knowing what is going on in schools
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/17/02 10:01:37 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< While unschoolers certainly are not doing "school at home", I do think
that knowledge is power, and being aware of what is going on in the
schools is a good idea. >>
I couldn't disagree more.
I think the less you think about school, the better. Including trying to
match your portfolio to what is being taught at the different years.
Most of the people here are aware of exactly what a "scope and sequence" is.
Beyond that, I don't see how knowledge of what is being taught in the schools
is power for an unschooler.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< While unschoolers certainly are not doing "school at home", I do think
that knowledge is power, and being aware of what is going on in the
schools is a good idea. >>
I couldn't disagree more.
I think the less you think about school, the better. Including trying to
match your portfolio to what is being taught at the different years.
Most of the people here are aware of exactly what a "scope and sequence" is.
Beyond that, I don't see how knowledge of what is being taught in the schools
is power for an unschooler.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/17/02 1:07:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> I couldn't disagree more.I agree. When I left schooling behind, I left schooling behind.
> I think the less you think about school, the better. Including trying to
> match your portfolio to what is being taught at the different years.
> Most of the people here are aware of exactly what a "scope and sequence"
> is.
> Beyond that, I don't see how knowledge of what is being taught in the
> schools
> is power for an unschooler.
>
> Ren
>
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/17/02 11:07:04 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< Most of the people here are aware of exactly what a "scope and sequence"
is.
Beyond that, I don't see how knowledge of what is being taught in the schools
is power for an unschooler. >>
I agree with ren on this.
The less the mom cares to look over her shoulder at what they would be doing
if they were in school, the better she will see what HER children ARE doing,
not what they're not.
All that energy could be put into being with her kids.
AND what's offered at the school isn't necessarily what's learned. And in
secondary situations with electives, just because physics is offered at the
school doesn't mean it's required.
The world book site has general lists, and that can give the mom a clue if
she wants one without actually dealing with or living in the shadow of the
neighborhood school.
http://www2.worldbook.com/parents/course_study_curr6.asp
<< Most of the people here are aware of exactly what a "scope and sequence"
is.
Beyond that, I don't see how knowledge of what is being taught in the schools
is power for an unschooler. >>
I agree with ren on this.
The less the mom cares to look over her shoulder at what they would be doing
if they were in school, the better she will see what HER children ARE doing,
not what they're not.
All that energy could be put into being with her kids.
AND what's offered at the school isn't necessarily what's learned. And in
secondary situations with electives, just because physics is offered at the
school doesn't mean it's required.
The world book site has general lists, and that can give the mom a clue if
she wants one without actually dealing with or living in the shadow of the
neighborhood school.
http://www2.worldbook.com/parents/course_study_curr6.asp
susan marie
I didn't say match our portfolio to the scope and sequence at schools -
that wasn't what I meant at all. But we still have to go in and have our
portfolio reviewed, and we can't pretend that the schools don't exist,
or that there aren't ever any efforts to control or judge homeschoolers.
There are discussions here all the time about what goes on in public
schools. Why is it bad to pay attention? Paying attention or being aware
does not mean imitating or following. "being aware" was meant as a
general statement, sometimes being aware is simply nothing more than
knowing how bad it is. It wasn't meant as a comparison or standard -
sorry if it came out that way.
peace,
Susan
that wasn't what I meant at all. But we still have to go in and have our
portfolio reviewed, and we can't pretend that the schools don't exist,
or that there aren't ever any efforts to control or judge homeschoolers.
There are discussions here all the time about what goes on in public
schools. Why is it bad to pay attention? Paying attention or being aware
does not mean imitating or following. "being aware" was meant as a
general statement, sometimes being aware is simply nothing more than
knowing how bad it is. It wasn't meant as a comparison or standard -
sorry if it came out that way.
peace,
Susan
On Tuesday, December 17, 2002, at 01:04 PM, starsuncloud@... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/17/02 10:01:37 AM Central Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << While unschoolers certainly are not doing "school at home", I do
> think
> that knowledge is power, and being aware of what is going on in the
> schools is a good idea. >>
>
> I couldn't disagree more.
> I think the less you think about school, the better. Including trying to
> match your portfolio to what is being taught at the different years.
> Most of the people here are aware of exactly what a "scope and
> sequence" is.
> Beyond that, I don't see how knowledge of what is being taught in the
> schools
> is power for an unschooler.
>
> Ren
> "Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
> ~Arnold Lobel
> Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the
> list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address
> an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
peace,
Susan
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead
"All we are saying is give peace a chance."
- John Lennon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 9:18:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
scribblers2@... writes:
some level in order to continue homeschooling our children. Unless we go
completely undergroung, that is . We have to follow the laws of our state
whether we agree to them or not in order to insure they do not infringe upon
us even farther. ( IE, we dont follow the laws, and we are deemed unfit and
lose our children) You have to know what is required of you as a
homeschooler to comply, even if it is very loosely, with the laws of your
state. Being informed and aware is just a tool to arm yourself against
losing the "freedoms" (yes, in quotes, because they are not real freedoms)
of homeschooling your children.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
scribblers2@... writes:
> I didn't say match our portfolio to the scope and sequence at schools -I agree, Susan. It's just a fact of life that we all have to "comply" on
> that wasn't what I meant at all. But we still have to go in and have our
> portfolio reviewed, and we can't pretend that the schools don't exist,
> or that there aren't ever any efforts to control or judge homeschoolers.
>
some level in order to continue homeschooling our children. Unless we go
completely undergroung, that is . We have to follow the laws of our state
whether we agree to them or not in order to insure they do not infringe upon
us even farther. ( IE, we dont follow the laws, and we are deemed unfit and
lose our children) You have to know what is required of you as a
homeschooler to comply, even if it is very loosely, with the laws of your
state. Being informed and aware is just a tool to arm yourself against
losing the "freedoms" (yes, in quotes, because they are not real freedoms)
of homeschooling your children.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gruvystarchild <[email protected]>
"I agree, Susan. It's just a fact of life that we all have
to "comply" on
some level in order to continue homeschooling our children. Unless we
go
completely undergroung, that is . "
This isn't true for everyone you know.
Some states actually make it possible for you to homeschool legally
and completely ignore any scope and sequence or what is going on in
the schools.
And even where it is a bit more restrictive, there are creative ways
to get around all that without totally going underground.
The less I have school as part of our lives, the better.
If I'm nervously peering over my shoulder (this is not literal, just
analagous) then unschooling won't be unfolding the same way.
I know this from personal experience, believe me.
When we worried about turning a portfolio in, I did treat the kids
differently.
to "comply" on
some level in order to continue homeschooling our children. Unless we
go
completely undergroung, that is . "
This isn't true for everyone you know.
Some states actually make it possible for you to homeschool legally
and completely ignore any scope and sequence or what is going on in
the schools.
And even where it is a bit more restrictive, there are creative ways
to get around all that without totally going underground.
The less I have school as part of our lives, the better.
If I'm nervously peering over my shoulder (this is not literal, just
analagous) then unschooling won't be unfolding the same way.
I know this from personal experience, believe me.
When we worried about turning a portfolio in, I did treat the kids
differently.
Betsy
**
I agree, Susan. It's just a fact of life that we all have to "comply"
on
some level in order to continue homeschooling our children.**
Right. It's just that people on the list are in different states and
different countries and may sometimes make assumptions based on their
own circumstances. "Be like me" or "Do it my way" don't always cut it
when we are covered by different laws. Some people on the list have
more that they have to comply with than others. It can be hard to
remember that we swim in different waters.
In California we don't do any testing or reporting. (So far, but the
state may come after us some year with new regulation, and we have to
keep aware of that.)
I look at the California state learning standards fairly frequently, but
that's just because my husband is a second year teacher, and he just
switched from teaching 6th grade to 9th. I have to say that it's a good
thing that there ARE standards because otherwise the amount of
orientation the teacher gets sometimes is "There are no books. Start
teaching." At least the standards give him a clue where to start.)
(I seem to have drifted off topic. Sorry.)
Betsy
I agree, Susan. It's just a fact of life that we all have to "comply"
on
some level in order to continue homeschooling our children.**
Right. It's just that people on the list are in different states and
different countries and may sometimes make assumptions based on their
own circumstances. "Be like me" or "Do it my way" don't always cut it
when we are covered by different laws. Some people on the list have
more that they have to comply with than others. It can be hard to
remember that we swim in different waters.
In California we don't do any testing or reporting. (So far, but the
state may come after us some year with new regulation, and we have to
keep aware of that.)
I look at the California state learning standards fairly frequently, but
that's just because my husband is a second year teacher, and he just
switched from teaching 6th grade to 9th. I have to say that it's a good
thing that there ARE standards because otherwise the amount of
orientation the teacher gets sometimes is "There are no books. Start
teaching." At least the standards give him a clue where to start.)
(I seem to have drifted off topic. Sorry.)
Betsy
[email protected]
Susan,
Why don't you use an umbrella school?
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why don't you use an umbrella school?
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 10:04:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
token, some states are much more restictive. Personally, Im very thankful
that my state has very few regs and they are "vague and broad".. I
sympathize with those who happen to live in a state that does require
portfolios, but if I had to do one, I would.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Some states actually make it possible for you to homeschool legallyYes, fortunately, some states are much less restrictive. but, by the same
> and completely ignore any scope and sequence or what is going on in
> the schools.
>
token, some states are much more restictive. Personally, Im very thankful
that my state has very few regs and they are "vague and broad".. I
sympathize with those who happen to live in a state that does require
portfolios, but if I had to do one, I would.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 9:28:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:
very well be breaking them, do you always drive the speed limit? Do you
follow all driving laws to the letter? Probably not.
Following the laws doesn't mean you are following them to the letter or
completely disregarding them there is a HUGE grey area.
Why not "make it up"? Look at New York's laws, many people use a very very
vague "curriculum" that basically says We l learn by doing what we want.
Testing in some states can be done at home, who KNOWS who actually filled out
the test.
Laws are *interpreted*. That means that the person reading them, say a judge,
can interpret as she understands them. So you can NEVER know for sure, that
you are in compliance with HS regs. If they REALLY want to take your kids
away, just ONE typo can give the excuse.
I'm not saying that one should flaunt what might be perceived as illegal, but
definately fly below the government's radar.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> We have to follow the laws of our stateWhy? Do you follow ALL the laws of your state? What about sex laws? You may
> whether we agree to them or not in order to insure they do not infringe
> upon
> us even farther.
very well be breaking them, do you always drive the speed limit? Do you
follow all driving laws to the letter? Probably not.
Following the laws doesn't mean you are following them to the letter or
completely disregarding them there is a HUGE grey area.
Why not "make it up"? Look at New York's laws, many people use a very very
vague "curriculum" that basically says We l learn by doing what we want.
Testing in some states can be done at home, who KNOWS who actually filled out
the test.
Laws are *interpreted*. That means that the person reading them, say a judge,
can interpret as she understands them. So you can NEVER know for sure, that
you are in compliance with HS regs. If they REALLY want to take your kids
away, just ONE typo can give the excuse.
I'm not saying that one should flaunt what might be perceived as illegal, but
definately fly below the government's radar.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 10:05:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
;o)
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> This isn't true for everyone you know.Like Maryland!
> Some states actually make it possible for you to homeschool legally
> and completely ignore any scope and sequence or what is going on in
> the schools.
>
;o)
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 10:05:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
enabled them to trust themselves.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> I know this from personal experience, believe me.I did too and none of that different treatment was helpful, healthy or
> When we worried about turning a portfolio in, I did treat the kids
> differently.
>
>
>
>
enabled them to trust themselves.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 11:01:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:
that is an extreme case, but unfortunately,it does happen. Even here in NC
where the laws are very lax concerning homeschooling. And, this is not
worth arguing over to me.. So I wont engage in any more debate over this
issue. ( although the last time I said I wouldnt get into defensive mode, I
had to eat crow for a week, and its still backing up on me.. ...Belch.. )
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Earthmomma67@... writes:
> What about sex laws? You mayBreaking those laws does not result in possibly losing my children. I know
> very well be breaking them, do you always drive the speed limit? Do you
> follow all driving laws to the letter
that is an extreme case, but unfortunately,it does happen. Even here in NC
where the laws are very lax concerning homeschooling. And, this is not
worth arguing over to me.. So I wont engage in any more debate over this
issue. ( although the last time I said I wouldnt get into defensive mode, I
had to eat crow for a week, and its still backing up on me.. ...Belch.. )
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85 <[email protected]>
I honestly don't let making a portfolio affect what I do with my
children. I push worries about portfolios out of my head until a few
days before we're evaluated (we have to do that too). At that point,
I get a huge headache and spend a day or two doing nothing but
putting a portfolio together. On those days I sit with my calendar
and make collages of all the "educational" places we've visited and
pull out all the workbooks and funbooks and start photocopying. You
wouldn't want to be around me on those two days because I'm so
grouchy. You also don't want to mention compulsory attendance laws to
me on those days. ;) But it's only 2 days out of the year--better
than worrying about it all year long I guess.
Sheila
children. I push worries about portfolios out of my head until a few
days before we're evaluated (we have to do that too). At that point,
I get a huge headache and spend a day or two doing nothing but
putting a portfolio together. On those days I sit with my calendar
and make collages of all the "educational" places we've visited and
pull out all the workbooks and funbooks and start photocopying. You
wouldn't want to be around me on those two days because I'm so
grouchy. You also don't want to mention compulsory attendance laws to
me on those days. ;) But it's only 2 days out of the year--better
than worrying about it all year long I guess.
Sheila
--- In [email protected], Earthmomma67@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/18/02 10:05:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> starsuncloud@c... writes:
>
> > I know this from personal experience, believe me.
> > When we worried about turning a portfolio in, I did treat the
kids
> > differently.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> I did too and none of that different treatment was helpful, healthy
or
> enabled them to trust themselves.
> Elissa
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 11:21:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
grlynbl@... writes:
discuss it though, I do because it may be helpful to others.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
grlynbl@... writes:
> And, this is notI didn't realize we were arguing! That's too bad that you don't want to
> worth arguing over to me.. So I wont engage in any more debate over this
> issue.
discuss it though, I do because it may be helpful to others.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I decided years ago that when I spoke at conferences I would talk about how
children learn naturally, and what can help create an environment and a
relationship which will best help that learning unfold and grow, without
regard for the laws in the place in which I was speaking.
There are people who are involved politically in unschooling, and there are
discussion boards and lists which are politically focussed, but I stay away
from them completely. I'm grateful that there are people who ARE interested
in politics and willing to fight those fights, but I'm more interested in
cognition and child development and what's optimal in the uncharted territory
of treating children as people instead of as inferior grubs who need to
prepare for their eventual real lives.
If a three year old has a real life, if a ten year old is a person, then
there are things they need to help them grow.
Rather than change the definition of unschooling, or limit the scope of our
discussions, to fit the legal ramifications of Pennsylvania or Kansas or New
Zealand, I would rather discuss unschooling as a pure endeavor, and let
people worry about how to make it work in their place of residence.
There are state discussion lists already in place for local details. Since
this list was founded, the policy has been to send people to find state
details elsewhere. I really don't think we should say there is Ohio
unschooling and Texas unschooling. (Although here is an Ohio aid:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum)
IF someone really cared about gun laws and wanted to own guns and use them,
he might move out of Pennsylvania because of his beliefs and desires. If
someone really wanted to live near wildlife to observe birPeople make
decisions about where to live based on their priorities all the time.
If someone is in a state where they can't figure out a way to unschool and
still feel safe, they either need to not unschool, or they should move. But
we shouldn't have to compromise our discussions because one state or another
has one law or another.
Laws don't change the way natural learning works.
Sandra
children learn naturally, and what can help create an environment and a
relationship which will best help that learning unfold and grow, without
regard for the laws in the place in which I was speaking.
There are people who are involved politically in unschooling, and there are
discussion boards and lists which are politically focussed, but I stay away
from them completely. I'm grateful that there are people who ARE interested
in politics and willing to fight those fights, but I'm more interested in
cognition and child development and what's optimal in the uncharted territory
of treating children as people instead of as inferior grubs who need to
prepare for their eventual real lives.
If a three year old has a real life, if a ten year old is a person, then
there are things they need to help them grow.
Rather than change the definition of unschooling, or limit the scope of our
discussions, to fit the legal ramifications of Pennsylvania or Kansas or New
Zealand, I would rather discuss unschooling as a pure endeavor, and let
people worry about how to make it work in their place of residence.
There are state discussion lists already in place for local details. Since
this list was founded, the policy has been to send people to find state
details elsewhere. I really don't think we should say there is Ohio
unschooling and Texas unschooling. (Although here is an Ohio aid:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum)
IF someone really cared about gun laws and wanted to own guns and use them,
he might move out of Pennsylvania because of his beliefs and desires. If
someone really wanted to live near wildlife to observe birPeople make
decisions about where to live based on their priorities all the time.
If someone is in a state where they can't figure out a way to unschool and
still feel safe, they either need to not unschool, or they should move. But
we shouldn't have to compromise our discussions because one state or another
has one law or another.
Laws don't change the way natural learning works.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/2002 11:22:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
grlynbl@... writes:
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
grlynbl@... writes:
> . Even here in NCAnd NC seems difficult to me---even being in South C.
> where the laws are very lax concerning homeschooling.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 12:33:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
you around the laws.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Rather than change the definition of unschooling, or limit the scope of ourRight! That is what I was talking about. Make the laws work around YOU, not
> discussions, to fit the legal ramifications of Pennsylvania or Kansas or
> New
> Zealand, I would rather discuss unschooling as a pure endeavor, and let
> people worry about how to make it work in their place of residence.
>
>
you around the laws.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 12:27:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Earthmomma67@... writes:
continue sharing yours, but I have stated my thoughts, and therefore, I am
outta this discussion.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Earthmomma67@... writes:
> I didn't realize we were arguing! That's too bad that you don't want toWe have opposing viewpoints on the issue. You are more than welcome to
> discuss it though, I do because it may be helpful to others.
> Elissa
>
continue sharing yours, but I have stated my thoughts, and therefore, I am
outta this discussion.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 12:39:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
web site you have to remember that most of what is on the DNPE web site are
"recommendations". I think reading the web site makes it look intimidating.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> And NC seems difficult to meI live in NC and it really is a very "easy" state. If you are reading the
web site you have to remember that most of what is on the DNPE web site are
"recommendations". I think reading the web site makes it look intimidating.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85 <[email protected]>
I kind of agree with you. I don't think that someone should not
unschool a certain way because of the state's laws. You should find
the educational and parenting philosophy that you agree with it and
stick to your convictions. Getting around the law shouldn't affect
how you parent/edcuate. But it is something that many have to deal
with because of the educational choices they have made.
On the other hand, I don't see a discussion of how to get around a
state law any different than discussion of how to get around a
husband who isn't sure of unschooling or a relative who constantly
quizzes the kids.
Kind of like how a discussion of vaccinations might start out
discussing all the dangers of vaccinations but the natural flow of
conversation usually includes discussion on how to get around the
state law's vaccination requirements.
Sheila
unschool a certain way because of the state's laws. You should find
the educational and parenting philosophy that you agree with it and
stick to your convictions. Getting around the law shouldn't affect
how you parent/edcuate. But it is something that many have to deal
with because of the educational choices they have made.
On the other hand, I don't see a discussion of how to get around a
state law any different than discussion of how to get around a
husband who isn't sure of unschooling or a relative who constantly
quizzes the kids.
Kind of like how a discussion of vaccinations might start out
discussing all the dangers of vaccinations but the natural flow of
conversation usually includes discussion on how to get around the
state law's vaccination requirements.
Sheila
> Rather than change the definition of unschooling, or limit thescope of our
> discussions, to fit the legal ramifications of Pennsylvania orKansas or New
> Zealand, I would rather discuss unschooling as a pure endeavor,and let
> people worry about how to make it work in their place ofresidence.
>details. Since
> There are state discussion lists already in place for local
> this list was founded, the policy has been to send people to findstate
> details elsewhere. I really don't think we should say there isOhio
> unschooling and Texas unschooling. (Although here is an Ohio aid:use them,
> http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum)
>
> IF someone really cared about gun laws and wanted to own guns and
> he might move out of Pennsylvania because of his beliefs anddesires. If
> someone really wanted to live near wildlife to observe birPeoplemake
> decisions about where to live based on their priorities all thetime.
>unschool and
> If someone is in a state where they can't figure out a way to
> still feel safe, they either need to not unschool, or they shouldmove. But
> we shouldn't have to compromise our discussions because one stateor another
> has one law or another.
>
> Laws don't change the way natural learning works.
>
> Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 12:40:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
rather than the NCDNPE that gives folks more flack. The state regs are
pretty simple, but lots of school administration ( or other state
organizations) want to try to strong arm parents into thinking there is
"more" to the regs. For example, my sister told me just the other day that a
friend of hers homeschools her children. My sister (Karen) said.. " yeah,
she was telling me all about all the logs and records she has to keep" I
said, "Uhh, no, she doesnt" Karen said.. "well, she thinks she does. she
keeps records of everything.. Lessons plans, grades, work samples.. She said
she had to for the state" This girl is WRONG wrong wrong. There are no such
regs like that in NC. She has been misled by someone, probably a ps school
official or perhaps some curriculum salesperson. In this case, this girl
being aware of state regs would save her a lot of time and trouble.
MMMM Good crow.. :-) Im finding all sorts of ways to spice this bird up..
Teresa
OH, btw, Sandra, I do agree, this is not really a political forum... But I
think that just like parenting practices overlap and mesh into unschooling,
so does politics. There are many issues that just sort of cross over.
Actually, I am not a political person. My first response was in agreement
with someone who said they like to be aware of what is required for thier
portfolio. And, I'll hush.. for good.. SOMEBODY GET A GAG.!!.. No.. I guess
chinese handcuffs would be more appropiate.
T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> And NC seems difficult to me---even being in South C.Yeah, I have found, through experience, its the local public school system
>
> ~Kelly
>
rather than the NCDNPE that gives folks more flack. The state regs are
pretty simple, but lots of school administration ( or other state
organizations) want to try to strong arm parents into thinking there is
"more" to the regs. For example, my sister told me just the other day that a
friend of hers homeschools her children. My sister (Karen) said.. " yeah,
she was telling me all about all the logs and records she has to keep" I
said, "Uhh, no, she doesnt" Karen said.. "well, she thinks she does. she
keeps records of everything.. Lessons plans, grades, work samples.. She said
she had to for the state" This girl is WRONG wrong wrong. There are no such
regs like that in NC. She has been misled by someone, probably a ps school
official or perhaps some curriculum salesperson. In this case, this girl
being aware of state regs would save her a lot of time and trouble.
MMMM Good crow.. :-) Im finding all sorts of ways to spice this bird up..
Teresa
OH, btw, Sandra, I do agree, this is not really a political forum... But I
think that just like parenting practices overlap and mesh into unschooling,
so does politics. There are many issues that just sort of cross over.
Actually, I am not a political person. My first response was in agreement
with someone who said they like to be aware of what is required for thier
portfolio. And, I'll hush.. for good.. SOMEBODY GET A GAG.!!.. No.. I guess
chinese handcuffs would be more appropiate.
T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 10:06:17 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< . I
sympathize with those who happen to live in a state that does require
portfolios, but if I had to do one, I would >>
Yes BUT, is there a state in which the portfolio is the only option? I don't
think so.....'course in places like PA it's even worse.
Even with a portfolio review, there are ways to avoid trying to match what
the schools are doing.
And many people are unaware that most laws say that you only have to prove
the child is improving, NOT keep them anywhere at grade level.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< . I
sympathize with those who happen to live in a state that does require
portfolios, but if I had to do one, I would >>
Yes BUT, is there a state in which the portfolio is the only option? I don't
think so.....'course in places like PA it's even worse.
Even with a portfolio review, there are ways to avoid trying to match what
the schools are doing.
And many people are unaware that most laws say that you only have to prove
the child is improving, NOT keep them anywhere at grade level.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 11:59:23 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I didn't realize we were arguing! That's too bad that you don't want to
discuss it though, I do because it may be helpful to others. >>
Apparently any dissenting views are seen as arguement. That's too bad, it's
the only way to hash around ideas and learn of other options.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< I didn't realize we were arguing! That's too bad that you don't want to
discuss it though, I do because it may be helpful to others. >>
Apparently any dissenting views are seen as arguement. That's too bad, it's
the only way to hash around ideas and learn of other options.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 4:11:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:
should read the web site at least twice before they begin so they know what
are regulations and what are recommendations.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Karen said.. "well, she thinks she does. sheBut on the DNPE web site it recommends that you do this. I think people
> keeps records of everything.. Lessons plans, grades, work samples.. She
> said
> she had to for the state" This girl is WRONG wrong wrong.
should read the web site at least twice before they begin so they know what
are regulations and what are recommendations.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 3:02:42 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< > Laws don't change the way natural learning works. >>
Exactly. My conviction is about how to parent, and how children learn. If my
conviction was to follow the law first and foremost, then things could get
bad for my kids if there are more invasive laws put into place.
I think the priority should be rights, and if a law is unfair (which
compulsory schooling laws are) then the rights of my children come first.
I don't owe the government a damn thing, I owe my children everything.
So what it comes down to for me, is which is more important? The law, or my
rights as a parent/human being?
There is a saying, can't remember who to credit or the exact words but
something about "in a free society one has an obligation to break unjust
laws"....
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< > Laws don't change the way natural learning works. >>
Exactly. My conviction is about how to parent, and how children learn. If my
conviction was to follow the law first and foremost, then things could get
bad for my kids if there are more invasive laws put into place.
I think the priority should be rights, and if a law is unfair (which
compulsory schooling laws are) then the rights of my children come first.
I don't owe the government a damn thing, I owe my children everything.
So what it comes down to for me, is which is more important? The law, or my
rights as a parent/human being?
There is a saying, can't remember who to credit or the exact words but
something about "in a free society one has an obligation to break unjust
laws"....
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 4:17:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, genant2@...
writes:
inspection of the web site and further research into the regs would be
appropiate.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> But on the DNPE web site it recommends that you do this. I think peopleYou are right Pam, the "guidelines" are misleading. And yes, closer
> should read the web site at least twice before they begin so they know what
>
> are regulations and what are recommendations.
> Pam G.
>
inspection of the web site and further research into the regs would be
appropiate.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yol, Vishnu & Shanti
I agree with Sheila. I don't see why discussing this issue would *limit* the scope of other discussions. I actually think it is helpful to see how people handle legal issues in practical ways in different parts of the country and world. Legal issues are an important aspect of what we do as unschoolers. I don't see the need of *limiting* this discussion by dismissing its relevance. There is always the DELETE button, you know...
Yol
Blue Lotus Therapeutics
Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Yoga and Therapeutic Massage.
Asheville/Weaverville, NC
www.bluelotustherapeutics.com
Dhyanyoga Center of North Carolina
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga
Weaverville, NC
www.dyc-nc.org
***********************************
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. The world is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
-- Tao Te Ching
***********************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yol
> I kind of agree with you. I don't think that someone should not--
> unschool a certain way because of the state's laws. You should find
> the educational and parenting philosophy that you agree with it and
> stick to your convictions. Getting around the law shouldn't affect
> how you parent/edcuate. But it is something that many have to deal
> with because of the educational choices they have made.
>
> On the other hand, I don't see a discussion of how to get around a
> state law any different than discussion of how to get around a
> husband who isn't sure of unschooling or a relative who constantly
> quizzes the kids.
>
> Kind of like how a discussion of vaccinations might start out
> discussing all the dangers of vaccinations but the natural flow of
> conversation usually includes discussion on how to get around the
> state law's vaccination requirements.
>
> Sheila
>
> > Rather than change the definition of unschooling, or limit the
> scope of our
> > discussions, to fit the legal ramifications of Pennsylvania or
> Kansas or New
> > Zealand, I would rather discuss unschooling as a pure endeavor,
> and let
> > people worry about how to make it work in their place of
> residence.
> >
> > There are state discussion lists already in place for local
> details. Since
> > this list was founded, the policy has been to send people to find
> state
> > details elsewhere. I really don't think we should say there is
> Ohio
> > unschooling and Texas unschooling. (Although here is an Ohio aid:
> > http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum)
> >
> > IF someone really cared about gun laws and wanted to own guns and
> use them,
> > he might move out of Pennsylvania because of his beliefs and
> desires. If
> > someone really wanted to live near wildlife to observe birPeople
> make
> > decisions about where to live based on their priorities all the
> time.
> >
> > If someone is in a state where they can't figure out a way to
> unschool and
> > still feel safe, they either need to not unschool, or they should
> move. But
> > we shouldn't have to compromise our discussions because one state
> or another
> > has one law or another.
> >
> > Laws don't change the way natural learning works.
> >
> > Sandra
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:19:32 -0500
> From: "Shyrley" <shyrley.williams@...>
> Subject: Kids and Behaviour
>
> Looking for some advice on moderating a child's behaviour. My
> youngest has a temper (must be the red hair) and loses it quite
> often. When he does he will lash our at other kids if they approach
> him and adults too and call people who try and speak to him 'f****
> bastards'
> At home I've fiound the only thing that works is to ignore him until
> he comes out of the temper. He can't be reasoned with, or jollied
> out of it or even threatened (which I treid in the past). Punishment
> and consequences mean nothing while his temper lasts.
> When it has passed we've discussed it many times and he
> promises to try better in the future. None of this is a problem at
> home.
> While we're out this is a different matter. One friend tried to jolly
> him out of a temper and he called her a name and tried to hit her.
> He hit another friends dog when the dog tried to pinch his dinner.
> We are finding that we're not welcome anywhere which is affecting
> my other kids and me. I feel we're going to be alone, stuck in the
> house like social pariahs.
> My friends use time out and sending kids to their room which I
> don't agree with personally but in their own house I would never say
> anything. While I tell him that his behaviour isn't acceptable I'm
> obviously not going to beat him and I feel uncomfortable dicsiplining
> him in a way I would not do so at home. I really don't want to be
> friendless until he matures enough to stop, like the other two did.
> In some ways it is a cultural thing too, peope at home would have
> ignored the behaviour or laughed it off as a stage some kids go
> through.
>
> Any advice in how to deal with a stubborn 7 yo would be
> apreciated. Before I have to leave Virginia ;-)
>
> Shyrley
>
> "You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:15:22 +0000
> From: "Mary Bianco" <mummyone24@...>
> Subject: Re: Christmas gifts
>
> From: "mary krzyzanowski" <meembeam@...>
>
> <<This year we'll need to cover the big gifts with a sheet on
> Christmas Eve or my 2yods will open everything.>>
>
> Well this year the cat and the kitten were driving me crazy making their own
> little place under the tree. My velour tree skirt was covered in hair and I
> just couldn't keep it clean for more than an hour. So I cleaned it one last
> time, wrapped all the gifts and put them under the tree. Cats can't get to
> it now. I thought after my 2 year old started to ask to open them that it
> was a mistake. But she surprised me as usual and has been very good. No
> shaking or anything. She understands now that on Christmas she can open
> some. Of course she has no idea when that is so every day she asks. She also
> goes and shows everyone how we have Merry Christmas under the tree! Aren't
> kids just the best??!!!!
>
> Mary B
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:01:54 EST
> From: amycats2@...
> Subject: Re: LOTR and drool factor/list
>
> In a message dated 12/18/2002 3:59:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
>
> > Well... gross in the daylight of the real world isn't the same as
> > desireable on the last week of life with no considerations. Someone can be
> >
> > disgusting and still sexy.
> >
> > Sandra, now WAY off topic...
> >
>
> OK, now I need an example of someone both disgusting and sexy. I'm racking my
> brains.....
> Amy Kagey
> Christmas gifts:
> <A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">free shipping on Usborne Books!</A>
> and
> <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/amycats2/myhomepage/business.html">Santa Letters for Your Child!</A>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Blue Lotus Therapeutics
Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Yoga and Therapeutic Massage.
Asheville/Weaverville, NC
www.bluelotustherapeutics.com
Dhyanyoga Center of North Carolina
Meditation - Kundalini Maha Yoga
Weaverville, NC
www.dyc-nc.org
***********************************
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. The world is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
-- Tao Te Ching
***********************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/02 2:03:24 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< On the other hand, I don't see a discussion of how to get around a
state law any different than discussion of how to get around a
husband who isn't sure of unschooling or a relative who constantly
quizzes the kids. >>
But none of those considerations should cause us to compromise the ideas we
exchange. Just because someone has a husband who refuses to read anything
about unschooling doesn't mean we should stop recommending that dads should
learn about it too. Just because some people's relatives are similar;
similar.
If the list is going to qualify and water down information because of a law
or a detractor, the information will be of less value. If we wimp out to
make someone feel better because they can't REALLY unschool as they would
like to, that doesn't promote unschooling. It promotes wimping out.
That's a strong opinion, but where will the strong opinions be if they're no
longer allowed here?
Sandra
<< On the other hand, I don't see a discussion of how to get around a
state law any different than discussion of how to get around a
husband who isn't sure of unschooling or a relative who constantly
quizzes the kids. >>
But none of those considerations should cause us to compromise the ideas we
exchange. Just because someone has a husband who refuses to read anything
about unschooling doesn't mean we should stop recommending that dads should
learn about it too. Just because some people's relatives are similar;
similar.
If the list is going to qualify and water down information because of a law
or a detractor, the information will be of less value. If we wimp out to
make someone feel better because they can't REALLY unschool as they would
like to, that doesn't promote unschooling. It promotes wimping out.
That's a strong opinion, but where will the strong opinions be if they're no
longer allowed here?
Sandra
kayb85 <[email protected]>
> But none of those considerations should cause us to compromise theideas we
> exchange. Just because someone has a husband who refuses to readanything
> about unschooling doesn't mean we should stop recommending thatdads should
> learn about it too. Just because some people's relatives aresimilar;
> similar.of a law
>
> If the list is going to qualify and water down information because
> or a detractor, the information will be of less value. If we wimpout to
> make someone feel better because they can't REALLY unschool as theywould
> like to, that doesn't promote unschooling. It promotes wimping out.they're no
>
> That's a strong opinion, but where will the strong opinions be if
> longer allowed here?I'm in full agreement with everything you said here.
Sheila