Shay Seaborne

Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:21:32 -0800
From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
Subject: Re: Something of interest...

<<<some H$LDA paranoia/fear encouraging garbage. Am I ever grateful that
NHEN is now here and will be making REAL information available to the
public and homeschoolers alike so that this continue misinformation that
is self-serving from H$LDA will be
seen for what it is!>>>

This is closely related to a topic I've been investigating--the fear
inducing element of HSLDA. Last month I attended their Support Group
Seminar, and was struck by several things, including the information and
discussion about the threat to homescholers by Social Services. One of
the presentations was titled "What Parents Should Know About Child
Welfare Agencies."
Scott Woodruff regaled us with tales of CPS folks and assorted law
officers forcing their way into peoples' homes, and claiming they were
admitted voluntarily. He told a horror story of a family whose children
were clued in, by CPS questioners, to the possibilities of child sexual
abuse. He gave plenty of advice on how to handle such situations, and,
when asked, said that the number of homeschoolers falsely accused of
child abuse/neglect was a "chronic, steady" number, with occasional
"rashes," such as an increase in the number of "kids left in the car"
complaints.
Evonne Bunn, HEAV Exec. Director, interrupted Woodruff, to say that her
organization "will most often refer parents to HSLDA, and recommend you
join because you can't forsee problems." Woodruff replied with a
recommendation on the HEAV homeschool manual, and especially its legal
section.
Accompanying all this frightening talk was the 16 page "Dealing With
Social Services Contacts" section of the seminar workbook. The first page
of that section begins with this: "More and more frequently, home
schoolers are turned in on child abuse hotlines to social services
agencies. Families who do not like homeschoolers can make an anonymous
phone call to the child abuse hotline and fabricate abuse stories about
home schoolers. The social worker then has the obligation to investigate.
Each state has a different policy for social workers, but generally they
want to come into the family's home and speak with the children
separately. To allow either of these to occur involves great risk to the
family." The last 10 pages of this section include "How to Handle Visits
From Social Service Agencies," which uses two fear-inducing scenarios to
illustrate how to and now not to handle social workers.
The seminar workbook also includes a 5 page publication titled "What Is
HSLDA?" which starts with, "A truant officer is at the door. He pushes
his way in. He will not leave until he can take your children to the
public school. What can you do?
"A police officer is at your door with an arrest warrant to take your
six year-old child. Who can you call?
"The local public school official insists that your home school
arrangement is not legal and threatens you with criminal charges. Where
can you get help *fast?*
"The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is the answer..."
The irony was revealed when, during Woodruff's talk, another HSLDA
attorney, David Gordon, piped up from the back of the room. He said, "Out
of the 60,000 members, if I got 1 call a day [about CPS problems]--about
200 per year-- which I don't, that would equal only 1/3 of 1% of members.
Nobody here should be afraid. Most [CPS] reports come through public
schools. Nine out of ten end up unfounded or unsubstantiated."
Of course, this brief statement did little to alleviate the fears
promoted by the talk and materials. Furthermore, I had the distinct
impression this comment was not a usual part of the presentation, but was
added because of my presence--as was Woodruff's disclaimer, after the
first break, stating that "HSLDA speaks only for it's members, and we try
to make that clear."
Interestingly, during the panel discussion at day's end, someone asked a
question like, "How can homeschoolers make ourselves less of a target for
CPS?" The HSLDA response (Woodruff, I believe, but I didn't write it in
my notes) was, "Don't physically punish your children in public." That
was *the* answer.
Also during the panel discussion, someone asked about daytime curfews.
The panel speakers used scary phrases like the "police take your child to
the closest public school or curfew center." I forget exactly who was
speaking, but I got the impression that the speakers implied that daytime
curfews are a continuing possibility, especially when someone said, "let
HSLDA know that your area is considering a daytime curfew." None of the
panel mentioned that, here in VA, the law was amended last year to
specifically prohibit daytime curfews; any locality that institutes one
is in violation of state law. Not exactly a small omission. The speaker
also urged support group leaders to contact HSLDA if a daytime curfew
were in the works in their area--not to simply point out to legislators
that such acts are illegal.

-Shay

FOLC eclectic homeschool support group http://expage.com/page/folcfolks
VaEclecticHomeschool discussion list
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/VaEclecticHomeschool
Virginia Home Education Association
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~pm6f/vhea.html
National Home Education Network http://www.nhen.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/28/1999 1:24:37 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
s-seaborne@... writes:

<< Accompanying all this frightening talk was the 16 page "Dealing With
Social Services Contacts" section of the seminar workbook. The first page
of that section begins with this: "More and more frequently, home
schoolers are turned in on child abuse hotlines to social services
agencies. *snip*
"A police officer is at your door with an arrest warrant to take your
six year-old child. Who can you call?
"The local public school official insists that your home school
arrangement is not legal and threatens you with criminal charges. Where
can you get help *fast?*
"The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is the answer..."
*snip*

This is a hot spot of sorts for me. In the state of Michigan 1, I repeat 1
homeschooling family (to my knowledge) has been truly involved in Social
Services. They were abusive. end of that story.
I agree with what you are saying. I called HSLDA and asked them questions
like the what if scenarios. They told me that if I was not already a member,
they would not take my case. Soooo, If the police come here, take my child,
and tell me that I have to put him in PS, I grab my trusty telephone, dial up
HSLDA, finally get a human, I am told sorry, we cannot help you. The state of
Michigan (to my humble knowledge) does not even have a HSLDA representative.
I can say that Michigan Social Services can be truly deceiving in the
ways they approach their "victims". My dh is the head of security for their
office here, and I have witnessed some devious tactics. BUT when they heard I
was homeschooling, they never said a bad word about it. I have even loaned
out some of my books to caseworkers (for their children). Since my decision
(June 99) I have not had one CPS (children's protective services) worker at
my door. (Other than a friend who incidentally works there, we attend the
same church, LOL)
my personal insight of HSLDA is NOT to go through them. If you feel you
need a backbone through the law, hire an attorney. Tell him your fears, and
he will snuff them directly. So for the cost of the initial visit (usually
free to $50) you have the same backing, but with half the money. IF you ever
need something for the state, you can call your lawyer (and speak to him WOW)
and find out if it is something small or if you need to actually do
something!
I have an attorney here in Michigan. I call and normally speak directly
with him. Even better yet, I call him by the same nickname his wife uses. He
is helping me through protecting one of my children from his father. I can
normally call him at any time, and I have his HOME NUMBER on my card!!!! I
have asked him homeschool-related questions before. He writes them down,
finds out and gets back with me. he hasn't added them to the bill (yet, lol)
IMHO, I would rather see a law firm that I know is in the best interest
of me. One that I can stop by and get answers, and that I will see the same
lawyer every time that I need one. I would rather pay to have the same person
(who is knowledgeable of the case) than one of 100, who were pushed into it
for today...
You could pay $100 every year and not need them until your child is in
the 8th grade ($800) or call a private attorney and have him do it for $200.
I cannot afford to pay an entity $100 a year, even if it is for the cover
net. I take the chance, heck, by homeschooling I am taking a chance. the
chance of a better education, future, and life. Just by homeschooling, I am
different -- strange -- not in the norm -- why conform to money hungry people
now?
I have seriously considered going into the law practice. Just for the
homeschooling families. HSLDA makes me want to even more.
Okay, I give the soapbox up, ever so unwillingly......for now!

Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn

Lynda

That is H$LDA in a nut shell. What amazes is they seem to be a magnat for
folks such as Scott who is less crediable at practicing law than the
average legal secretary! I've seen some of the messes he has made of
things and the forms he has put together so that folks will be within
existing laws and they stunk! I mean, I really would like a lawyer to put
together a form for me that starts out by me admitting that I knew I was
breaking the law.

And all this nonsense about CPS is just that. By using their advise of
calling H$LDA before you answer the door, blocking the door, sending your
kids to hide in another room, you justify investigating a report.

And some of the horror stories they come up with really make me wonder!
Like the store clerks threatening to turn you in because you swat a kid for
misbehaving. Most store clerks couldn't get out of their own way or be
bothered to even provide the minimum of service let alone take time to make
a complaint. What do these folks do, walk around using the Ezzo sticks in
public??

My ex-MIL from h*ll turned me in and I have CPS on my doorstep when I got
back from the store (kidlets were out back with the dogs playing) which was
on the same block as our house. The guy explained why he was there and I
laughed. I told him to go talk to MIL and then call me. Well, she took
care of the call, alright! The guy called me back and told me that he had
flagged my file and put a synopsis of his visit with MIL in there. He
ended the call by asking how I had managed to stay married as long as I had
<g>

If you treat the vast majority of these folks like people instead of with
paranoia, you get treated the same. But then, who would join H$LDA??

Lynda

----------
> From: Shay Seaborne <s-seaborne@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: HSLDA Paranoia/was: Something of
interest
> Date: Sunday, November 28, 1999 1:10 AM
>
> From: Shay Seaborne <s-seaborne@...>
>
> Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:21:32 -0800
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> Subject: Re: Something of interest...
>
> <<<some H$LDA paranoia/fear encouraging garbage. Am I ever grateful that
> NHEN is now here and will be making REAL information available to the
> public and homeschoolers alike so that this continue misinformation that
> is self-serving from H$LDA will be
> seen for what it is!>>>
>
> This is closely related to a topic I've been investigating--the fear
> inducing element of HSLDA. Last month I attended their Support Group
> Seminar, and was struck by several things, including the information and
> discussion about the threat to homescholers by Social Services. One of
> the presentations was titled "What Parents Should Know About Child
> Welfare Agencies."
> Scott Woodruff regaled us with tales of CPS folks and assorted law
> officers forcing their way into peoples' homes, and claiming they were
> admitted voluntarily. He told a horror story of a family whose children
> were clued in, by CPS questioners, to the possibilities of child sexual
> abuse. He gave plenty of advice on how to handle such situations, and,
> when asked, said that the number of homeschoolers falsely accused of
> child abuse/neglect was a "chronic, steady" number, with occasional
> "rashes," such as an increase in the number of "kids left in the car"
> complaints.
> Evonne Bunn, HEAV Exec. Director, interrupted Woodruff, to say that her
> organization "will most often refer parents to HSLDA, and recommend you
> join because you can't forsee problems." Woodruff replied with a
> recommendation on the HEAV homeschool manual, and especially its legal
> section.
> Accompanying all this frightening talk was the 16 page "Dealing With
> Social Services Contacts" section of the seminar workbook. The first page
> of that section begins with this: "More and more frequently, home
> schoolers are turned in on child abuse hotlines to social services
> agencies. Families who do not like homeschoolers can make an anonymous
> phone call to the child abuse hotline and fabricate abuse stories about
> home schoolers. The social worker then has the obligation to investigate.
> Each state has a different policy for social workers, but generally they
> want to come into the family's home and speak with the children
> separately. To allow either of these to occur involves great risk to the
> family." The last 10 pages of this section include "How to Handle Visits
> >From Social Service Agencies," which uses two fear-inducing scenarios to
> illustrate how to and now not to handle social workers.
> The seminar workbook also includes a 5 page publication titled "What Is
> HSLDA?" which starts with, "A truant officer is at the door. He pushes
> his way in. He will not leave until he can take your children to the
> public school. What can you do?
> "A police officer is at your door with an arrest warrant to take your
> six year-old child. Who can you call?
> "The local public school official insists that your home school
> arrangement is not legal and threatens you with criminal charges. Where
> can you get help *fast?*
> "The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is the answer..."
> The irony was revealed when, during Woodruff's talk, another HSLDA
> attorney, David Gordon, piped up from the back of the room. He said, "Out
> of the 60,000 members, if I got 1 call a day [about CPS problems]--about
> 200 per year-- which I don't, that would equal only 1/3 of 1% of members.
> Nobody here should be afraid. Most [CPS] reports come through public
> schools. Nine out of ten end up unfounded or unsubstantiated."
> Of course, this brief statement did little to alleviate the fears
> promoted by the talk and materials. Furthermore, I had the distinct
> impression this comment was not a usual part of the presentation, but was
> added because of my presence--as was Woodruff's disclaimer, after the
> first break, stating that "HSLDA speaks only for it's members, and we try
> to make that clear."
> Interestingly, during the panel discussion at day's end, someone asked a
> question like, "How can homeschoolers make ourselves less of a target for
> CPS?" The HSLDA response (Woodruff, I believe, but I didn't write it in
> my notes) was, "Don't physically punish your children in public." That
> was *the* answer.
> Also during the panel discussion, someone asked about daytime curfews.
> The panel speakers used scary phrases like the "police take your child to
> the closest public school or curfew center." I forget exactly who was
> speaking, but I got the impression that the speakers implied that daytime
> curfews are a continuing possibility, especially when someone said, "let
> HSLDA know that your area is considering a daytime curfew." None of the
> panel mentioned that, here in VA, the law was amended last year to
> specifically prohibit daytime curfews; any locality that institutes one
> is in violation of state law. Not exactly a small omission. The speaker
> also urged support group leaders to contact HSLDA if a daytime curfew
> were in the works in their area--not to simply point out to legislators
> that such acts are illegal.
>
> -Shay

Lynda

Speaking of no lawyer in your state, that is another area that they
conveniently gloss over. They have 7 attorneys who are licensed at last
count to practice in 11 states. So, even if you were lucky enough to get
one in the office (I mean, after all, politics are their priority so they
are usually out making a bigger mess of politics), your chance of getting
one that even knows the laws in your particlur state are very slim. Not
only that, half of what they have up on their website as hsing laws for
particular states is not accurate or is their own personal idea of what a
state law means and quite frequently way out in left field. I know they
had a real mess proclaiming to be the laws here in CA. Haven't looked
lately to see if they had corrected it.

Lynda

----------

> From: LifesLearn@...
>
>
> This is a hot spot of sorts for me. In the state of Michigan 1, I repeat
1
> homeschooling family (to my knowledge) has been truly involved in Social
> Services. They were abusive. end of that story.
> I agree with what you are saying. I called HSLDA and asked them
questions
> like the what if scenarios. They told me that if I was not already a
member,
> they would not take my case. Soooo, If the police come here, take my
child,
> and tell me that I have to put him in PS, I grab my trusty telephone,
dial up
> HSLDA, finally get a human, I am told sorry, we cannot help you. The
state of
> Michigan (to my humble knowledge) does not even have a HSLDA
representative.
> I can say that Michigan Social Services can be truly deceiving in the

> ways they approach their "victims". My dh is the head of security for
their
> office here, and I have witnessed some devious tactics. BUT when they
heard I
> was homeschooling, they never said a bad word about it. I have even
loaned
> out some of my books to caseworkers (for their children). Since my
decision
> (June 99) I have not had one CPS (children's protective services) worker
at
> my door. (Other than a friend who incidentally works there, we attend the

> same church, LOL)
> my personal insight of HSLDA is NOT to go through them. If you feel
you
> need a backbone through the law, hire an attorney. Tell him your fears,
and
> he will snuff them directly. So for the cost of the initial visit
(usually
> free to $50) you have the same backing, but with half the money. IF you
ever
> need something for the state, you can call your lawyer (and speak to him
WOW)
> and find out if it is something small or if you need to actually do
> something!
> I have an attorney here in Michigan. I call and normally speak
directly
> with him. Even better yet, I call him by the same nickname his wife uses.
He
> is helping me through protecting one of my children from his father. I
can
> normally call him at any time, and I have his HOME NUMBER on my card!!!!
I
> have asked him homeschool-related questions before. He writes them down,
> finds out and gets back with me. he hasn't added them to the bill (yet,
lol)
> IMHO, I would rather see a law firm that I know is in the best
interest
> of me. One that I can stop by and get answers, and that I will see the
same
> lawyer every time that I need one. I would rather pay to have the same
person
> (who is knowledgeable of the case) than one of 100, who were pushed into
it
> for today...
> You could pay $100 every year and not need them until your child is
in
> the 8th grade ($800) or call a private attorney and have him do it for
$200.
> I cannot afford to pay an entity $100 a year, even if it is for the cover

> net. I take the chance, heck, by homeschooling I am taking a chance. the
> chance of a better education, future, and life. Just by homeschooling, I
am
> different -- strange -- not in the norm -- why conform to money hungry
people
> now?
> I have seriously considered going into the law practice. Just for the

> homeschooling families. HSLDA makes me want to even more.
> Okay, I give the soapbox up, ever so unwillingly......for now!
>
> Blessings,
> Stephanie
> Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best
principal,
> protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
> ***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
> IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
> ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Susan and Theodore

If you treat the vast majority of these folks like people instead of with
> paranoia, you get treated the same. But then, who would join
H$LDA??......

So not TRUE
I have been there!
I tried the I am not blah blah and you are human and etc.....The calm cool
collected SAHM and it just got me deeper into the hole....And I do not even
come close to the "abusive mommy"--It was a doctor with powerful connections
and they hassled and hassled me to no end to try to justify their invasion
and SHE wanted ALL my kids removed etc.......IT was horrible and scary...
It depends on the situation..
SOS--who still has all her kiddies!


----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda <lurine@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: HSLDA Paranoia/was: Something of
interest


> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>
> That is H$LDA in a nut shell. What amazes is they seem to be a magnat for
> folks such as Scott who is less crediable at practicing law than the
> average legal secretary! I've seen some of the messes he has made of
> things and the forms he has put together so that folks will be within
> existing laws and they stunk! I mean, I really would like a lawyer to put
> together a form for me that starts out by me admitting that I knew I was
> breaking the law.
>
> And all this nonsense about CPS is just that. By using their advise of
> calling H$LDA before you answer the door, blocking the door, sending your
> kids to hide in another room, you justify investigating a report.
>
> And some of the horror stories they come up with really make me wonder!
> Like the store clerks threatening to turn you in because you swat a kid
for
> misbehaving. Most store clerks couldn't get out of their own way or be
> bothered to even provide the minimum of service let alone take time to
make
> a complaint. What do these folks do, walk around using the Ezzo sticks in
> public??
>
> My ex-MIL from h*ll turned me in and I have CPS on my doorstep when I got
> back from the store (kidlets were out back with the dogs playing) which
was
> on the same block as our house. The guy explained why he was there and I
> laughed. I told him to go talk to MIL and then call me. Well, she took
> care of the call, alright! The guy called me back and told me that he had
> flagged my file and put a synopsis of his visit with MIL in there. He
> ended the call by asking how I had managed to stay married as long as I
had
> <g>
>
> If you treat the vast majority of these folks like people instead of with
> paranoia, you get treated the same. But then, who would join H$LDA??
>
> Lynda
>
> ----------
> > From: Shay Seaborne <s-seaborne@...>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: HSLDA Paranoia/was: Something of
> interest
> > Date: Sunday, November 28, 1999 1:10 AM
> >
> > From: Shay Seaborne <s-seaborne@...>
> >
> > Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:21:32 -0800
> > From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> > Subject: Re: Something of interest...
> >
> > <<<some H$LDA paranoia/fear encouraging garbage. Am I ever grateful
that
> > NHEN is now here and will be making REAL information available to the
> > public and homeschoolers alike so that this continue misinformation that
> > is self-serving from H$LDA will be
> > seen for what it is!>>>
> >
> > This is closely related to a topic I've been investigating--the fear
> > inducing element of HSLDA. Last month I attended their Support Group
> > Seminar, and was struck by several things, including the information and
> > discussion about the threat to homescholers by Social Services. One of
> > the presentations was titled "What Parents Should Know About Child
> > Welfare Agencies."
> > Scott Woodruff regaled us with tales of CPS folks and assorted law
> > officers forcing their way into peoples' homes, and claiming they were
> > admitted voluntarily. He told a horror story of a family whose children
> > were clued in, by CPS questioners, to the possibilities of child sexual
> > abuse. He gave plenty of advice on how to handle such situations, and,
> > when asked, said that the number of homeschoolers falsely accused of
> > child abuse/neglect was a "chronic, steady" number, with occasional
> > "rashes," such as an increase in the number of "kids left in the car"
> > complaints.
> > Evonne Bunn, HEAV Exec. Director, interrupted Woodruff, to say that her
> > organization "will most often refer parents to HSLDA, and recommend you
> > join because you can't forsee problems." Woodruff replied with a
> > recommendation on the HEAV homeschool manual, and especially its legal
> > section.
> > Accompanying all this frightening talk was the 16 page "Dealing With
> > Social Services Contacts" section of the seminar workbook. The first
page
> > of that section begins with this: "More and more frequently, home
> > schoolers are turned in on child abuse hotlines to social services
> > agencies. Families who do not like homeschoolers can make an anonymous
> > phone call to the child abuse hotline and fabricate abuse stories about
> > home schoolers. The social worker then has the obligation to
investigate.
> > Each state has a different policy for social workers, but generally they
> > want to come into the family's home and speak with the children
> > separately. To allow either of these to occur involves great risk to the
> > family." The last 10 pages of this section include "How to Handle Visits
> > >From Social Service Agencies," which uses two fear-inducing scenarios
to
> > illustrate how to and now not to handle social workers.
> > The seminar workbook also includes a 5 page publication titled "What Is
> > HSLDA?" which starts with, "A truant officer is at the door. He pushes
> > his way in. He will not leave until he can take your children to the
> > public school. What can you do?
> > "A police officer is at your door with an arrest warrant to take your
> > six year-old child. Who can you call?
> > "The local public school official insists that your home school
> > arrangement is not legal and threatens you with criminal charges. Where
> > can you get help *fast?*
> > "The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is the answer..."
> > The irony was revealed when, during Woodruff's talk, another HSLDA
> > attorney, David Gordon, piped up from the back of the room. He said,
"Out
> > of the 60,000 members, if I got 1 call a day [about CPS problems]--about
> > 200 per year-- which I don't, that would equal only 1/3 of 1% of
members.
> > Nobody here should be afraid. Most [CPS] reports come through public
> > schools. Nine out of ten end up unfounded or unsubstantiated."
> > Of course, this brief statement did little to alleviate the fears
> > promoted by the talk and materials. Furthermore, I had the distinct
> > impression this comment was not a usual part of the presentation, but
was
> > added because of my presence--as was Woodruff's disclaimer, after the
> > first break, stating that "HSLDA speaks only for it's members, and we
try
> > to make that clear."
> > Interestingly, during the panel discussion at day's end, someone asked a
> > question like, "How can homeschoolers make ourselves less of a target
for
> > CPS?" The HSLDA response (Woodruff, I believe, but I didn't write it in
> > my notes) was, "Don't physically punish your children in public." That
> > was *the* answer.
> > Also during the panel discussion, someone asked about daytime curfews.
> > The panel speakers used scary phrases like the "police take your child
to
> > the closest public school or curfew center." I forget exactly who was
> > speaking, but I got the impression that the speakers implied that
daytime
> > curfews are a continuing possibility, especially when someone said, "let
> > HSLDA know that your area is considering a daytime curfew." None of the
> > panel mentioned that, here in VA, the law was amended last year to
> > specifically prohibit daytime curfews; any locality that institutes one
> > is in violation of state law. Not exactly a small omission. The speaker
> > also urged support group leaders to contact HSLDA if a daytime curfew
> > were in the works in their area--not to simply point out to legislators
> > that such acts are illegal.
> >
> > -Shay
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Susan and Theodore

HEY I get the *SNIP* now
DUH
Geez
SOS.....makes alot of sense
----- Original Message -----
From: <LifesLearn@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: HSLDA Paranoia/was: Something of
interest


> From: LifesLearn@...
>
> In a message dated 11/28/1999 1:24:37 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
> s-seaborne@... writes:
>
> << Accompanying all this frightening talk was the 16 page "Dealing With
> Social Services Contacts" section of the seminar workbook. The first page
> of that section begins with this: "More and more frequently, home
> schoolers are turned in on child abuse hotlines to social services
> agencies. *snip*
> "A police officer is at your door with an arrest warrant to take your
> six year-old child. Who can you call?
> "The local public school official insists that your home school
> arrangement is not legal and threatens you with criminal charges. Where
> can you get help *fast?*
> "The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is the answer..."
> *snip*
>
> This is a hot spot of sorts for me. In the state of Michigan 1, I repeat 1
> homeschooling family (to my knowledge) has been truly involved in Social
> Services. They were abusive. end of that story.
> I agree with what you are saying. I called HSLDA and asked them
questions
> like the what if scenarios. They told me that if I was not already a
member,
> they would not take my case. Soooo, If the police come here, take my
child,
> and tell me that I have to put him in PS, I grab my trusty telephone, dial
up
> HSLDA, finally get a human, I am told sorry, we cannot help you. The state
of
> Michigan (to my humble knowledge) does not even have a HSLDA
representative.
> I can say that Michigan Social Services can be truly deceiving in the
> ways they approach their "victims". My dh is the head of security for
their
> office here, and I have witnessed some devious tactics. BUT when they
heard I
> was homeschooling, they never said a bad word about it. I have even loaned
> out some of my books to caseworkers (for their children). Since my
decision
> (June 99) I have not had one CPS (children's protective services) worker
at
> my door. (Other than a friend who incidentally works there, we attend the
> same church, LOL)
> my personal insight of HSLDA is NOT to go through them. If you feel
you
> need a backbone through the law, hire an attorney. Tell him your fears,
and
> he will snuff them directly. So for the cost of the initial visit
(usually
> free to $50) you have the same backing, but with half the money. IF you
ever
> need something for the state, you can call your lawyer (and speak to him
WOW)
> and find out if it is something small or if you need to actually do
> something!
> I have an attorney here in Michigan. I call and normally speak
directly
> with him. Even better yet, I call him by the same nickname his wife uses.
He
> is helping me through protecting one of my children from his father. I can
> normally call him at any time, and I have his HOME NUMBER on my card!!!! I
> have asked him homeschool-related questions before. He writes them down,
> finds out and gets back with me. he hasn't added them to the bill (yet,
lol)
> IMHO, I would rather see a law firm that I know is in the best
interest
> of me. One that I can stop by and get answers, and that I will see the
same
> lawyer every time that I need one. I would rather pay to have the same
person
> (who is knowledgeable of the case) than one of 100, who were pushed into
it
> for today...
> You could pay $100 every year and not need them until your child is in
> the 8th grade ($800) or call a private attorney and have him do it for
$200.
> I cannot afford to pay an entity $100 a year, even if it is for the cover
> net. I take the chance, heck, by homeschooling I am taking a chance. the
> chance of a better education, future, and life. Just by homeschooling, I
am
> different -- strange -- not in the norm -- why conform to money hungry
people
> now?
> I have seriously considered going into the law practice. Just for the
> homeschooling families. HSLDA makes me want to even more.
> Okay, I give the soapbox up, ever so unwillingly......for now!
>
> Blessings,
> Stephanie
> Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
> protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
> ***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
> IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
> ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Lynda

Note the word "majority" I realise that there are boobs in every job,
particularly "gold brick" (government) jobs. Now, I don't know what state
you are in (old age and bad memory <g>) but, all that aside, I think I
would start with the AMA. Personal vendettas and power tripping are a
definate no-no on the doc's part.

Lynda
----------

> From: "Susan and Theodore" <Stuff@...>
>

> So not TRUE
> I have been there!
> I tried the I am not blah blah and you are human and etc.....The calm
cool
> collected SAHM and it just got me deeper into the hole....And I do not
even
> come close to the "abusive mommy"--It was a doctor with powerful
connections
> and they hassled and hassled me to no end to try to justify their
invasion
> and SHE wanted ALL my kids removed etc.......IT was horrible and scary...
> It depends on the situation..
> SOS--who still has all her kiddies!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lynda <lurine@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: HSLDA Paranoia/was: Something of
> interest
>
>
> > From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> >
> > That is H$LDA in a nut shell. What amazes is they seem to be a magnat
for
> > folks such as Scott who is less crediable at practicing law than the
> > average legal secretary! I've seen some of the messes he has made of
> > things and the forms he has put together so that folks will be within
> > existing laws and they stunk! I mean, I really would like a lawyer to
put
> > together a form for me that starts out by me admitting that I knew I
was
> > breaking the law.
> >
> > And all this nonsense about CPS is just that. By using their advise of
> > calling H$LDA before you answer the door, blocking the door, sending
your
> > kids to hide in another room, you justify investigating a report.
> >
> > And some of the horror stories they come up with really make me wonder!
> > Like the store clerks threatening to turn you in because you swat a kid
> for
> > misbehaving. Most store clerks couldn't get out of their own way or be
> > bothered to even provide the minimum of service let alone take time to
> make
> > a complaint. What do these folks do, walk around using the Ezzo sticks
in
> > public??
> >
> > My ex-MIL from h*ll turned me in and I have CPS on my doorstep when I
got
> > back from the store (kidlets were out back with the dogs playing) which
> was
> > on the same block as our house. The guy explained why he was there and
I
> > laughed. I told him to go talk to MIL and then call me. Well, she
took
> > care of the call, alright! The guy called me back and told me that he
had
> > flagged my file and put a synopsis of his visit with MIL in there. He
> > ended the call by asking how I had managed to stay married as long as I
> had
> > <g>
> >
> > If you treat the vast majority of these folks like people instead of
with
> > paranoia, you get treated the same. But then, who would join H$LDA??
> >
> > Lynda
> >
> > ----------
> > > From: Shay Seaborne <s-seaborne@...>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: HSLDA Paranoia/was: Something of
> > interest
> > > Date: Sunday, November 28, 1999 1:10 AM
> > >
> > > From: Shay Seaborne <s-seaborne@...>
> > >
> > > Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:21:32 -0800
> > > From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> > > Subject: Re: Something of interest...
> > >
> > > <<<some H$LDA paranoia/fear encouraging garbage. Am I ever grateful
> that
> > > NHEN is now here and will be making REAL information available to the
> > > public and homeschoolers alike so that this continue misinformation
that
> > > is self-serving from H$LDA will be
> > > seen for what it is!>>>
> > >
> > > This is closely related to a topic I've been investigating--the fear
> > > inducing element of HSLDA. Last month I attended their Support Group
> > > Seminar, and was struck by several things, including the information
and
> > > discussion about the threat to homescholers by Social Services. One
of
> > > the presentations was titled "What Parents Should Know About Child
> > > Welfare Agencies."
> > > Scott Woodruff regaled us with tales of CPS folks and assorted law
> > > officers forcing their way into peoples' homes, and claiming they
were
> > > admitted voluntarily. He told a horror story of a family whose
children
> > > were clued in, by CPS questioners, to the possibilities of child
sexual
> > > abuse. He gave plenty of advice on how to handle such situations,
and,
> > > when asked, said that the number of homeschoolers falsely accused of
> > > child abuse/neglect was a "chronic, steady" number, with occasional
> > > "rashes," such as an increase in the number of "kids left in the car"
> > > complaints.
> > > Evonne Bunn, HEAV Exec. Director, interrupted Woodruff, to say that
her
> > > organization "will most often refer parents to HSLDA, and recommend
you
> > > join because you can't forsee problems." Woodruff replied with a
> > > recommendation on the HEAV homeschool manual, and especially its
legal
> > > section.
> > > Accompanying all this frightening talk was the 16 page "Dealing With
> > > Social Services Contacts" section of the seminar workbook. The first
> page
> > > of that section begins with this: "More and more frequently, home
> > > schoolers are turned in on child abuse hotlines to social services
> > > agencies. Families who do not like homeschoolers can make an
anonymous
> > > phone call to the child abuse hotline and fabricate abuse stories
about
> > > home schoolers. The social worker then has the obligation to
> investigate.
> > > Each state has a different policy for social workers, but generally
they
> > > want to come into the family's home and speak with the children
> > > separately. To allow either of these to occur involves great risk to
the
> > > family." The last 10 pages of this section include "How to Handle
Visits
> > > >From Social Service Agencies," which uses two fear-inducing
scenarios
> to
> > > illustrate how to and now not to handle social workers.
> > > The seminar workbook also includes a 5 page publication titled "What
Is
> > > HSLDA?" which starts with, "A truant officer is at the door. He
pushes
> > > his way in. He will not leave until he can take your children to the
> > > public school. What can you do?
> > > "A police officer is at your door with an arrest warrant to take your
> > > six year-old child. Who can you call?
> > > "The local public school official insists that your home school
> > > arrangement is not legal and threatens you with criminal charges.
Where
> > > can you get help *fast?*
> > > "The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is the answer..."
> > > The irony was revealed when, during Woodruff's talk, another HSLDA
> > > attorney, David Gordon, piped up from the back of the room. He said,
> "Out
> > > of the 60,000 members, if I got 1 call a day [about CPS
problems]--about
> > > 200 per year-- which I don't, that would equal only 1/3 of 1% of
> members.
> > > Nobody here should be afraid. Most [CPS] reports come through public
> > > schools. Nine out of ten end up unfounded or unsubstantiated."
> > > Of course, this brief statement did little to alleviate the fears
> > > promoted by the talk and materials. Furthermore, I had the distinct
> > > impression this comment was not a usual part of the presentation, but
> was
> > > added because of my presence--as was Woodruff's disclaimer, after the
> > > first break, stating that "HSLDA speaks only for it's members, and we
> try
> > > to make that clear."
> > > Interestingly, during the panel discussion at day's end, someone
asked a
> > > question like, "How can homeschoolers make ourselves less of a target
> for
> > > CPS?" The HSLDA response (Woodruff, I believe, but I didn't write it
in
> > > my notes) was, "Don't physically punish your children in public."
That
> > > was *the* answer.
> > > Also during the panel discussion, someone asked about daytime
curfews.
> > > The panel speakers used scary phrases like the "police take your
child
> to
> > > the closest public school or curfew center." I forget exactly who
was
> > > speaking, but I got the impression that the speakers implied that
> daytime
> > > curfews are a continuing possibility, especially when someone said,
"let
> > > HSLDA know that your area is considering a daytime curfew." None of
the
> > > panel mentioned that, here in VA, the law was amended last year to
> > > specifically prohibit daytime curfews; any locality that institutes
one
> > > is in violation of state law. Not exactly a small omission. The
speaker
> > > also urged support group leaders to contact HSLDA if a daytime curfew
> > > were in the works in their area--not to simply point out to
legislators
> > > that such acts are illegal.
> > >
> > > -Shay
> >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/29/1999 3:37:15 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
Stuff@... writes:

<< HEY I get the *SNIP* now >>
SOSusan-
Don't feel bad. I have no idea how long I was on before I got the snip, dh
(s, d), and other interesting computer shorts. LOL

Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn