mj_zk

Hi, Folks

I'm writing here because I feel a kinship with the ideas that have been
expressed on this list and I feel that I can get some good perspective from
people who participate here.

I'm a stay-at-home, work-at-home, unschooling mom of an 8-year-old boy
(he'll be 8 in just a few weeks). We live in a rural community and my son
does not have a whole lot of friends but he really craves other kids. He
just loves to play and has a wild, extremely creative imagination. Playing
is all he wants to do, and that's just fine with me because that's what he
wants to do. The tricky part is 1) finding other kids for him to play
with, and 2) me.

Me, because I'm feeling REALLY depressed lately. We are going through some
changes in the house, namely that my husband of 22-1/2 years and I are
rapidly moving apart, although we continue to live in the same house (we
can't afford not to). DH doesn't sleep in our bedroom anymore. We have
had a family bed since my son was born, and although my son has tried, he
still does not wish to sleep alone. It's been a few weeks since DH moved
to a different bedroom. Our son has slept in DH's bedroom a couple of
times, but mostly wants to sleep with me. DH works a lot and has very
little time to spend with our son.

In the course of a week, I probably have maybe an hour to myself, if
that. Sometimes two or three hours, but sometimes just as I get back home
from driving my son to one of his friend's house, within a half an hour or
so, DH gets home from work and, I'm not alone anymore. Sometimes I feel as
though I'm on the brink of going just crazy. I want to run away. I feel
that I can't do anything right, that I suck as a mom. I second-guess
everything I do (which I realized earlier is a good thing to a point
because questioning things is a way to grow). I have so little patience
and a much shorter fuse than I used to; I'm tearful most of the time and I
feel little joy. My life feels (and, I think, looks) chaotic and out of order.

Here's my dilemma: My son used to be in school and he absolutely HATED
it. But, I'm not sure that I'm the best person for him to be around. As
I'm writing this, I can see that I need to see someone for some counseling,
and I will set that up for myself this week. But, what I am looking for
from the participants of this list is a perspective that takes unschooling
into consideration. I think if he went back to school, it would only
compound the suffering he's probably already enduring (i.e., the changes in
our family and my unhappiness).

I know this sounds like a big mess, and I'm not sure I gave enough
information for anyone to answer me. So, please ask questions if you need
to. I should say that I feel that the big rift between DH and me was
caused by me and was his appropriate response to me. Not that he has no
responsibility at all in this, but I feel that I precipitated this break up
in a passive-aggressive way (the story of my life). I should also say that
DH and I plan to "settle our affairs" (clear up our debt), sell this house,
and then buy enough land so that we can build two homes on it, one for him
and one for me so that our son has us both around all the time.

Thanks very much for reading this and for any input you may have.

MJ

[email protected]

-=-Me, because I'm feeling REALLY depressed lately. =-

Short-term counselling! Monday!!

There are hotlines online (phone numbers listed for different parts of the
country, if you go to google.com and put in depression suicide hotline, and
they'll have phone numbers of other places to call in your area.

Don't delay on that. Every day is affecting your son and marriage too. It's
not too late to turn it all back around.

Can you go for a little drive with your son? Can you do a daytrip to a
nearby town and see a museum or zoo or something? Eat a happy lunch in a
pretty restaurant?

If you can't afford that, can you take the dog on a picnic?

Changes of routine often stave off depression, or at least let you forget for
a little while.

If you can find other homeschooling families to trade kids with sometimes
that will help your son's life be less tied just to you. While you have
another kid or two over, he'll be happily distracted, and the trade off can
be some days when he's at the other house.

Sandra

mj_zk

At 19:54 11/23/02 -0500, you wrote:
>-=-Me, because I'm feeling REALLY depressed lately. =-
>
>Short-term counselling! Monday!!

Thanks, Sandra, for your answer. I will call on Monday and set that up. I
can see how this is affecting my son, and it is very upsetting, kind of
like I was sneezing in his face and giving him a cold, only worse.

>Can you go for a little drive with your son? Can you do a daytrip to a
>nearby town and see a museum or zoo or something? Eat a happy lunch in a
>pretty restaurant?
>
>If you can't afford that, can you take the dog on a picnic?

There's not a whole lot to do around here for kids in the cold weather, but
perhaps I have to look harder.

>If you can find other homeschooling families to trade kids with sometimes
>that will help your son's life be less tied just to you. While you have
>another kid or two over, he'll be happily distracted, and the trade off can
>be some days when he's at the other house.

Yeah. This is the challenge! I think I need to look harder. We do have a
homeschooling family (school-at-home) that we do exchanges with. They have
two sons, one a year younger than my son and the other 3 years
younger. The three of them play a lot together but they they see each
other so much that my son needs breaks from them, and that, of course,
leads us back to the original problem. I admit that it's hard for me to
search out people when I'm feeling so funky. I really have to rise above.

Thanks again for your kid-compassionate, mom-compassionate answer. I
really do appreciate it.

MJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/2002 8:21:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mj_zk@... writes:
> Short-term counselling! Monday!!
>
I agree with Sandra. Don't wallow. It makes it worse. Find help now.

One suggestion for your son. Put up "park-day" flyers at the local health
food stores (there are more "alternatives" that hang out there) and the
libraries/co-ops/etc. Just BE there every Tuesday---or whatever--- and see
who else shows up. You may be surprised.

I'm sorry you are depressed. That's an interesting arrangement you and your
husband have come up with---with the land opportunity. I hope that works out.

All the best.
~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mj_zk

At 21:16 11/23/02 -0500, you wrote:
>One suggestion for your son. Put up "park-day" flyers at the local health
>food stores (there are more "alternatives" that hang out there) and the
>libraries/co-ops/etc. Just BE there every Tuesday---or whatever--- and see
>who else shows up. You may be surprised.

That's a GREAT idea. I'll give that a shot.

>I'm sorry you are depressed. That's an interesting arrangement you and your
>husband have come up with---with the land opportunity. I hope that works out.
>
>All the best.
>~Kelly

Thanks very much, Kelly. I hope it works out, too. DH and I are still
good friends, and we both are crazy about that little guy. Neither of us
can imagine putting our son in a situation where he would have to be torn
between us. So, we plan to remain a family, just a slightly different
family. It broke my heart to overhear a conversation my son had with a
friend of his recently:

MY SON: Do your parents kiss each other?

FRIEND: Yeah.

MY SON: So do mine, only very rarely.

Yuck.

MJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

In following the interests of your son, have you seen any opportunities for
him to be able to attend some kind of class or program like once a week?
That would give him something else to do and some needed time for you also.
I'm thinking like some kind of sports class/camp or maybe music or art or
martial arts, etc.

Mary B






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[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/2002 9:35:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mj_zk@... writes:
> MY SON: Do your parents kiss each other?
>
> FRIEND: Yeah.
>
> MY SON: So do mine, only very rarely.
>
> Yuck.

MJ,

My boys could have had that EXACT conversation several years ago. But the
"very rarely" would have been "NEVER". Our marriage was so on the rocks--I
couldn't even stand to have him in the same room. Several folks here have
met us both, and I'm sure they would never have guessed. He and I (the
aetheist) wound up (through a friend) at Retrovaille---a CATHOLIC church
troubled marriage encounter/counseling weekned. That was the breakthrough. It
hasn't been easy. But not only do I like him again, I actually LOVE him
again.

I was severely depressed and blamed him for everything (I don't get suicidal
when depressed, but HOMOcidal!). It was an awful period---about three years.
Three miserable years. I'm surprised all of us (any of us) survived.

Get help asap! And if you want info on Retrovaille, let me know.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The White's

In a message dated Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:18:47 <mj_zk@...> writes:

<<<<Sometimes I feel as
though I'm on the brink of going just crazy. I want to run away. I feel
that I can't do anything right, that I suck as a mom. I second-guess
everything I do (which I realized earlier is a good thing to a point
because questioning things is a way to grow). I have so little patience
and a much shorter fuse than I used to; I'm tearful most of the time and I
feel little joy. My life feels (and, I think, looks) chaotic and out of order.>>>>>

MJ,
I strongly recommend that you get a check up, see your doctor. The last year and a half has been very hard for me, mostly because of the declining health of my mother and all the things in my life taking care of her has affected. I began to cry daily. I felt that my life was a chore. I rarely had a good day.

Because my grandmother suffered from clinical depression when I was a teen, I knew I needed to see a doctor. She put me on Celexa, which is for depression, about 4 months ago and it has made me *normal* again. She says I will probably be on it for about 8 months, then will wean me off. But I felt better w/i about 10 days to 2 weeks. By 4 weeks I felt like myself again. I can't say that Celexa is the right thing for you, but I know it's what brought me back. And life is good again, no longer a chore. Thank goodness I didn't break my leg before the Celexa!!!!!!

Good luck,
Cindy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Bianco

Sometimes even when things seem like they could be the cause of troubles,
there can still be an underlying reason for depression. Getting checked is a
good idea along with counseling as well.

A few months ago I was feeling so edgy I wanted to kill someone. Birth
control pills was all I needed to find the old me. Sometimes it doesn't take
much.

My oldest was on Celexa and it worked wonders for her. She was also taking
counseling as well. They had her on Celexa for a year and then weaned her
off. It just retrains the brain to release normal levels of seratonin and
gradually the brain picks up and takes care of it on it's own. My daughter
has been off of it now for about 3 months and is doing great.

Mary B

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Gerard Westenberg

> Short-term counselling! Monday!!>>

I agree - get help! ..You know, I have been teary and down lately, depressed I guess, cos of health porbs .It has been helping me to make sure I am eating well and getting out every day for exercise - I walk, every day, regardless of weather, even kids can come along, but the exercisesand the getting out is important for me.. Also made an effort to listen to bright music and to watch happy videos - with the kids. Little things making a difference - Leonie W.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mj_zk

At 02:50 11/24/02 +0000, you wrote:
>In following the interests of your son, have you seen any opportunities for
>him to be able to attend some kind of class or program like once a week?
>That would give him something else to do and some needed time for you also.
>I'm thinking like some kind of sports class/camp or maybe music or art or
>martial arts, etc.
>
>Mary B

Thanks very much for this answer. We have tried classes. In fact, we do
take an art class together with the other homeschooling family. The
instructor of this class is great because she respects my son's way of
doing things, which is that he plays while creating. For him, the process
is the important thing and he doesn't care if he leaves with a product. I
could be completely warped here, but I think it's great that he's more into
the process. And, the instructor is really cool because she makes offers to
show him things, but she doesn't insist and really lets him do his creative
thing.

We have tried other classes, but he's just not interested in
anything. Mostly, he resents structure and control. As we were going to
try out a new class he said to me, "Mommy, I just don't want anyone to
control me." For some things that I think he *may* be interested in, I ask
him to just try something and if he doesn't like it for any reason
whatsoever I let it go. Our community center was offering a series
of classes for homeschoolers, and we signed up for a couple of them,
mainly to meet other homeschoolers. Unfortunately, they were a total
bust. I liked one of the programs, but he couldn't have cared less, and
the few other families that did sign up just did not click with my
son. Mostly, my son resented anyone telling him what to do, that it was
time to sit or stand or look at this or look at that. Goodness, can you
even imagine a kid like that in school?!?

What he needs is a recess class. :-)

MJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mj_zk

At 21:57 11/23/02 -0500, you wrote:
>He and I (the aetheist) wound up (through a friend) at Retrovaille---a
>CATHOLIC church troubled marriage encounter/counseling weekned. That was
>the breakthrough. It hasn't been easy. But not only do I like him again, I
>actually LOVE him again.
>
>I was severely depressed and blamed him for everything (I don't get
>suicidal when depressed, but HOMOcidal!). It was an awful period---about
>three years. Three miserable years. I'm surprised all of us (any of us)
>survived.
>
>Get help asap! And if you want info on Retrovaille, let me know.
>
>~Kelly

Thanks again, Kelly. It's inspiring to hear that you guys were able to
turn things around so well. I cannot imagine that happening here, but I'll
bet you couldn't either during that time. What I know for sure is that
before we can work on the marriage I'm gonna have to get my own self as an
individual human being straightened out.

MJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/2002 11:42:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mj_zk@... writes:


> What he needs is a recess class. :-)

That's how one mom here advertised her park day---as "Recess". With some
success.

~~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I am so sorry you are in this situation.

I can only really comment on your feeling like you aren't the best person for
your son to be with right now. I'm not sure it is possible to convince you
otherwise, but here goes. Last year after September 11th, I was feeling like
I was the worst possible person to be around. I wish I had gotten help.
Instead I planted my kids at a "mom's day out" program at a local church to
prepare them for preschool. I had decided that I was the last person who
should be with them and that they should just go to school as I was the worst
Mom possible. My son, the tender hearted one, became very aggressive in the
church program. He didn't actually bite anyone, he just hovered over a
grasped appendage threateningly with his mouth open.

I wish I had gotten help at the time. I needed it. My depression lasted a
lot longer than it needed to. Please find some help to get yourself out of
this. Your son needs you now more than ever with your marriage in a rocky
spot.

Just my thoughts. I wish you didn't have to go through this.

Elizabeth

Mary Bianco

>From: mj_zk <mj_zk@...>

<<Goodness, can you even imagine a kid like that in school?!?

What he needs is a recess class. :-)>>


I know what you mean. My son is pretty much like that also. That and he gets
bored easily and also loves to be alone and create his own movies and games.
What I was fortunate to find was a Christian homeschooling association that
puts on a once a week sports camp for homeschoolers in the area. Now we
aren't Christian and although they have some BAG time, (being alone with
God) and start off with a prayer, we have no problem with this. All the
people are very nice and no one tries to recruit anyone. They go to two
parks a day all over our county and another one as well. They run it
professionally enough like a business, (insurance and counselors all
certified and fingerprinted) but genuinely love the kids. My son and
daughter wouldn't miss it for the world. That plus two park days a month and
weekly visits with friends and drop in park days are enough for my kids
right now. If only everyone could have someone like Coach Rick and such an
organization like his sports camp, it's great for the kids.

Mary B


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[email protected]

Dear MJ,
It sounds like alot of crap that you all have been going through. I too have
just come out of a 6-7 month long depressive episode. It was impossible for
me to make decisioms about ANYthing while in it. what to have for dinner, am
I unschooling well, should I stay married? All were equally difficult. The
first thing is to get out of the abyss. I hesitated going into therapy for
meds because I hate to use allopathy! But I was definately at the point where
if I didn't do something I was going to completely break down. I happened to
be doing some studying and found that a vitamin deficiency could be a
culpret. So I started taking the B's, C, and Calcium. Within two days, I felt
Mostly Normal. (That will be the title of my book one day) I suggest you talk
to or go see a Nutritionist along with the therapist. I think that I was not
taking care of myself, and was pretty malnourished. Who knows, that may be a
factor for you also.
I could not take care of anything else until I took care of me. Getting a
child up for school? HAH! Make some playdates for your son, insist that Dad
tkae care of his son also, he'll need to while you are in Therapy right? I
also recommend joint counseling for you both. Even if you don't continue the
marriage, there are TONS of issues associated with a break up that still need
to be addressed that will be easier to discuss while IN counseling, one
little one being building 2 houses! Yick. WHo knows, maybe it will enable the
two of you two get past the past and recover your commitment. Divorce and two
seperate houses won't change the fact that you are still a family and you
will be forever.
So basically, what I'm saying is first get yourself feeling "MostlyNormal"
and THEN you can make your choices and decisions.
Love,
Elissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

susan marie

On Saturday, November 23, 2002, at 11:42 PM, mj_zk wrote:
>   Mostly, he resents structure and control. 


LOL .. me too. :-)

> peace,
Susan

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

mj_zk <mj_zk@...> wrote: **Mommy, I just don't want anyone to
control me.**



I think its great that your son can recognize this!! My kids still can't put their finger on their feelings like that, and they are alot older than your son. I think they and I have so much deschooling/decontrolling to get through.



Keep your head up and I'm glad you have this group to turn to.



I went through depression times and they still come and go, but I have to agree with others, talk to someone and sometimes meds can be helpful. Even if you look at it as something that is short term. Also, for me getting outside is huge! And I havn't done that enough lately.



Take Care,

Kelli
At 02:50 11/24/02 +0000, you wrote:
>In following the interests of your son, have you seen any opportunities for
>him to be able to attend some kind of class or program like once a week?
>That would give him something else to do and some needed time for you also.
>I'm thinking like some kind of sports class/camp or maybe music or art or
>martial arts, etc.
>
>Mary B

Thanks very much for this answer. We have tried classes. In fact, we do
take an art class together with the other homeschooling family. The
instructor of this class is great because she respects my son's way of
doing things, which is that he plays while creating. For him, the process
is the important thing and he doesn't care if he leaves with a product. I
could be completely warped here, but I think it's great that he's more into
the process. And, the instructor is really cool because she makes offers to
show him things, but she doesn't insist and really lets him do his creative
thing.

We have tried other classes, but he's just not interested in
anything. Mostly, he resents structure and control. As we were going to
try out a new class he said to me, "Mommy, I just don't want anyone to
control me." For some things that I think he *may* be interested in, I ask
him to just try something and if he doesn't like it for any reason
whatsoever I let it go. Our community center was offering a series
of classes for homeschoolers, and we signed up for a couple of them,
mainly to meet other homeschoolers. Unfortunately, they were a total
bust. I liked one of the programs, but he couldn't have cared less, and
the few other families that did sign up just did not click with my
son. Mostly, my son resented anyone telling him what to do, that it was
time to sit or stand or look at this or look at that. Goodness, can you
even imagine a kid like that in school?!?

What he needs is a recess class. :-)

MJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/02 7:58:28 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< Our marriage was so on the rocks--I
couldn't even stand to have him in the same room. Several folks here have
met us both, and I'm sure they would never have guessed. >>

I was just thinking "WHAT!? I nver would have guessed."

I even looked back up to see who was writing that.

Good job!

As to parents kissing, I have a good story: When I was seventeen I took my
new college roommate home to see my house. It started with her having NO
CONCEPT of a house with no central heating. I told her some of the rooms
(four of eight) had little freestanding gas heaters, and that was it, but
since it was adobe once it heated up it wasn't bad.

She was from St. Louis and her parents had two homes. One was a modern
(60's; it was 1970), big, all-decked out house in a fancy neighborhood. The
other was her grandmother's downtown house with leaded, cutglas windows,
fancy everything (turn of the century? 1880's?) and her mother was so rich
her father had never had to have a job EXCEPT... every single night he went
and slept at the downtown house to protect it from vandalism because of its
financial value.

Meanwhile, at my own ratty house, she was thrilled. We went to the drive-in
movies in a pickup owned and driven by a Real Indian (Jon Tsosie, my best
friend at the time), and the horn had to be honked (if it had to be honked)
by putting a tableknife across the middle of the steering wheel to make
contact. This, for the roommate from the East (she kept saying "St. Louis
isn't in the East" and we'd laugh and razz her more about it being east of
New Mexico and even east of Oklahoma!) was the most fun she'd had. For us it
was cheap and easy. We'd've gone to the drive in in that old truck anyway.
What option?

So back to the kissing. We got back to Albuquerque, 90 miles south of the
exotic Espanola weekend, and she told all our dining hall friends how
WONDERFUL my house was, but especially she said "Her parents KISSED each
other every time one of them left, and it was really sweet. They're really
in love. My parents never even sleep in the same house."

Thursday of that week I got my routine letter from home with a check for $5
or $10 in it, and because it was SO routine, I left it on my tray to read
later. I forgot and it went down the rollers and into the dishwater. I
rushed back and asked for it, not caring about the letter but wanting the
check.

It was wet and messy, but the check was still good and the letter said my
parents were getting a divorce and my mom had already started moving out.

I've never written that down before. I guess I'll save it for my diary.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/02 8:08:00 PM, jwwjr@... writes:

<< Because my grandmother suffered from clinical depression when I was a
teen, I knew I needed to see a doctor. She put me on Celexa, which is for
depression, about 4 months ago and it has made me *normal* again. >>

Oh!
Consider menopause as a factor. And don't do drugs without conselling.
Counselling can help you avoid a future incident. Anti-depressants can
really help, because there's a physical aspect to severe depression. But
that alone isn't going to teach you how your own attitudes and actions and
words can help you justify your depression and make your family needlessly
unhappy.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/02 9:50:32 PM, mj_zk@... writes:

<< What I know for sure is that
before we can work on the marriage I'm gonna have to get my own self as an
individual human being straightened out. >>

Those could happen simultaneously.

This is only partly applicable, but it's about not waiting for something else
before being happy:

http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/essay06.shtml


Sandra

Betsy

**We have tried other classes, but he's just not interested in
anything. Mostly, he resents structure and control. As we were going
to
try out a new class he said to me, "Mommy, I just don't want anyone to
control me." **

Hi, MJ --

My son hasn't articulated it quite so clearly, but he never says yes to
offers of "classes". However, he loves park days, which are just like a
great big recess. I hope that winter where you are will be mild and
brief, or at least mild-er and brief-er than usual. (It could happen!)

Mid-winter isn't very far away, and then they days will start getting
longer again.

Betsy

Stephanie Elms

> So back to the kissing. We got back to Albuquerque, 90 miles
> south of the
> exotic Espanola weekend, and she told all our dining hall friends how
> WONDERFUL my house was, but especially she said "Her parents
> KISSED each
> other every time one of them left, and it was really sweet.
> They're really
> in love. My parents never even sleep in the same house."

Funny you mention this. My parents always kissed when my dad left the house.
They divorced after 20 years and later I found out that they had not
had sex for the last 5 years (not that I wanted to know this tidbit, but
both parents used me as a sounding board). Luckily they kept it amicable
so they both are ok coming to the boys birthday parties....

Stephanie E.