[email protected]

Hi All,
I have been on this list for some time now, and have posted on occasion
when I felt I had anything to offer. However, I have never posted an
intro, mostly because I wasn't sure if I was going to stay. In a lot of
ways, this list has been much like a car wreck. You drive by, and even
though you know it will upset you, you look in anyway. You just can't
help yourself. You know you will see pain and bickering, and sometimes
(almost always) a lack of common sense that caused the wreck to begin
with. On the other hand, you see the good Samaritan helping victims,
total strangers trying to make the whole ordeal as painless as possible,
giving advice, soothing wounds, just being there. Well, I will continue
to look in at this list, trying to ignore the bickering, etc. and soak in
the advice, and the good Samaritans' offers of help. Now for the intro:
I'm a 34yo stay at home mom with two girls 3 & 5, and married to
a wonderful husband for 13 years. We had both decided before we had
children that we would school-at-home, and after reading as many books as
I could find on the subject, came across this thing called "unschooling".
Mary Griffith and John Holt made the whole idea very attractive, and it
looked complimentary to our sporadic lifestyle. Now for the confession:
I don't *get it*. After reading these various books I thought I
*got it*. But reading this list has me convinced that I don't. I
understood "unschooling" to be child-led, not child-controlled. I thought
that unschooling was a way to do away with the mainstream's way of
pigeonholing children into a particular set of standards and learning
methods, only to find out that there are the militant unschoolers that
say there is only one way of unschooling. I thought unschooling involved
giving your children all the resources they need to accomplish what they
want, whether it be textbooks, videos, pots and pans, whatever. I guess
my question is, can bits and pieces of mainstream educational methods be
used, if at the leading of the child or the suggestion of the parent, and
this still come under the definition of unschooling? Does "unschooling"
have a standard definition, or is it conditional on what works for any
given family? The intro letter says how it is *not* defined.
< as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis>
What if a child is temporarily unmotivated and wants (and enjoys) some
but not all of his learning to be parent directed? Does this come under
the definition of "unschooling", and can it be discussed on this forum?
I really want to *get it*, but am having trouble because of the mixed
signals on this list lately. I have to admit, the whole idea is very
appealing to me on the outside, but I am skeptical of the outcome. I have
never met or spoken to (to my knowledge anyway) anyone who grew up this
way, and I guess I need some success stories to help encourage me. How
can I be assured that my children will grow up into bright,
compassionate, successful adults? I know it is a control thing, and I
have to get past this aspect, but we only get one chance to do this
right. Like I said, I don't *get it*. Thought I did, really want to, just
don't.

Wende

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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 10:25:54 AM, love-it-here@... writes:

<< I understood "unschooling" to be child-led, not child-controlled. >>

With a lack of any "control" things look very different.
One of the regular put-downs of unschooling involves people saying "I'm not
willing to let my children call the shots," or "My children aren't going to
run the house."

Neither of those describes unschooling as I've seen it work.

<<I thought unschooling involved
giving your children all the resources they need to accomplish what they
want, whether it be textbooks, videos, pots and pans, whatever. >>

And freedom, respect, flexibility, and less tangible things too.

<<can bits and pieces of mainstream educational methods be
used, if at the leading of the child or the suggestion of the parent, and
this still come under the definition of unschooling?>>

If the child is leading that way because he knows it will please the parent
or he has not other experiences to compare the traditional method to, it's
not a choice to unschool or not to, it seems maybe more a choice of formal
school at home or informal (relaxed) homeschooling.

If the parent is suggesting the mainstream method because the parent doesn't
realize the same learning can happen in more natural ways, that's probably
still the parent hoping unschooling will look like school to some extent.

<<What if a child is temporarily unmotivated and wants (and enjoys) some
but not all of his learning to be parent directed? >>

Unmotivated to live his life?
Or unmotivated to do schoolwork?

<<I really want to *get it*, but am having trouble because of the mixed
signals on this list lately. I have to admit, the whole idea is very
appealing to me on the outside, but I am skeptical of the outcome. >>

Mixed signals, as in new or potential unschoolers coming in and arguing
against experienced unschoolers' reports, is unfortunate but happens.

At www.unschooling.com there are lots of stories of older unschoolers.
At sandradodd.com/unschooling there are pages on my individual never-schooled
children.

<<How can I be assured that my children will grow up into bright,
compassionate, successful adults>>

How can you?
Will school help? Money? Counseling?
Which insurance company would be issuing this guarantee you want?

If you plant a tree, how can you be assured that it will grow up into a
strong, big, healthy tree?
The best thing you can do is keep it watered and keep other factors from
tearing it up.

Same with kids.

My children are bright, compassionate and successful people. I have no
reason to think anything will change between now and the time they're adults.
They're 16, 13 and 11, and are trusted and well liked by other children,
families, and adults.

It's possible they would be just the same if they had gone to school. It
will never be proven. I suspect, though, that each would carry some shame
and lack about some physical aspect of themselves (at least) or some subject
area which they didn't get on schedule, or some bullying or teasing they were
just tired to the bone of. They've avoided those things.

I had a little weeping willow tree once. My cats scratched the bark and it
died.

I've guarded to see that my children's bark is intact.

Sandra

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 1/5/03 12:18 PM, love-it-here@... at love-it-here@... wrote:

> I
> understood "unschooling" to be child-led, not child-controlled. I thought
> that unschooling was a way to do away with the mainstream's way of
> pigeonholing children into a particular set of standards and learning
> methods

Unschooling is a way to do away with the pigeon holing. But it's a great
deal more. It's based on the philosophy that children -- people really! --
will learn what they need when they need it. And we have to accept that what
they need may not match what we think they need.

That doesn't cut parents out of the picture. We're there walking along with
them as they explore the world, getting to know them and their world. And
exploring the world ourselves too!

> I thought unschooling involved
> giving your children all the resources they need to accomplish what they
> want, whether it be textbooks, videos, pots and pans, whatever.

Yup. Though saying "helping them find" or "making available" might make it
clearer than "giving".

> I guess
> my question is, can bits and pieces of mainstream educational methods be
> used, if at the leading of the child or the suggestion of the parent, and
> this still come under the definition of unschooling?

Can the child say no thanks? That's often a good test. Another good test
might be to ask if you're treating their use of it the same as you would
their "use" of a comic book. How much of yourself do you have invested in
them using the mainstream educational methods, and using them in the "right"
way?

Another good test is to see if you would be feeling the same way or doing
the same things if it were your husband you were relating to. Would it be
okay if he used a textbook? It sounds kind of ridiculous when said that way!
;-) Would it be okay if you used mainstream educational methods on him?
Again it seems ridiculous. Is that what he'd want you to do to help him?

> Does "unschooling"
> have a standard definition, or is it conditional on what works for any
> given family?

The philosophy is the same for every family. But it will look different for
each family. Which makes it hard to describe! Obviously people want real
examples not just philosophy. But we can't lift examples from one family and
drop them into another family and expect them to work. So discussing the why
is as important as the what.

> What if a child is temporarily unmotivated and wants (and enjoys) some
> but not all of his learning to be parent directed? Does this come under
> the definition of "unschooling", and can it be discussed on this forum?

But what do you mean by unmotivated? Do you mean he doesn't get out of bed
in the morning? Do you mean he watches TV all day? Do you mean he isn't
doing anything that resembles learning in school?

Unlike the standard approaches to learning (and parenting) the what is not
nearly as important as the why. And quite often the what has more to do with
us and our needs for our children than with their needs for themselves.

> I have to admit, the whole idea is very
> appealing to me on the outside, but I am skeptical of the outcome. I have
> never met or spoken to (to my knowledge anyway) anyone who grew up this
> way, and I guess I need some success stories to help encourage me.

The message board might be a good place to read about unschoolers who have
gone on or are getting ready to move on. The stories come out slowly in
response to specific incidents. On the message boards you can read several
years' worth of those stories without waiting the years for them to wander
out.

Peter Kowalki writes in HEM and has a website. (Perhaps someone can post the
address.) He just got married to another unschoolers who has her own
website. (http://www.maeshell.com/ will get you there. I don't know if
that's the address she moved to or moved from.)

Helen, the list owner, has grown children (and she was unschooler herself!)
and she tells us about them when she pops in :-)

There really aren't any guarantees with unschooling. It's not a formula as
school supposedly is that you can run kids through to get to a particular
outcome. It's really helping them grow into who they already are. The goals
are different than standard schooling: to help our kids be who they are and
trust that they will learn what they need.

I think embracing that goal is key to getting unschooling and getting it to
work. If we expect the kids to progress in a particular direction,
unschooling will be frustrating -- and obviously not work! It's not designed
to do that!

Joyce

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

Piggy-backing on Joyce's replies here...


> But what do you mean by unmotivated? Do you mean he
doesn't get out of bed
> in the morning? Do you mean he watches TV all day? Do you
mean he isn't
> doing anything that resembles learning in school?

May I ask you a question Joyce?

The difficulty I see in the picture of unschooling often
characterized in books and websites is that we see the "shining
examples"--kids anyone would be proud to have, building boats
in the basement, cross breeding fish in a creek, designing
computer games from scratch and selling them...

What most of us experience are kids who undulate in their
passions and evident learning. I want to allow them to learn the
way I learn but sometimes lose my confidence. I know that I go in
hot streaks and then take breaks. I tend to focus on one area at a
time, not break my interests into seven neat chunks that get daily
attention. So I have wanted to do that with my children too.

Still, I suppose that what is tough is that kids really do appear to
be wasting time to us. And I do lose my confidence when the
chief interest of a child is to chat all day on the computer with
friends or play James Bond on the X box all day.

Is direction a part of unschooling at all? Any suggestions of how
to spend time taboo?

Do most of you simply rise in the morning and your kids live their
parallel lives around you? When my kids were younger, so much
of what we did we did together and there was a natural
confluence between what they were interested in and how I
could faciliate that. As they've gotten older, that has changed.

In our home, we've always had a read a loud time (for literature
or historical fiction) and do some regularly scheduled activities
that do appear schoolish. (From another unschooling list I was
on, this was considered table time for the basics). We've done
math consistently and language arts based on the Charlotte
Mason approach.

But they do have lots of time to pursue their interests.

I suppose I find myself juding their interests. I look ahead and
think that they ought to be making the most of these teen years
for more than social life or X Box!

Well, there's my bias. But does no one else feel it? I've been
reading this list for two weeks and I guess I'm wondering if no
one goes through dissatisfactions or worries about how their
kids spend their time. Would anyone be willing to discuss this?

>
> There really aren't any guarantees with unschooling. It's not a
formula as
> school supposedly is that you can run kids through to get to a
particular
> outcome. It's really helping them grow into who they already
are. The goals
> are different than standard schooling: to help our kids be who
they are and
> trust that they will learn what they need.

That doesn't sound like a goal to me. That sounds like a
framework. Iow, I would say that a goal would be to help our kids
find a meaningful place in the adult world as responsbile,
competent adults. But I don't know if "trusting that they will learn
what they need" is a goal in the same way. It is a philosophy for
achieving a goal.

And I suppose at this point, I really do want that philosophy to
continue in my family. It has worked so far. But now I am feeling
that anxiety that comes with things not looking how I expected... I
wonder if that is sufficient for that preparation for adulthood.

And I am dealing with their new desires--to go to school, for
instance. Does that fall under the category of "trusting they will
learn what they need"? What if the child is now saying "I think I
need school"? Do I honor that?

Okay. Stopping now. Don't mean to overdo it, but I really do need
to talk about this stuff and am hoping this is the place to do it.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 12:26:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
love-it-here@... writes:

> :
> I don't *get it*. After reading these various books I thought I
> *got it*. But reading this list has me convinced that I don't. I
> understood "unschooling" to be child-led, not child-controlled. I thought
> that unschooling was a way to do away with the mainstream's way of
> pigeonholing children into a particular set of standards and learning
> methods, only to find out that there are the militant unschoolers that
> say there is only one way of unschooling. I thought unschooling involved
> giving your children all the resources they need to accomplish what they
> want, whether it be textbooks, videos, pots and pans, whatever. I guess
> my question is, can bits and pieces of mainstream educational methods be
> used, if at the leading of the child or the suggestion of the parent, and
> this still come under the definition of unschooling? Does "unschooling"
> have a standard definition, or is it conditional on what works for any
> given family?

I just wanted to add my thoughts to what other wonderful unschoolers have
said. For us unschooling is more than "schooling". By that I mean it is
more than your approach to education. It is the way we live. How we treat
our children. For us it means that our children are people already living
and being. ( I hate that question: "what are you going to be when you grow
up?") We treat our children with respect and I believe that they are doing
the best they can all the time. I let them decide how they want to spend
their time each and every day. They are intelligent people and learn what
they need to learn to do what they want to do. I am just a facilitator. I
have more life experience and may have more ideas about where the information
they need is located, someone that can help, books, museums, classes, etc
etc. I may be able to help them locate what it is they are searching for.
And we learn together.
Just some of the thoughts rambling around in my head.
LOL
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 3:31:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:

> We've done
> math consistently and language arts based on the Charlotte
> Mason approach.
>
> But they do have lots of time to pursue their interests

My husband works about 40-48 hours a week. One would think that this leaves
him LOTS of hours to persue his interests. But since he has to spend so many
hours taking care of the company's interests, he gets tired, needs his down
time and doesn't feel excited about too many of *his interests. So they get
put on the back burner.
If I *HAD TO* sit down and do, say an hour, of stuff I wasn't interested in,
I would come home and watch tv after. I would put off scrapbooking because I
had already spent time that day "doing stuff".
If I had to listen to Joe read out loud to me one of his many books on
building your own home, and it wasn't the chapter on choosing your colors but
the one on installing toilets, I would probably not feel like any further
reading when he decided we were done.
I have noticed that when I have to "do stuff I don't initiate or choose",
then I am less likely to do stuff I DO initiate or choose.

*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 1:31:38 PM, julie@... writes:

<< The difficulty I see in the picture of unschooling often
characterized in books and websites is that we see the "shining
examples"--kids anyone would be proud to have, building boats
in the basement, cross breeding fish in a creek, designing
computer games from scratch and selling them...>>

My kids don't do anything like that. But they're happy with the things they
do do.
I think the happiness is better than the measurable "success."

<<What most of us experience are kids who undulate in their
passions and evident learning. I want to allow them to learn the
way I learn but sometimes lose my confidence. I know that I go in
hot streaks and then take breaks.>>

You can't keep them from learning so how can you "allow them to learn"?
Maybe what's undulating is the parental desire to see natural learning.

I think learning happened better here when our focus changed to their mental
health and feelings of contentment.

<<Still, I suppose that what is tough is that kids really do appear to
be wasting time to us. And I do lose my confidence when the
chief interest of a child is to chat all day on the computer with
friends or play James Bond on the X box all day.>>

If you play James Bond with them a while you'll see it's really not easy, and
there are all kinds of strategies and decisions. Schools pay people to write
lesson plans to help children think and strategize. Don't tell your kids
that. But YOU should know that.

"Chatting with friends" is how I learned most of what I've learned in my
whole life.

Is this message board just "chatting with friends"?
Is there any other source in the world where you could learn so much
abchooling, or even get three hours of college credit. THIS IS IT! But it
looks like chatting with friends.

<<Any suggestions of how
to spend time taboo?>>

If your suggestions serve to sort out, for them, what things are "better"
than others ("better" meaning more educational) it's very likely you're wrong
anyway. Instead of trying to change them to do things YOU perceive as
learning moments, spend some energy seeing the learning in all moments.

<<Do most of you simply rise in the morning and your kids live their
parallel lives around you? When my kids were younger, so much
of what we did we did together and there was a natural
confluence between what they were interested in and how I
could faciliate that. >>

Today Kirby needed to go to work at 11:30, and Holly is having friends over
for videotaping, and I've cooked some and cut Holly's hair (she's thrilled
with the haircut, so I'm relieved), talked to a friend with personal trauma,
done some exercises with my husband and some rubber straps the hospital gave
me--his knee is hurting, so he showed me some things for stretching various
tendons and helped me interpret the little chart they gave me for leg
exercises.

Now Keith's off at fighter practice.

Marty just got up at 1:00, and made his own breakfast and went to play a
newish video game he has.

People will start showing back up here over the course of the afternoon.
Keith goes back to work tomorrow for the first time since about December 10.
Long, good vacation, just being home. I think Kirby and I are watching DVDs
tonight together, so we can send some back to Netflix. Holly and I made a
list of things to rent at Hollywood video, and most will only be on tape. I
was supposed to go with Keith to Costco, but with Holly's friends being here,
I probably won't get to.

It's a typical day. The determining factors are people's personal checklists
and time schedules.

Sandra

Helen Hegener

At 12:18 PM -0500 1/5/03, love-it-here@... wrote:
>In a lot of
>ways, this list has been much like a car wreck.

I've been vexed by this list from time to time, and have often wished
the incessant arguers would just grow up and quit the niddly "you
said I said but I didn't say that" bs. I'm probably going to catch
some flack for this post, but c'est la vie. Damn the torpedoes...

> I don't *get it*. After reading these various books I thought I
>*got it*. But reading this list has me convinced that I don't. I
>understood "unschooling" to be child-led, not child-controlled. I thought
>that unschooling was a way to do away with the mainstream's way of
>pigeonholing children into a particular set of standards and learning
>methods, only to find out that there are the militant unschoolers that
>say there is only one way of unschooling.

Ignore them. I do.

Maybe I shouldn't.

> I thought unschooling involved
>giving your children all the resources they need to accomplish what they
>want, whether it be textbooks, videos, pots and pans, whatever. I guess
>my question is, can bits and pieces of mainstream educational methods be
>used, if at the leading of the child or the suggestion of the parent, and
>this still come under the definition of unschooling?

When our electrician kid decided he wanted to learn to drive
18-wheelers and enrolled himself in a trucking school to learn the
ropes was he no longer an unschooler? Better not try to tell him that.

> Does "unschooling"
>have a standard definition, or is it conditional on what works for any
>given family? The intro letter says how it is *not* defined.

I think everyone has to find their own comfort zone with the word.
Does "love" have a standard definition or is it conditional on what
works for any given person?

>< as the free learning kids do outside of parent-directed
>learning, nor is it done on a part-time basis>
>What if a child is temporarily unmotivated and wants (and enjoys) some
>but not all of his learning to be parent directed? Does this come under
>the definition of "unschooling", and can it be discussed on this forum?

I think this is the best of all places to discuss it, but be aware
that the concept makes some people here upset. That said, I'll broach
the topic: When our oldest son was little he always wanted more
direction and interaction than any of the other kids. He'd ask me to
buy workbooks because he just loved filling in the blanks -
especially math-related books - was he unschooling? Was I
"sabotaging" his unschooling by buying him the silly workbooks? His
Christmas wish list included what I considered pretty structured
computer learning programs - was he unschooling when he played them?
In the years since he's the one who's been in charge of building
steel frame commercial buildings, actually changing the blueprints
when necessary - it seems like that has taken a certain headset for
figures and calculations that I can now see he has been cultivating
since he was old enough to hold a pencil. Was he unschooling?

>I really want to *get it*, but am having trouble because of the mixed
>signals on this list lately. I have to admit, the whole idea is very
>appealing to me on the outside, but I am skeptical of the outcome. I have
>never met or spoken to (to my knowledge anyway) anyone who grew up this
>way, and I guess I need some success stories to help encourage me. How
>can I be assured that my children will grow up into bright,
>compassionate, successful adults?

Trust is my favorite five-letter word. My favorite John Holt quote is
something about trusting ourselves, which is difficult to do because
in school we were taught that we couldn't be trusted...

> I know it is a control thing, and I
>have to get past this aspect, but we only get one chance to do this
>right. Like I said, I don't *get it*. Thought I did, really want to, just
>don't.

Keep reading, Wende. I recommend checking out the Unschooling.com
website for some excellent resources on the whole concept, mostly
drawn from Home Education Magazine, which our family publishes. Some
of the best stuff ever written on unschooling is at that site, and
we're working to make it even better in the coming weeks and months.

Helen

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected],
Earthmomma67@a... wrote:

> If I *HAD TO* sit down and do, say an hour, of stuff I wasn't
interested in,
> I would come home and watch tv after. I would put off
scrapbooking because I
> had already spent time that day "doing stuff".

Okay, I get this.

> If I had to listen to Joe read out loud to me one of his many
books on
> building your own home, and it wasn't the chapter on choosing
your colors but
> the one on installing toilets, I would probably not feel like any
further
> reading when he decided we were done.

Are you saying, then, that you don't pursue any of your own
interests because you have the responsiblities to run the home
and look after children? Is childhood the only season that affords
total indulgence of interests versus balancing responsibilities
and passions?

I find that I can do both. Are children different than us in that way?

I think I get the main point (not expecting kids to be excited and
able to engage when they've spent draining time on subject
matter that doesn't interest them), but I wonder how we are
preparing them for adulthood then if the life they will have
includes balancing both obligations and personal
interests/outlets.

Julie

Betsy

** I guess
my question is, can bits and pieces of mainstream educational methods be
used, if at the leading of the child or the suggestion of the parent, and
this still come under the definition of unschooling?**


I would say "Yes, if your child doesn't mind" or "yes, if your child
values those methods".

To me "child-led" can mean "parent-inspired" but it can't mean "parent-imposed".

(However, I have made my child brush his teeth.)

There is a big spectrum between strictly following a curriculum and
complete unschooling. Just because a person tossed their curriculum out
the window doesn't make them an unschooler. They may be at one of the
points in between.

If complete unschooling doesn't appeal to you, there's also "relaxed
homeschooling" and "eclectic homeschooling". (Or you can make up your
own new name.) Even though I unschool, in real life most of the people
in my support group are "relaxed" or "eclectic".

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 3:31:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:

> Well, there's my bias. But does no one else feel it? I've been
> reading this list for two weeks and I guess I'm wondering if no
> one goes through dissatisfactions or worries about how their
> kids spend their time. Would anyone be willing to discuss this?
>
>
I may feel it, but I know now that that is residual insecurities based on a
falsehood. The falsehood is that children need to be guided to learn certain
things in life that are deemed important by somone other than the child.
But before I came to this understanding, before I could see the falsehoood
for what it was, I had to take away the school. Completely. I had to take a
leap of faith.
In myself, in my parenting mentors, in the books I've read, and most
importantly, in my children.
I had to step back and let them BE. For a long time.
It took at least a year of trust to see that there is no stopping natural
learning, in all forms, academic, social, physical.
Immerse yourself in Unschooling Philosophy, read on line and off. Get rid of
(at least box up and put into a closet) anything that reminds you of that
falsehood.
Get out and play with your kids. Teenagers still play, you know! Stop reading
homeschooling mags,a nd read unschooling ones. Throw out the curriculum
catalogs and visit the Discovery Channel Store. Go for walks and looks for
animal skulls or Owl Pellets to examine.
PLay and Learn. They go together and when the two are not interfered with,
can't be torn apart.
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected],
SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> My kids don't do anything like that. But they're happy with the
things they
> do do.
> I think the happiness is better than the measurable "success."

Agreed.

>
> You can't keep them from learning so how can you "allow them
to learn"?
> Maybe what's undulating is the parental desire to see natural
learning.

Touche! You're right.

>
> If you play James Bond with them a while you'll see it's really
not easy, and
> there are all kinds of strategies and decisions. Schools pay
people to write
> lesson plans to help children think and strategize. Don't tell
your kids
> that. But YOU should know that.

Okay. I have played their games on the computer and know they
are challenging. I suppose I have split feelings about the
violence and the point of those skills. So my maternal bias is
interfering. I did concede to the purchase of the X box just for
those reasons, but I guess it's clear I haven't bought in fully. I am
still ambivalent.
>
> "Chatting with friends" is how I learned most of what I've
learned in my
> whole life.
>
> Is this message board just "chatting with friends"?
> Is there any other source in the world where you could learn so
much
> abchooling, or even get three hours of college credit. THIS IS
IT! But it
> looks like chatting with friends.

Wow. Nailed! I totally agree. In fact, I do spend a ton of time on
the Internet for that very reason.

My dd (13) has benefitted tremendously from time on the Internet
with friends. I've been impressed by her array of friends
internationally and what she's learned about life through their
experiences. Okay... I think I'm getting it. Perhaps I have devalued
what is done by the young compared to what I do as an adult.
Blech.

Geesh. It's tough to grow. :)
>
> <<Any suggestions of how
> to spend time taboo?>>
>
> If your suggestions serve to sort out, for them, what things are
"better"
> than others ("better" meaning more educational) it's very likely
you're wrong
> anyway. Instead of trying to change them to do things YOU
perceive as
> learning moments, spend some energy seeing the learning in
all moments.

Okay. Okay. I will tape this quote to my refrigerator. :)

>
> It's a typical day. The determining factors are people's
personal checklists
> and time schedules.
>
> Sandra

Thank you! I really do appreciate reading your entire day.

Your post was very helpful.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 1:31:38 PM, julie@... writes:

<< he goals
> are different than standard schooling: to help our kids be who
they are and
> trust that they will learn what they need.

<<That doesn't sound like a goal to me. That sounds like a
framework. >>

I think it's a GREAT goal!

It give the parents something they CAN do.

If a parent thinks "I am going to see that my child is an olympic swimmer,"
the odds of parental success are very small.

I used that example because years ago one of the people writing about
unschooling had friends whose kids were really structured. Here's how
structured: There was a long chart like a timeline on the wall of one of the
kids rooms. At the end was "olympic gold medalist" and it worked back to the
present with all kinds of goals and measures and all their lives were
focussed on that.

What are the odds that person grew up to be a failure?
And if the goal hadn't been "gold medal," then the odds of success would have
been better.
And if the goal had been "olympic try-outs, still success would be more
attainable.

But if the goal had been "enjoys swimming, gets classes and coaching and has
opportunities to compete" all of a sudden EVERYBODY could have been
successful. Every class teacher, coach and meet would have been a successful
completion instead of a potentially weak link in a chain stretching beyond
anyone's sight.

<<Iow, I would say that a goal would be to help our kids
find a meaningful place in the adult world as responsbile,
competent adults. But I don't know if "trusting that they will learn
what they need" is a goal in the same way.>>

Trusting them is helping them.

<<What if the child is now saying "I think I
need school"? Do I honor that?>>

First, I would try to see what is lacking at home that makes school seem
better than being home.

And WHY do they want to go? Are they afraid it's the only way to "reach a
goal" for themselves of their parents?


Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 1:52:31 PM, julie@... writes:

<< I think I get the main point (not expecting kids to be excited and
able to engage when they've spent draining time on subject
matter that doesn't interest them), but I wonder how we are
preparing them for adulthood then if the life they will have
includes balancing both obligations and personal
interests/outlets. >>

If you give kids choices all along and treat them as people, then the whole
thing is a continuum and they start making those balancing decisions when
they're six, or eight, or ten (all along, but they increase in weight).

MAYBE the idea that has you stuck is "preparing for adulthood."

My kids aren't "preparing for adulthood." They're living life, just as
legitimately as any adult is. They make real decisions involving time,
money, laundry, being prepared for deadlines (even if it's as small as being
ready for friends to take them to the movies, it's real), people's feelings,
their own health, all the time.

If they're aware of and facile with such decisions when they're younger,
there will be no "becoming an adult" when someone else stops making their
decisions and they start making their own decisions. Turning 18 or 21 will
be just as smooth and non-remarkable as turning 12 or going from one evening
to any other morning NOT their birthday.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 3:52:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:

> >If I had to listen to Joe read out loud to me one of his many
> books on
> >building your own home, and it wasn't the chapter on choosing
> your colors but
> >the one on installing toilets, I would probably not feel like any
> further
> >reading when he decided we were done.
>
> Are you saying, then, that you don't pursue any of your own
> interests because you have the responsiblities to run the home
> and look after children? Is childhood the only season that affords
> total indulgence of interests versus balancing responsibilities
> and passions?
>
>
Of course not! Those responsibilities are my choice. I could have chosen to
be a childless young woman with a wealthy benefactor who has tons of time to
paint! Homemaking is my choice so I do it. If I had married a man who told me
that I must quit my job and homeschool my children, I would probably do just
what he wanted and no more since It was not my choice in the first place. I
no longer do things in my life that are not my choice. Sometimes there are
steps to a coice that are boring or downright unpleasant (such as cleaning
the catbox) but they are steps toward the choice I did make (having sweet,
beautiful cats that sit on my lap and purr).
Anyhoo, The point I was trying to make in the quoted text above, was that If
I had to do what my husband (or mother or best friend or neighbor) wanted me
to do, I would have less energy left over to do the things *I* want to do. If
my kids had to do what *I* wanted them to do, if they had to study stuff that
*I* felt was important, but to them was boring, inane, unrelated to anything
in their life, they would have that much less energy to persue an interest
that they may have.
It sounds as if they haven't really had a chance to unschool joyfully and
trustingly. If you are working toward joyfull unschooling, start by trusting
that what they ARE doing is good and right and important to THEM. Because
THEY are the ones who will be taking that knowledge with them for the rest of
their life's journey.
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 2:01:10 PM, julie@... writes:

<< Okay. I have played their games on the computer and know they
are challenging. I suppose I have split feelings about the
violence and the point of those skills. So my maternal bias is
interfering. I did concede to the purchase of the X box just for
those reasons, but I guess it's clear I haven't bought in fully. I am
still ambivalent. >>


Maybe something here will help. Maybe EVERYTHING here will help:

http://sandradodd.com/games/page


I would NOT tape that to the refrigerator. Maybe carry it around in your
pocket a while, but I would take steps not to have ANY visible or audible
divisions of educational vs. non-educational. Also it suggests you could be
wrong, and while it might be true in that little instance, why tape THAT to
your refrigerator?

If you go to www.unschooling.com and search for AnneO or Zenmomma stuff,
you'll find LOTS of things worthy of refrigerator doors, and really uplifting
stuff about how RIGHT you are!!!

(that was about the following:

( If your suggestions serve to sort out, for them, what things are
"better"
> than others ("better" meaning more educational) it's very likely
you're wrong
> anyway. Instead of trying to change them to do things YOU
perceive as
> learning moments, spend some energy seeing the learning in
all moments.

(Okay. Okay. I will tape this quote to my refrigerator. :)

<<Thank you! I really do appreciate reading your entire day.
<<Your post was very helpful.>>

Cool! You're welcome.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 4:01:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
julie@... writes:

> Perhaps I have devalued
> what is done by the young compared to what I do as an adult.
> Blech.
>
>
Guilty here too!
Unfortunately, this is the message that we have all grown up with and
internalized. That kids' actions are less valid than an adults'.
It's hard to get rid of with out a lot of work.
*~*Elissa Jill*~*
unschooling Momma to 3 beautiful brilliant people
Loving partner for life to Joey
terrible guitarist, fair singer and happy woman.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 2:20:17 PM, Earthmomma67@... writes:

<< Sometimes there are
steps to a coice that are boring or downright unpleasant (such as cleaning
the catbox) but they are steps toward the choice I did make (having sweet,
beautiful cats that sit on my lap and purr). >>

Wow.
I clean mine so the cat doesn't crap in the corner!

Your life is way better than mine.

My cats sit in my face and purr when it's nearly time to feed them, though!

We've been using disposable cat boxes--the trays the canned cat food comes
in. Input and output in the same box! When it's too yucky to keep using I
take out the last of the solid output and pour the rest on the driveway to
absorb the automotive output from the leaking VW.

Someone's job is to dance on that kitty litter to take oil off. Not MY job
lately, but will be again someday. Whoever's out there talking to Keith or
throwing a frisbee for the dog will scoot around on the kitty litter and when
the oil spot is better Keith sweeps up and throws it away.

That's just about like every other thing in our lives. One thing leads to
another, and nothing is entirely any one person's responsibility.

Our two female cats go outside and do their bizness but the male wants a
private corner toilet of his own inside.

<<he point I was trying to make in the quoted text above, was that If
I had to do what my husband (or mother or best friend or neighbor) wanted me
to do, I would have less energy left over to do the things *I* want to do. >>

And it also would divide the world into what you did want to do and what you
did NOT want to do. I WANT to do the dishes, when I can't find a bowl, or
when I need counterspace to make bread. If I did the dishes on a schedule,
7:00 every evening, I would never "want" to do the dishes.

I WANT to do the laundry when my favorite sweatshirt is unavailable!

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 1/5/03 3:30 PM, Julie Bogart <julie@...> at
julie@... wrote:

> The difficulty I see in the picture of unschooling often
> characterized in books and websites is that we see the "shining
> examples"--kids anyone would be proud to have, building boats
> in the basement, cross breeding fish in a creek, designing
> computer games from scratch and selling them...

Oh, absolutely! For one thing, it's not particularly interesting to describe
days of a child watching TV for 3 weeks straight ;-) But, yes, it is
comforting to hear about kids doing things that, well, don't make good
reading for troublesome inlaws ;-)

One thing that helps is to come here and tell everyone what you're kids are
doing and that it's bothering you. And people can sympathize and tell you
their kids did exactly that and how it came out for them. They can perhaps
help you see the situation in a way that you hadn't. Perhaps people can help
you see that you aren't involved enough, or not offering them better things
to do, or that looking for what they aren't learning is blinding you to what
they are learning. It's going to depend on the situation, but usually a
variety of good stuff comes out of someone asking for support/help with
something that's bothering them. (Not to imply that it's easy to put
yourself out there!)

> Still, I suppose that what is tough is that kids really do appear to
> be wasting time to us.

Yes. Sometimes it helps to join them! Sometimes it helps to come here and
get some perspective.

> Is direction a part of unschooling at all? Any suggestions of how
> to spend time taboo?

Would you want your husband to do to you what you'd like to do for your
kids?

Would you want your husband to see you reading a trashy novel and have him
tell you there were better ways to spend your time? Would you want to get
that feeling as you sat down that if he saw you reading a trashy novel that
you knew he'd make "helpful" suggestions on "fun" things you could be doing?

It's helpful to divorce the need to suggest from the judgement of how
they're using their time. Suggest things because the kids might like them
not because you feel it's better than what they're doing. (Again, this isn't
meant to suggest anyone can just turn off the feelings and do unschooling
"right".)

> Do most of you simply rise in the morning and your kids live their
> parallel lives around you? When my kids were younger, so much
> of what we did we did together and there was a natural
> confluence between what they were interested in and how I
> could faciliate that. As they've gotten older, that has changed.

For us it has changed back and forth. There for a while my daughter (11yo)
was getting up to watch TV all day. It must have lasted for 2 or 3 months.
(Or it felt that way!) Now she wants to do things with me. Or she works on
projects on her own. I only have one child so the dynamics are a lot
different.

But it should feel like a family living together, not separate people
sharing the same roof. The parents aren't there just to provide access to
the world. We're all part of a family.

I guess I'm talking about connections and staying connected and being
responsive to their needs. And getting in there and mixing things up,
perhaps, if things are feeling to routine. Or letting things be if it feels
comfortably homey.

I think that's something that comes out better inadvertently when people
describe how their lives work.

> In our home, we've always had a read a loud time (for literature
> or historical fiction) and do some regularly scheduled activities
> that do appear schoolish. (From another unschooling list I was
> on, this was considered table time for the basics). We've done
> math consistently and language arts based on the Charlotte
> Mason approach.
>
> But they do have lots of time to pursue their interests.

And unschoolers here suggest nothing but interests and things that might
interest them.

> I suppose I find myself juding their interests. I look ahead and
> think that they ought to be making the most of these teen years
> for more than social life or X Box!

Some of it's jealousy! I mean what adult *wouldn't* want to be able to spend
all day doing whatever they want and not having to make decisions and stop
to tend to the needs of others? :-)

Part is natural worry. Reading helps. Being aware of the connections you're
helping them make with the world helps.

> Well, there's my bias. But does no one else feel it? I've been
> reading this list for two weeks and I guess I'm wondering if no
> one goes through dissatisfactions or worries about how their
> kids spend their time. Would anyone be willing to discuss this?

Yes lots of people feel that. I think it doesn't appear that they do because
they act as though they don't.

It's not so much a matter of not feeling that way or stopping from feeling
that way as what to do when you do feel that way. Some people are really
sold on the benefits of unschooling and just push on past the feelings,
knowing that what they're gaining is better than what the feelings are
trying to pull them back to. Or some people come here and talk about it. :-)

> That doesn't sound like a goal to me.

Nope, that's the goal: helping them be who they are. Everything else is a
side effect. A *good* side effect :-)

So, who are you kids? (That's a rhetorical question but you can tell us if
it would help you figure it out. :-)

> And I am dealing with their new desires--to go to school, for
> instance. Does that fall under the category of "trusting they will
> learn what they need"? What if the child is now saying "I think I
> need school"? Do I honor that?

Why do they want to go? What do they think school can accomplish that they
can't get out of school?

My daughter wanted to go to kindergarten. It turns out she wanted to ride
the Big Wheels like she did in preschool. She recently asked for a math
tutor and I pointed out all the programs and made some suggestions on how
she could get the same effect. She hasn't taken any up, yet, but she's more
aware of them now. And she *really* didn't want a tutor. She hates classes
where the teacher tells the kids how to do things the "right way" and makes
them demonstrate that they got it!

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 1/5/03 3:51 PM, Julie Bogart <julie@...> at
julie@... wrote:

> but I wonder how we are
> preparing them for adulthood then

How did you prepare your newborn to be a toddler? How did you prepare your
toddler to be a 6 yo?

They learn what they need now. The nows just naturally keep coming along and
the kids end up where they are today already knowing what they needed last
year and acquiring what they need for today.

> if the life they will have
> includes balancing both obligations and personal
> interests/outlets.

Do they have no obligations now? Do they never meet friends at a particular
time? Borrow a game and return it? Get up on time for something they want to
do?

I think what adults worry about is that how kids who've been given freedom
will handle doing things they dislike. But don't we want something better
than to prepare them to do boring things? Don't we want them to figure out
how to spend their lives doing what they enjoy?

And are there things you do because you're obligated, or because you want to
avoid the consequences of not doing them?

Joyce

Helen Hegener

At 2:42 PM -0500 1/5/03, Fetteroll wrote:
>Peter Kowalki writes in HEM and has a website. (Perhaps someone can post the
>address.)

http://www.peterkowalke.com

His audio clip "Hi! Thanks for visiting!" always startles me. <g>

He's not writing for HEM any longer, but we have a lot of his columns
at the HEM site:
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com

I think he has a lot more at his site though, along with some other cool stuff.

Another really cool site for grown homeschoolers is
http://www.apricotpie.com

The site's founder, Ben Kniaz, writes beautifully; we featured one of
his articles, "Homeschooling Vibrato" in our Sept/Oct issue.

Helen

Helen Hegener

At 8:30 PM +0000 1/5/03, Julie Bogart <julie@...> wrote:
>Still, I suppose that what is tough is that kids really do appear to
>be wasting time to us. And I do lose my confidence when the
>chief interest of a child is to chat all day on the computer with
>friends or play James Bond on the X box all day.

Hoo boy. Just as I was thinking I should get off this computer and go
do something else today. I see several replies to this question
(these questions), so maybe I'll just read a while...

>I suppose I find myself juding their interests. I look ahead and
>think that they ought to be making the most of these teen years
>for more than social life or X Box!
>
>Well, there's my bias. But does no one else feel it? I've been
>reading this list for two weeks and I guess I'm wondering if no
>one goes through dissatisfactions or worries about how their
>kids spend their time. Would anyone be willing to discuss this?

You betcha, I'd love to discuss this. I still worry about my kids,
even though I *KNOW* they're all doing just fine. I really do need to
go do some other stuff today, but I'll be back online this evening,
sharing thoughts on this thread.

Helen

Betsy

**Unschooling is a way to do away with the pigeon holing. But it's a great
deal more. It's based on the philosophy that children -- people really! --
will learn what they need when they need it. And we have to accept that
what they need may not match what we think they need.**

I like this, Joyce, particularly the last sentence.

Betsy

Julie Bogart <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:

Thank you Joyce for your comments. I have some follow ups, if
that's okay.

>
I said: Is direction a part of unschooling at all? Any suggestions
of how
> > to spend time taboo?
>
You said: Would you want your husband to do to you what you'd
like to do for your
> kids?
>
> Would you want your husband to see you reading a trashy
novel and have him
> tell you there were better ways to spend your time? Would you
want to get
> that feeling as you sat down that if he saw you reading a trashy
novel that
> you knew he'd make "helpful" suggestions on "fun" things you
could be doing?

When you put it like that...

Actually, I think the hardest indoctrination to get over is that kids
can't be trusted to make good decisions for themselves.

My dh was commenting that he feels we ought to seize this time
(late high school/college) of life to give them a broad/liberal
education in the humanities simply for the exposure even if they
aren't keenly interested. If they go into a science field, they may
not get the chance again.

I countered that I have been giving myself an education superior
to my college education independently during my thirties and
forties due to my own passion and interest.

In fact, I regret that I was ever taught American lit in high school
because I hated it. It made me avoid it for twenty-five years. I am
not just reading those books again and am loving them. But it's
taken getting over my aversion from school to even face those
authors and titles.

In that, I have no problem waiting or allowing my kids to make
those decisions.

> It's helpful to divorce the need to suggest from the judgement
of how
> they're using their time. Suggest things because the kids might
like them
> not because you feel it's better than what they're doing. (Again,
this isn't
> meant to suggest anyone can just turn off the feelings and do
unschooling
> "right".)

Thank yo for validating that others do have these feelings. I was
starting to think I was a wimp all by myself.

You see, I've had no trouble following this mindset with young
kids. They've been robust, enthusiasitic, self-motivated
learners--all five. It's this teen stuff this is throwing me for such a
loop!

There for a while my daughter (11yo)
> was getting up to watch TV all day. It must have lasted for 2 or 3
months.
> (Or it felt that way!)

Confession: I would utterly freak out if this were the case. I can't
have the TV on all day or I would go totally batty! That's one
boundary I don't think I could give up yet.

> So, who are you kids? (That's a rhetorical question but you can
tell us if
> it would help you figure it out. :-)

Well, thanks for asking. I will share who the two oldest are so I
can at least get them out on the table here.

My oldest is male, 15. Noah is incredibly gifted with anything that
requires his hands. He has done string games, origami,
puzzles, computer games, clay sculpting, piano, guitar, wiki
sticks, rock climbing and drawing. His interest in piano is a true
depiction of his personality.

He heard the song Rondo Ala Turka (Mozart) on the Pride and
Prejudice videos four years ago. Suddenly he wanted to learn to
play the piano. I told him he could take lessons. He brought the
sheet music to his first lesson and never did use the intro to
piano music. He started with Mozart. and immediately learned to
play. Played non-stop all the time, no reminders to practice.

In three years time, he became her most gifted student.
However, conversely, he stopped practicing and kept forgetting
his lessons during the last six months. I finally stopped the
lessons (not wanting to pay for what he wasn't doing). Broke my
heart. His talent and passion all gone by the way side. No more
playing for the joy of it.

Then suddenly, since Christmas, he took up playing again, but
on his own. This time he is playing Vanessa Carlton round the
clock. And he's playing extremely well. I asked him what was
going on. His words: I like this music. I got tired of my teacher.

That is Noah all over. He is completely self taught in electric
guitar. And is doing that well too. He loves heavy metal and
wants to be in a rock band.

He reads widely and well. He acts in plays, loves Shakespeare,
has written a screenplay, he's on the teen board for the library...
He's been a model of what I thought unschooling would yield.

Socially it's been another story. He is extremely intimidated by
his peer group. He has friends, and he's very chatty when with a
group of kids his age, but he hates phone calling and complains
about not having a buddy... yet does nothing to cultivate
relationships. This has been our biggest concern for him. he
gets sort of paralyzed about pursuing friendships.

And like a typicl kid whose been doing what he wants for most of
his life, he has little patience to follow through on anything that
he doesn't feel like pursuing. Sometimes that looks like laziness
to me. I remember being pushed to finish things and being glad
for that push... so where to draw the line? Is there a line?

My 13 dd is another story. She wants to go to school because it
is a universal experience that most people have had and she's
never had it. She wants a locker, friends to chat with in the halls,
boys to flirt with and dances to go to. She wants the football
games and the homework and teachers.

She really wants the school experience.

She is also wanting to make friends outside of the homeschool
world (which feels extremely narrow to her).

She is active online with an international community of Elijah
Wood fans. She's got friends all over the world sending her
letters and gifts and invitations to visit. :) She reads voraciously.
And she's written two novellas.

This is a highly gifted girl in relational skills (opposite her
brother). She used to have stronger interests (i.e. vintage dance,
art, costume deisgn). She is more interested now in acting and
singing.

But mostly what I worry about is that I feel a pulling away from
family in all this social pursuit. I'd be for it all (I am highly
extroverted too) if it didn't seem to mean that she was less happy
being with us.

Argh.

This is too long already. Even as I type, I think, "These are cool
kids. What am I worried about?" Sigh. I guess that's why I write it
out. :)

So schoo may be on the horizon. We may do part ttime
enrollment to see if that is enough.

Thanks for all the input today. My head is swimming. But this is
just what I needed.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 4:45:18 PM, julie@... writes:

<< My dh was commenting that he feels we ought to seize this time
(late high school/college) of life to give them a broad/liberal
education in the humanities simply for the exposure even if they
aren't keenly interested. >>

Does he mean taking them to plays and musicals, going to Paris to see museums
and driving through Europe visiting castles, playing cool music in the car on
the way?

Heck YES you should do that. How could they not be keenly interested in
that?!

If he means getting a humanities book and talking to them about how history
and art are related, though... that might be a way to make them avoid the
humanities from here on out!

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 4:32:11 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<<
My kids aren't "preparing for adulthood." They're living life, just as
legitimately as any adult is. They make real decisions involving time,
money, laundry, being prepared for deadlines (even if it's as small as being
ready for friends to take them to the movies, it's real), people's feelings,
their own health, all the time. >>

This was the concept that took me the longest to "get"....Once I started
seeing that right now, this moment being lived for what it is, is the true
goal, then everything else started to make sense.
I quit trying to prepare them for an imagined future (how does any of us know
anything about what the future could hold?) and started living life just to
be happy and fulfilled. It was the paradigm shift that changed everything for
me.
We went from the mostly-unschooling-nervously type of family to the joyfully,
bubbly unschooling family (well, most days anyway...dh is still trying to get
it).


Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/5/03 7:28:03 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Actually, I think the hardest indoctrination to get over is that kids
can't be trusted to make good decisions for themselves. >>

Yes, yes, YES!!!
And it's often a self fulfilling prophesy....

Ren
"The world's much smaller than you think. Made up of two kinds of
people--simple and complicated.....The simple ones are contented. The
complicated ones aren't."
"Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com

Betsy

**They learn what they need now. The nows just naturally keep coming
along and the kids end up where they are today already knowing what they
needed last year and acquiring what they need for today.**


I agree. I think school is an artificial way to prepare for the future.
Trying to learn something "because you'll need to know this later" is a
recipe for forgetting. (Studying foreign languages in high school is a
prime example.) I think it's much better to learn things when you need them.

Betsy

Kelli Traaseth

First of all, welcome to the list Julie!

I been reading through all the resonses that you have been getting and there is such a great amount of knowledge here. As I'm sure you've seen.

I think that there are lots and lots of people here who have had your doubts and still have your doubts. They, the doubts, come and go, yet, the more I read and learn the less they come around! Which is great.

Seriously, read all you can on unschooling.com, it especially helped me on the TV/video game restrictions thing. As Sandra said, read Mary Gold's article. I was extremely against watching TV or playing video games. Then I started learning about unschooling, we can not even begin to understand what our children are learning while they are doing those things. I know I learned a ton watching different situations on TV as I was growing up.
I think you'll be surprised at how your children will actually shut off the TV, or video game (if they have one) give them the choice and its amazing. Of course if there is a new show they like or a new game they want to play, they might play/watch for hours. I know I spend alot of time on new things when I get them, a new book, a new video. And isn't their stick-to-itiveness (sp?<g>) showing then? And so many worry about kids being quitters and all. Its all perspective. And if you look from theirs, its a whole new ball game!

It is hard to let it go, our judgement of what is worth doing. But the sooner we can do it, the sooner our children can begin this wonderful life of unschooling. And then all of a sudden you'll just stop and see it all happening. I think this links right to unschooling as living life. Stop thinking about what is 'educational'; just play, have fun, and the one idea that really got me was--try to go a day and not learn something. That concept is amazing, learning is continual, always happening. Live and be joyful within the day, the moment, and don't think about what they are going to be doing 10 years down the line.

Sorry for going on and on, but I get so excited when I start writing or talking about it!!

Get ready for a wonderful, eye opening journey, its just beginning!

Take care,

Kelli

Oh, and I was going to ask, are you connected to Writing Strands, thought I saw our name there?







"Julie Bogart <julie@...>" <julie@...> wrote:--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:

Thank you Joyce for your comments. I have some follow ups, if
that's okay.

>
I said: Is direction a part of unschooling at all? Any suggestions
of how
> > to spend time taboo?
>
You said: Would you want your husband to do to you what you'd
like to do for your
> kids?
>
> Would you want your husband to see you reading a trashy
novel and have him
> tell you there were better ways to spend your time? Would you
want to get
> that feeling as you sat down that if he saw you reading a trashy
novel that
> you knew he'd make "helpful" suggestions on "fun" things you
could be doing?

When you put it like that...

Actually, I think the hardest indoctrination to get over is that kids
can't be trusted to make good decisions for themselves.

My dh was commenting that he feels we ought to seize this time
(late high school/college) of life to give them a broad/liberal
education in the humanities simply for the exposure even if they
aren't keenly interested. If they go into a science field, they may
not get the chance again.

I countered that I have been giving myself an education superior
to my college education independently during my thirties and
forties due to my own passion and interest.

In fact, I regret that I was ever taught American lit in high school
because I hated it. It made me avoid it for twenty-five years. I am
not just reading those books again and am loving them. But it's
taken getting over my aversion from school to even face those
authors and titles.

In that, I have no problem waiting or allowing my kids to make
those decisions.

> It's helpful to divorce the need to suggest from the judgement
of how
> they're using their time. Suggest things because the kids might
like them
> not because you feel it's better than what they're doing. (Again,
this isn't
> meant to suggest anyone can just turn off the feelings and do
unschooling
> "right".)

Thank yo for validating that others do have these feelings. I was
starting to think I was a wimp all by myself.

You see, I've had no trouble following this mindset with young
kids. They've been robust, enthusiasitic, self-motivated
learners--all five. It's this teen stuff this is throwing me for such a
loop!

There for a while my daughter (11yo)
> was getting up to watch TV all day. It must have lasted for 2 or 3
months.
> (Or it felt that way!)

Confession: I would utterly freak out if this were the case. I can't
have the TV on all day or I would go totally batty! That's one
boundary I don't think I could give up yet.

> So, who are you kids? (That's a rhetorical question but you can
tell us if
> it would help you figure it out. :-)

Well, thanks for asking. I will share who the two oldest are so I
can at least get them out on the table here.

My oldest is male, 15. Noah is incredibly gifted with anything that
requires his hands. He has done string games, origami,
puzzles, computer games, clay sculpting, piano, guitar, wiki
sticks, rock climbing and drawing. His interest in piano is a true
depiction of his personality.

He heard the song Rondo Ala Turka (Mozart) on the Pride and
Prejudice videos four years ago. Suddenly he wanted to learn to
play the piano. I told him he could take lessons. He brought the
sheet music to his first lesson and never did use the intro to
piano music. He started with Mozart. and immediately learned to
play. Played non-stop all the time, no reminders to practice.

In three years time, he became her most gifted student.
However, conversely, he stopped practicing and kept forgetting
his lessons during the last six months. I finally stopped the
lessons (not wanting to pay for what he wasn't doing). Broke my
heart. His talent and passion all gone by the way side. No more
playing for the joy of it.

Then suddenly, since Christmas, he took up playing again, but
on his own. This time he is playing Vanessa Carlton round the
clock. And he's playing extremely well. I asked him what was
going on. His words: I like this music. I got tired of my teacher.

That is Noah all over. He is completely self taught in electric
guitar. And is doing that well too. He loves heavy metal and
wants to be in a rock band.

He reads widely and well. He acts in plays, loves Shakespeare,
has written a screenplay, he's on the teen board for the library...
He's been a model of what I thought unschooling would yield.

Socially it's been another story. He is extremely intimidated by
his peer group. He has friends, and he's very chatty when with a
group of kids his age, but he hates phone calling and complains
about not having a buddy... yet does nothing to cultivate
relationships. This has been our biggest concern for him. he
gets sort of paralyzed about pursuing friendships.

And like a typicl kid whose been doing what he wants for most of
his life, he has little patience to follow through on anything that
he doesn't feel like pursuing. Sometimes that looks like laziness
to me. I remember being pushed to finish things and being glad
for that push... so where to draw the line? Is there a line?

My 13 dd is another story. She wants to go to school because it
is a universal experience that most people have had and she's
never had it. She wants a locker, friends to chat with in the halls,
boys to flirt with and dances to go to. She wants the football
games and the homework and teachers.

She really wants the school experience.

She is also wanting to make friends outside of the homeschool
world (which feels extremely narrow to her).

She is active online with an international community of Elijah
Wood fans. She's got friends all over the world sending her
letters and gifts and invitations to visit. :) She reads voraciously.
And she's written two novellas.

This is a highly gifted girl in relational skills (opposite her
brother). She used to have stronger interests (i.e. vintage dance,
art, costume deisgn). She is more interested now in acting and
singing.

But mostly what I worry about is that I feel a pulling away from
family in all this social pursuit. I'd be for it all (I am highly
extroverted too) if it didn't seem to mean that she was less happy
being with us.

Argh.

This is too long already. Even as I type, I think, "These are cool
kids. What am I worried about?" Sigh. I guess that's why I write it
out. :)

So schoo may be on the horizon. We may do part ttime
enrollment to see if that is enough.

Thanks for all the input today. My head is swimming. But this is
just what I needed.

Julie


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**
My dh was commenting that he feels we ought to seize this time
(late high school/college) of life to give them a broad/liberal
education in the humanities simply for the exposure even if they
aren't keenly interested. If they go into a science field, they may
not get the chance again.

I countered that I have been giving myself an education superior
to my college education independently during my thirties and
forties due to my own passion and interest.**


Good! That's what I wanted to say. Learning is definitely not
something that stops just because people leave school.

And I often think that history and literature are more delightful to an
older person than to a young adult. I'm not sure why. I also like
opera and biographies and PBS more now that I'm in my middle years.

Betsy