encouraging a child to stick with it
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/15/02 12:58:51 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< > Am I imagining this? Can anyone else shed light on it? >>
I can't shed much light on it. I think it's natural, seeing as you are very
musical though.
I was incredibly attracted to my dh before I knew about his musical
abilities, but after he played guitar for me it sealed the deal.
There is something very sexy about a man that plays guitar to me. And then he
plays keyboard, drums, had a history with trombone etc....
He's very musical, so I understand being comfortable with musical types.
Musicians are usually free spirited and interesting.
Ren
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
And remember,
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived"
[email protected] writes:
<< > Am I imagining this? Can anyone else shed light on it? >>
I can't shed much light on it. I think it's natural, seeing as you are very
musical though.
I was incredibly attracted to my dh before I knew about his musical
abilities, but after he played guitar for me it sealed the deal.
There is something very sexy about a man that plays guitar to me. And then he
plays keyboard, drums, had a history with trombone etc....
He's very musical, so I understand being comfortable with musical types.
Musicians are usually free spirited and interesting.
Ren
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
And remember,
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived"
wanderingmommy
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., starsuncloud@c... wrote:
board. I'm a little astonished at how active this (these) threads
have become. I doubt this discussion would have lasted this long on
some of the other homeschooling boards I'm on. After all, choosing to
embrace UNschooling would almost require one to be a bit free-
spirited, dontcha think?
Beth
> In a message dated 11/15/02 12:58:51 AM Central Standard Time,Hmmm. Maybe this is why there seem to be so many musicians on this
> Unschooling-dotcom@y... writes:
> Musicians are usually free spirited and interesting.
>
>
> Ren
board. I'm a little astonished at how active this (these) threads
have become. I doubt this discussion would have lasted this long on
some of the other homeschooling boards I'm on. After all, choosing to
embrace UNschooling would almost require one to be a bit free-
spirited, dontcha think?
Beth
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/15/02 10:29:44 AM, webbdionfam@... writes:
<< I doubt this discussion would have lasted this long on
some of the other homeschooling boards I'm on. After all, choosing to
embrace UNschooling would almost require one to be a bit free-
spirited, dontcha think? >>
OOOOH!!
Wouldn't it be wild if musical intelligence turned out to be the greatest
indicating factor for unschooling?
One family I know the dad wants to unschool (he's a musician AND into
science/medicine) but his wife doesn't (NOT a musician <g>).
But one family that came into my unschooling group when that was really
active dropped out in a few months and started a pretty severely structured
group and co-op. Both parents were musicians. But maybe in the
over-the-edge of structure way. He was the conductor of the symphony (and
didn't last long here, I don't know why; maybe his dissatisfaction with such
an environment, in Albuquerque; he was Brit and uptight Brit), and his wife
was a concert violinist who travelled lots. Some of the kids were adopted.
ALL were studying music bigtime.
Two points of info. Not much.
Sandra
<< I doubt this discussion would have lasted this long on
some of the other homeschooling boards I'm on. After all, choosing to
embrace UNschooling would almost require one to be a bit free-
spirited, dontcha think? >>
OOOOH!!
Wouldn't it be wild if musical intelligence turned out to be the greatest
indicating factor for unschooling?
One family I know the dad wants to unschool (he's a musician AND into
science/medicine) but his wife doesn't (NOT a musician <g>).
But one family that came into my unschooling group when that was really
active dropped out in a few months and started a pretty severely structured
group and co-op. Both parents were musicians. But maybe in the
over-the-edge of structure way. He was the conductor of the symphony (and
didn't last long here, I don't know why; maybe his dissatisfaction with such
an environment, in Albuquerque; he was Brit and uptight Brit), and his wife
was a concert violinist who travelled lots. Some of the kids were adopted.
ALL were studying music bigtime.
Two points of info. Not much.
Sandra
kayb85
> Wouldn't it be wild if musical intelligence turned out to be thegreatest
> indicating factor for unschooling?That's an interesting thought...I have found that musical people tend
to be a little more open minded in general.
But I'm not as musically talented as my mom. I'm unschooling and
she's a teacher who isn't too sure about my unschooling. My husband
isn't musical at all and he's all for unschooling.
Sheila
Fetteroll
on 11/15/02 12:44 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
musical intelligence? Should they do unit studies? Calvert? Keep their kids
in school?
Maybe a lack of a need to control is a skill involved in being a "natural"
unschooler and having high musical intelligence. But that doesn't mean that
everyone else is zero on the scale. Everyone will be able to get unschooling
(and music) to a more or less degree.
What's better for the kids? Parents who recognize they don't have the
potential to be virtuoso unschoolers or parents who have the ability to
recognize there are hurdles between where they are and where they'd like to
be?
I think having parents with the natural ability to unschool is a lucky
thing. But are those kids the only ones who can benefit from unschooling?
Can't it be valuable to the kids if their parents recognize unschooling's
merits even if the parents have (perhaps untimately insurmountable) hurdles
in the way? Isn't recognizing the merits of unschooling self-selecting? Can
parents who can't unschool be drawn to unschooling?
I think people can *misunderstand* what unschooling is. They can be drawn to
what they *think* unschooling is, like letting the kids "educate themselves"
so the parents can give up the hassle of making the kids do school work. But
isn't it more likely that someone would seek justification to nonparent
because of personal problems than because they lacked the natural ability to
unschool? Would those kind of parents hang around someplace long enough to
be shown why they can't unschool? And what reason would they have to accept
that judgement as true? Would being told they don't have "unschooling
intelligence" stop them from neglecting their children?
So perhaps in addition to being drawn to unschooling, even more important is
the ability to self-examine, to be *able* to recognize how far you are from
where you'd like to be. And to be *willing* to examine those inner hurdles
and try to get around them.
Maybe it's being a musician that even makes you ask the question ;-) With
music there are many instances where there's obviously a right way to do
something. Being honest with those who can't do it right is helpful.
Though there are right ways and wrong ways to unschool as there are right
ways and wrong ways to play ballads, a greater part of being able to
unschool is the ability to apply it to someone's own life. It's the ability
to recognize the essence without concern for the details. It's the ability
to recognize what is and isn't a ballad and the desire to find ways to tweak
it towards being more ballad like, I think, rather than the ability to
reproduce a particular ballad that's more akin to unschooling.
Joyce
> Wouldn't it be wild if musical intelligence turned out to be the greatestAnd if it turned out to be true, where would it leave the parents without
> indicating factor for unschooling?
musical intelligence? Should they do unit studies? Calvert? Keep their kids
in school?
Maybe a lack of a need to control is a skill involved in being a "natural"
unschooler and having high musical intelligence. But that doesn't mean that
everyone else is zero on the scale. Everyone will be able to get unschooling
(and music) to a more or less degree.
What's better for the kids? Parents who recognize they don't have the
potential to be virtuoso unschoolers or parents who have the ability to
recognize there are hurdles between where they are and where they'd like to
be?
I think having parents with the natural ability to unschool is a lucky
thing. But are those kids the only ones who can benefit from unschooling?
Can't it be valuable to the kids if their parents recognize unschooling's
merits even if the parents have (perhaps untimately insurmountable) hurdles
in the way? Isn't recognizing the merits of unschooling self-selecting? Can
parents who can't unschool be drawn to unschooling?
I think people can *misunderstand* what unschooling is. They can be drawn to
what they *think* unschooling is, like letting the kids "educate themselves"
so the parents can give up the hassle of making the kids do school work. But
isn't it more likely that someone would seek justification to nonparent
because of personal problems than because they lacked the natural ability to
unschool? Would those kind of parents hang around someplace long enough to
be shown why they can't unschool? And what reason would they have to accept
that judgement as true? Would being told they don't have "unschooling
intelligence" stop them from neglecting their children?
So perhaps in addition to being drawn to unschooling, even more important is
the ability to self-examine, to be *able* to recognize how far you are from
where you'd like to be. And to be *willing* to examine those inner hurdles
and try to get around them.
Maybe it's being a musician that even makes you ask the question ;-) With
music there are many instances where there's obviously a right way to do
something. Being honest with those who can't do it right is helpful.
Though there are right ways and wrong ways to unschool as there are right
ways and wrong ways to play ballads, a greater part of being able to
unschool is the ability to apply it to someone's own life. It's the ability
to recognize the essence without concern for the details. It's the ability
to recognize what is and isn't a ballad and the desire to find ways to tweak
it towards being more ballad like, I think, rather than the ability to
reproduce a particular ballad that's more akin to unschooling.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/16/02 7:25:05 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< Everyone will be able to get unschooling
(and music) to a more or less degree.
I'm totally willing to withdraw the music idea. It was put out as a goof, to
see what responses came.
But I don't believe that anyone can get unschooling to a degree.
<<What's better for the kids? Parents who recognize they don't have the
potential to be virtuoso unschoolers or parents who have the ability to
recognize there are hurdles between where they are and where they'd like to
be?>>
Perhaps, there it is. They have to think they'd like to be there.
And those who think they would like to be there have to be willing to GET
there, not sit and ask people to bring it to them and sing it in their ear.
<<Isn't recognizing the merits of unschooling self-selecting? Can
parents who can't unschool be drawn to unschooling?>>
What would that really mean? You mean they can listen to unschooling on the
radio (perhaps that would mean reading www.unschooling.com and thinking it
sounded good) but not perform themselves?
<<But isn't it more likely that someone would seek justification to nonparent
because of personal problems than because they lacked the natural ability to
unschool?>>
What's the difference?
Personal problems can BE the inability to unschool.
<<Would those kind of parents hang around someplace long enough to
be shown why they can't unschool? And what reason would they have to accept
that judgement as true?>>
People without what Gardner calls intrapersonal intelligence might see a
failure, but instead of taking it personally, they sometimes declare
"Unschooling doesn't work."
Maybe they're as right as I would be if I said "Unschooling DOES work."
I guess I need to keep remembering to say "Unschooling can work if..."
<<So perhaps in addition to being drawn to unschooling, even more important is
the ability to self-examine, to be *able* to recognize how far you are from
where you'd like to be. And to be *willing* to examine those inner hurdles
and try to get around them.>>
There it is. If they can't "self examine," perhaps unschooling isn't within
reach for them.
<<Though there are right ways and wrong ways to unschool as there are right
ways and wrong ways to play ballads>>
There are more-traditional and less-traditional ways to present ballads.
"Right" and "wrong" are way subjective as regards art.
There are efficient and workable ways to unschool, and there are combinations
of actions which should not in good conscience be called "unschooling."
<<It's the ability to recognize the essence without concern for the details.>>
That makes sense.
This doesn't, to me:
"It's the ability to recognize what is and isn't a ballad and the desire to
find ways to tweak
it towards being more ballad like, I think, rather than the ability to
reproduce a particular ballad that's more akin to unschooling.>>
Trying to make a ballad out of something that isn't has no productive value.
Collecting and performing ballads is like being an antiques collector. No
sense taking a modern pocket knife and trying to tweak it to seem to be an
18th century knife. Just keep looking for an 18th century knife, and let the
modern one be what it is.
One good ballad, albeit not "traditional" but composed, is the themesong to
Gilligan's Island.
Sandra
<< Everyone will be able to get unschooling
(and music) to a more or less degree.
>>Do you really believe that everyone can get unschooling?
I'm totally willing to withdraw the music idea. It was put out as a goof, to
see what responses came.
But I don't believe that anyone can get unschooling to a degree.
<<What's better for the kids? Parents who recognize they don't have the
potential to be virtuoso unschoolers or parents who have the ability to
recognize there are hurdles between where they are and where they'd like to
be?>>
Perhaps, there it is. They have to think they'd like to be there.
And those who think they would like to be there have to be willing to GET
there, not sit and ask people to bring it to them and sing it in their ear.
<<Isn't recognizing the merits of unschooling self-selecting? Can
parents who can't unschool be drawn to unschooling?>>
What would that really mean? You mean they can listen to unschooling on the
radio (perhaps that would mean reading www.unschooling.com and thinking it
sounded good) but not perform themselves?
<<But isn't it more likely that someone would seek justification to nonparent
because of personal problems than because they lacked the natural ability to
unschool?>>
What's the difference?
Personal problems can BE the inability to unschool.
<<Would those kind of parents hang around someplace long enough to
be shown why they can't unschool? And what reason would they have to accept
that judgement as true?>>
People without what Gardner calls intrapersonal intelligence might see a
failure, but instead of taking it personally, they sometimes declare
"Unschooling doesn't work."
Maybe they're as right as I would be if I said "Unschooling DOES work."
I guess I need to keep remembering to say "Unschooling can work if..."
<<So perhaps in addition to being drawn to unschooling, even more important is
the ability to self-examine, to be *able* to recognize how far you are from
where you'd like to be. And to be *willing* to examine those inner hurdles
and try to get around them.>>
There it is. If they can't "self examine," perhaps unschooling isn't within
reach for them.
<<Though there are right ways and wrong ways to unschool as there are right
ways and wrong ways to play ballads>>
There are more-traditional and less-traditional ways to present ballads.
"Right" and "wrong" are way subjective as regards art.
There are efficient and workable ways to unschool, and there are combinations
of actions which should not in good conscience be called "unschooling."
<<It's the ability to recognize the essence without concern for the details.>>
That makes sense.
This doesn't, to me:
"It's the ability to recognize what is and isn't a ballad and the desire to
find ways to tweak
it towards being more ballad like, I think, rather than the ability to
reproduce a particular ballad that's more akin to unschooling.>>
Trying to make a ballad out of something that isn't has no productive value.
Collecting and performing ballads is like being an antiques collector. No
sense taking a modern pocket knife and trying to tweak it to seem to be an
18th century knife. Just keep looking for an 18th century knife, and let the
modern one be what it is.
One good ballad, albeit not "traditional" but composed, is the themesong to
Gilligan's Island.
Sandra
kayb85
> But I don't believe that anyone can get unschooling to a degree.Why? Is it because some people are too brainwashed? Not open
minded enough? Not willing to be different? Too lazy? Wouldn't
those be all things that one *could* change with enough effort? Or
are you saying that some people are innately incapable of
unschooling? Not intelligent enough or something? Even those who
aren't really intelligent *could* encourage their kids to explore,
expose them to lots of interesting things and people, and really take
a sincere interest in their kids. Those kids would be better off
with sub-intelligent parents than in school with highly intelligent
teachers who make them sit and do stuff they hate.
> There it is. If they can't "self examine," perhaps unschoolingisn't within
> reach for them.But everyone *could* self examine if they forced themselves to,
couldn't they? Even if they had to hire a therapist to help them do
it, it is something that *could* be done.
> There are efficient and workable ways to unschool, and there arecombinations
> of actions which should not in good conscience becalled "unschooling."
I went to school and I hated it. I resented having to ask for
permission to go to the bathroom. Once, as a high school senior, I
asked for permission to go to the bathroom, and the teacher
said, "Are you sure you have to?" I resented not having time to do
things I liked because I had all kinds of homework to do. I felt
like I was in a prison. (I was.) Now, if I had parents who didn't
make me go to schol, I wouldn't have gone. If my parents hadn't done
anything at all to encourage my interests outside of school, I still
would have been happier outside of school. My brother felt similarly
to me about school, but instead of sticking it out like I did, he
dropped out. My parents didn't do a lot to encourage his natural
interests (not that they didn't care about him, but because they
thought being a good parent meant trying to figure out how to get him
to go to school and be responsible). Yet, he taught himself all
kinds of valuable things that led to an interesting college major.
(music! lol) Would my brother have been better off if my mom had
been interested in his guitar playing and tried to provide all kinds
of interesting things for him, driving him places, buying him new
music, etc.? Probably. But if the choice is only between going to
school or not going to school and being left to oneself, I would pick
being left to oneself.
That being said, I think that when someone doesn't go to school and
is basically neglected by the parents (especially at a younger age),
a lot of emotional issues can develop. i don't think this is a good
situation at all. But a lot of emotional issues can develop from
going to school too. At least the child is free. There are no
truancy officers at the door ready to escort him to school if he
doesn't feel like going, there is no screaming because the parents
don't want to pay truancy fines. There are no phone calls from the
school wondering where the child is. There is no stigma of bad
grades on a permanent record if the child didn't feel like doing
hours of homework at night to get good grades. The child has a
chance, at least, to make something of himself instead of submitting
to school's desire to mold him into something he is not.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/16/02 11:55:48 AM, sheran@... writes:
<< > But I don't believe that anyone can get unschooling to a degree.
Why? Is it because some people are too brainwashed? Not open
minded enough? Not willing to be different? Too lazy? Wouldn't
those be all things that one *could* change with enough effort? >>
How are they going to want to change having no interest in it?
How would they begin to change "not willing to be different"?
<< Or are you saying that some people are innately incapable of
unschooling? Not intelligent enough or something? >>
Yes. Some just ask the same questions over and over, or say "Tell me what to
do," or have no interest or desire to HAVE an interest in what their children
want to do. They're hoping cleaning house and watching TV and leaving the
kids alone will somehow turn to something fascinating.
<<Even those who
aren't really intelligent *could* encourage their kids to explore,
expose them to lots of interesting things and people, and really take
a sincere interest in their kids. >>
Well if they can do all that, they're intelligent enough.
<<Those kids would be better off
with sub-intelligent parents than in school with highly intelligent
teachers who make them sit and do stuff they hate. >>
I'm guessing you haven't met many sub-intelligent parents.
Some kids are better off in school.
<<But everyone *could* self examine if they forced themselves to,
couldn't they? >>
This honestly doesn't make sense.
Think about it.
If they have to "force themselves," then what do you think they're examining?
And with what facilities?
<<Even if they had to hire a therapist to help them do
it, it is something that *could* be done. >>
If they don't want to, and they don't know how to, they can't really do it.
Hiring someone else to guess for you isn't quite the same as having
intrapersonal skills.
Personal awareness isn't a one-shot deal, where you figure out yourself and
you're done. It's constant, it's momentary and continuing.
Sandra
<< > But I don't believe that anyone can get unschooling to a degree.
Why? Is it because some people are too brainwashed? Not open
minded enough? Not willing to be different? Too lazy? Wouldn't
those be all things that one *could* change with enough effort? >>
How are they going to want to change having no interest in it?
How would they begin to change "not willing to be different"?
<< Or are you saying that some people are innately incapable of
unschooling? Not intelligent enough or something? >>
Yes. Some just ask the same questions over and over, or say "Tell me what to
do," or have no interest or desire to HAVE an interest in what their children
want to do. They're hoping cleaning house and watching TV and leaving the
kids alone will somehow turn to something fascinating.
<<Even those who
aren't really intelligent *could* encourage their kids to explore,
expose them to lots of interesting things and people, and really take
a sincere interest in their kids. >>
Well if they can do all that, they're intelligent enough.
<<Those kids would be better off
with sub-intelligent parents than in school with highly intelligent
teachers who make them sit and do stuff they hate. >>
I'm guessing you haven't met many sub-intelligent parents.
Some kids are better off in school.
<<But everyone *could* self examine if they forced themselves to,
couldn't they? >>
This honestly doesn't make sense.
Think about it.
If they have to "force themselves," then what do you think they're examining?
And with what facilities?
<<Even if they had to hire a therapist to help them do
it, it is something that *could* be done. >>
If they don't want to, and they don't know how to, they can't really do it.
Hiring someone else to guess for you isn't quite the same as having
intrapersonal skills.
Personal awareness isn't a one-shot deal, where you figure out yourself and
you're done. It's constant, it's momentary and continuing.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 11/16/02 9:49 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
who are trying to get unschooling. I'm trusting from what I see that by
sincerely trying people will get unschooling to a greater or lesser degree.
who think they've got it but don't get it. What am I missing?
learning so those people won't even stop at the unschooling spot on the
dial. The idea of letting kids choose will select out the people who won't
or can't see kids choosing as a plus.
they can unschool or not. I think those who sincerely want unschooling are
the ones who would take such a test to heart. And those are the ones I think
who can get unschooling. I think those who want to grasp for something easy
or are looking to be spoonfed aren't going to care one whit about whether
some test says they can do unschooling or not. That's just total gut feeling
so I could be wrong.
they likely to accept the results of some test that says they can't
unschool? It seems to me self revealing tests are meaningless to those
without intrapersonal intelligence. And intrapersonal intelligence is what's
necessary to get unschooling for those who don't get unschooling right off.
evolved from the AOL days. There are things that are expressed regularly
that people hadn't thought to express before. (Or maybe it's just *my*
understanding that's grown and I see things in a different way!)
I see people trying to express more of what unschooling is when it was more
heavily focused on what it wasn't before.
But I think it's no where near where it could be. There are still things
about unschooling -- or more probably about getting people unstuck from the
schoolish mindset -- that people can't find words for. And it *is*
misleading. People can come away with the wrong idea of what unschooling is.
Like there's still a huge gulf between the letting kids play and being
involved in their lives aspects of unschooling. Letting kids be and
providing a rich environment for them. Child led and parent strewn. The only
way to grasp how the seemingly opposite aspects can both be true is to read
bits and pieces of people's unschooling lives.
Ultimately it's more meaningful to be presented the evidence/stories and to
draw your own conclusions, but school tends to train that ability out of
people :-/ It's no wonder people go looking for others to tell them what to
do when so much of what society says is "right" means ignoring the obvious
conclusions about what we're seeing, like it being the right thing to do to
walk away from a child crying at the door of preschool. Who wouldn't need to
be told what to do when society says we need to ignore our instincts in
order to do the right thing?
You can't buy a specific something (the right notes/product) to get a
specific result (a particular song/math skills). Unschooling has theory. And
everyone needs to first understand the theory then figure out what that
looks like given their particular children with their particular interests
and personalities. Everyone's song will be different. But all the songs will
have certain aspects in common that will make them unschooling rather than
eclectic. Like jazz songs as opposed to polkas.
kids than that they get unschooling. I enjoy discussing unschooling but if
people take away ideas that make whatever they're doing better for their
kids, then that's a good thing.
But I don't think it's helpful to people trying to get unschooling to talk
about "whatever works for your family" style of homeschooling. So I think
it's helpful to keep it clear what is and isn't unschooling.
the first song type that popped into my head. ;-) I was really looking for a
style like jazz or blues or rock.
(Speaking of ballads -- though maybe it's just a story with musical
accompaniment -- ironically I happened to pick up Arlo Guthrie's Greatest
Hits CD at the library with Alice's Restaurant on it last week. And even
more ironically, we serendipitously (though unfortunately before I'd gotten
around to playing the CD for Kathryn) ended up in Stockbridge a couple days
later where "Alice's restaurant" was. Had I known we'd be there and had
looked up the trivia about the song we could have seen the church (now
Guthrie Center) and the 8x10 color glossies (that were actually black and
white). And I can't figure out if the restaurant in the center that was
"formerly Alice's Restaurant" (closed either for the season or permanently
wasn't clear) was Alice's restaurant. (Alice's restaurant refered to in the
song was called The Wooden Spoon I think.) It's down an alley and not
"around the back" as in the song. Perhaps she moved it to the present
location later and renamed it Alice's Restaurant.)
Joyce
> Do you really believe that everyone can get unschooling?No, you're right, I meant the people who come to places like Unschooling.com
who are trying to get unschooling. I'm trusting from what I see that by
sincerely trying people will get unschooling to a greater or lesser degree.
> And those who think they would like to be there have to be willing to GETI just don't have experience with people who stick around trying to get it
> there, not sit and ask people to bring it to them and sing it in their ear.
who think they've got it but don't get it. What am I missing?
>> Isn't recognizing the merits of unschooling self-selecting? CanI mean unschooling won't sound attractive to those looking for coercive
>> parents who can't unschool be drawn to unschooling?
> What would that really mean? You mean they can listen to unschooling on the
> radio (perhaps that would mean reading www.unschooling.com and thinking it
> sounded good) but not perform themselves?
learning so those people won't even stop at the unschooling spot on the
dial. The idea of letting kids choose will select out the people who won't
or can't see kids choosing as a plus.
> What's the difference?The difference is talking about finding a way to help people figure out if
> Personal problems can BE the inability to unschool.
they can unschool or not. I think those who sincerely want unschooling are
the ones who would take such a test to heart. And those are the ones I think
who can get unschooling. I think those who want to grasp for something easy
or are looking to be spoonfed aren't going to care one whit about whether
some test says they can do unschooling or not. That's just total gut feeling
so I could be wrong.
> There it is. If they can't "self examine," perhaps unschooling isn't withinAnd if they lack intrapersonal intelligence to assess what went wrong, are
> reach for them.
they likely to accept the results of some test that says they can't
unschool? It seems to me self revealing tests are meaningless to those
without intrapersonal intelligence. And intrapersonal intelligence is what's
necessary to get unschooling for those who don't get unschooling right off.
> I guess I need to keep remembering to say "Unschooling can work if..."I think that's a good idea. I think the way people explain unschooling has
evolved from the AOL days. There are things that are expressed regularly
that people hadn't thought to express before. (Or maybe it's just *my*
understanding that's grown and I see things in a different way!)
I see people trying to express more of what unschooling is when it was more
heavily focused on what it wasn't before.
But I think it's no where near where it could be. There are still things
about unschooling -- or more probably about getting people unstuck from the
schoolish mindset -- that people can't find words for. And it *is*
misleading. People can come away with the wrong idea of what unschooling is.
Like there's still a huge gulf between the letting kids play and being
involved in their lives aspects of unschooling. Letting kids be and
providing a rich environment for them. Child led and parent strewn. The only
way to grasp how the seemingly opposite aspects can both be true is to read
bits and pieces of people's unschooling lives.
Ultimately it's more meaningful to be presented the evidence/stories and to
draw your own conclusions, but school tends to train that ability out of
people :-/ It's no wonder people go looking for others to tell them what to
do when so much of what society says is "right" means ignoring the obvious
conclusions about what we're seeing, like it being the right thing to do to
walk away from a child crying at the door of preschool. Who wouldn't need to
be told what to do when society says we need to ignore our instincts in
order to do the right thing?
> There are more-traditional and less-traditional ways to present ballads.I meant as in hitting the right notes. Unschooling doesn't have right notes.
> "Right" and "wrong" are way subjective as regards art.
You can't buy a specific something (the right notes/product) to get a
specific result (a particular song/math skills). Unschooling has theory. And
everyone needs to first understand the theory then figure out what that
looks like given their particular children with their particular interests
and personalities. Everyone's song will be different. But all the songs will
have certain aspects in common that will make them unschooling rather than
eclectic. Like jazz songs as opposed to polkas.
> There are efficient and workable ways to unschool, and there are combinationsI guess I'm more concerned that people find something that works for their
> of actions which should not in good conscience be called "unschooling."
kids than that they get unschooling. I enjoy discussing unschooling but if
people take away ideas that make whatever they're doing better for their
kids, then that's a good thing.
But I don't think it's helpful to people trying to get unschooling to talk
about "whatever works for your family" style of homeschooling. So I think
it's helpful to keep it clear what is and isn't unschooling.
> Trying to make a ballad out of something that isn't has no productive value.Ack, no, of course it didn't make sense! The nonmusician in me grabbed at
> Collecting and performing ballads is like being an antiques collector. No
> sense taking a modern pocket knife and trying to tweak it to seem to be an
> 18th century knife. Just keep looking for an 18th century knife, and let the
> modern one be what it is.
>
> One good ballad, albeit not "traditional" but composed, is the themesong to
> Gilligan's Island.
the first song type that popped into my head. ;-) I was really looking for a
style like jazz or blues or rock.
(Speaking of ballads -- though maybe it's just a story with musical
accompaniment -- ironically I happened to pick up Arlo Guthrie's Greatest
Hits CD at the library with Alice's Restaurant on it last week. And even
more ironically, we serendipitously (though unfortunately before I'd gotten
around to playing the CD for Kathryn) ended up in Stockbridge a couple days
later where "Alice's restaurant" was. Had I known we'd be there and had
looked up the trivia about the song we could have seen the church (now
Guthrie Center) and the 8x10 color glossies (that were actually black and
white). And I can't figure out if the restaurant in the center that was
"formerly Alice's Restaurant" (closed either for the season or permanently
wasn't clear) was Alice's restaurant. (Alice's restaurant refered to in the
song was called The Wooden Spoon I think.) It's down an alley and not
"around the back" as in the song. Perhaps she moved it to the present
location later and renamed it Alice's Restaurant.)
Joyce
Betsy
**Yes. Some just ask the same questions over and over, or say "Tell me
what to
do," or have no interest or desire to HAVE an interest in what their
children
want to do. They're hoping cleaning house and watching TV and leaving
the
kids alone will somehow turn to something fascinating.**
I've got a theory! I wonder if people who aren't "close" to their
children wanted to unschool, whether they could do it well. Maybe they
couldn't. (I can't really relate to a woman who would RATHER wash her
kitchen floor than be with her kids. Nor do I admire a husband who
would push those priorities onto her.)
I think it would be interesting to study this question by putting
location detectors on parents and kids and tracking the distance between
them throughout the day and night. Then the statistics could be
adjusted for age of kids and size of house.
I postulate that people who are closer to their kids would be "better
unschoolers" but I have no idea how to measure that outcome.
Betsy
what to
do," or have no interest or desire to HAVE an interest in what their
children
want to do. They're hoping cleaning house and watching TV and leaving
the
kids alone will somehow turn to something fascinating.**
I've got a theory! I wonder if people who aren't "close" to their
children wanted to unschool, whether they could do it well. Maybe they
couldn't. (I can't really relate to a woman who would RATHER wash her
kitchen floor than be with her kids. Nor do I admire a husband who
would push those priorities onto her.)
I think it would be interesting to study this question by putting
location detectors on parents and kids and tracking the distance between
them throughout the day and night. Then the statistics could be
adjusted for age of kids and size of house.
I postulate that people who are closer to their kids would be "better
unschoolers" but I have no idea how to measure that outcome.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/17/02 7:21:09 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< I just don't have experience with people who stick around trying to get it
who think they've got it but don't get it. What am I missing? >>
Cynicism? <g>
You are luckily so far missing people coming back and complaining that they
tried this thing and it didn't work, and then explaining how they "tried" it
(making clear that they were cluefree on arrival and departure). And you've
missed the secondhand reports of people who say "My neighbor says she's
unschooling, but she's doing this'n'that..." And when they're right, and
it's bad, it's bad!
Maybe you'll keep on missing that stuff forever. Good, if so.
-=-And if they lack intrapersonal intelligence to assess what went wrong, are
they likely to accept the results of some test that says they can't
unschool? It seems to me self revealing tests are meaningless to those
without intrapersonal intelligence. -=-
I don't know what "test" you're talking about. I'm talking about the normal,
real test of real life--whether they can unschool when they think they're
trying to do it.
A test like bicycles test riders. You're either up or you're on the pavement.
-=-The only
way to grasp how the seemingly opposite aspects can both be true is to read
bits and pieces of people's unschooling lives.-=-
But some people seem to read and read a long time, and then look at their own
children without being able to apply what they've read. They still want to
direct their children's play, or leave them alone and hope for them to
discover some unstrewn environment as an unschooling paradise.
-=-I meant as in hitting the right notes. Unschooling doesn't have right
notes.-=-
I think if there arel just by moving away from the counterpart.
-=-You can't buy a specific something (the right notes/product) to get a
specific result (a particular song/math skills). Unschooling has theory.-=-
Music has theory too!! <g>
No, we can't say "THIS is the one single tune," but we can say the tune goes
kind of like this...
and we can "play it" for others to see, and they can play along (heavy on the
"play") until they can play it themselves. IF they can play by ear.
-=-Speaking of ballads -- though maybe it's just a story with musical
accompaniment -- ironically I happened to pick up Arlo Guthrie's Greatest
Hits CD at the library with Alice's Restaurant on it last week.=-
The nearest musical term for the style of Alice's Restaurant is "talking
blues," where there's recitation and then a chorus, more recitation, same
chorus, with music in the back. But since the chorus is folky and not
bluesy, then it must be talking folk-blues. <g>
Sandra the folkie musicologist
<< I just don't have experience with people who stick around trying to get it
who think they've got it but don't get it. What am I missing? >>
Cynicism? <g>
You are luckily so far missing people coming back and complaining that they
tried this thing and it didn't work, and then explaining how they "tried" it
(making clear that they were cluefree on arrival and departure). And you've
missed the secondhand reports of people who say "My neighbor says she's
unschooling, but she's doing this'n'that..." And when they're right, and
it's bad, it's bad!
Maybe you'll keep on missing that stuff forever. Good, if so.
-=-And if they lack intrapersonal intelligence to assess what went wrong, are
they likely to accept the results of some test that says they can't
unschool? It seems to me self revealing tests are meaningless to those
without intrapersonal intelligence. -=-
I don't know what "test" you're talking about. I'm talking about the normal,
real test of real life--whether they can unschool when they think they're
trying to do it.
A test like bicycles test riders. You're either up or you're on the pavement.
-=-The only
way to grasp how the seemingly opposite aspects can both be true is to read
bits and pieces of people's unschooling lives.-=-
But some people seem to read and read a long time, and then look at their own
children without being able to apply what they've read. They still want to
direct their children's play, or leave them alone and hope for them to
discover some unstrewn environment as an unschooling paradise.
-=-I meant as in hitting the right notes. Unschooling doesn't have right
notes.-=-
I think if there arel just by moving away from the counterpart.
-=-You can't buy a specific something (the right notes/product) to get a
specific result (a particular song/math skills). Unschooling has theory.-=-
Music has theory too!! <g>
No, we can't say "THIS is the one single tune," but we can say the tune goes
kind of like this...
and we can "play it" for others to see, and they can play along (heavy on the
"play") until they can play it themselves. IF they can play by ear.
-=-Speaking of ballads -- though maybe it's just a story with musical
accompaniment -- ironically I happened to pick up Arlo Guthrie's Greatest
Hits CD at the library with Alice's Restaurant on it last week.=-
The nearest musical term for the style of Alice's Restaurant is "talking
blues," where there's recitation and then a chorus, more recitation, same
chorus, with music in the back. But since the chorus is folky and not
bluesy, then it must be talking folk-blues. <g>
Sandra the folkie musicologist
Peggy
Joyce wrote:
their own pursuits I agree with you. But, I think there is an strong element
of unawareness in many, if not most parents, and I am guilty of it myself,
that allows self-delusion to creep in and we start thinking what we want or
need is really what our children want or need.
The hardest part is letting go of the illusion of control.
Still working on it myself, the habits of a lifetime aren't easy to let go.
Peggy
> I mean unschooling won't sound attractive to those looking for coerciveIf you mean really letting go of control and letting children truly follow
> learning so those people won't even stop at the unschooling spot on the
> dial. The idea of letting kids choose will select out the people who won't
> or can't see kids choosing as a plus.
their own pursuits I agree with you. But, I think there is an strong element
of unawareness in many, if not most parents, and I am guilty of it myself,
that allows self-delusion to creep in and we start thinking what we want or
need is really what our children want or need.
The hardest part is letting go of the illusion of control.
Still working on it myself, the habits of a lifetime aren't easy to let go.
Peggy
[email protected]
We are not official "unschoolers" as of yet. With our oldest child (11, dd)
we have her study for things that will be on a placement test when she goes
back to ps, her decision. She wants to go back and "experience Jr. High", we
are giving her this opportunity.
However, our youngest definately wants to continue homelearning, and our
second child (we have three), has not completely made up his mind yet, if it
is homelearning or ps. The child(ren) that stays home will be "unschooled".
The more I read about this, the more interested I am in it. Is it difficult
to "unschool" in a state that requires records? how would I go about keeping
records? We might move to WA within the future, and would like to know way
before we actually move!
Better go for now,
Shellie
we have her study for things that will be on a placement test when she goes
back to ps, her decision. She wants to go back and "experience Jr. High", we
are giving her this opportunity.
However, our youngest definately wants to continue homelearning, and our
second child (we have three), has not completely made up his mind yet, if it
is homelearning or ps. The child(ren) that stays home will be "unschooled".
The more I read about this, the more interested I am in it. Is it difficult
to "unschool" in a state that requires records? how would I go about keeping
records? We might move to WA within the future, and would like to know way
before we actually move!
Better go for now,
Shellie
[email protected]
Exactly! I remember more things that I have learned on my own, than
everything I was "taught" in ps. There were more times the teachers were only
worried about getting you ready for tests, that they didn't teach you a
thing. ONly wanted to make sure "their" classes made the grade.
One thing that still urks me (badly) is the fact that many school districts
do not require the teachers to take the same exams they expect their students
to take. Sad, I think. If you refuse to take the test, then you shouldn't be
allowed to teach at all.
Shellie
everything I was "taught" in ps. There were more times the teachers were only
worried about getting you ready for tests, that they didn't teach you a
thing. ONly wanted to make sure "their" classes made the grade.
One thing that still urks me (badly) is the fact that many school districts
do not require the teachers to take the same exams they expect their students
to take. Sad, I think. If you refuse to take the test, then you shouldn't be
allowed to teach at all.
Shellie
kayb85
Is it difficult
child's work. I take photos of completed projects, photocopy pen-pal
letters, I'm hoping I can print out those "progress reports"
or "certificate of completions" from some of our "educational"
computer games, I save brochures from museums. It also helps that my
daughter treats workbooks like she treats fun pads, so every so often
I go through the workbooks to see if there are any new pages done
that I can photocopy. We also have to keep a record of reading
material used, which is easy. I just keep a notebook and jot down
the title of the book she's reading. We also have to be evaluated at
the end of the year, but I have an unschooling-friendly evaluator.
Sheila
> to "unschool" in a state that requires records? how would I goabout keeping
> records?I live in a state that requires us to hand in a portfolio of the
child's work. I take photos of completed projects, photocopy pen-pal
letters, I'm hoping I can print out those "progress reports"
or "certificate of completions" from some of our "educational"
computer games, I save brochures from museums. It also helps that my
daughter treats workbooks like she treats fun pads, so every so often
I go through the workbooks to see if there are any new pages done
that I can photocopy. We also have to keep a record of reading
material used, which is easy. I just keep a notebook and jot down
the title of the book she's reading. We also have to be evaluated at
the end of the year, but I have an unschooling-friendly evaluator.
Sheila