop an overbite. AND most kids who have had braces STILL have to wear a retainer anyway, so what is the point, in *his* case of getting braces?
Needless to say, when I asked if he would have to wear a retainer after braces anyway, he said yes. And when I asked him if a retainer would maintain his bite, he said yes. So, thats what we did. I will have to ask him about what happens when he is done growing.
My goal was only to correct the bite. If we hadn't corrected the bite, and he later wanted to pursue orthodontics, he would have had to have jaw surgery. Now, because his bite is corrected, he has the choice to get braces or not as long as he wears the retainer as prescribed.
The other reason I want him to wait until he is done growing for braces now is because in his case, he can opt for Invisalign as an adult. I'm using Invisalign myself, and you can remove them to eat, brush, and floss. With braces, you have to be careful WHAT you eat, and brushing and flossing are harder.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What do you say to nay-sayers?
>
> Regarding hygiene, my kids are all big into showers, sometimes 2x day. My
oldest two brush their teeth, though there was a time when my oldest wasn't
interested. We still haven't gotten braces for him because I don't feel he
takes good enough care of his teeth. (and there are other reasons, like his
teeth are straight and his bite has been corrected so a retainer will hold
his teeth in position till he can get his own braces..when *he* wants). But
he *is* getting better at it. He's decided its easiest to brugh his teeth
when he's in the shower, so his toothbrush is hanging in there now.
I don't understand. If his teeth are straight, and his bite has been
corrected why would he even need braces? Maybe I'm missing something.
Tia
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/9/03 1:12:20 AM, sheran@... writes:
<< I told her that we homeschool. She said, "Oh, well he's
still in kindergarten then. School is school, whether it is at
school or home!" >>
My brother-in-law (Keith's oldest brother) insists on this kind of banter
with kids.
Once it was "How do you like your teacher?"
"I don't have a teacher."
"Well sure you do. Your mom's your teacher."
Marty just looked at him lamely like sad old Uncle Gerry should really get
onto an actual subject of conversation.
Sandra
<< I told her that we homeschool. She said, "Oh, well he's
still in kindergarten then. School is school, whether it is at
school or home!" >>
My brother-in-law (Keith's oldest brother) insists on this kind of banter
with kids.
Once it was "How do you like your teacher?"
"I don't have a teacher."
"Well sure you do. Your mom's your teacher."
Marty just looked at him lamely like sad old Uncle Gerry should really get
onto an actual subject of conversation.
Sandra
the_clevengers <[email protected]>
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
all walks of life. I certainly knew more than a few when I was in
school. I'm sure homeschoolers aren't immune. But I don't personally
know any unschooling families like that. The unschoolers I know run
the gamut from cluttered to neat-as-a-pin houses, and immaculately
dressed to whatever-works, but none of them are hazardously messy or
neglectful.
the child, not the parent) is looking for. I had a great swimming
coach like that in college. He was one of the most influential people
in my life. But I was looking for, and ready for, the lessons he was
imparting. At another time in my life, I suspect I would've just
regarded him as a major PITA. *Especially* if I was being forced to
work with him, instead of choosing to.
abandoned. Some get shelved and finished later. Since my kids are
young, I'll sometimes remind them of things that they've shelved,
just in case they've forgotten. Sometimes they're eager to work on it
again, sometimes they could care less. I've found that sometimes they
do things I completely wouldn't expect. Like my son (who loves math
worksheets and has begged me to buy them for him) will actually take
them out later when he's learned more math, and self-correct them.
Since he's never seen one corrected, and I've certainly never done
this (or even told him which answers weren't correct in the first
place), I think it's an interesting insight into his feeling that he
wants completion of that particular task. It's also interesting in
that, since we don't have any concept of levels or grades around
here, he's tuned in enough to his own progression to know when he has
learned enough to go back and fix previous mistakes.
BTW, I'm the same way. I've got a folder with about twenty articles
on various subjects that I've been meaning to finish writing. Most
are only one or two paragraphs or an outline, or some random
thoughts. I've never completed one until this week, when I had a
spare hour and I dusted one off and finished it! But, OTOH, once I
started writing my novel, I went straight through to the end, writing
120,000 words in a matter of a couple of months. I don't know why
that was easier for me than finishing a 2,000 word article or two,
but it was. My second novel is currently languishing at the 35,000
word level, but I'm sure I'll finish it sometime later this year.
or mentors when I need them, and when my kids have asked for them
I've done that for them as well.
because their parents pushed them to be there. They hated to swim,
and once they were done, they never wanted to swim again. OTOH, my
parents let me quit the swim team when I was a kid, and quit it again
in high school (I had the same awful coach both times), and when I
swam in college it was because *I* wanted to. I still swim every
week, and I still really love the sport. I compete when and where I
want to, and don't for years at a time, only to return to it again
and again. I think if what you're looking for is short-term glory,
then pushing is the way to go. Certainly, I never made it to the
Olympics with my sporadic swimming approach. But if you're looking
for a lifelong love or enjoyment of a particular discipline, then
letting it be guided by the child's internal drive is the way to go.
Personally, I'd rather have a child who loves to swim, or play music,
or write than one who hates it but does it for the sake of a medal or
trophy.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-
<julie@b...>" <julie@b...> wrote:
> Do you deal with these broad stereotypes about unschooling?I guess I would say that I'm sure there are dysfunctional families in
> What do you say to them?
all walks of life. I certainly knew more than a few when I was in
school. I'm sure homeschoolers aren't immune. But I don't personally
know any unschooling families like that. The unschoolers I know run
the gamut from cluttered to neat-as-a-pin houses, and immaculately
dressed to whatever-works, but none of them are hazardously messy or
neglectful.
> Also, there is a fairly popular philosophy that kids do better whenI think that can be really great, if that's what the person (meaning
> pushed to perform (think of the strict teacher or the intense
> football coach, or the passionate and demanding theater
> director).
the child, not the parent) is looking for. I had a great swimming
coach like that in college. He was one of the most influential people
in my life. But I was looking for, and ready for, the lessons he was
imparting. At another time in my life, I suspect I would've just
regarded him as a major PITA. *Especially* if I was being forced to
work with him, instead of choosing to.
> Have you found that your kids generate enoughDefinitely.
> self-motivation to achieve their goals?
> Do you urge completion ofNo. Some projects around here get completed immediately. Some get
> projects?
abandoned. Some get shelved and finished later. Since my kids are
young, I'll sometimes remind them of things that they've shelved,
just in case they've forgotten. Sometimes they're eager to work on it
again, sometimes they could care less. I've found that sometimes they
do things I completely wouldn't expect. Like my son (who loves math
worksheets and has begged me to buy them for him) will actually take
them out later when he's learned more math, and self-correct them.
Since he's never seen one corrected, and I've certainly never done
this (or even told him which answers weren't correct in the first
place), I think it's an interesting insight into his feeling that he
wants completion of that particular task. It's also interesting in
that, since we don't have any concept of levels or grades around
here, he's tuned in enough to his own progression to know when he has
learned enough to go back and fix previous mistakes.
BTW, I'm the same way. I've got a folder with about twenty articles
on various subjects that I've been meaning to finish writing. Most
are only one or two paragraphs or an outline, or some random
thoughts. I've never completed one until this week, when I had a
spare hour and I dusted one off and finished it! But, OTOH, once I
started writing my novel, I went straight through to the end, writing
120,000 words in a matter of a couple of months. I don't know why
that was easier for me than finishing a 2,000 word article or two,
but it was. My second novel is currently languishing at the 35,000
word level, but I'm sure I'll finish it sometime later this year.
> Do you provide outside motivation (by coaching orYes, and I do so for myself as well. I seek out coaching or teachers
> pushing) when the child has expressed interest in a certain
> area?
or mentors when I need them, and when my kids have asked for them
I've done that for them as well.
> I'm inclined at this point to offer support more than a push but II saw a lot of kids on the swim team in college that were only there
> have friends who disagree with this ideology and I thought I'd
> find out your experiences and what you think about it.
because their parents pushed them to be there. They hated to swim,
and once they were done, they never wanted to swim again. OTOH, my
parents let me quit the swim team when I was a kid, and quit it again
in high school (I had the same awful coach both times), and when I
swam in college it was because *I* wanted to. I still swim every
week, and I still really love the sport. I compete when and where I
want to, and don't for years at a time, only to return to it again
and again. I think if what you're looking for is short-term glory,
then pushing is the way to go. Certainly, I never made it to the
Olympics with my sporadic swimming approach. But if you're looking
for a lifelong love or enjoyment of a particular discipline, then
letting it be guided by the child's internal drive is the way to go.
Personally, I'd rather have a child who loves to swim, or play music,
or write than one who hates it but does it for the sake of a medal or
trophy.
Blue Skies,
-Robin-