Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: shift in thinking (got a bit -make that very- lo...
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 7:40:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
This is long and full of some much needed venting, so skip if you need to.
When you say that you sometimes think *My Mom would have hit me for this* is
it at times when Jayn is doing something and you are frustrated and have to
think before you act? Or are you just watching Jayn, thinking, but not in the
least upset? (makes no sense? <g>) I ask this because, unlike you, I used to
spank and I still find there are times when I have to stop, remind myself how
unfair I used to think things were in my house. How much I hated the belt,
the spoon, the hand, my parents. And remind myself that I am not going to
take my anger at a perceived situation and turn into that wild woman I once
saw in the mirror.
Many times I have to remind myself that the ideas I have about how children
should act come from being hit, or even just the looks. I'm not exaggerating
when I say that I could eat too loud, breath the wrong way, sit the wrong way
and get a nasty look or a pinch or a slap. I remember too many colds, not
being able to breath through my stuffed up nose and forcing myself not to
breath through my mouth, cause *mouth breathers look like retarded dopes*. I
remember sitting at the table with a plate of food being taught how to eat.
You keep one hand in your lap, you take a fork of food and put it in your
mouth. You close your mouth, but not your teeth, around the food. You take
the food off the fork, but don't scrape your teeth on the fork and make an
irritating noise. You slide the fork out of your mouth, without opening your
lips too far, making sure your teeth don't make any noise, then you set your
fork down and chew, making sure not to open your mouth. Eating chips was pure
terror. No noise. I remember eating a chip very slowly to keep from getting
smacked. There were ways to dust, to vacuum, to make a bed, to eat, to wash
dishes, to set a thermostat, to put pillows on a couch...
Last Thanksgiving Darin was in the kitchen with my Mom, Sister and me and he
asked if there really was a right and wrong way to do dishes. My Dad and
Brother walked in just then and my whole family just looked at him. I looked
at Darin, shrugged my shoulders and said, I told you so. He understands me
now when I sit at a table and cry just to keep myself from saying something
to the kids about how they are eating.
My Sister called me a month or so ago, crying. She had just moved to
Pennsylvania, just gotten married, and was trying to set her new husband's
kitchen in order. She had taken everything out of the cabinets, washed every
single cup, fork, cookie sheet and bowl and put everything away. She had
stacked all the dry goods up in the *right* order, placed all the cans on the
shelves in the *correct* place. That evening, her husband did the dishes *all
wrong* and then put them away with no regard to how Renee' had organized
everything. They didn't have a fight, but he couldn't get her to understand
that it was okay if he put a bowl on top of plates. He put some groceries
away and he just stacked the cans in the cabinet. She called, crying and the
first words out of her mouth were "Aren't the cans of green beans supposed to
all be together? Doesn't the cereal all have to be stacked in order of box
size?" She was frantic. She wanted me to tell her new husband that he did it
all wrong, that there was a right way to do things, to explain it to him, to
make him understand. But what I heard was a terrified little girl.
I thought I had avoided passing some of this crap onto my kids. I have never
said to anyone how to wash a dish, or put things away in a certain order. I
was wrong, I didn't have to. Actions speak volumes. Moly was washing dishes
the other night and Darin went in and asked her if she wanted help. She said
sure, you wash, I'll dry. So they were going about it and about 5 minutes
later, she came into me and said, "Daddy's washing the dishes in the wrong
order." Darin laughed and said to me that she is just like me! Then he told
me that when I was gone for a week last summer, she had helped him with the
groceries and they were putting things away and she put things in the cabinet
just like I did. He said she dusts like me, folds clothes like me... I
couldn't believe it. Sometimes I really feel like I haven't escaped all that
abuse, and I have passed it on through my genes or something. Its like ugly
cold fingers that have reached past my efforts to keep my kids safe and
touched them despite me. I really hate that. Does anyone who has made it to
the end of my long post, go through this too? I hope not.
Thanks,
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
> As Jayn grows older I frequently have moments of almost out of bodyGod Robin! What a great post!
> schism when I suddenly think "Mum would have hit me if I had been doing
> this". It could be something as simple as making a mess with water.
> These realizations make it hard for me to accept her apology in my
> heart. She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about Jayn".
> There must have been something in my face, because her next words were
> "you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do, she
> couldn't have done it. A thousand generations of abuse and fury. Well it
> stops here: the chain is broken. I am the bulwark against the teeming
> rages of my family history. There is nothing that Jayn could ever do
> that would cause me to spank her, or believe she deserved to be spanked.
>
> With gratitude,
>
> Robyn Coburn
This is long and full of some much needed venting, so skip if you need to.
When you say that you sometimes think *My Mom would have hit me for this* is
it at times when Jayn is doing something and you are frustrated and have to
think before you act? Or are you just watching Jayn, thinking, but not in the
least upset? (makes no sense? <g>) I ask this because, unlike you, I used to
spank and I still find there are times when I have to stop, remind myself how
unfair I used to think things were in my house. How much I hated the belt,
the spoon, the hand, my parents. And remind myself that I am not going to
take my anger at a perceived situation and turn into that wild woman I once
saw in the mirror.
Many times I have to remind myself that the ideas I have about how children
should act come from being hit, or even just the looks. I'm not exaggerating
when I say that I could eat too loud, breath the wrong way, sit the wrong way
and get a nasty look or a pinch or a slap. I remember too many colds, not
being able to breath through my stuffed up nose and forcing myself not to
breath through my mouth, cause *mouth breathers look like retarded dopes*. I
remember sitting at the table with a plate of food being taught how to eat.
You keep one hand in your lap, you take a fork of food and put it in your
mouth. You close your mouth, but not your teeth, around the food. You take
the food off the fork, but don't scrape your teeth on the fork and make an
irritating noise. You slide the fork out of your mouth, without opening your
lips too far, making sure your teeth don't make any noise, then you set your
fork down and chew, making sure not to open your mouth. Eating chips was pure
terror. No noise. I remember eating a chip very slowly to keep from getting
smacked. There were ways to dust, to vacuum, to make a bed, to eat, to wash
dishes, to set a thermostat, to put pillows on a couch...
Last Thanksgiving Darin was in the kitchen with my Mom, Sister and me and he
asked if there really was a right and wrong way to do dishes. My Dad and
Brother walked in just then and my whole family just looked at him. I looked
at Darin, shrugged my shoulders and said, I told you so. He understands me
now when I sit at a table and cry just to keep myself from saying something
to the kids about how they are eating.
My Sister called me a month or so ago, crying. She had just moved to
Pennsylvania, just gotten married, and was trying to set her new husband's
kitchen in order. She had taken everything out of the cabinets, washed every
single cup, fork, cookie sheet and bowl and put everything away. She had
stacked all the dry goods up in the *right* order, placed all the cans on the
shelves in the *correct* place. That evening, her husband did the dishes *all
wrong* and then put them away with no regard to how Renee' had organized
everything. They didn't have a fight, but he couldn't get her to understand
that it was okay if he put a bowl on top of plates. He put some groceries
away and he just stacked the cans in the cabinet. She called, crying and the
first words out of her mouth were "Aren't the cans of green beans supposed to
all be together? Doesn't the cereal all have to be stacked in order of box
size?" She was frantic. She wanted me to tell her new husband that he did it
all wrong, that there was a right way to do things, to explain it to him, to
make him understand. But what I heard was a terrified little girl.
I thought I had avoided passing some of this crap onto my kids. I have never
said to anyone how to wash a dish, or put things away in a certain order. I
was wrong, I didn't have to. Actions speak volumes. Moly was washing dishes
the other night and Darin went in and asked her if she wanted help. She said
sure, you wash, I'll dry. So they were going about it and about 5 minutes
later, she came into me and said, "Daddy's washing the dishes in the wrong
order." Darin laughed and said to me that she is just like me! Then he told
me that when I was gone for a week last summer, she had helped him with the
groceries and they were putting things away and she put things in the cabinet
just like I did. He said she dusts like me, folds clothes like me... I
couldn't believe it. Sometimes I really feel like I haven't escaped all that
abuse, and I have passed it on through my genes or something. Its like ugly
cold fingers that have reached past my efforts to keep my kids safe and
touched them despite me. I really hate that. Does anyone who has made it to
the end of my long post, go through this too? I hope not.
Thanks,
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 3:55:51 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Dnowens@...
writes:
as children. I lived in fear of accidently sucking an ice cube when taking a
drink of my tea. Left hand in your lap, eyes to the front, both feet flat on
the floor, napkin in lap, no teeth raking, lip smacking, finger licking. I
have left our family dinner table rather than loose it with my children over
table manners.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Does anyone who has made it toYes! Yes! A thousand times, Yes! We must have been living parallel lives
> the end of my long post, go through this too? I hope not.
>
> Thanks,
>
> ~Nancy
>
as children. I lived in fear of accidently sucking an ice cube when taking a
drink of my tea. Left hand in your lap, eyes to the front, both feet flat on
the floor, napkin in lap, no teeth raking, lip smacking, finger licking. I
have left our family dinner table rather than loose it with my children over
table manners.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 11:03:23 AM Central Daylight Time,
EBA7009@... writes:
glass clink around too much. I'm crying now.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
EBA7009@... writes:
> Yes! Yes! A thousand times, Yes! We must have been living parallel livesCrap. Is your Dad's name William? I forgot about not letting the ice in your
> as children. I lived in fear of accidently sucking an ice cube when taking
> a
> drink of my tea. Left hand in your lap, eyes to the front, both feet flat
> on
> the floor, napkin in lap, no teeth raking, lip smacking, finger licking. I
>
> have left our family dinner table rather than loose it with my children
> over
> table manners.
>
> Beth
glass clink around too much. I'm crying now.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
james e thomas
Nancy,
I can surely relate to your post.
But is it possible that you have modeled the way you do things and your
daughter has picked up on it? she is with you most of the time it sounds
like and would have picked up your way.
Just a thought!
I have struggled with these issues too. I may not spank but if I yell
is that "better"? If I get to where I don't yell but I shame them
verbally is that "better"? If I don't shame them verbally but I give the
"look" is that better? I feel like I am failing...but my family tells me
that I am "learning" and these are the baby steps to doing it "better".
I love the idea of picking up the child that I am angry with. Talk
about wisdom!!!! Your dad really has something there.
Does anyone else have "tapes" that seem to play in your mind of what
you should do (because of what you have heard,seen or been told to do by
friends or family)? And you have to deal with that as well as your own
feelings and the issue at hand?
sharon
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I can surely relate to your post.
But is it possible that you have modeled the way you do things and your
daughter has picked up on it? she is with you most of the time it sounds
like and would have picked up your way.
Just a thought!
I have struggled with these issues too. I may not spank but if I yell
is that "better"? If I get to where I don't yell but I shame them
verbally is that "better"? If I don't shame them verbally but I give the
"look" is that better? I feel like I am failing...but my family tells me
that I am "learning" and these are the baby steps to doing it "better".
I love the idea of picking up the child that I am angry with. Talk
about wisdom!!!! Your dad really has something there.
Does anyone else have "tapes" that seem to play in your mind of what
you should do (because of what you have heard,seen or been told to do by
friends or family)? And you have to deal with that as well as your own
feelings and the issue at hand?
sharon
________________________________________________________________
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james e thomas
Nancy and Beth,
Hope you don't mind my asking but how old are you both? I ask because
this sounds more like my sister's generation. She is almost
50.....Reminds me of the not wearing white until a certain date. Making
sure that you crossed your feet at the ankles instead of at the knee,
making sure you had gloves,purse and hat all matching... sounds old
huh?(Actually it isn't as I am 41 and we have our own set of "rules") The
picture I get is Jaqueline Kennedy...wasn't she the example to follow
then?
As you both shared I could see that there are alot of "manners" that
don't really have a purpose. How many people are offended by sucking ice
cubes when you drink (no offense Nancy...it just seemed funny), having
your arms on the table etc...But I did feel that certain families had
very set rules and sometimes what was okay in my family either made me
feel like a "heel" in someone elses or made me think ill thoughts of
them.
*sigh* we sure do put alot of "expectations on people don't we? And
many times we don't think twice about them.
sharon
________________________________________________________________
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Visit www.juno.com
Hope you don't mind my asking but how old are you both? I ask because
this sounds more like my sister's generation. She is almost
50.....Reminds me of the not wearing white until a certain date. Making
sure that you crossed your feet at the ankles instead of at the knee,
making sure you had gloves,purse and hat all matching... sounds old
huh?(Actually it isn't as I am 41 and we have our own set of "rules") The
picture I get is Jaqueline Kennedy...wasn't she the example to follow
then?
As you both shared I could see that there are alot of "manners" that
don't really have a purpose. How many people are offended by sucking ice
cubes when you drink (no offense Nancy...it just seemed funny), having
your arms on the table etc...But I did feel that certain families had
very set rules and sometimes what was okay in my family either made me
feel like a "heel" in someone elses or made me think ill thoughts of
them.
*sigh* we sure do put alot of "expectations on people don't we? And
many times we don't think twice about them.
sharon
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 11:31:13 AM Central Daylight Time,
meplusfive@... writes:
thing to have rules like how to dress and sit or have good table manners. Its
another thing to have it smacked into you.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
meplusfive@... writes:
> Nancy and Beth,I will be 29 here in a few weeks, my Dad will be 56 a week after. Its one
>
> Hope you don't mind my asking but how old are you both? I ask because
> this sounds more like my sister's generation. She is almost
> 50.....Reminds me of the not wearing white until a certain date. Making
> sure that you crossed your feet at the ankles instead of at the knee,
> making sure you had gloves,purse and hat all matching... sounds old
> huh?(Actually it isn't as I am 41 and we have our own set of "rules") The
> picture I get is Jaqueline Kennedy...wasn't she the example to follow
> then?
>
thing to have rules like how to dress and sit or have good table manners. Its
another thing to have it smacked into you.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 4:18:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Dnowens@...
writes:
my oldest daughter sob at the table...she must have been 3 at the
most....because she wasn't sitting properly. Not a proud parenting moment
and not one I ever repeated.
My dad had rules for everything from how to shut a door to how to walk across
the floor. Sadly, I truly empathize with your sister. It took me
a long, long time to realize that there wasn't a "right" way to do laundry or
clean or turn on the stupid television.
Fortunately, we can un-learn that kind of garbage!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Crap. Is your Dad's name William? I forgot about not letting the ice in yourNo, John. But maybe they were long lost brothers? I'll never forget making
>
> glass clink around too much. I'm crying now.
>
> ~Nancy
>
>
my oldest daughter sob at the table...she must have been 3 at the
most....because she wasn't sitting properly. Not a proud parenting moment
and not one I ever repeated.
My dad had rules for everything from how to shut a door to how to walk across
the floor. Sadly, I truly empathize with your sister. It took me
a long, long time to realize that there wasn't a "right" way to do laundry or
clean or turn on the stupid television.
Fortunately, we can un-learn that kind of garbage!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 4:31:13 PM !!!First Boot!!!, meplusfive@...
writes:
had white gloves, I admit to still having an "OMG, what are you thinking"
response to anyone wearing white before Easter or after Labor Day.......I can
change - really I can :)
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Hope you don't mind my asking but how old are you both?I'm 46. Maybe you're right about the generational thing. Although I never
had white gloves, I admit to still having an "OMG, what are you thinking"
response to anyone wearing white before Easter or after Labor Day.......I can
change - really I can :)
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
On 25 Oct 02, at 13:11, EBA7009@... wrote:
never heard of that.
Shyrley the bemused
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
> In a message dated 10/25/02 4:31:13 PM !!!First Boot!!!,Is this an American thing? Only to wear white in the summer? I've
> meplusfive@... writes:
>
>
> > Hope you don't mind my asking but how old are you both?
>
> I'm 46. Maybe you're right about the generational thing. Although I
> never had white gloves, I admit to still having an "OMG, what are you
> thinking" response to anyone wearing white before Easter or after
> Labor Day.......I can change - really I can :)
>
> Beth
>
never heard of that.
Shyrley the bemused
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Test your color cultural etiquette:
http://library.thinkquest.org/50065/psych/meanact.html
http://library.thinkquest.org/50065/psych/meanact.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shyrley" <shyrley.williams@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: shift in thinking (got a
bit -make that very- lo...
Is this an American thing? Only to wear white in the summer?
I've
| never heard of that.
|
| Shyrley the bemused
|
|
| "You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because
you are all the same."
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 12:03:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
meplusfive@... writes:
so creepy! That is why I say its like the abuse I suffered still effects my
kids. Sometimes I feel like it comes out of my pores. I can't even wash it
off.
mine! <g>
myself to relax, to breathe, and my Dad is in my head saying *kids shouldn't
act like that! If those were mine... You should smack them into next week*
~Nancy who's father has taken permanent residence in a corner of her brain.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
meplusfive@... writes:
> Nancy,I am sure she has picked up things just by seeing what I do. That's what is
> I can surely relate to your post.
> But is it possible that you have modeled the way you do things and your
> daughter has picked up on it? she is with you most of the time it sounds
> like and would have picked up your way.
> Just a thought!
so creepy! That is why I say its like the abuse I suffered still effects my
kids. Sometimes I feel like it comes out of my pores. I can't even wash it
off.
> <Snip>I think that was Ren's Dad who suggested that to her. It certainly wasn't
> I love the idea of picking up the child that I am angry with. Talk
> about wisdom!!!! Your dad really has something there.
mine! <g>
>Ahh the tapes! The kids are doing something, I am getting frustrated, I tell
> Does anyone else have "tapes" that seem to play in your mind of what
> you should do (because of what you have heard,seen or been told to do by
> friends or family)? And you have to deal with that as well as your own
> feelings and the issue at hand?
>
> sharon
myself to relax, to breathe, and my Dad is in my head saying *kids shouldn't
act like that! If those were mine... You should smack them into next week*
~Nancy who's father has taken permanent residence in a corner of her brain.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 5:54:58 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
shyrley.williams@... writes:
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shyrley.williams@... writes:
> Is this an American thing? Only to wear white in the summer? I'veHmmm, could be. Tell ya the truth, I never noticed!
> never heard of that.
>
> Shyrley the bemused
>
>
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 6:54:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!, freeform@...
writes:
any Moslem child so much as harshly spoken to. Of course, this was all in
public but I remember thinking at the time how wonderful it was to see
parents treat their children so well! Especially the fathers. They seemed
so gentle to their children!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> My friend'sWe lived in Saudi Arabia for a couple of years and I don't ever recall seeing
> beliefs were that children were born good, and until they were 6 or so,
> that didn't understand that they were doing wrong and therefore shouldn't
> be punished.
any Moslem child so much as harshly spoken to. Of course, this was all in
public but I remember thinking at the time how wonderful it was to see
parents treat their children so well! Especially the fathers. They seemed
so gentle to their children!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 6:55:23 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Dnowens@...
writes:
those old tapes would play, I'd think "gee, thanks dad for reminding what
NOT to do"! It helped!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> ~Nancy who's father has taken permanent residence in a corner of her brain.Nah, he can be evicted and/or banished. For a long time, whenever one of
>
those old tapes would play, I'd think "gee, thanks dad for reminding what
NOT to do"! It helped!
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 9:56:12 AM, Dnowens@... writes:
<< I ask this because, unlike you, I used to
spank and I still find there are times when I have to stop, remind myself how
unfair I used to think things were in my house. >>
I still do that sometimes. And sometimes I say "My mom would have spanked me
for that, so it's hard for me not to see you do that and get kind of
agitated." (or whatever)
Just today I was really angry with Holly, so I asked her to go and check
whether the back gate was locked. Kirby had gone out, to walk to work (since
I can't take him) and I wanted her to make sure it was locked. But I mostly
wanted her to go for a walk outside and breathe. While she was out I told
Marty, "Marty I'm really angry with Holly, so much I felt like hitting her.
Help me!"
Marty said, "Okay, you want to hit me?"
I said no, that I just wanted him to talk to me to help me figure out how to
solve the afternoon's social problems.
Holly was supposed to go to a movie with some teenaged girls, homeschoolers.
Another homeschooling family invited her over at 3:00, for just a while. She
didn't know yet whether they were going to the 4:30 or 7:00 show. She was
very indecisive, and as the mom was calling me from some phone somewhere and
I couldn't call her back, Holly said okay. Then she started whimpering and
whining and saying she also wanted to go swimming with her dad at 6:00. So
marty called and found out the movie was at 4:30. So we can cancel the one
playdate, she can go to the 4:30 movie and then swim with her dad. Then she
starts whining that she really wants to play at 3:00.
It was the whining and pouting and hitting the floor that was bugging me the
most. The embarrassment of having to tell this other really nice family that
Holly wasn't able to go after all (they're going to come pick her up).
It wasn't a horrible big deal, but my mother's spirit came into me and wanted
to tell Holly to go to her room, she couldn't go anywhere.
But that's stupid, and not a solution.
So we discussed (Marty and I, in front of Holly who was pouting) what all the
factors were. It's really not a huge problem. The family won't be crushed
about Holly not playing; they had some stuff to pick up here anyway, and it's
just a very few miles out of their way.
Turns out after the movie the girls are going to the mall, and so she
cancelled swimming with her dad.
All my angst and frustration was MINE! (Mine and my mom's.)
What made the difference was me thinking "How important is it?" And seeing
that Marty wasn't the least bit agitated, even though there was a time that
he was in on the movie plan and he can't go.
Holly will see her friend for probably half an hour this afternoon and then
NOT go home with them. She can show her her new room (my old office) and I
can talk to the mom.
Too long, but freesh evidence that the urge to smite still comes upon me.
Sandra
<< I ask this because, unlike you, I used to
spank and I still find there are times when I have to stop, remind myself how
unfair I used to think things were in my house. >>
I still do that sometimes. And sometimes I say "My mom would have spanked me
for that, so it's hard for me not to see you do that and get kind of
agitated." (or whatever)
Just today I was really angry with Holly, so I asked her to go and check
whether the back gate was locked. Kirby had gone out, to walk to work (since
I can't take him) and I wanted her to make sure it was locked. But I mostly
wanted her to go for a walk outside and breathe. While she was out I told
Marty, "Marty I'm really angry with Holly, so much I felt like hitting her.
Help me!"
Marty said, "Okay, you want to hit me?"
I said no, that I just wanted him to talk to me to help me figure out how to
solve the afternoon's social problems.
Holly was supposed to go to a movie with some teenaged girls, homeschoolers.
Another homeschooling family invited her over at 3:00, for just a while. She
didn't know yet whether they were going to the 4:30 or 7:00 show. She was
very indecisive, and as the mom was calling me from some phone somewhere and
I couldn't call her back, Holly said okay. Then she started whimpering and
whining and saying she also wanted to go swimming with her dad at 6:00. So
marty called and found out the movie was at 4:30. So we can cancel the one
playdate, she can go to the 4:30 movie and then swim with her dad. Then she
starts whining that she really wants to play at 3:00.
It was the whining and pouting and hitting the floor that was bugging me the
most. The embarrassment of having to tell this other really nice family that
Holly wasn't able to go after all (they're going to come pick her up).
It wasn't a horrible big deal, but my mother's spirit came into me and wanted
to tell Holly to go to her room, she couldn't go anywhere.
But that's stupid, and not a solution.
So we discussed (Marty and I, in front of Holly who was pouting) what all the
factors were. It's really not a huge problem. The family won't be crushed
about Holly not playing; they had some stuff to pick up here anyway, and it's
just a very few miles out of their way.
Turns out after the movie the girls are going to the mall, and so she
cancelled swimming with her dad.
All my angst and frustration was MINE! (Mine and my mom's.)
What made the difference was me thinking "How important is it?" And seeing
that Marty wasn't the least bit agitated, even though there was a time that
he was in on the movie plan and he can't go.
Holly will see her friend for probably half an hour this afternoon and then
NOT go home with them. She can show her her new room (my old office) and I
can talk to the mom.
Too long, but freesh evidence that the urge to smite still comes upon me.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 11:03:08 AM, meplusfive@... writes:
<< I have struggled with these issues too. I may not spank but if I yell
is that "better"? If I get to where I don't yell but I shame them
verbally is that "better"? If I don't shame them verbally but I give the
"look" is that better? I feel like I am failing...but my family tells me
that I am "learning" and these are the baby steps to doing it "better". >>
I'm a firm believer in getting better incrementally if you can't jump all the
way to the ultimate goal. Yes, verbal shaming is a step away from hitting.
And once you feel bad about that, you can try another thing when those tapes
play.
Richard Prystowsky, in the Peaceful Parenting talk said something about tapes
in your head. One teacher told him you can never get rid of them entirely,
but you can turn down the volume.
What I do is I have the taped response to go with it. "YES, but you didn't
have to do that." or "But it's not that important." So I think my mom's
words, and then I include my own. Then I feel better.
Sandra
<< I have struggled with these issues too. I may not spank but if I yell
is that "better"? If I get to where I don't yell but I shame them
verbally is that "better"? If I don't shame them verbally but I give the
"look" is that better? I feel like I am failing...but my family tells me
that I am "learning" and these are the baby steps to doing it "better". >>
I'm a firm believer in getting better incrementally if you can't jump all the
way to the ultimate goal. Yes, verbal shaming is a step away from hitting.
And once you feel bad about that, you can try another thing when those tapes
play.
Richard Prystowsky, in the Peaceful Parenting talk said something about tapes
in your head. One teacher told him you can never get rid of them entirely,
but you can turn down the volume.
What I do is I have the taped response to go with it. "YES, but you didn't
have to do that." or "But it's not that important." So I think my mom's
words, and then I include my own. Then I feel better.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 1:15:25 PM, EBA7009@... writes:
<< > ~Nancy who's father has taken permanent residence in a corner of her
brain.
those old tapes would play, I'd think "gee, thanks dad for reminding what
NOT to do"! It helped! >>
Can he at least be wearing a funny hat and holding a party honker that
doesn't work?
Sandra
<< > ~Nancy who's father has taken permanent residence in a corner of her
brain.
>Nah, he can be evicted and/or banished. For a long time, whenever one of
those old tapes would play, I'd think "gee, thanks dad for reminding what
NOT to do"! It helped! >>
Can he at least be wearing a funny hat and holding a party honker that
doesn't work?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 10:19:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!, SandraDodd@...
writes:
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
>Yup, I think the funny nose/glasses/moustache combination works, too!
> Can he at least be wearing a funny hat and holding a party honker that
> doesn't work?
>
> Sandra
>
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***Marty said, "Okay, you want to hit me?"***
<G> What a cool kid!
Deb L
<G> What a cool kid!
Deb L
Robyn Coburn
<<When you say that you sometimes think *My Mom would have hit me for
this* is it at times when Jayn is doing something and you are frustrated
and have to think before you act? Or are you just watching Jayn,
thinking, but not in the least upset? (makes no sense? <g>)>>
Nancy - both.
Thank you for your post.
Robyn Coburn
this* is it at times when Jayn is doing something and you are frustrated
and have to think before you act? Or are you just watching Jayn,
thinking, but not in the least upset? (makes no sense? <g>)>>
Nancy - both.
Thank you for your post.
Robyn Coburn
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Kelli Traaseth
Nancy, yes I go through this too,
I read this and tears run down my face,
I had the same experience, not so much physical abuse on the controling side but verbal and emotional. I was lucky my parents were older when they got to me, my older siblings got the physical abuse.
In this new life for us, (unschooling) it is really opening my eyes to how different my family lived, compared to many. I thought that was the right way to parent. My mother would still argue that we are just helping our children see what it right. How to eat, what to say, how to react, etc...
I never knew how to do those things. She never let me figure it out.
Now it's very hard to let those things go and it definitely comes into conflict with new ideas (new ideas to me anyway) such as attachment parenting, the continuum concept and peaceful/joyful parenting. For me, I know I have to try and seperate my childhood feelings/sadness from how I react to my children. I believe that this is my biggest hurdle. If I am completely rested and feeling healthy, I do pretty well at it. But yet on the other hand if I am feeling the way I am right now how I did last night, I fail miserably at it!! What happens with me also is when I'm around my family, my parents especially, I fall back into those feelings. Hence then I come back home and yuck! Slap on top of that a bad cold and my period and I think its a recipe for disaster!! ( Ok this is probably more info than needed, but that's me, sorry)
Remember, Tia, what you said, many things are very cyclical!
Anyway, Nancy, I know what you are going through, I'm just glad that we have found this way of life and with the help and support of others we can lick these unhealthy/dysfunctional behaviors.
If you ever need to vent like I do, go ahead and e-mail me.
I know some of you will wonder where this comes into unschooling, but for those of us who grew up this way, its much harder to live a free, joyful life and to me that is what unschooling can be.
Thanks for being here, everyone!
Kelli
Dnowens@... wrote:In a message dated 10/25/02 7:40:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
This is long and full of some much needed venting, so skip if you need to.
When you say that you sometimes think *My Mom would have hit me for this* is
it at times when Jayn is doing something and you are frustrated and have to
think before you act? Or are you just watching Jayn, thinking, but not in the
least upset? (makes no sense? <g>) I ask this because, unlike you, I used to
spank and I still find there are times when I have to stop, remind myself how
unfair I used to think things were in my house. How much I hated the belt,
the spoon, the hand, my parents. And remind myself that I am not going to
take my anger at a perceived situation and turn into that wild woman I once
saw in the mirror.
Many times I have to remind myself that the ideas I have about how children
should act come from being hit, or even just the looks. I'm not exaggerating
when I say that I could eat too loud, breath the wrong way, sit the wrong way
and get a nasty look or a pinch or a slap. I remember too many colds, not
being able to breath through my stuffed up nose and forcing myself not to
breath through my mouth, cause *mouth breathers look like retarded dopes*. I
remember sitting at the table with a plate of food being taught how to eat.
You keep one hand in your lap, you take a fork of food and put it in your
mouth. You close your mouth, but not your teeth, around the food. You take
the food off the fork, but don't scrape your teeth on the fork and make an
irritating noise. You slide the fork out of your mouth, without opening your
lips too far, making sure your teeth don't make any noise, then you set your
fork down and chew, making sure not to open your mouth. Eating chips was pure
terror. No noise. I remember eating a chip very slowly to keep from getting
smacked. There were ways to dust, to vacuum, to make a bed, to eat, to wash
dishes, to set a thermostat, to put pillows on a couch...
Last Thanksgiving Darin was in the kitchen with my Mom, Sister and me and he
asked if there really was a right and wrong way to do dishes. My Dad and
Brother walked in just then and my whole family just looked at him. I looked
at Darin, shrugged my shoulders and said, I told you so. He understands me
now when I sit at a table and cry just to keep myself from saying something
to the kids about how they are eating.
My Sister called me a month or so ago, crying. She had just moved to
Pennsylvania, just gotten married, and was trying to set her new husband's
kitchen in order. She had taken everything out of the cabinets, washed every
single cup, fork, cookie sheet and bowl and put everything away. She had
stacked all the dry goods up in the *right* order, placed all the cans on the
shelves in the *correct* place. That evening, her husband did the dishes *all
wrong* and then put them away with no regard to how Renee' had organized
everything. They didn't have a fight, but he couldn't get her to understand
that it was okay if he put a bowl on top of plates. He put some groceries
away and he just stacked the cans in the cabinet. She called, crying and the
first words out of her mouth were "Aren't the cans of green beans supposed to
all be together? Doesn't the cereal all have to be stacked in order of box
size?" She was frantic. She wanted me to tell her new husband that he did it
all wrong, that there was a right way to do things, to explain it to him, to
make him understand. But what I heard was a terrified little girl.
I thought I had avoided passing some of this crap onto my kids. I have never
said to anyone how to wash a dish, or put things away in a certain order. I
was wrong, I didn't have to. Actions speak volumes. Moly was washing dishes
the other night and Darin went in and asked her if she wanted help. She said
sure, you wash, I'll dry. So they were going about it and about 5 minutes
later, she came into me and said, "Daddy's washing the dishes in the wrong
order." Darin laughed and said to me that she is just like me! Then he told
me that when I was gone for a week last summer, she had helped him with the
groceries and they were putting things away and she put things in the cabinet
just like I did. He said she dusts like me, folds clothes like me... I
couldn't believe it. Sometimes I really feel like I haven't escaped all that
abuse, and I have passed it on through my genes or something. Its like ugly
cold fingers that have reached past my efforts to keep my kids safe and
touched them despite me. I really hate that. Does anyone who has made it to
the end of my long post, go through this too? I hope not.
Thanks,
~Nancy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I read this and tears run down my face,
I had the same experience, not so much physical abuse on the controling side but verbal and emotional. I was lucky my parents were older when they got to me, my older siblings got the physical abuse.
In this new life for us, (unschooling) it is really opening my eyes to how different my family lived, compared to many. I thought that was the right way to parent. My mother would still argue that we are just helping our children see what it right. How to eat, what to say, how to react, etc...
I never knew how to do those things. She never let me figure it out.
Now it's very hard to let those things go and it definitely comes into conflict with new ideas (new ideas to me anyway) such as attachment parenting, the continuum concept and peaceful/joyful parenting. For me, I know I have to try and seperate my childhood feelings/sadness from how I react to my children. I believe that this is my biggest hurdle. If I am completely rested and feeling healthy, I do pretty well at it. But yet on the other hand if I am feeling the way I am right now how I did last night, I fail miserably at it!! What happens with me also is when I'm around my family, my parents especially, I fall back into those feelings. Hence then I come back home and yuck! Slap on top of that a bad cold and my period and I think its a recipe for disaster!! ( Ok this is probably more info than needed, but that's me, sorry)
Remember, Tia, what you said, many things are very cyclical!
Anyway, Nancy, I know what you are going through, I'm just glad that we have found this way of life and with the help and support of others we can lick these unhealthy/dysfunctional behaviors.
If you ever need to vent like I do, go ahead and e-mail me.
I know some of you will wonder where this comes into unschooling, but for those of us who grew up this way, its much harder to live a free, joyful life and to me that is what unschooling can be.
Thanks for being here, everyone!
Kelli
Dnowens@... wrote:In a message dated 10/25/02 7:40:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
> As Jayn grows older I frequently have moments of almost out of bodyGod Robin! What a great post!
> schism when I suddenly think "Mum would have hit me if I had been doing
> this". It could be something as simple as making a mess with water.
> These realizations make it hard for me to accept her apology in my
> heart. She said to me, "I felt about you the way you feel about Jayn".
> There must have been something in my face, because her next words were
> "you don't believe me". I don't. If she had felt the way I do, she
> couldn't have done it. A thousand generations of abuse and fury. Well it
> stops here: the chain is broken. I am the bulwark against the teeming
> rages of my family history. There is nothing that Jayn could ever do
> that would cause me to spank her, or believe she deserved to be spanked.
>
> With gratitude,
>
> Robyn Coburn
This is long and full of some much needed venting, so skip if you need to.
When you say that you sometimes think *My Mom would have hit me for this* is
it at times when Jayn is doing something and you are frustrated and have to
think before you act? Or are you just watching Jayn, thinking, but not in the
least upset? (makes no sense? <g>) I ask this because, unlike you, I used to
spank and I still find there are times when I have to stop, remind myself how
unfair I used to think things were in my house. How much I hated the belt,
the spoon, the hand, my parents. And remind myself that I am not going to
take my anger at a perceived situation and turn into that wild woman I once
saw in the mirror.
Many times I have to remind myself that the ideas I have about how children
should act come from being hit, or even just the looks. I'm not exaggerating
when I say that I could eat too loud, breath the wrong way, sit the wrong way
and get a nasty look or a pinch or a slap. I remember too many colds, not
being able to breath through my stuffed up nose and forcing myself not to
breath through my mouth, cause *mouth breathers look like retarded dopes*. I
remember sitting at the table with a plate of food being taught how to eat.
You keep one hand in your lap, you take a fork of food and put it in your
mouth. You close your mouth, but not your teeth, around the food. You take
the food off the fork, but don't scrape your teeth on the fork and make an
irritating noise. You slide the fork out of your mouth, without opening your
lips too far, making sure your teeth don't make any noise, then you set your
fork down and chew, making sure not to open your mouth. Eating chips was pure
terror. No noise. I remember eating a chip very slowly to keep from getting
smacked. There were ways to dust, to vacuum, to make a bed, to eat, to wash
dishes, to set a thermostat, to put pillows on a couch...
Last Thanksgiving Darin was in the kitchen with my Mom, Sister and me and he
asked if there really was a right and wrong way to do dishes. My Dad and
Brother walked in just then and my whole family just looked at him. I looked
at Darin, shrugged my shoulders and said, I told you so. He understands me
now when I sit at a table and cry just to keep myself from saying something
to the kids about how they are eating.
My Sister called me a month or so ago, crying. She had just moved to
Pennsylvania, just gotten married, and was trying to set her new husband's
kitchen in order. She had taken everything out of the cabinets, washed every
single cup, fork, cookie sheet and bowl and put everything away. She had
stacked all the dry goods up in the *right* order, placed all the cans on the
shelves in the *correct* place. That evening, her husband did the dishes *all
wrong* and then put them away with no regard to how Renee' had organized
everything. They didn't have a fight, but he couldn't get her to understand
that it was okay if he put a bowl on top of plates. He put some groceries
away and he just stacked the cans in the cabinet. She called, crying and the
first words out of her mouth were "Aren't the cans of green beans supposed to
all be together? Doesn't the cereal all have to be stacked in order of box
size?" She was frantic. She wanted me to tell her new husband that he did it
all wrong, that there was a right way to do things, to explain it to him, to
make him understand. But what I heard was a terrified little girl.
I thought I had avoided passing some of this crap onto my kids. I have never
said to anyone how to wash a dish, or put things away in a certain order. I
was wrong, I didn't have to. Actions speak volumes. Moly was washing dishes
the other night and Darin went in and asked her if she wanted help. She said
sure, you wash, I'll dry. So they were going about it and about 5 minutes
later, she came into me and said, "Daddy's washing the dishes in the wrong
order." Darin laughed and said to me that she is just like me! Then he told
me that when I was gone for a week last summer, she had helped him with the
groceries and they were putting things away and she put things in the cabinet
just like I did. He said she dusts like me, folds clothes like me... I
couldn't believe it. Sometimes I really feel like I haven't escaped all that
abuse, and I have passed it on through my genes or something. Its like ugly
cold fingers that have reached past my efforts to keep my kids safe and
touched them despite me. I really hate that. Does anyone who has made it to
the end of my long post, go through this too? I hope not.
Thanks,
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
Sharon, Hope you don't mind me answering, (I'm not Nancy or Beth)
My siblings are in their 40's and I'm 34 and also have these same issues.
Kelli
james e thomas <meplusfive@...> wrote:Nancy and Beth,
Hope you don't mind my asking but how old are you both? I ask because
this sounds more like my sister's generation. She is almost
50.....Reminds me of the not wearing white until a certain date. Making
sure that you crossed your feet at the ankles instead of at the knee,
making sure you had gloves,purse and hat all matching... sounds old
huh?(Actually it isn't as I am 41 and we have our own set of "rules") The
picture I get is Jaqueline Kennedy...wasn't she the example to follow
then?
As you both shared I could see that there are alot of "manners" that
don't really have a purpose. How many people are offended by sucking ice
cubes when you drink (no offense Nancy...it just seemed funny), having
your arms on the table etc...But I did feel that certain families had
very set rules and sometimes what was okay in my family either made me
feel like a "heel" in someone elses or made me think ill thoughts of
them.
*sigh* we sure do put alot of "expectations on people don't we? And
many times we don't think twice about them.
sharon
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My siblings are in their 40's and I'm 34 and also have these same issues.
Kelli
james e thomas <meplusfive@...> wrote:Nancy and Beth,
Hope you don't mind my asking but how old are you both? I ask because
this sounds more like my sister's generation. She is almost
50.....Reminds me of the not wearing white until a certain date. Making
sure that you crossed your feet at the ankles instead of at the knee,
making sure you had gloves,purse and hat all matching... sounds old
huh?(Actually it isn't as I am 41 and we have our own set of "rules") The
picture I get is Jaqueline Kennedy...wasn't she the example to follow
then?
As you both shared I could see that there are alot of "manners" that
don't really have a purpose. How many people are offended by sucking ice
cubes when you drink (no offense Nancy...it just seemed funny), having
your arms on the table etc...But I did feel that certain families had
very set rules and sometimes what was okay in my family either made me
feel like a "heel" in someone elses or made me think ill thoughts of
them.
*sigh* we sure do put alot of "expectations on people don't we? And
many times we don't think twice about them.
sharon
________________________________________________________________
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
SandraDodd@... writes:
worked together on my son's urge to hit when he was hurt or angry. he's hit
in anger and I would hold out my arm and say "Ok, you want to hit my arm for
a while?" At first he said yes and did. But not hard. And then he just
stopped, sort of wound down. We used to say "stop and think" but this
approach was much better. Because, I suppose, in the throes of angst,
stopping and thinking is the last thing you want to do. My son is only four,
but he taught me a valuable lesson with this.
Elizabeth
> Marty said, "Okay, you want to hit me?I think Marty is a great guy! And his response to you is exactly how we
worked together on my son's urge to hit when he was hurt or angry. he's hit
in anger and I would hold out my arm and say "Ok, you want to hit my arm for
a while?" At first he said yes and did. But not hard. And then he just
stopped, sort of wound down. We used to say "stop and think" but this
approach was much better. Because, I suppose, in the throes of angst,
stopping and thinking is the last thing you want to do. My son is only four,
but he taught me a valuable lesson with this.
Elizabeth
[email protected]
Robyn-
You are my hero! You have worked so hard to get where you are, to have such
a wonderful relationship with your daughter and to work at having one with
your mother. You have put so beautifully into words what has clearly been a
lifelong struggle for you and chosen to share it with a group of people ready
to learn from you.
Thank you.
Elizabeth
You are my hero! You have worked so hard to get where you are, to have such
a wonderful relationship with your daughter and to work at having one with
your mother. You have put so beautifully into words what has clearly been a
lifelong struggle for you and chosen to share it with a group of people ready
to learn from you.
Thank you.
Elizabeth
Robyn Coburn
Well thank you, Elizabeth, but I don't feel like a hero. I think anyone
that has more than one child in the family at a time is an immense hero.
Also, I feel like I have a long way to go with my poor mother. There is
a lot of ambivalence in my feelings towards her. She had a ruptured
brain aneurism earlier this year, was not expected to live, and is now
virtually normal. A true miracle of survival. She also seems much
happier, and grateful for everything in her life now.
Robyn Coburn.
<<You are my hero! You have worked so hard to get where you are, to
have such
a wonderful relationship with your daughter and to work at having one
with
your mother. You have put so beautifully into words what has clearly
been a
lifelong struggle for you and chosen to share it with a group of people
ready
to learn from you.
Thank you.
Elizabeth>>
that has more than one child in the family at a time is an immense hero.
Also, I feel like I have a long way to go with my poor mother. There is
a lot of ambivalence in my feelings towards her. She had a ruptured
brain aneurism earlier this year, was not expected to live, and is now
virtually normal. A true miracle of survival. She also seems much
happier, and grateful for everything in her life now.
Robyn Coburn.
<<You are my hero! You have worked so hard to get where you are, to
have such
a wonderful relationship with your daughter and to work at having one
with
your mother. You have put so beautifully into words what has clearly
been a
lifelong struggle for you and chosen to share it with a group of people
ready
to learn from you.
Thank you.
Elizabeth>>
Tia Leschke
>didn't
> What I do is I have the taped response to go with it. "YES, but you
> have to do that." or "But it's not that important." So I think my mom'sSomething that I do with paranoid thoughts (He's late. I wonder if he's had
> words, and then I include my own. Then I feel better.
an accident, etc. etc.) is to put a picture of the thought in a circle and
then draw a diagonal line through it, the international symbol for "don't do
this". It seems to help and might with the parenting tapes. Maybe visual
people would find this works and oral people could follow Sandra's
suggestion.
Tia