The O'Donnells

At 07:45 PM 11/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
She will do real life math almost always. At the
>grocery store, I ask her,......

OK here's one, my dd today asked me about a fraction while cooking. But
she did not want to think it through herself she just wanted me to GIVE her
a quick and easy answer. How do you all handle this?

DH has finally come around and has begun to see we can take the time to
back off on the math push at our house. (yes, we are still struggling with
this) But I'm not sure I want to give her quick easy answers to things,
spell every word for her she does not know so she doesn't have to look it
up, etc. How do you all handle the quick and easy requests?


In His Service,

Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

Lisa Bugg

I give the answers. If I know them. ;) The thinking doesn't stop just
because you know the answer How can a person think TO an answer when a
subject is still rather new?? You've got to have a storehoue of facts in
order to be able to see a pattern. (which is what mathematics, the language
of patterns.) We've all pretty much discovered that rote memorization of
those facts does not bring understanding, it's actually putting it to use
that cements the knowledge.

So, if while you are cooking today you she asks is 1/2 the same as 2/4ths, I
would say yes, it is and 3/6ths, 4/8th are all the same too. Or if she asks
how many 1/2's make a whole cup, I'd answer and give her a bit more
information. Now she can THINK, she has information to think WITH.

Beyond that it's highly disrespectful to throw a question back into their
faces. If they could figure it out, they wouldn't have asked the question.
I suppose this feeling is strong for me because I cannot spell well. I
just don't see the patterns well enough to use them, as there are so many
exceptions. Telling a nonspeller to *look up* a word is just stupid, they
have to be able to spell it well enough to find it in the dictionary. If I
could get close enough to use a dictionary, I wouldn't be asking how to
spell something.

And remember, learning is not being able to come up with the *right answer*.
Having the answer is a school thing. Learning is that thinking and
communicating process that brings understanding. Understanding is something
we use. Give her the fractions information and let her use it, that will
bring understanding.

Answering our children's questions is a privilege. It's in those moments we
get to peak into their thinking processes, we get to help them understand
the world we brought them into. It would be a shame to thwart the very
connections we need open and healthy. just so we could feel in control.

Lisa

---- Original Message -----
From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 11:52 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Quick and Easy Requests


> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
>
> At 07:45 PM 11/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
> She will do real life math almost always. At the
> >grocery store, I ask her,......
>
> OK here's one, my dd today asked me about a fraction while cooking. But
> she did not want to think it through herself she just wanted me to GIVE
her
> a quick and easy answer. How do you all handle this?
>
> DH has finally come around and has begun to see we can take the time to
> back off on the math push at our house. (yes, we are still struggling
with
> this) But I'm not sure I want to give her quick easy answers to things,
> spell every word for her she does not know so she doesn't have to look it
> up, etc. How do you all handle the quick and easy requests?
>
>
> In His Service,
>
> Laraine
> praxis@...
> Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
> http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

metta

on 11/24/99 9:52 PM, The O'Donnells at praxis@... wrote:

> OK here's one, my dd today asked me about a fraction while cooking. But
> she did not want to think it through herself she just wanted me to GIVE her
> a quick and easy answer. How do you all handle this?
>
> DH has finally come around and has begun to see we can take the time to
> back off on the math push at our house. (yes, we are still struggling with
> this) But I'm not sure I want to give her quick easy answers to things,
> spell every word for her she does not know so she doesn't have to look it
> up, etc. How do you all handle the quick and easy requests?

Asking other people is a good way to find out something you need to know. I
don't think I'd like it if I asked my husband or a co-worker a question and
they told me to go look it up, especially if I was right in the middle of a
task. I think it's perfectly ok to give a quick and easy answer to a kid who
just needs to know something right then. If it seems appropriate, I might
tell them where they can find that info if they need it next time. Or I
might pull out a book about it later and show them. Or point out to them
when the same subject occurs in another context.
--
Thea
metta@...

[email protected]

>>>But I'm not sure I want to give her quick easy answers to things,
spell every word for her she does not know so she doesn't have to look it
up, etc. How do you all handle the quick and easy requests?>>>>

I strive for a balance between encouraging them to find the answer and
giving it when they *can't* (won't, whatever). Sort of like when they
are learning to walk, but sometimes are just tired and want to be
carried. I think if we allow them to be dependent when they feel the
need, it will encourage independence in the long run.
Mary Ellen
Snowflakes are on of nature's most fragile things,
but just look at what they can do
when they stick together.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Joel Hawthorne

I have a terrible time resisting being a didactic fool when it comes to these
issues. I keep wanting my daughters to "look it up etc. but I think it is nuts
on my part. I like easy answers personally and haven't found that looking it up
myself improves necessarily my knowledge. I now know that I can look up
something if I really need to. If I really don't know and they really want to
know well then I can help them look it up if they want to. Otherwise I think it
is more of that artificial rush to independence that we are brainwashed to
believe is so important. Gordon Neufeld in fact believe people should warmly
respond to their children's dependency. Encourage it while it is there. They
will become independent following natures' plan for emergent independent
self-hood. This happens usually much later than we think. The real centered
self-hood emerges much more real and rooted when dependence has been welcomed and
the child is allowed to move out into the world at their own pace. I think this
applies to learning too. In any case my older daughter detests it when I wax
pedagouish. She lets me know. So I hereby publicly commit to stopping doing
this counterproductive, irritating, fundamentally disrespectful thing. Big effort
number.....I forget.

metta wrote:

> From: metta <metta@...>
>
> on 11/24/99 9:52 PM, The O'Donnells at praxis@... wrote:
>
> > OK here's one, my dd today asked me about a fraction while cooking. But
> > she did not want to think it through herself she just wanted me to GIVE her
> > a quick and easy answer. How do you all handle this?
> >
> > DH has finally come around and has begun to see we can take the time to
> > back off on the math push at our house. (yes, we are still struggling with
> > this) But I'm not sure I want to give her quick easy answers to things,
> > spell every word for her she does not know so she doesn't have to look it
> up, etc. How do you all handle the quick and easy requests? snip

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

[email protected]

<< But
> > she did not want to think it through herself she just wanted me to GIVE
her
> > a quick and easy answer. How do you all handle this? >>

I am the dictionary at my house. Everyone asks me. I know if I don't tell
them they are lazy and will just spell it wrong.

Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/99 4:48:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
LisaBugg@... writes:

<< Answering our children's questions is a privilege. >>

Plus there's the advantage that my kids think me quite brilliant. They think
I should have went on the million $$ show with Regis. LOL

Laura

The O'Donnells

Thanks to all of you that answered this for me. I have a couple of
thoughts to add to the pot though. DD is hardly incapable of these
thoughts (converting fractions) and it comes across as laziness, sheer
laziness. This whole thought of dependency and allowing that to run its
course is interesting however.

Funny, I've heard this a couple of times:

Telling a nonspeller to *look up* a word is just stupid, they
>have to be able to spell it well enough to find it in the dictionary. If I
>could get close enough to use a dictionary, I wouldn't be asking how to
>spell something.

I find this rather odd as I was taught that you found the spelling of words
in the dictionary by sounding out the first 3-4 letters, looking those up,
and then phonetically sounding out the words from there. So why would it
be so hard to look up a word you don't know exactly how to spell? By the
way, dd is far from a non-speller - language arts is her "thing" and she
spells at a level far above what she would be expected to in ps.


>And remember, learning is not being able to come up with the *right answer*.
>Having the answer is a school thing. Learning is that thinking and
>communicating process that brings understanding. Understanding is something
>we use. Give her the fractions information and let her use it, that will
>bring understanding.

OK so do you request them to figure out how you came up with the answer to
help their understanding? If not, it would appear to me that you are just
letting them skate on your understanding.
>
>Answering our children's questions is a privilege. It's in those moments we
>get to peak into their thinking processes, we get to help them understand
>the world we brought them into. It would be a shame to thwart the very
>connections we need open and healthy. just so we could feel in control.

Lisa, why do you think I want to be in control? To me this is not a
control issue, but rather an effort on my part to not allow my child to
continue to be lazy (as I perceive she can be more often than I think is
best.)
In His Service,

Laraine
praxis@...
Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday

Susan and Theodore

> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>---see BELOW
>
> Thanks to all of you that answered this for me. I have a couple of
> thoughts to add to the pot though. DD is hardly incapable of these
> thoughts (converting fractions) and it comes across as laziness, sheer
> laziness. This whole thought of dependency and allowing that to run its
> course is interesting however.............
>
> Funny, I've heard this a couple of times:
>
> Telling a nonspeller to *look up* a word is just stupid, they
> >have to be able to spell it well enough to find it in the dictionary. If
I
> >could get close enough to use a dictionary, I wouldn't be asking how to
> >spell something..........
>
> I find this rather odd as I was taught that you found the spelling of
words
> in the dictionary by sounding out the first 3-4 letters, looking those up,
> and then phonetically sounding out the words from there. So why would it
> be so hard to look up a word you don't know exactly how to spell? By the
> way, dd is far from a non-speller - language arts is her "thing" and she
> spells at a level far above what she would be expected to in
ps............
>
>
> >And remember, learning is not being able to come up with the *right
answer*.
> >Having the answer is a school thing. Learning is that thinking and
> >communicating process that brings understanding. Understanding is
something
> >we use. Give her the fractions information and let her use it, that will
> >bring understanding.
>
> OK so do you request them to figure out how you came up with the answer to
> help their understanding? If not, it would appear to me that you are just
> letting them skate on your understanding.........
> >
> >Answering our children's questions is a privilege. It's in those moments
we
> >get to peak into their thinking processes, we get to help them understand
> >the world we brought them into. It would be a shame to thwart the very
> >connections we need open and healthy. just so we could feel in
control...........
>
> Lisa, why do you think I want to be in control? To me this is not a
> control issue, but rather an effort on my part to not allow my child to
> continue to be lazy (as I perceive she can be more often than I think is
> best.)
> In His Service,
>
> Laraine

I did not understand that reply at all............
I thought that is was good advice---just as any advice to be taken in
analyzed and then placed where it is needed (or not)
When my children ask me for an answer I just analyze the situation that they
are in
I.E.
If they were in the middle of cooking I would get out the larger liquid cup
and help them find the answer with me!
If we were in the middle of the store (AND this happened) my daughter asks
me "where the sperm come from"--I just tell her DADDY and leave it at that
for the moment......
If I was on the computer and very busy and they asked me what the date was I
would move my cursor to the right hand corner and let them KNOW......
Now if your question is one of how do I get my daughter to motivate
herself.....I can't answer (or offer any advice--wanted or
unwanted )...since I generally do not worry about "laziness".
I wish that I had some advice...but when my kids are not doing their jobs or
cleaning their rooms (laziness?)---I explain to them what I expect and how
it all ties into the family and cooperation and life and on and on......Are
fractions that necessary?
I remember how hard it was for me to understand them--Is it understanding?
With some of my kiddies I have to "sneak" stuff in--my son refused to
read--SO I bought him stuff that I thought that he would really enjoy
reading or pointed out how there are so many words and ideas out there that
would be neat to know---AND of course you need to read when you play
learning games on the computer---AND he loved the action adventure games!
(only non-violent here--do you have any suggestions of good ones--9 year old
level)
Anyways--I hope that you can find your answer or her hers.....
SOS

Lisa Bugg

>
> I find this rather odd as I was taught that you found the spelling of
words
> in the dictionary by sounding out the first 3-4 letters, looking those up,
> and then phonetically sounding out the words from there. So why would it
> be so hard to look up a word you don't know exactly how to spell

Because of all of the exceptions to the *rules* within the English langauge
and because phonics does not make sense to every person. I have enough
phonetic understanding to get close to a correct spelling, but not enough
for the more difficult words, which would be the ones I personally would ask
for. I also have one child that does not *get* phonics. It makes no sense
to him. Part of the deal is also our hearing., I cannot hear some of the
subtle differences of some sounds/combinations.

le to come up with the *right answer*.
> >Having the answer is a school thing. Learning is that thinking and
> >communicating process that brings understanding. Understanding is
something
> >we use. Give her the fractions information and let her use it, that will
> >bring understanding.
>
> OK so do you request them to figure out how you came up with the answer to
> help their understanding? If not, it would appear to me that you are just
> letting them skate on your understanding.>>

Understanding is something we USE, in order to function they must use what
they know. They have a vested interest in learning what they need to know.
The do not have a vested interest in learning the things I know or the
things I think they need to know.

> >Answering our children's questions is a privilege. It's in those moments
we
> >get to peak into their thinking processes, we get to help them understand
> >the world we brought them into. It would be a shame to thwart the very
> >connections we need open and healthy. just so we could feel in control.
>
> Lisa, why do you think I want to be in control? To me this is not a
> control issue, but rather an effort on my part to not allow my child to
> continue to be lazy (as I perceive she can be more often than I think is
>

I'm not sure I can write about this well, but I see it clearly as a control
issue. It is your perception of whether your daughter is being lazy or
not that is driving the train. You use words like *lazy* and *skate*, there
are value judgments inherent within your perception. It's a choice to see
asking quick questions as being *lazy* and it's another choice to see
answering questions as allowing the kids to skate on our understanding.
Because you have a choice in how you view these issues, there is an element
of wanting to control inherent in your choice to view them negatively.

I view such questions very differently. I do not think my children are lazy
or trying to skate through things by asking me for quick answers. I am not
privy to all that is going on in their head, but if what goes on in mine is
any indication having a question answered does not thwart thinking. When my
children call out for a quick math question I assume they are thinking about
they want to know and will continue to think after they have the answer.
Over time they will integrate the information into their store of automatic
recall knowledge, just like they have done since they entered this world.
Remember when you had a baby? Or a toddler? How many repetitions did it take
for them to learn to turn on the VCR? How many times did they try to say
water, before it came out water instead of waawer? I choose to value
questions for just what they are, requests for help.

Now, I'm going to complicate matters by saying that after all of this
thinking about questions and what goes on when a child asks a question, you
might be right, she might be choosing to be *lazy*.
If that is so, you have to ask WHY she's choosing to be lazy. Is it
personality? Is it fear? Why would she prefer help to thinking for herself.
This is where I believe school and having to have the *right* answer comes
in and warps the learning process. If we *schooled* learning to talk, we'd
have a bunch of folks unable to speak and who eventually refuse to even try.

And now, for the final point....there are times when the kids ask this or
that where I let it be known I think they ought to have already figured
whatever out. I don't refuse to answer the question, and I do not shame
them by my response, but I also let them know that I have expectations and
being able to ___________is one of them. This is that fuzzy line between
having a philosophy of education and parenting a human being. It's a
delicate line of being able to answer them kindly and yet encourage their
own growth. What I use as a benchmark is the way I am treated by those
still helping ME learn things. I have mentors and quires and there are times
when I ask for a quick and easy answer. A constant stream of figure it for
yourself would cause me to move on and find new mentors.

I'll stop now. <g>

Lisa

Lynda

Laraine, I think part of this post explains on the average where the math
"problem" lies. I've found (with my own kidlets, foster kidlets and when I
worked at schools) that some kids are reading brained or math brained and
that that is the area they function in best. My "reading" kidlets had no
problem doing "word" problems but to look at a sheet of paper with
"numbers" spread all over it seemed to be over whelming, and the same for
just "doing" those simple instant calculations. My "math" kidlets whizzed
through "numbers" and even learning their ABC's but putting them together
and getting the words was more of a challenge.

I wouldn't worry about it. Everything comes with time.

Lynda

----------
> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
>
> Thanks to all of you that answered this for me. I have a couple of
> thoughts to add to the pot though. DD is hardly incapable of these
> thoughts (converting fractions) and it comes across as laziness, sheer
> laziness. This whole thought of dependency and allowing that to run its
> course is interesting however.
>
> Funny, I've heard this a couple of times:
>
> Telling a nonspeller to *look up* a word is just stupid, they
> >have to be able to spell it well enough to find it in the dictionary.
If I
> >could get close enough to use a dictionary, I wouldn't be asking how to
> >spell something.
>
> I find this rather odd as I was taught that you found the spelling of
words
> in the dictionary by sounding out the first 3-4 letters, looking those
up,
> and then phonetically sounding out the words from there. So why would it
> be so hard to look up a word you don't know exactly how to spell? By the
> way, dd is far from a non-speller - language arts is her "thing" and she
> spells at a level far above what she would be expected to in ps.
>
>
> >And remember, learning is not being able to come up with the *right
answer*.
> >Having the answer is a school thing. Learning is that thinking and
> >communicating process that brings understanding. Understanding is
something
> >we use. Give her the fractions information and let her use it, that
will
> >bring understanding.
>
> OK so do you request them to figure out how you came up with the answer
to
> help their understanding? If not, it would appear to me that you are
just
> letting them skate on your understanding.
> >
> >Answering our children's questions is a privilege. It's in those
moments we
> >get to peak into their thinking processes, we get to help them
understand
> >the world we brought them into. It would be a shame to thwart the very
> >connections we need open and healthy. just so we could feel in control.
>
> Lisa, why do you think I want to be in control? To me this is not a
> control issue, but rather an effort on my part to not allow my child to
> continue to be lazy (as I perceive she can be more often than I think is
> best.)
> In His Service,
>
> Laraine
> praxis@...
> Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
> http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Thad Martin

hi,

Telling a nonspeller to *look up* a word is just stupid
i'm dyslexic and i could never find the word in the dictionary, but what would
have worked is if someone took the time to help me. for example if someone
would have asked me to take a wild guess at the spelling of a word they would
have quickly realized i was truly clueless as to even the first letter of the
word and once this was realized they could have been able to help me with ways
to compensate for this difficulty. as it was i did not find out until i was 30
when i hired a private speech pathologist who tested me and confirmed my
suspicious (i'm so happy for spell check:)

but this seems to be a side issue to your original query. i think the issue
is, how to tell if your kid is being lazy and wants to use your brain and not
their own, and the best answer i can give to this is - give her the benefit of
the doubt (when it is humanly possible because it think kids do have radar for
their parents' hot buttons) and answer her question with a question. like 'i
don't know what do you think' and she'll probably follow this with 'i don't
know' and you can say something like 'take a wild guess' because this will let
her off the hook as far as being right and open up her imagination and
creativity. because the answer is not what's at issue but the process of
thinking and mutual respect, you respecting her as able and will and she
respecting you as an integral part of her learning process. i hope this helps
answer your question. good luck.

-susan
austin,tx

The O'Donnells wrote:

> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
>
> Thanks to all of you that answered this for me. I have a couple of
> thoughts to add to the pot though. DD is hardly incapable of these
> thoughts (converting fractions) and it comes across as laziness, sheer
> laziness. This whole thought of dependency and allowing that to run its
> course is interesting however.
>
> Funny, I've heard this a couple of times:
>
> Telling a nonspeller to *look up* a word is just stupid, they
> >have to be able to spell it well enough to find it in the dictionary. If I
> >could get close enough to use a dictionary, I wouldn't be asking how to
> >spell something.
>
> I find this rather odd as I was taught that you found the spelling of words
> in the dictionary by sounding out the first 3-4 letters, looking those up,
> and then phonetically sounding out the words from there. So why would it
> be so hard to look up a word you don't know exactly how to spell? By the
> way, dd is far from a non-speller - language arts is her "thing" and she
> spells at a level far above what she would be expected to in ps.
>
> >And remember, learning is not being able to come up with the *right answer*.
> >Having the answer is a school thing. Learning is that thinking and
> >communicating process that brings understanding. Understanding is something
> >we use. Give her the fractions information and let her use it, that will
> >bring understanding.
>
> OK so do you request them to figure out how you came up with the answer to
> help their understanding? If not, it would appear to me that you are just
> letting them skate on your understanding.
> >
> >Answering our children's questions is a privilege. It's in those moments we
> >get to peak into their thinking processes, we get to help them understand
> >the world we brought them into. It would be a shame to thwart the very
> >connections we need open and healthy. just so we could feel in control.
>
> Lisa, why do you think I want to be in control? To me this is not a
> control issue, but rather an effort on my part to not allow my child to
> continue to be lazy (as I perceive she can be more often than I think is
> best.)
> In His Service,
>
> Laraine
> praxis@...
> Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
> http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/28/99 5:42:54 PM !!!First Boot!!!, lurine@...
writes:

<< I wouldn't worry about it. Everything comes with time.
>>


I beg to differ.

I don't think it (math and reading) just comes with time.

I think conquering a skill that could make your life better can be helped by
a parent like you recognizing that some people "get" numbers or reading
instantly, or quickly, and others don't. I think you can work to those
strengths. My son "gets" numbers right away. Is way advanced in math.
Daughter sees the world completely differently. But I also see that she is
thrilled when she does get a number concept. Except she gets it while
playing the piano. While playing a game. Etc. Not just sitting at the
computer (remember paper and pencil??? gosh that was a long time ago).
Reading is the same way here. He sees patterns; she likes to be read to. He
reads a book; she illustrates it. But all (and, yes, I think all of the info
needs to get thru eventually and not in so long a time that it becomes
frustrating -- a failure rather than a different learning approach) of the
info is getting thru. At different rates but getting thru. In different
ways but getting thru. I don't think this is forcing her to learn things she
doesn't want to know. I think this is enabling her to learn them in ways
that suit her.

Without comparing to her brother. A bit of an issue around here. She
compares. I try not to. When she brings it up, we talk about how much older
he is. She now says she feels sorry for him because he has that much less
time to learn things!

Anyway, I agree that each child is different and may learn differently. I
don't think that means a completely hands-off approach. As you may judge, I
am not a complete, radical unschooler. We are a mix of many things around
here.

Take care.

Nance

Lynda

Differ away. Everything does come with time and in its own time. The
message was don't get so intense and worry so much. Relax and accept the
different learning styles (which is exactly what you said in a different
way, btw). The worry over age and "grade" is just so much bs pushed out by
the ps system.

And, I can't quite understand your problem with an unschooling approach or
answer, this IS an unschooling list. Unschooling is child led, not adult
force fed. The adult is there to be a mentor and make available that which
the child's individual learning style needs when they need it. That is the
kind of advise you are going to get from unschoolers and not just "radical"
unschoolers.

And, as far as that goes, how in the world does knowing regimented math
make your life better??? I like math, I've taken extra college courses
because to me they are fun. But, knowing math has certainly not made my
life better.

The point is that if they need the math they will learn the math. I know
unschoolers who have gotten into Ivy League colleges who never touched a
math book, never made any efforts in the math department until they
realised they would need it to get into the college of their choice. They
then learned the math, got into the college and haven't turned a page
since. It came with time. The right time for them.

And, btw, this discussion was really over "teaching" and using Saxon math
and repetition, it wasn't about the diverse methods you were talking about.

Lynda

> I beg to differ.
>
> I don't think it (math and reading) just comes with time.
>
> Anyway, I agree that each child is different and may learn differently.
I
> don't think that means a completely hands-off approach. As you may
judge, I
> am not a complete, radical unschooler. We are a mix of many things
around
> here.
>
> Take care.
>
> Nance

[email protected]

>>>The point is that if they need the math they will learn the math.>>>
I worked at a Dairy Queen in the days before electronic cash registers.
We had to write down the prices, add it up, and figure the change from a
drawer of money. For years I could remember the price of many of the
food items. I suppose those who weren't good at it could fry the burgers
instead.
Mary Ellen
Snowflakes are on of nature's most fragile things,
but just look at what they can do
when they stick together.

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