Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sudbury schools
bluelotus
A sudbury school would be the only kind of school I would send my
daughter to, especially if she wanted to check it out. First, I would
make sure it really is what it's supposed to be (like the original one
in MA), though. And if your daughter is not happy with it, you can
always go back to unschooling.
Yol
Blue Lotus Therapeutics
Ayurveda, Homeoathy, Yoga & Therapeutic Massage
www.bluelotustherapeutics.com <http://www.bluelotustherapeutics.com>
Dhyanyoga Center of NC
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga
www.dyc-nc.org <http://www.dyc-nc.org/>
**********************************
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. The world is ruled by
letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
-- Tao Te Ching
**********************************
daughter to, especially if she wanted to check it out. First, I would
make sure it really is what it's supposed to be (like the original one
in MA), though. And if your daughter is not happy with it, you can
always go back to unschooling.
Yol
>I was wondering if anyone has any opinions of the Sudbury Schools.--
>There is one about an hour from me, and I've been toying with the
>idea. The Circle School's website: http://www.circleschool.org/
>
>I've posted before about my daughter feeling like she needs more time
>with friends, that there's not kids her age on our block and she's
>not getting a lot of free play time with homeschooled kids. I was
>thinking maybe it would be a solution. Maybe they would allow part
>time enrollment, maybe 2 days a week, which would be perfect.
>
>If anyone's not familiar with this style of school, it's not
>very "schoolish" at all. It is a building with a ton of resources
>and adults as resource persons where kids have the freedom to do what
>they want all day. Kids and adults all have equal votes in
>everything, including the hiring and firing of teachers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Blue Lotus Therapeutics
Ayurveda, Homeoathy, Yoga & Therapeutic Massage
www.bluelotustherapeutics.com <http://www.bluelotustherapeutics.com>
Dhyanyoga Center of NC
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga
www.dyc-nc.org <http://www.dyc-nc.org/>
**********************************
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. The world is ruled by
letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
-- Tao Te Ching
**********************************
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/7/03 4:26:57 PM, ms65442@... writes:
<< a huge, scary, "What if it doesn't work?" thought keeps popping in my
head. >>
I used to tell people, tongue in cheek, that if I really screwed up my kids I
would just put them in school and those special ed teachers could get them
all caught up.
First (every time) they would look at me, stunned, thinking. As though they
thought I was serious.
But what happened (every time, and I was usually talking to teachers or
former teacher friends of mine) is they would run the scenario themselves of how
school treats kids who are behind.
And then they would get the joke and smile and be TOTALLY softer and sweeter.
Special ed doesn't help kids catch up. It just keeps them from bugging the
other kids and teachers, and teaches them some life skills ("life skills" means
usually, in school-talk, learning to cope better with school).
Sandra
<< a huge, scary, "What if it doesn't work?" thought keeps popping in my
head. >>
I used to tell people, tongue in cheek, that if I really screwed up my kids I
would just put them in school and those special ed teachers could get them
all caught up.
First (every time) they would look at me, stunned, thinking. As though they
thought I was serious.
But what happened (every time, and I was usually talking to teachers or
former teacher friends of mine) is they would run the scenario themselves of how
school treats kids who are behind.
And then they would get the joke and smile and be TOTALLY softer and sweeter.
Special ed doesn't help kids catch up. It just keeps them from bugging the
other kids and teachers, and teaches them some life skills ("life skills" means
usually, in school-talk, learning to cope better with school).
Sandra
Mark & Kristin Shields
Michelle,
My daughter (age 10) has gone to two Sudbury Schools and has just started unschooling again. She spent a year at each school and enjoyed it for the most part. I too thought that it would be nice to have the community, but for me that didn't really work out. This may have been because both schools were about 1/2 hour away from home, so it was hard to get Chloe together with other kids after school etc. I didn't like having a school schedule even though it's very flexible as far as time to drop off and pick up. You'll still get the comments about "what if it doesn't work". People ask, "what about homework?", and "what, no classes are required?". In the end I decided it was a lot of money to pay to do the same thing we had been doing at home prior to her going. From her perspective, she loved it and would go again if it were convenient for our family. We are planning to move to an area that doesn't have a Sudbury school so it won't be an issue.
I also have two friends from the SS in CA who have just left the school and are going to homeschool. Most of the SS's have a problem with maintaining their populations. They usually are struggling for money. In fact the one here on Maui did a lot of fundraising this school year. I do have to say that if I absolutely had to send my daughter to school that's the only kind of school I would consider.
Where do you live? If it's the Santa Clara school I can give you more info if you want to email privately.
Kristin (mkshields@...)
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle ~ ms65442 [SMTP:ms65442@...]
I've been a member here for about 6 months now, think unschooling makes a lot of sense, but am still personally uncomfortable with the idea of actually doing it - uncomfortable with the comments I'd get from family/friends and just a huge, scary, "What if it doesn't work?" thought keeps popping in my head.
Fortunatley, my son is just 14 months, so I don't have to make a decision right away.
In doing a little research on local schools, I found that there is a Sudbury school about 4 blocks from me. I like the sense of community available - I feel like we'd be so alone/sheltered if it was just Rory and I. I like that I can say he's going to school to anyone who asks. I like that it's based on unschooling principles and ideas.
But if he's going to school, I guess it's not unschooling.
I've read so many interesting discussions and ideas here and would love to hear the group's thoughts on Sudbury schools - opposed to regualr schooling and opposed to unschooling.
Thank you!
Michelle
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My daughter (age 10) has gone to two Sudbury Schools and has just started unschooling again. She spent a year at each school and enjoyed it for the most part. I too thought that it would be nice to have the community, but for me that didn't really work out. This may have been because both schools were about 1/2 hour away from home, so it was hard to get Chloe together with other kids after school etc. I didn't like having a school schedule even though it's very flexible as far as time to drop off and pick up. You'll still get the comments about "what if it doesn't work". People ask, "what about homework?", and "what, no classes are required?". In the end I decided it was a lot of money to pay to do the same thing we had been doing at home prior to her going. From her perspective, she loved it and would go again if it were convenient for our family. We are planning to move to an area that doesn't have a Sudbury school so it won't be an issue.
I also have two friends from the SS in CA who have just left the school and are going to homeschool. Most of the SS's have a problem with maintaining their populations. They usually are struggling for money. In fact the one here on Maui did a lot of fundraising this school year. I do have to say that if I absolutely had to send my daughter to school that's the only kind of school I would consider.
Where do you live? If it's the Santa Clara school I can give you more info if you want to email privately.
Kristin (mkshields@...)
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle ~ ms65442 [SMTP:ms65442@...]
I've been a member here for about 6 months now, think unschooling makes a lot of sense, but am still personally uncomfortable with the idea of actually doing it - uncomfortable with the comments I'd get from family/friends and just a huge, scary, "What if it doesn't work?" thought keeps popping in my head.
Fortunatley, my son is just 14 months, so I don't have to make a decision right away.
In doing a little research on local schools, I found that there is a Sudbury school about 4 blocks from me. I like the sense of community available - I feel like we'd be so alone/sheltered if it was just Rory and I. I like that I can say he's going to school to anyone who asks. I like that it's based on unschooling principles and ideas.
But if he's going to school, I guess it's not unschooling.
I've read so many interesting discussions and ideas here and would love to hear the group's thoughts on Sudbury schools - opposed to regualr schooling and opposed to unschooling.
Thank you!
Michelle
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: "Michelle ~ ms65442" <ms65442@...>
<< I've read so many interesting discussions and ideas here and would love
to hear the group's thoughts on Sudbury schools - opposed to regualr
schooling and opposed to unschooling.>>
I only know about Sudbury schools by what I have read. And from what I have
read, if one has the money and wants the whole school scene and one is close
by, then okay. I feel like if a child *has* to go to school, then a Sudbury
is the way to go. But I still think unschooling is better.
I had a friend here who was very relaxed with her two kids. They saw a
Sudbury piece on 60 Minutes and wanted to go. She moved to Oregon as they
had a free public Sudbury school there. I was curious to know how they did.
No one has heard from her so I can't really say how that went.
Mary B
<< I've read so many interesting discussions and ideas here and would love
to hear the group's thoughts on Sudbury schools - opposed to regualr
schooling and opposed to unschooling.>>
I only know about Sudbury schools by what I have read. And from what I have
read, if one has the money and wants the whole school scene and one is close
by, then okay. I feel like if a child *has* to go to school, then a Sudbury
is the way to go. But I still think unschooling is better.
I had a friend here who was very relaxed with her two kids. They saw a
Sudbury piece on 60 Minutes and wanted to go. She moved to Oregon as they
had a free public Sudbury school there. I was curious to know how they did.
No one has heard from her so I can't really say how that went.
Mary B
[email protected]
"I like that I
can say he's going to school to anyone who asks. I like that it's based on
unschooling principles and ideas."
I think Sudbury schools sound wonderful. I have no problem with the concept and I've heard happy things from people that use them...except most unschoolers I've heard from have usually decided they can do their own thing MUCH less expensively.
The problem I have is with your first statement of the quote I pasted above.
I hope you don't take this wrong, but I wonder why your child's happiness and choices would come lower on the priority list than what other people think.
If your child wanted to be home, would you listen, regardless of what others thought? I think it takes a tough skin to unschool in a lot of ways and if you don't develop that, unschooling has very little chance of success.
I understand the fears, most of us dealt with some level of fear and questioning. And with your child being so young, you do have time to develop that thick skin!:)
I think if you believe wholeheartedly in something, to the very core of your being, if you KNOW without a doubt that it is right and best, the opinions of other people become irrelevant.
That's where you need to get if unschooling is your choice. And I can't think of a better way than to read, read, read and maybe meet some real life unschoolers. There is the conference in August you know!
Ren
can say he's going to school to anyone who asks. I like that it's based on
unschooling principles and ideas."
I think Sudbury schools sound wonderful. I have no problem with the concept and I've heard happy things from people that use them...except most unschoolers I've heard from have usually decided they can do their own thing MUCH less expensively.
The problem I have is with your first statement of the quote I pasted above.
I hope you don't take this wrong, but I wonder why your child's happiness and choices would come lower on the priority list than what other people think.
If your child wanted to be home, would you listen, regardless of what others thought? I think it takes a tough skin to unschool in a lot of ways and if you don't develop that, unschooling has very little chance of success.
I understand the fears, most of us dealt with some level of fear and questioning. And with your child being so young, you do have time to develop that thick skin!:)
I think if you believe wholeheartedly in something, to the very core of your being, if you KNOW without a doubt that it is right and best, the opinions of other people become irrelevant.
That's where you need to get if unschooling is your choice. And I can't think of a better way than to read, read, read and maybe meet some real life unschoolers. There is the conference in August you know!
Ren
Michelle~ms65442
This is what I�m looking for. Why do you think unschooling is better?
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary [mailto:mummy124@...]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<<I only know about Sudbury schools by what I have read. And from what I
have
read, if one has the money and wants the whole school scene and one is
close
by, then okay. I feel like if a child *has* to go to school, then a
Sudbury
is the way to go. But I still think unschooling is better.>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary [mailto:mummy124@...]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<<I only know about Sudbury schools by what I have read. And from what I
have
read, if one has the money and wants the whole school scene and one is
close
by, then okay. I feel like if a child *has* to go to school, then a
Sudbury
is the way to go. But I still think unschooling is better.>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle~ms65442
If my son wanted to stay home, I would certainly let him.
To me, it isn’t an issue of choosing his happiness over other people’s
personal issues. If he never goes to school, how would I know if he’d
be happier there – and conversely, if he goes to school exclusively, how
would I know he’d be happier at home (assuming he doesn’t ask me to stay
home). It’s just trying to find the right fit for our family. I *love*
unschooling principles and ideas. I wish I had that as a child. But
it’s taking a while for me to really BELIEVE in it all, that it can work
and he will flourish and learn and grow if allowed to do so on his own
schedule. Like you said – I’m lucky that he is so young so that I can
have more time to let it all sink in. Perhaps I will attend a
conference in the years to come so I can see unschooling kids and their
families in action.
I have to work on my own deschooling I think. I’m a very schooly
person. I’m amazed that he can start kindergarten next fall. Half of
me is pulling to put him in a program a few mornings a week for the
experience (of being in a group, working with others, being exposed to
people and things we don’t have at home or know about or whatever – not
for the ABC’s or anything) and half of me is thinking I shouldn’t even
start down that path. I am honestly really torn up about it all.
Hopefully by the time he’s school age I can move to the backwoods where
the PS are terrible and like an hour away and the choice will be made
for me.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: starsuncloud@... [mailto:starsuncloud@...]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 8:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<<If your child wanted to be home, would you listen, regardless of what
others thought? I think it takes a tough skin to unschool in a lot of
ways and if you don't develop that, unschooling has very little chance
of success.
I understand the fears, most of us dealt with some level of fear and
questioning. And with your child being so young, you do have time to
develop that thick skin!:)
I think if you believe wholeheartedly in something, to the very core of
your being, if you KNOW without a doubt that it is right and best, the
opinions of other people become irrelevant.
That's where you need to get if unschooling is your choice. And I can't
think of a better way than to read, read, read and maybe meet some real
life unschoolers. There is the conference in August you know!
Ren>>
To me, it isn’t an issue of choosing his happiness over other people’s
personal issues. If he never goes to school, how would I know if he’d
be happier there – and conversely, if he goes to school exclusively, how
would I know he’d be happier at home (assuming he doesn’t ask me to stay
home). It’s just trying to find the right fit for our family. I *love*
unschooling principles and ideas. I wish I had that as a child. But
it’s taking a while for me to really BELIEVE in it all, that it can work
and he will flourish and learn and grow if allowed to do so on his own
schedule. Like you said – I’m lucky that he is so young so that I can
have more time to let it all sink in. Perhaps I will attend a
conference in the years to come so I can see unschooling kids and their
families in action.
I have to work on my own deschooling I think. I’m a very schooly
person. I’m amazed that he can start kindergarten next fall. Half of
me is pulling to put him in a program a few mornings a week for the
experience (of being in a group, working with others, being exposed to
people and things we don’t have at home or know about or whatever – not
for the ABC’s or anything) and half of me is thinking I shouldn’t even
start down that path. I am honestly really torn up about it all.
Hopefully by the time he’s school age I can move to the backwoods where
the PS are terrible and like an hour away and the choice will be made
for me.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: starsuncloud@... [mailto:starsuncloud@...]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 8:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<<If your child wanted to be home, would you listen, regardless of what
others thought? I think it takes a tough skin to unschool in a lot of
ways and if you don't develop that, unschooling has very little chance
of success.
I understand the fears, most of us dealt with some level of fear and
questioning. And with your child being so young, you do have time to
develop that thick skin!:)
I think if you believe wholeheartedly in something, to the very core of
your being, if you KNOW without a doubt that it is right and best, the
opinions of other people become irrelevant.
That's where you need to get if unschooling is your choice. And I can't
think of a better way than to read, read, read and maybe meet some real
life unschoolers. There is the conference in August you know!
Ren>>
Mark & Kristin Shields
Hi Michelle,
You ought to take a look at the HSC conference in Sacramento this August (http://conference.hsc.org/). It's not exclusively unschooling, but it will give you are good idea of what homeschooling families are like. They definitely have unschooling talks and workshops and you might meet some unschooling families there. I have two friends from the Sudbury school who are going to start homeschooling this fall and will be attending the conference.
It does sound like you need some deschooling. Have you read any John Holt yet? There is a new version of Teach Your Own out and you might also like Learning All the Time. You should also check out The Unschooling Handbook by Mary Griffith. You mentioned your son would be able to go to K next year, but won't he only be about 2 years old?? Anyway, my daughter never went to preschool and was able to be in groups of little kids because I was part of a Mom's group that met when the babies were about 2 months old and met every week for many years. You can visit zoos and children's museums and just have a good time playing with him. Even if he only has play times with one or two other children he will learn all he needs about being in a group at this young age. Please think and about unschooling a while before starting anything like preschool. You have plenty of time!
Kristin
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle~ms65442 [SMTP:ms65442@...]
Perhaps I will attend a
conference in the years to come so I can see unschooling kids and their
families in action.
I have to work on my own deschooling I think. I'm a very schooly
person. I'm amazed that he can start kindergarten next fall. Half of
me is pulling to put him in a program a few mornings a week for the
experience (of being in a group, working with others, being exposed to
people and things we don't have at home or know about or whatever - not
for the ABC's or anything) and half of me is thinking I shouldn't even
start down that path. I am honestly really torn up about it all.
Hopefully by the time he's school age I can move to the backwoods where
the PS are terrible and like an hour away and the choice will be made
for me.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You ought to take a look at the HSC conference in Sacramento this August (http://conference.hsc.org/). It's not exclusively unschooling, but it will give you are good idea of what homeschooling families are like. They definitely have unschooling talks and workshops and you might meet some unschooling families there. I have two friends from the Sudbury school who are going to start homeschooling this fall and will be attending the conference.
It does sound like you need some deschooling. Have you read any John Holt yet? There is a new version of Teach Your Own out and you might also like Learning All the Time. You should also check out The Unschooling Handbook by Mary Griffith. You mentioned your son would be able to go to K next year, but won't he only be about 2 years old?? Anyway, my daughter never went to preschool and was able to be in groups of little kids because I was part of a Mom's group that met when the babies were about 2 months old and met every week for many years. You can visit zoos and children's museums and just have a good time playing with him. Even if he only has play times with one or two other children he will learn all he needs about being in a group at this young age. Please think and about unschooling a while before starting anything like preschool. You have plenty of time!
Kristin
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle~ms65442 [SMTP:ms65442@...]
Perhaps I will attend a
conference in the years to come so I can see unschooling kids and their
families in action.
I have to work on my own deschooling I think. I'm a very schooly
person. I'm amazed that he can start kindergarten next fall. Half of
me is pulling to put him in a program a few mornings a week for the
experience (of being in a group, working with others, being exposed to
people and things we don't have at home or know about or whatever - not
for the ABC's or anything) and half of me is thinking I shouldn't even
start down that path. I am honestly really torn up about it all.
Hopefully by the time he's school age I can move to the backwoods where
the PS are terrible and like an hour away and the choice will be made
for me.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**This is what Im looking for. Why do you think unschooling is better?**
Hi, Michelle --
I know that the Santa Clara (CA) Sudbury school has flexible drop off
and pick up times, but isn't there a core number of hours that the
student has to be at the school, or nearby, per week? (I know they are
allowed to leave the campus, but how far can they get?) Doesn't that
limit what they could be learning/doing in that time? A local
unschooling family could be going anywhere, e.g. enjoying an off-season
day at the beach or a trip to the Aquarium, visiting grandma or favorite
friends. Because of traffic, I *prefer* doing out of town stuff during
the week.
In what way do you think a Sudbury school could be better than
unschooling? There must be something about it that you find attractive.
The fact that there are other kids present? You can get that by
inviting kids over or by going to park days and you don't have to pay
thousands of dollars of tuition. (Last I heard I think the going rate
was $7000 per school year.) (I don't know what part of the Bay Area you
are in, but the South Bay has park days, that I know of, on Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday, and probably Monday.)
Betsy
Hi, Michelle --
I know that the Santa Clara (CA) Sudbury school has flexible drop off
and pick up times, but isn't there a core number of hours that the
student has to be at the school, or nearby, per week? (I know they are
allowed to leave the campus, but how far can they get?) Doesn't that
limit what they could be learning/doing in that time? A local
unschooling family could be going anywhere, e.g. enjoying an off-season
day at the beach or a trip to the Aquarium, visiting grandma or favorite
friends. Because of traffic, I *prefer* doing out of town stuff during
the week.
In what way do you think a Sudbury school could be better than
unschooling? There must be something about it that you find attractive.
The fact that there are other kids present? You can get that by
inviting kids over or by going to park days and you don't have to pay
thousands of dollars of tuition. (Last I heard I think the going rate
was $7000 per school year.) (I don't know what part of the Bay Area you
are in, but the South Bay has park days, that I know of, on Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday, and probably Monday.)
Betsy
Fetteroll
on 7/8/03 4:08 AM, Michelle~ms65442 at ms65442@... wrote:
on what your son might want. All your concerns were about what others would
think and about what you want for him. Obviously he's too young to give you
an opinion about what he wants in schools and socialization ;-) but the
vantage point you're viewing the situation with is worth examining and
probably at the root of your concerns.
When someone's focus shifts from providing what they think their child
needs/what they think is best for their child to helping their child get
what they want then lots of problems with unschooling disappear.
It might take you a while for that shift to feel more natural because right
now he's at the age where you still have to guess what he wants and make a
lot of decisions for him. So you're going to view the future through those
glasses. Some parents never remove those glasses. But if you can -- and
people here can help -- then the problems -- and the solutions that look
good -- won't look the same.
School won't escape his notice. His friends will go. He'll hear things about
school. You can talk to him about your experiences in school. You can tell
him what the days are like when he's watching Arthur or Magic Schoolbus and
school looks like loads of time with friends and a few minutes of being told
what to do. He'll see his life and the lives of homeschooling and
unschooling friends.
And, as Kathryn pointed out, there's the family aspect. Though my daughter
enjoys playing with friends, she'd still rather be at home doing her own
thing. School doesn't have any appeal for her. (She did try public school
for 2 months so she even knows first hand that home suits her much better.)
Here's something I wrote on the Unschooling-101 list:
=============
can learn math by living if you haven't ever seen a child do it. You can't
just wipe away 20+ years of seeing and hearing that math is hard and the
only way to do it is by working through all the problems in the textbook.
We all love our kids as much as you do yours. The only real difference is
that we've *seen* unschooling work so we know those fears -- that we've all
had too! -- are groundless.
Perhaps it all seems like we're Wiley Coyote out suspended in air. You can
see there's a bottomless pit under us and the only reason we aren't
plummetting downward is that we haven't noticed we're out in midair yet. As
soon as we notice, we'll drop.
But from our perspective, we've realized the pit is an illusion. We're not
falling because we're on solid ground. It's like that last scene in the 3rd
Indiana Jones movie (Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail?).
comforting illusion.
be giving up in order to get that? What would he be getting in addition that
you'd rather he didn't?
Every experience he has, he'll be exposed to different ideas. In order to
do, say, a unit study on dinosaurs or do organized activities with other
kids he's going to have to learn all the lessons of how to behave in school.
(It's part of what kindergarten is for.) He's going to have to face mean
kids without being able to escape or you there to help him. (And that's
unique to school. As adults we know we can always leave, even leave a job,
if we don't like the environment.)
unschooling so school won't hold any power over you any more :-)
(Even better is to do lots of reading here and on the message boards of
Unschooling.com and at Sandra's site so that you can acquire that
understanding and you won't have to rely on fate handing it to you! ;-)
Joyce
> To me, it isn¹t an issue of choosing his happiness over other people¹sWell, if you reread your original post, you'll notice you never speculated
> personal issues.
on what your son might want. All your concerns were about what others would
think and about what you want for him. Obviously he's too young to give you
an opinion about what he wants in schools and socialization ;-) but the
vantage point you're viewing the situation with is worth examining and
probably at the root of your concerns.
When someone's focus shifts from providing what they think their child
needs/what they think is best for their child to helping their child get
what they want then lots of problems with unschooling disappear.
It might take you a while for that shift to feel more natural because right
now he's at the age where you still have to guess what he wants and make a
lot of decisions for him. So you're going to view the future through those
glasses. Some parents never remove those glasses. But if you can -- and
people here can help -- then the problems -- and the solutions that look
good -- won't look the same.
> If he never goes to school, how would I know if he¹dBecause he'll be older and he'll tell you :-)
> be happier there and conversely, if he goes to school exclusively, how
> would I know he¹d be happier at home
School won't escape his notice. His friends will go. He'll hear things about
school. You can talk to him about your experiences in school. You can tell
him what the days are like when he's watching Arthur or Magic Schoolbus and
school looks like loads of time with friends and a few minutes of being told
what to do. He'll see his life and the lives of homeschooling and
unschooling friends.
And, as Kathryn pointed out, there's the family aspect. Though my daughter
enjoys playing with friends, she'd still rather be at home doing her own
thing. School doesn't have any appeal for her. (She did try public school
for 2 months so she even knows first hand that home suits her much better.)
> It¹s just trying to find the right fit for our family.But what's the right fit for *him*?
Here's something I wrote on the Unschooling-101 list:
=============
>> It might be worth examining what "works for us" means to you.=============
>>
>> Perhaps one factor that sets unschooling apart is that unschooling is doing
>> what works for the child. Well, it needs to work for the family too! But it
>> should work in terms of maximizing joy not in minimizing fears.
>>
>> People often say we should do what feels right. Go on gut instinct. But what
>> feels right is often what minimizes our fears. That isn't so bad except that
>> we're full of fears that seem to make sense but aren't based in reality or
>> are only valid when certain factors exist.
>>
>> For instance we may fear that they won't read or learn math. We may fear
>> that they won't know enough. We may fear that they will have gaps and doors
>> will be closed off to them. We may fear that without a solid foundation of
>> education, they'll be useful only as Wal-Mart greeters.
>>
>> Too often we parents end up compromising our children's happiness so they
>> can ease our fears. If we fear they won't read we might make them read for
>> "just" 10 minutes a day. It doesn't seem like much to ask of the child
>> because the fear seems so huge.
>>
>> But since the fear is valid only in school, the potential consequences out
>> of school -- that the child will come to dislike reading or they will feel
>> bad about themselves because they can't do what "everyone" can -- become
>> significant and something to be avoided.
>>
>> If someone seems unconcerned about what we fear, it seems more reasonable
>> that they're just clueless or living in la-la land, than that our fears
>> might not be real. They sure feel real! Unschooling means holding our fears
>> up to examination. It means being uncomfortable while we work through our
>> fears. It means looking at how other people deal with those fears.
>>
>> Because the rewards for children of growing up in freedom and joy are well
>> worth it :-)
> ButThis is totally and completely normal! :-) It doesn't make sense that kids
> it¹s taking a while for me to really BELIEVE in it all, that it can work
> and he will flourish and learn and grow if allowed to do so on his own
> schedule.
can learn math by living if you haven't ever seen a child do it. You can't
just wipe away 20+ years of seeing and hearing that math is hard and the
only way to do it is by working through all the problems in the textbook.
We all love our kids as much as you do yours. The only real difference is
that we've *seen* unschooling work so we know those fears -- that we've all
had too! -- are groundless.
Perhaps it all seems like we're Wiley Coyote out suspended in air. You can
see there's a bottomless pit under us and the only reason we aren't
plummetting downward is that we haven't noticed we're out in midair yet. As
soon as we notice, we'll drop.
But from our perspective, we've realized the pit is an illusion. We're not
falling because we're on solid ground. It's like that last scene in the 3rd
Indiana Jones movie (Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail?).
> I have to work on my own deschooling I think. I¹m a very schoolyYes. Been there. Still a schooly person at heart but I know it's all a
> person.
comforting illusion.
> Half ofWhat is it he could get there that he can't get anywhere else? What would he
> me is pulling to put him in a program a few mornings a week for the
> experience (of being in a group, working with others, being exposed to
> people and things we don¹t have at home or know about or whatever
be giving up in order to get that? What would he be getting in addition that
you'd rather he didn't?
Every experience he has, he'll be exposed to different ideas. In order to
do, say, a unit study on dinosaurs or do organized activities with other
kids he's going to have to learn all the lessons of how to behave in school.
(It's part of what kindergarten is for.) He's going to have to face mean
kids without being able to escape or you there to help him. (And that's
unique to school. As adults we know we can always leave, even leave a job,
if we don't like the environment.)
> Hopefully by the time he¹s school age I can move to the backwoods whereWell, as long as you're hoping, why not hope for an understanding of
> the PS are terrible and like an hour away and the choice will be made
> for me.
unschooling so school won't hold any power over you any more :-)
(Even better is to do lots of reading here and on the message boards of
Unschooling.com and at Sandra's site so that you can acquire that
understanding and you won't have to rely on fate handing it to you! ;-)
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/03 2:10:28 AM, ms65442@... writes:
<< Hopefully by the time he’s school age I can move to the backwoods where
the PS are terrible and like an hour away and the choice will be made
for me. >>
That would mean the other kids and the theaters and the video rental place
and all are also an hour away, and if he's too isolated he might want to go to
school just to be with people.
It's much easier for you the mom to take the time and effort to consciously
try to get over your schoolishness than it is to move an hour away from the
nearest terrible school! (It's cheaper, too! <bwg>)
Sandra
<< Hopefully by the time he’s school age I can move to the backwoods where
the PS are terrible and like an hour away and the choice will be made
for me. >>
That would mean the other kids and the theaters and the video rental place
and all are also an hour away, and if he's too isolated he might want to go to
school just to be with people.
It's much easier for you the mom to take the time and effort to consciously
try to get over your schoolishness than it is to move an hour away from the
nearest terrible school! (It's cheaper, too! <bwg>)
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 01:31 AM, Mark & Kristin Shields wrote:
supporting kids learning mathematics in a joyful way. Another for
parents and kids - math-related activities for fun. Also I'm going to
talk with Dan Vilter, another unschooling parent, about television.
There will be an unschooling panel, too (I'm not on that, this year).
I'm also speaking at the South Carolina conference. YAY -- can't wait
to meet all my online unschooling friends from the other side of the
country!!
-pam
> You ought to take a look at the HSC conference in Sacramento thisI'll be speaking there - doing several workshops. One is for parents on
> August (http://conference.hsc.org/). It's not exclusively
> unschooling, but it will give you are good idea of what homeschooling
> families are like. They definitely have unschooling talks and
> workshops and you might meet some unschooling families there.
supporting kids learning mathematics in a joyful way. Another for
parents and kids - math-related activities for fun. Also I'm going to
talk with Dan Vilter, another unschooling parent, about television.
There will be an unschooling panel, too (I'm not on that, this year).
I'm also speaking at the South Carolina conference. YAY -- can't wait
to meet all my online unschooling friends from the other side of the
country!!
-pam
Mark & Kristin Shields
You are right about the minimum number of hours to be spent "in school" even if it's off campus. I think the thing is that many of the kids come from public school, so everything about these schools seems freeing to them. Coming from unschooling it seems limited though.
In my case my daughter really wanted to go because her best homeschooling friend started to go there. Her friend went because she is highly social, apparently needing to be with other kids daily and all day. Her mom, who is a good friend of mine, always said it would be really hard to provide all the social time as a homeschooler. She also had two little ones to deal with and thought that limited the park day times and outings. In our family we like a lot of home time, alone time, so it never seemed a problem to us. So, I guess it depends on your perspective. Also, the girl mentioned above was so relieved to finally be going to school. When her parents suggested this alternative to homeschooling she said, "Thank you so much, now I can finally be like all the other kids".
I think the tuition is pretty outrageous too, especially considering no classes are involved. However, even at those prices these schools always struggle. Even after many years of going strong, just losing a significant number (like 5) of kids can put them in jeopardy. Also, these schools really attract younger kids and when they get to a certain age (usually around 10 or so) parents there start to expect more and often put them in regular school so they can finally "buckle down and do some work". Hey, another thing I noticed that was interesting. My daughter is a major reader and writer, but when she was in school she didn't do nearly as much of that as when she was home. I think it actually limited the amount of time she spent learning about interesting things.
In the south bay there are park days on Mondays, in Sunnyvale. I would imagine in Michelle's area there are many possibilities too.
Kristin
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy [SMTP:ecsamhill@...]
I know that the Santa Clara (CA) Sudbury school has flexible drop off
and pick up times, but isn't there a core number of hours that the
student has to be at the school, or nearby, per week? (I know they are
allowed to leave the campus, but how far can they get?) Doesn't that
limit what they could be learning/doing in that time? A local
unschooling family could be going anywhere, e.g. enjoying an off-season
day at the beach or a trip to the Aquarium, visiting grandma or favorite
friends. Because of traffic, I *prefer* doing out of town stuff during
the week.
In what way do you think a Sudbury school could be better than
unschooling? There must be something about it that you find attractive.
The fact that there are other kids present? You can get that by
inviting kids over or by going to park days and you don't have to pay
thousands of dollars of tuition. (Last I heard I think the going rate
was $7000 per school year.) (I don't know what part of the Bay Area you
are in, but the South Bay has park days, that I know of, on Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday, and probably Monday.)
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In my case my daughter really wanted to go because her best homeschooling friend started to go there. Her friend went because she is highly social, apparently needing to be with other kids daily and all day. Her mom, who is a good friend of mine, always said it would be really hard to provide all the social time as a homeschooler. She also had two little ones to deal with and thought that limited the park day times and outings. In our family we like a lot of home time, alone time, so it never seemed a problem to us. So, I guess it depends on your perspective. Also, the girl mentioned above was so relieved to finally be going to school. When her parents suggested this alternative to homeschooling she said, "Thank you so much, now I can finally be like all the other kids".
I think the tuition is pretty outrageous too, especially considering no classes are involved. However, even at those prices these schools always struggle. Even after many years of going strong, just losing a significant number (like 5) of kids can put them in jeopardy. Also, these schools really attract younger kids and when they get to a certain age (usually around 10 or so) parents there start to expect more and often put them in regular school so they can finally "buckle down and do some work". Hey, another thing I noticed that was interesting. My daughter is a major reader and writer, but when she was in school she didn't do nearly as much of that as when she was home. I think it actually limited the amount of time she spent learning about interesting things.
In the south bay there are park days on Mondays, in Sunnyvale. I would imagine in Michelle's area there are many possibilities too.
Kristin
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy [SMTP:ecsamhill@...]
I know that the Santa Clara (CA) Sudbury school has flexible drop off
and pick up times, but isn't there a core number of hours that the
student has to be at the school, or nearby, per week? (I know they are
allowed to leave the campus, but how far can they get?) Doesn't that
limit what they could be learning/doing in that time? A local
unschooling family could be going anywhere, e.g. enjoying an off-season
day at the beach or a trip to the Aquarium, visiting grandma or favorite
friends. Because of traffic, I *prefer* doing out of town stuff during
the week.
In what way do you think a Sudbury school could be better than
unschooling? There must be something about it that you find attractive.
The fact that there are other kids present? You can get that by
inviting kids over or by going to park days and you don't have to pay
thousands of dollars of tuition. (Last I heard I think the going rate
was $7000 per school year.) (I don't know what part of the Bay Area you
are in, but the South Bay has park days, that I know of, on Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday, and probably Monday.)
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle ~ ms65442
Betsy,
Good point about the minimum hours. If he's enjoying being home (working on a project - or not) it would be a shame to get into power struggles about *having* to go to school to fufill a minimum hours requirement.
I find it attractive because I work during the day. Right now, Rory is home with his dad, but I don't expect that to last through school age. I'm in a position where I may not have to work by the time Rory is school age, but I'm not sure. If I do have to work, I think Sudbury would be an option that would balance both worlds as best as possible givin our circumstances.
I'm also more of an introvert and have a hard time meeting people and just plain old getting out of the house, so I'm afraid I'd have a hard time providing a rich social life. But I'm working on that too.
The school out here is $2000 for the first year if the kid is under 7, $3800 thereafter, so cost isn't a huge factor at this point.
Michelle
Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
<<isn't there a core number of hours that the
student has to be at the school, or nearby, per week? >>
<SNIP>
<<In what way do you think a Sudbury school could be better than
unschooling? There must be something about it that you find attractive.
The fact that there are other kids present? You can get that by
inviting kids over or by going to park days and you don't have to pay
thousands of dollars of tuition. >>
Michelle, SF East Bay
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good point about the minimum hours. If he's enjoying being home (working on a project - or not) it would be a shame to get into power struggles about *having* to go to school to fufill a minimum hours requirement.
I find it attractive because I work during the day. Right now, Rory is home with his dad, but I don't expect that to last through school age. I'm in a position where I may not have to work by the time Rory is school age, but I'm not sure. If I do have to work, I think Sudbury would be an option that would balance both worlds as best as possible givin our circumstances.
I'm also more of an introvert and have a hard time meeting people and just plain old getting out of the house, so I'm afraid I'd have a hard time providing a rich social life. But I'm working on that too.
The school out here is $2000 for the first year if the kid is under 7, $3800 thereafter, so cost isn't a huge factor at this point.
Michelle
Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
<<isn't there a core number of hours that the
student has to be at the school, or nearby, per week? >>
<SNIP>
<<In what way do you think a Sudbury school could be better than
unschooling? There must be something about it that you find attractive.
The fact that there are other kids present? You can get that by
inviting kids over or by going to park days and you don't have to pay
thousands of dollars of tuition. >>
Michelle, SF East Bay
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle ~ ms65442
<<You ought to take a look at the HSC conference in Sacramento this August (http://conference.hsc.org/). It's not exclusively unschooling, but it will give you are good idea of what homeschooling families are like. They definitely have unschooling talks and workshops and you might meet some unschooling families there. >>
Yes, excellent idea! We'll be there!
<<You mentioned your son would be able to go to K next year, but won't he only be about 2 years old??>>
He'll be able to go to preschool next year - and yes, he'll be 2 years old.
<<It does sound like you need some deschooling. Have you read any John Holt yet? >>
I haven't read any John Holt yet - have been reading here avidly, and have added some great unschooling stuff into my Amazon Wish list - now I'm waiting to get through my last order of books so I can get this batch.
I didn't touch on this in my original email, but started to in my last post, but part of what's an issue for me right now is that I work outside the home right now. Rory is with his dad all day, which is a good arrangmeent, but, well, to put it bluntly, Dan is kinda lazy. They don't get out much, they don't do much. Right now I'm not too concerned about it, but if I have to continue working (I'm not sure yet if I will) I really don't want Rory in that environment for years and years. Dan takes him about 3 days a week to Dan's sister's house for a few hours, which is great, and to the park maybe one other day, but when they're home Dan just vegges in front of the TV.
So preschool is being considered for next year if I'm still working and Rory is home with Dan. I think it would be good for Rory to get out of the house and go somewhere a few days a week - see, hear, touch, taste new things he may not get at home.
Michelle
Michelle, SF East Bay
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, excellent idea! We'll be there!
<<You mentioned your son would be able to go to K next year, but won't he only be about 2 years old??>>
He'll be able to go to preschool next year - and yes, he'll be 2 years old.
<<It does sound like you need some deschooling. Have you read any John Holt yet? >>
I haven't read any John Holt yet - have been reading here avidly, and have added some great unschooling stuff into my Amazon Wish list - now I'm waiting to get through my last order of books so I can get this batch.
I didn't touch on this in my original email, but started to in my last post, but part of what's an issue for me right now is that I work outside the home right now. Rory is with his dad all day, which is a good arrangmeent, but, well, to put it bluntly, Dan is kinda lazy. They don't get out much, they don't do much. Right now I'm not too concerned about it, but if I have to continue working (I'm not sure yet if I will) I really don't want Rory in that environment for years and years. Dan takes him about 3 days a week to Dan's sister's house for a few hours, which is great, and to the park maybe one other day, but when they're home Dan just vegges in front of the TV.
So preschool is being considered for next year if I'm still working and Rory is home with Dan. I think it would be good for Rory to get out of the house and go somewhere a few days a week - see, hear, touch, taste new things he may not get at home.
Michelle
Michelle, SF East Bay
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle ~ ms65442
SC is a bit to far for me this year - but perhaps I'll be able to make it next year. I'd really love to go to an unschooling conference before we really start our journey. I think it would help Dan and I really feel more secure about making a decision like that.
But I'll watch for you in Sac - I've got my calender marked and will go home to see how Dan feels about it. Should be a go.
Michelle
Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
<<I'll be speaking there - doing several workshops. One is for parents on
supporting kids learning mathematics in a joyful way. Another for
parents and kids - math-related activities for fun. Also I'm going to
talk with Dan Vilter, another unschooling parent, about television.
There will be an unschooling panel, too (I'm not on that, this year).>>
Michelle, SF East Bay
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But I'll watch for you in Sac - I've got my calender marked and will go home to see how Dan feels about it. Should be a go.
Michelle
Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
<<I'll be speaking there - doing several workshops. One is for parents on
supporting kids learning mathematics in a joyful way. Another for
parents and kids - math-related activities for fun. Also I'm going to
talk with Dan Vilter, another unschooling parent, about television.
There will be an unschooling panel, too (I'm not on that, this year).>>
Michelle, SF East Bay
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle ~ ms65442
I didn't speculate what my son might want because, like you said, we're still in the stage of guessing what he wants - most are educated guesses, but guesses nonetheless. I see what you're saying about having to evenutally make that shift from doing what you think is best to doing what *they* tell you they want. It's hard to see that reality at this point because I'm not living it and never have, but I know it will come and am watching for it.
If I went with my gut, I wouldn't be here, I would plop him in public school and let nature take it's course there. So I'm trying. My gut is terrified - but I know it's just fear of the unknown, fear of doing something different, fear of failure. PS seems so easy - if something goes wrong - blame it on the schools, the education system, the teacher, the budget cuts - whatever. But I do want better for him - that's why I'm here.
I talked a lot more about the whys regarding preschool in a message I just sent out - so I don't want you to think I'm ignoring that question, just not repeating myself endlessly again in this message.
As for what he would be giving up - well, at this point a few hours a week sitting around the house with his dad doing nothing. And while I totally see the value in doing nothing, they get plenty of down time together, so I really think preschool might be nice for him. He's a very social kid and would enjoy a few extra hours a week with other people. He gets bored of me and Dan. He would also be getting the schooly aspect of preschool (although I honestly don't know how much they can do with 2 or 3 year olds) which I don't like. It's really hard to weigh what's more important - I think it is important that he get out and see new things and have fun with other kids (and preschool would be the path of least resistance for Dan - who is the one having to do it all, so I do have to take that into account) but I also want to avoid the "Sit down in a ciricle, we're going to sing now" when he's totally engrossed in blocks and HAS to go sit for basically no reason but "because teacher
said so."
I am hoping for a better understanding of unschooling - the living in the backwoods comment was more tongue-in-cheek. Although we will be moving (hopefully) to a nice little mini-farm farther away from the city here, one of my goals is to still stay accessable to the Bay Area - there's so much culture and so much to do here, it would be a shame to never let Rory really experience it.
Michelle
Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
<<Well, if you reread your original post, you'll notice you never speculated
on what your son might want. All your concerns were about what others would
think and about what you want for him. Obviously he's too young to give you
an opinion about what he wants in schools and socialization ;-) but the
vantage point you're viewing the situation with is worth examining and
probably at the root of your concerns.>>
Michelle, SF East Bay
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If I went with my gut, I wouldn't be here, I would plop him in public school and let nature take it's course there. So I'm trying. My gut is terrified - but I know it's just fear of the unknown, fear of doing something different, fear of failure. PS seems so easy - if something goes wrong - blame it on the schools, the education system, the teacher, the budget cuts - whatever. But I do want better for him - that's why I'm here.
I talked a lot more about the whys regarding preschool in a message I just sent out - so I don't want you to think I'm ignoring that question, just not repeating myself endlessly again in this message.
As for what he would be giving up - well, at this point a few hours a week sitting around the house with his dad doing nothing. And while I totally see the value in doing nothing, they get plenty of down time together, so I really think preschool might be nice for him. He's a very social kid and would enjoy a few extra hours a week with other people. He gets bored of me and Dan. He would also be getting the schooly aspect of preschool (although I honestly don't know how much they can do with 2 or 3 year olds) which I don't like. It's really hard to weigh what's more important - I think it is important that he get out and see new things and have fun with other kids (and preschool would be the path of least resistance for Dan - who is the one having to do it all, so I do have to take that into account) but I also want to avoid the "Sit down in a ciricle, we're going to sing now" when he's totally engrossed in blocks and HAS to go sit for basically no reason but "because teacher
said so."
I am hoping for a better understanding of unschooling - the living in the backwoods comment was more tongue-in-cheek. Although we will be moving (hopefully) to a nice little mini-farm farther away from the city here, one of my goals is to still stay accessable to the Bay Area - there's so much culture and so much to do here, it would be a shame to never let Rory really experience it.
Michelle
Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
<<Well, if you reread your original post, you'll notice you never speculated
on what your son might want. All your concerns were about what others would
think and about what you want for him. Obviously he's too young to give you
an opinion about what he wants in schools and socialization ;-) but the
vantage point you're viewing the situation with is worth examining and
probably at the root of your concerns.>>
Michelle, SF East Bay
Mommy to Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>As for what he would be giving up - well, at this point a few hours a week sitting around the house with his dad doing nothing. And while I totally see the value in doing nothing, they get plenty of down time together, so I really think preschool might be nice for him. He's a very social kid and would enjoy a few extra hours a week with other people. He gets bored of me and Dan>>>>>>>>Why can't his dad get out of the house with him more often? It wouldn't be any harder to go somewhere else than to go to preschool. I don't need to know all your family's details, but shouldn't doing things with the child be part of the job description for any parent?
I signed my first child up for activities at the YMCA at a very young age. Dh and I took turns taking her to a toddler gymnastics and to swimming lessons. I also signed up for parent/toddler classes through the local community college, though these were in actuality mother/child, not father/child.
The major benefit to these classes for me was getting out of the house and meeting other parents. One of those parents is still a very good friend. My child benefited by having a happier mother and having the opportunity to play with other children. I do think that is more of an issue when there is only one child - no built in playmates at home.
I'm not suggesting that your son needs to be in classes, but that there are innumerable places to go with kids where he can interact with other kids and where other parents will be too. Parks, children's museums, even McDonalds playland. Check out your city's parks and rec department or local orgs like YMCA.
By the time my second child came along, we had more friends with kids and I had become involved with La Leche League, then a local homeschool group. At that point, *socialization* was no longer an issue :-)
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/03 1:34:57 PM, nellebelle@... writes:
<< I'm not suggesting that your son needs to be in classes, but that there
are innumerable places to go with kids where he can interact with other kids and
where other parents will be too. Parks, children's museums, even McDonalds
playland. Check out your city's parks and rec department or local orgs like
YMCA.
Feeding ducks.
Friendly, stimulating, relationship-building.
Sandra
<< I'm not suggesting that your son needs to be in classes, but that there
are innumerable places to go with kids where he can interact with other kids and
where other parents will be too. Parks, children's museums, even McDonalds
playland. Check out your city's parks and rec department or local orgs like
YMCA.
>>Walking around the mall.
Feeding ducks.
Friendly, stimulating, relationship-building.
Sandra
Mary
From: "Michelle~ms65442" <ms65442@...>
<<This is what I'm looking for. Why do you think unschooling is better?>>
'
Again, I only know what I have read about the Sudbury schools. IF the school
would be the same as unschooling at it's best. The children chose what to do
and when, it still to me wouldn't be the same as being home. A school still
has only so many resources available there. The children for the most part
stay there and there is a time limit and schedule as to being there.
At home, if we hit a snag with what to do, we can leave. If something
interests us that isn't at home, we can leave. If it's midnight and we want
to do have fun with something, we can. So there's nothing to make us stay
here, nothing to keep us away and no time limit when to do it all.
Plus, and this is a big one. Here, we have family. We have brothers and
sisters and friends here or coming as much as we want. We enjoy each other a
lot. When the children have the need to go elsewhere or be with other kids,
we do. When they don't, there is no one to tell us they have to.
I don't believe that all children at a young age "need" to have
socialization as far as being around other kids. Sometimes it's confusing,
sometimes it's frustrating and sometimes it's great. If it's not forced,
than I don't have to worry about the confusing, frustrating part. I get just
the great part. Because when it's not wanted or needed or enjoyed, we don't
have to do it. And I can tailor that to each child's needs. And so far, my
children don't need or even want that every day. There may come a time when
they do. Tara does, but the younger 3 don't. So I wouldn't send them to be
with other kids 5 days a week when that's not what they want. At the same
time, they aren't in the house every single day either. Being out and about
IS socializing without being stuck in a room with the same kids every day.
I guess plain and simple, I like the come and go as we please, and I like
the idea of each day being different depending on who needs or wants what.
School just can't do that. Not even a Sudbury.
Mary B
<<This is what I'm looking for. Why do you think unschooling is better?>>
'
Again, I only know what I have read about the Sudbury schools. IF the school
would be the same as unschooling at it's best. The children chose what to do
and when, it still to me wouldn't be the same as being home. A school still
has only so many resources available there. The children for the most part
stay there and there is a time limit and schedule as to being there.
At home, if we hit a snag with what to do, we can leave. If something
interests us that isn't at home, we can leave. If it's midnight and we want
to do have fun with something, we can. So there's nothing to make us stay
here, nothing to keep us away and no time limit when to do it all.
Plus, and this is a big one. Here, we have family. We have brothers and
sisters and friends here or coming as much as we want. We enjoy each other a
lot. When the children have the need to go elsewhere or be with other kids,
we do. When they don't, there is no one to tell us they have to.
I don't believe that all children at a young age "need" to have
socialization as far as being around other kids. Sometimes it's confusing,
sometimes it's frustrating and sometimes it's great. If it's not forced,
than I don't have to worry about the confusing, frustrating part. I get just
the great part. Because when it's not wanted or needed or enjoyed, we don't
have to do it. And I can tailor that to each child's needs. And so far, my
children don't need or even want that every day. There may come a time when
they do. Tara does, but the younger 3 don't. So I wouldn't send them to be
with other kids 5 days a week when that's not what they want. At the same
time, they aren't in the house every single day either. Being out and about
IS socializing without being stuck in a room with the same kids every day.
I guess plain and simple, I like the come and go as we please, and I like
the idea of each day being different depending on who needs or wants what.
School just can't do that. Not even a Sudbury.
Mary B
Michelle~ms65442
But it would be harder to go somewhere else, because he’d have to THINK
of somewhere else to go. Preschool is easy – he goes to the same place,
drops Rory off and then even gets a few hours to himself. I could plan
it all out for them (Monday = library, Wednesday = park etc.) but that
would be too controlling and not well received.
I agree that doing things with the child is part of the job description
for any parent, but I can’t fight what is. And the fact is that Dan
isn’t terribly adventurous, doesn’t have the knowledge/drive/ability to
research and seek out new things to do and prefers going to his sister’s
house and the local park and that’s it. On the weekend I can
orchestrate some place for us to go that’s new and different, but I
don’t have control over the weekdays.
Which brings me back to my original quandary. Since this is the way it
is (and I’m hoping it will improve over time, but I’m not betting on it)
I’m wondering if preschool would be a nice diversion for Rory.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: nellebelle [mailto:nellebelle@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<<Why can't his dad get out of the house with him more often? It
wouldn't be any harder to go somewhere else than to go to preschool. I
don't need to know all your family's details, but shouldn't doing things
with the child be part of the job description for any parent?>>
of somewhere else to go. Preschool is easy – he goes to the same place,
drops Rory off and then even gets a few hours to himself. I could plan
it all out for them (Monday = library, Wednesday = park etc.) but that
would be too controlling and not well received.
I agree that doing things with the child is part of the job description
for any parent, but I can’t fight what is. And the fact is that Dan
isn’t terribly adventurous, doesn’t have the knowledge/drive/ability to
research and seek out new things to do and prefers going to his sister’s
house and the local park and that’s it. On the weekend I can
orchestrate some place for us to go that’s new and different, but I
don’t have control over the weekdays.
Which brings me back to my original quandary. Since this is the way it
is (and I’m hoping it will improve over time, but I’m not betting on it)
I’m wondering if preschool would be a nice diversion for Rory.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: nellebelle [mailto:nellebelle@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<<Why can't his dad get out of the house with him more often? It
wouldn't be any harder to go somewhere else than to go to preschool. I
don't need to know all your family's details, but shouldn't doing things
with the child be part of the job description for any parent?>>
Pamela Sorooshian
Is this a 1 year old we're talking about?
-pam
-pam
On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 08:40 PM, Michelle~ms65442 wrote:
>
> Which brings me back to my original quandary. Since this is the way it
> is (and I’m hoping it will improve over time, but I’m not betting on
> it)
> I’m wondering if preschool would be a nice diversion for Rory.
Betsy
**In my case my daughter really wanted to go because her best
homeschooling friend started to go there. Her friend went because she
is highly social, apparently needing to be with other kids daily and all
day. Her mom, who is a good friend of mine, always said it would be
really hard to provide all the social time as a homeschooler. **
Hi, Kristin --
I can relate to this. A dear friend of mine has a very social son (my
son's best friend) and she almost put him in the Santa Clara Sudbury
school two years ago. For various reasons she didn't ,which was a
relief to me, as we could see them more often.
Betsy
**In the south bay there are park days on Mondays, in Sunnyvale. I
would imagine in Michelle's area there are many possibilities too.**
I think I mixed the two of you up in my mind. Sorry.
homeschooling friend started to go there. Her friend went because she
is highly social, apparently needing to be with other kids daily and all
day. Her mom, who is a good friend of mine, always said it would be
really hard to provide all the social time as a homeschooler. **
Hi, Kristin --
I can relate to this. A dear friend of mine has a very social son (my
son's best friend) and she almost put him in the Santa Clara Sudbury
school two years ago. For various reasons she didn't ,which was a
relief to me, as we could see them more often.
Betsy
**In the south bay there are park days on Mondays, in Sunnyvale. I
would imagine in Michelle's area there are many possibilities too.**
I think I mixed the two of you up in my mind. Sorry.
nellebelle
>>>>>Which brings me back to my original quandary. Since this is the way itis (and I’m hoping it will improve over time, but I’m not betting on it)
I’m wondering if preschool would be a nice diversion for Rory.>>>>>
If your primary goal is diversion for your son, a once-a-week regularly
scheduled activity would probably be enough, especially if his dad does take
him to the park and to his aunt's. I find that my kids really benefit from
having days where we don't have to go anywhere.
Not that preschool is necessarily negative. I did a co-op preschool for
about 1/2 a year and was happy with it (although at the time I didn't know
about unschooling and wasn't yet planning to even homeschool).
Except for opening and closing activates, the children were allowed to do
whatever they wanted while there. There were different areas (art, picture
books, large motor, dress up, etc.) and the teacher stressed that a child
should be able to spend their time as they wished, even if they chose to do
the same thing week after week. Two parents were required to stay as
helpers each time, but parents were always allowed to stay even when it
wasn't their turn. My dd always wanted me to stay.
However, preschool is still "school", as compared to other activities that a
child could do. If you are attracted to unschooling, it might be easier in
the long run to stay out of school during the years when children aren't
required to be there.
I can only imagine that the SF area has dozens of places that offer
regularly scheduled activities especially for preschool age children. For
instance, our children's museum always offers special art activities for
preschoolers on a certain day of the week. Maybe you could do some research
then OFFER Dan a list of some that you think he and Rory might enjoy
together.
But, I don't think that a young child necessarily NEEDS to have those sorts
of activities. It depends on the child and what else is happening in their
family's life. Accompanying parents out and about on errands, with trips to
the park and an occasional play date may be enough for him for now.
Mary Ellen
Mary
From: "Michelle~ms65442" <ms65442@...>
<<Which brings me back to my original quandary. Since this is the way it
is (and I’m hoping it will improve over time, but I’m not betting on it)
I’m wondering if preschool would be a nice diversion for Rory.>>
I get the impression that you are already set on preschool. Correct me if
I'm wrong.
Instead of thinking about what your husband will do for fun for your son,
how about what your husband likes to do out instead. What are his interests
that he can take along the little one and do too? There has to be something.
Mary B
<<Which brings me back to my original quandary. Since this is the way it
is (and I’m hoping it will improve over time, but I’m not betting on it)
I’m wondering if preschool would be a nice diversion for Rory.>>
I get the impression that you are already set on preschool. Correct me if
I'm wrong.
Instead of thinking about what your husband will do for fun for your son,
how about what your husband likes to do out instead. What are his interests
that he can take along the little one and do too? There has to be something.
Mary B
Mark & Kristin Shields
Michelle,
I was thinking about this too. Your son is only 14 months right now, and I'm assuming he is your first? Perhaps your husband will get more into doing things and going places as your son gets older. Is your husband interested sports, outdoor activities, household repairs, wood working? All those things are fascinating to little kids. My son absolutely loves to follow my husband around and talk about the tools he uses and tries to understand how things work. Just throwing a ball around at the park can lead to meeting other kids and parents. I just can't believe he won't find any interesting things to do with your son as he gets older. A three or four year old is vastly different from a 14 month old. As your son starts talking more and more won't he want to engage with him more? It also might be good to meet some homeschoolers in your area so that you can start to build relationships now while your son is little. I found that it helped me immensely as a SAHM to have a community of like minded moms to get together with every week.
Just some thoughts, Kristin
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary [SMTP:mummy124@...]
Instead of thinking about what your husband will do for fun for your son,
how about what your husband likes to do out instead. What are his interests
that he can take along the little one and do too? There has to be something.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was thinking about this too. Your son is only 14 months right now, and I'm assuming he is your first? Perhaps your husband will get more into doing things and going places as your son gets older. Is your husband interested sports, outdoor activities, household repairs, wood working? All those things are fascinating to little kids. My son absolutely loves to follow my husband around and talk about the tools he uses and tries to understand how things work. Just throwing a ball around at the park can lead to meeting other kids and parents. I just can't believe he won't find any interesting things to do with your son as he gets older. A three or four year old is vastly different from a 14 month old. As your son starts talking more and more won't he want to engage with him more? It also might be good to meet some homeschoolers in your area so that you can start to build relationships now while your son is little. I found that it helped me immensely as a SAHM to have a community of like minded moms to get together with every week.
Just some thoughts, Kristin
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary [SMTP:mummy124@...]
Instead of thinking about what your husband will do for fun for your son,
how about what your husband likes to do out instead. What are his interests
that he can take along the little one and do too? There has to be something.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mark & Kristin Shields
I can understand your relief, we had a hard time when my daughter's friend started going to school because all her other friends were going to traditional school and so incredibly busy in the afternoons. It's hard to find time to see other kids unless they happen to live in your neighborhood. We also kind of lived out in the boonies, so it was a haul to get to friend's houses.
Kristin
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy [SMTP:ecsamhill@...]
I can relate to this. A dear friend of mine has a very social son (my
son's best friend) and she almost put him in the Santa Clara Sudbury
school two years ago. For various reasons she didn't ,which was a
relief to me, as we could see them more often.
Betsy
**In the south bay there are park days on Mondays, in Sunnyvale. I
would imagine in Michelle's area there are many possibilities too.**
I think I mixed the two of you up in my mind. Sorry.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristin
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy [SMTP:ecsamhill@...]
I can relate to this. A dear friend of mine has a very social son (my
son's best friend) and she almost put him in the Santa Clara Sudbury
school two years ago. For various reasons she didn't ,which was a
relief to me, as we could see them more often.
Betsy
**In the south bay there are park days on Mondays, in Sunnyvale. I
would imagine in Michelle's area there are many possibilities too.**
I think I mixed the two of you up in my mind. Sorry.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 08/07/2003 22:31:05 Pacific Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
when he was Rory' s age, he felt safest dealing with him at home, or in a few
very familiar situations. Ken is a quiet person, and had a bit of a hard time
adjusting to having a child, so when he needed to care for Tommy, he did so at
home because that was what he( husband) could cope with. As son gets older,
husband now branches out and tries new stuff with him , going places and doing
things.It worked well for ds, and they formed a good relationship that way.
Is it possible that may be a partial factor for your partner! I can't
remember that name of the person who wrote the original post asking about preschool
etc.
Nancy in BC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
> Instead of thinking about what your husband will do for fun for your son,Good questions, Mary. My husband was terrified to take my son out anywhere
> how about what your husband likes to do out instead. What are his interests
when he was Rory' s age, he felt safest dealing with him at home, or in a few
very familiar situations. Ken is a quiet person, and had a bit of a hard time
adjusting to having a child, so when he needed to care for Tommy, he did so at
home because that was what he( husband) could cope with. As son gets older,
husband now branches out and tries new stuff with him , going places and doing
things.It worked well for ds, and they formed a good relationship that way.
Is it possible that may be a partial factor for your partner! I can't
remember that name of the person who wrote the original post asking about preschool
etc.
Nancy in BC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle~ms65442
I think diversion was a bad choice of wording on my part, (sounds like I
want to just keep him occupied with something, anything), but I think
you understand what I was trying to say.
Offering a list is a good idea. Approaching it as, "Hey, if you guys
get bored and want to get out of the house, here's some cool stuff you
might enjoy," is a lot better than, "Here are the activities you need to
expose our son to," which would undermine his parenting.
I am attracted to unschooling, and I do agree that keeping him out
school while he doesn't have to be in it would be the best thing if we
ultimately decide to go that route. Once we're in that school routine,
I imagine it's a much harder transition for everyone to switch back.
I guess what's brought this all up is that Rory seems bored lately and
he's much happier when he's out and about. Preschool was the first
thing that came to mind for the future.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: nellebelle [mailto:nellebelle@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<< Maybe you could do some research
then OFFER Dan a list of some that you think he and Rory might enjoy
together.
But, I don't think that a young child necessarily NEEDS to have those
sorts
of activities. It depends on the child and what else is happening in
their
family's life. Accompanying parents out and about on errands, with
trips to
the park and an occasional play date may be enough for him for now.>>
want to just keep him occupied with something, anything), but I think
you understand what I was trying to say.
Offering a list is a good idea. Approaching it as, "Hey, if you guys
get bored and want to get out of the house, here's some cool stuff you
might enjoy," is a lot better than, "Here are the activities you need to
expose our son to," which would undermine his parenting.
I am attracted to unschooling, and I do agree that keeping him out
school while he doesn't have to be in it would be the best thing if we
ultimately decide to go that route. Once we're in that school routine,
I imagine it's a much harder transition for everyone to switch back.
I guess what's brought this all up is that Rory seems bored lately and
he's much happier when he's out and about. Preschool was the first
thing that came to mind for the future.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: nellebelle [mailto:nellebelle@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<< Maybe you could do some research
then OFFER Dan a list of some that you think he and Rory might enjoy
together.
But, I don't think that a young child necessarily NEEDS to have those
sorts
of activities. It depends on the child and what else is happening in
their
family's life. Accompanying parents out and about on errands, with
trips to
the park and an occasional play date may be enough for him for now.>>
Michelle~ms65442
I'm not already set on preschool. I'm posting my reasons for
considering preschool and looking for other's thoughts/suggestions for
alternatives, given our situation. I'm still stuck "in the box" in my
thinking at times, and was hoping for (and am getting) some really great
insights here that I wasn't able to come to on my own.
Dan doesn't have too many interests. I think when Rory is older they
will enjoy sports together. He's a good cook and seems to enjoy
cooking. That's about it really. Dan is kind of in limbo - long story
short, he never really had to opportunity to discover his own interest
and passions and has just started to "do" things other than watch TV and
play video games. He was kind of in the deschooling thing for the last
2 years or so it seems - sitting around, vegging out and seemingly doing
nothing. But lately he's starting to blossom a little bit - I'm seeing
sparks of interest in him that I never saw before, and I'm hoping he'll
act on them. Hopefully he and Rory can discover things together.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary [mailto:mummy124@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<<I get the impression that you are already set on preschool. Correct me
if
I'm wrong.
Instead of thinking about what your husband will do for fun for your
son,
how about what your husband likes to do out instead. What are his
interests
that he can take along the little one and do too? There has to be
something.>>
considering preschool and looking for other's thoughts/suggestions for
alternatives, given our situation. I'm still stuck "in the box" in my
thinking at times, and was hoping for (and am getting) some really great
insights here that I wasn't able to come to on my own.
Dan doesn't have too many interests. I think when Rory is older they
will enjoy sports together. He's a good cook and seems to enjoy
cooking. That's about it really. Dan is kind of in limbo - long story
short, he never really had to opportunity to discover his own interest
and passions and has just started to "do" things other than watch TV and
play video games. He was kind of in the deschooling thing for the last
2 years or so it seems - sitting around, vegging out and seemingly doing
nothing. But lately he's starting to blossom a little bit - I'm seeing
sparks of interest in him that I never saw before, and I'm hoping he'll
act on them. Hopefully he and Rory can discover things together.
Michelle, SF Bay Area
Mommy to the bright-eyed Rory Daniel, 5.3.02
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary [mailto:mummy124@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 10:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-Discussion] Sudbury schools
<<I get the impression that you are already set on preschool. Correct me
if
I'm wrong.
Instead of thinking about what your husband will do for fun for your
son,
how about what your husband likes to do out instead. What are his
interests
that he can take along the little one and do too? There has to be
something.>>