Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] more and more abuse
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/2002 10:49:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
husband's families believe in spanking. My sister-in-law even has a 'pankin'
'poon that she uses on her boys. They DON'T necessarily know the situation
best. They wouldn't bat an eye if we raised our hands to our boys---they'd be
nodding in agreement! And be picking the switches for us!
It's NOT GOING TO GO AWAY if all the family members believe it's the right
thing to do! CAN'T YOU TWO SEE THIS????
If "the village" believes that abuse is fine, IT WILL HAPPEN!
If one family abuses and the village says they're wrong to do it, it MAY
stop.
But if Mommy was spanked and Daddy was spanked (as well as the grands and the
aunts and uncles of that extended family you two think are so important), and
they turned out just fine (and well-behaved after the spanking---right,
Mike?), WHAT'S TO STOP THEM? THAT VILLAGE???????
Yes, the capital letters mean I'm SHOUTING!!!!!
It's hard for me to believe you two would show up at an unschooling list to
advocate spanking----and DON'T TELL ME YOU'RE NOT! It's obvious to everyone
here but the two of you that we think children (ALL CHILDREN) deserve the
same respect you'd give another adult. What you're advocating DOESN'T DO
THAT!
They become property. And property that belongs to the "village". Foxes
guarding the hen house. If everyone close to the children thinks that
spanking's OK, IT WILL HAPPEN! None of them will step in to protect the
youngest and most vulnerable. And mental hurt is hurt too. Pain is pain---it
doesn't have to be physical.
We've chosen to remove ourselves and our boys from that family village you
think should intervene (but WON'T). We've made out own community of
like-minded people who value children as young humans, not grubs. All my
friends speak respectfully to my boys (well, John Tudor doesn't do a very
good job in a crowd, but he's great one-on-one! <G>) and treat them as they
would like to be treated. My boys are JUST as respectful in return.
We're telling you things that WORK and that are gentle and kind and joyful
and giving and sweet. You're saying, yeah, but spanking works too---for some
people (because they're the parents) and we shouldn't interfere. You're on an
UNSCHOOLING LIST!
As Sandra said, there are lists that will agree with you. THIS ONE WON'T
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> With you, I agree that the ideal solution is a close family orThe "ideal solution" of a close family is basically a crock! Both my and my
> community of friends. They know the situation best and when to step
> in. In this case, the "it takes a village" should come into play.
>
husband's families believe in spanking. My sister-in-law even has a 'pankin'
'poon that she uses on her boys. They DON'T necessarily know the situation
best. They wouldn't bat an eye if we raised our hands to our boys---they'd be
nodding in agreement! And be picking the switches for us!
It's NOT GOING TO GO AWAY if all the family members believe it's the right
thing to do! CAN'T YOU TWO SEE THIS????
If "the village" believes that abuse is fine, IT WILL HAPPEN!
If one family abuses and the village says they're wrong to do it, it MAY
stop.
But if Mommy was spanked and Daddy was spanked (as well as the grands and the
aunts and uncles of that extended family you two think are so important), and
they turned out just fine (and well-behaved after the spanking---right,
Mike?), WHAT'S TO STOP THEM? THAT VILLAGE???????
Yes, the capital letters mean I'm SHOUTING!!!!!
It's hard for me to believe you two would show up at an unschooling list to
advocate spanking----and DON'T TELL ME YOU'RE NOT! It's obvious to everyone
here but the two of you that we think children (ALL CHILDREN) deserve the
same respect you'd give another adult. What you're advocating DOESN'T DO
THAT!
They become property. And property that belongs to the "village". Foxes
guarding the hen house. If everyone close to the children thinks that
spanking's OK, IT WILL HAPPEN! None of them will step in to protect the
youngest and most vulnerable. And mental hurt is hurt too. Pain is pain---it
doesn't have to be physical.
We've chosen to remove ourselves and our boys from that family village you
think should intervene (but WON'T). We've made out own community of
like-minded people who value children as young humans, not grubs. All my
friends speak respectfully to my boys (well, John Tudor doesn't do a very
good job in a crowd, but he's great one-on-one! <G>) and treat them as they
would like to be treated. My boys are JUST as respectful in return.
We're telling you things that WORK and that are gentle and kind and joyful
and giving and sweet. You're saying, yeah, but spanking works too---for some
people (because they're the parents) and we shouldn't interfere. You're on an
UNSCHOOLING LIST!
As Sandra said, there are lists that will agree with you. THIS ONE WON'T
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mike Ebbers
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
story and I thought that a more narrow definition of spanking (versus
hitting and beating) would clarify the other side. Now that I've
done my best to unpolarize things, it's OK with me if I was
unsuccessful.
> We're telling you things that WORK and that are gentle and kind andI realize that. I just posted because there is another side to the
>joyful and giving and sweet. You're saying, yeah, but spanking works
>too---for some people (because they're the parents) and we shouldn't
>interfere. You're on an UNSCHOOLING LIST!
> As Sandra said, there are lists that will agree with you. THIS ONE
>WON'T
story and I thought that a more narrow definition of spanking (versus
hitting and beating) would clarify the other side. Now that I've
done my best to unpolarize things, it's OK with me if I was
unsuccessful.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Peggy <peggy@l...> wrote:
>I'll tell you something. A person who grows up spanked and then has
>children and doesn't spank? That takes some work. Doesn't just
>happen. Takes some concentration and effort and awareness. The kind
>of awareness that *knows* with every fiber of their being how
>hitting hurt them when they were young and vulnerable. You don't
>seem to have that awareness and yet we are supposed to believe that
>you don't hit your kids. Sounds like denial to me.
This is an interesting point. I suppose that if a poster (not you)
is abusive to another one by using capital letters and scolding
language (IMHO signalling a lack of respect), that poster can still
expect us to believe that when she turns from her keyboard she will
be sweet, loving, and kind to her kids. Even if they argue with her
or oppose her like Myranda is accused of doing, in that situation she
will also not YELL or scold. She only does it online. Does that
also call for concentration and effort? Or is this scolding streak
ingrained and shows itself more than we think it should?
Mike
Now really tired and obviously cranky
Myranda
OK, um.... why did this also turn into a spanking issue???
From: kbcdlovejo@...
The "ideal solution" of a close family is basically a crock! Both my and my
husband's families believe in spanking. My sister-in-law even has a 'pankin'
'poon that she uses on her boys. They DON'T necessarily know the situation
best. They wouldn't bat an eye if we raised our hands to our boys---they'd be
nodding in agreement! And be picking the switches for us!
It's NOT GOING TO GO AWAY if all the family members believe it's the right
thing to do! CAN'T YOU TWO SEE THIS????
** Can't you see that in any kind of group setting, the youngest generation almost always learns new and better ways to do things, educates the elders about better things, and uses those better practices themselves, and that within a few generations, if that long, families desiring the best for each other and loving each other would have phased out things like spanking, abuse, and many other undersiables? It's true, it happens. Yes, some families prefer to stay stuck in the same ol rut, but even a lot of those would follow the other families' lead after a while. Or maybe not.... not everyone is going to be perfect, no matter what anyone tries to do.
If "the village" believes that abuse is fine, IT WILL HAPPEN!
If one family abuses and the village says they're wrong to do it, it MAY
stop.
But if Mommy was spanked and Daddy was spanked (as well as the grands and the
aunts and uncles of that extended family you two think are so important), and
they turned out just fine (and well-behaved after the spanking---right,
Mike?), WHAT'S TO STOP THEM? THAT VILLAGE???????
** Knowledge will stop them. Give people some credit. Don't assume everyone will just blindly continue doing what their parents and grandparents did. Were you unschooled? Homeschooled? If not, you stepped out of the public school thinking that was your parents' tradition. Others can do the same, others do it every day. Don't be so pessimistic.
Yes, the capital letters mean I'm SHOUTING!!!!!
It's hard for me to believe you two would show up at an unschooling list to
advocate spanking----and DON'T TELL ME YOU'RE NOT!
** I will tell you I'm not, because I'm not. Just because I don't think in the same way as everyone here who thinks they have the right to decide for the entire earth what is right and what is wrong, does not mean I have to stand up and say the same when I am not in agreement with something. I'm not just talking about spanking, it's practically every issue you can think of. I don't think I have the right to make judgements on other people for any issue, and I do believe in people having free choice on any given issue, no matter what my beliefs are about that issue. Get used to it, that's me. I'll state my opinion, I'll answer questions about my opinion, but I'm not going to judge others for their opinion.
It's obvious to everyone
here but the two of you that we think children (ALL CHILDREN) deserve the
same respect you'd give another adult. What you're advocating DOESN'T DO
THAT!
** Nope, my kids get every bit of respect, more actually, that I give adults. That doesn't mean that I believe every parent does so, that doesn't mean that I tell every parent that they should treat their children that way. Again, all I'm advocating is free choice. Why should that automatically mean that parents won't respect their kids? You had a choice, you respect your kids. I had a chioce, I respect mine. Yet you would take away others choice because heaven forbid they make the wrong choice? That's not right.
They become property. And property that belongs to the "village". Foxes
guarding the hen house.
** That's a very pessimistic view. How can you know this? How can you know that families would not put children first? You do. Many others do.
If everyone close to the children thinks that
spanking's OK, IT WILL HAPPEN! None of them will step in to protect the
youngest and most vulnerable. And mental hurt is hurt too. Pain is pain---it
doesn't have to be physical.
** There are not many families you can find that at least one member is not against spanking. Changes will come about. That's been proven in every aspect of society. Have some faith in people's goodness, they're not all big bad abusers running after kids with spoons and belts. Sandra says that spanking isn't that common in the north and west, that's already a big start. If true, then most family groups wouldn't spank, and the others would learn to follow suit.
We've chosen to remove ourselves and our boys from that family village you
think should intervene (but WON'T).
** Maybe you could have brought about changes, if yours had been a family village. It starts with one person, and grows from there.
We've made out own community of
like-minded people who value children as young humans, not grubs. All my
friends speak respectfully to my boys (well, John Tudor doesn't do a very
good job in a crowd, but he's great one-on-one! <G>) and treat them as they
would like to be treated. My boys are JUST as respectful in return.
** That's great! Not everyone has that option. Families should still be the first friends, I believe.
We're telling you things that WORK and that are gentle and kind and joyful
and giving and sweet. You're saying, yeah, but spanking works too---for some
people (because they're the parents) and we shouldn't interfere. You're on an
UNSCHOOLING LIST!
** And I should lie about my opinions just because of the name and type of the list? Unschooling doesn't mean you're better than anyone else, or that you have a responsibility to interfere in anyone else's life. It should mean that you show respect to all people not just ones that are doing things you agree with, and you should know, more than other people even, how damaging it is to be put down and told you're wrong and that you're hurting your kids.
As Sandra said, there are lists that will agree with you. THIS ONE WON'T
Kelly
** I'm not hunting for agreement. I stated my opinion about a post/situation. I listed two examples, I'm not the one who chose to pounce on the spanking one and ignore the unschooling one. I'm sorry to see that so many people here are so closed to people being allowed to make their own choices, and expect everyone's choices to be the "wrong" ones. Where is your faith in people??? Do you all really believe that no one but yourselves can make the right choices???
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: kbcdlovejo@...
The "ideal solution" of a close family is basically a crock! Both my and my
husband's families believe in spanking. My sister-in-law even has a 'pankin'
'poon that she uses on her boys. They DON'T necessarily know the situation
best. They wouldn't bat an eye if we raised our hands to our boys---they'd be
nodding in agreement! And be picking the switches for us!
It's NOT GOING TO GO AWAY if all the family members believe it's the right
thing to do! CAN'T YOU TWO SEE THIS????
** Can't you see that in any kind of group setting, the youngest generation almost always learns new and better ways to do things, educates the elders about better things, and uses those better practices themselves, and that within a few generations, if that long, families desiring the best for each other and loving each other would have phased out things like spanking, abuse, and many other undersiables? It's true, it happens. Yes, some families prefer to stay stuck in the same ol rut, but even a lot of those would follow the other families' lead after a while. Or maybe not.... not everyone is going to be perfect, no matter what anyone tries to do.
If "the village" believes that abuse is fine, IT WILL HAPPEN!
If one family abuses and the village says they're wrong to do it, it MAY
stop.
But if Mommy was spanked and Daddy was spanked (as well as the grands and the
aunts and uncles of that extended family you two think are so important), and
they turned out just fine (and well-behaved after the spanking---right,
Mike?), WHAT'S TO STOP THEM? THAT VILLAGE???????
** Knowledge will stop them. Give people some credit. Don't assume everyone will just blindly continue doing what their parents and grandparents did. Were you unschooled? Homeschooled? If not, you stepped out of the public school thinking that was your parents' tradition. Others can do the same, others do it every day. Don't be so pessimistic.
Yes, the capital letters mean I'm SHOUTING!!!!!
It's hard for me to believe you two would show up at an unschooling list to
advocate spanking----and DON'T TELL ME YOU'RE NOT!
** I will tell you I'm not, because I'm not. Just because I don't think in the same way as everyone here who thinks they have the right to decide for the entire earth what is right and what is wrong, does not mean I have to stand up and say the same when I am not in agreement with something. I'm not just talking about spanking, it's practically every issue you can think of. I don't think I have the right to make judgements on other people for any issue, and I do believe in people having free choice on any given issue, no matter what my beliefs are about that issue. Get used to it, that's me. I'll state my opinion, I'll answer questions about my opinion, but I'm not going to judge others for their opinion.
It's obvious to everyone
here but the two of you that we think children (ALL CHILDREN) deserve the
same respect you'd give another adult. What you're advocating DOESN'T DO
THAT!
** Nope, my kids get every bit of respect, more actually, that I give adults. That doesn't mean that I believe every parent does so, that doesn't mean that I tell every parent that they should treat their children that way. Again, all I'm advocating is free choice. Why should that automatically mean that parents won't respect their kids? You had a choice, you respect your kids. I had a chioce, I respect mine. Yet you would take away others choice because heaven forbid they make the wrong choice? That's not right.
They become property. And property that belongs to the "village". Foxes
guarding the hen house.
** That's a very pessimistic view. How can you know this? How can you know that families would not put children first? You do. Many others do.
If everyone close to the children thinks that
spanking's OK, IT WILL HAPPEN! None of them will step in to protect the
youngest and most vulnerable. And mental hurt is hurt too. Pain is pain---it
doesn't have to be physical.
** There are not many families you can find that at least one member is not against spanking. Changes will come about. That's been proven in every aspect of society. Have some faith in people's goodness, they're not all big bad abusers running after kids with spoons and belts. Sandra says that spanking isn't that common in the north and west, that's already a big start. If true, then most family groups wouldn't spank, and the others would learn to follow suit.
We've chosen to remove ourselves and our boys from that family village you
think should intervene (but WON'T).
** Maybe you could have brought about changes, if yours had been a family village. It starts with one person, and grows from there.
We've made out own community of
like-minded people who value children as young humans, not grubs. All my
friends speak respectfully to my boys (well, John Tudor doesn't do a very
good job in a crowd, but he's great one-on-one! <G>) and treat them as they
would like to be treated. My boys are JUST as respectful in return.
** That's great! Not everyone has that option. Families should still be the first friends, I believe.
We're telling you things that WORK and that are gentle and kind and joyful
and giving and sweet. You're saying, yeah, but spanking works too---for some
people (because they're the parents) and we shouldn't interfere. You're on an
UNSCHOOLING LIST!
** And I should lie about my opinions just because of the name and type of the list? Unschooling doesn't mean you're better than anyone else, or that you have a responsibility to interfere in anyone else's life. It should mean that you show respect to all people not just ones that are doing things you agree with, and you should know, more than other people even, how damaging it is to be put down and told you're wrong and that you're hurting your kids.
As Sandra said, there are lists that will agree with you. THIS ONE WON'T
Kelly
** I'm not hunting for agreement. I stated my opinion about a post/situation. I listed two examples, I'm not the one who chose to pounce on the spanking one and ignore the unschooling one. I'm sorry to see that so many people here are so closed to people being allowed to make their own choices, and expect everyone's choices to be the "wrong" ones. Where is your faith in people??? Do you all really believe that no one but yourselves can make the right choices???
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
Kelly is not being pessimistic, she is being realistic. She is basing what she is saying on documented histories and facts.( and so is Nancy and so is Sandra and so on and so on) These are not just generalizations or conclusions they have drawn! These are things that doctors/educated physicians and counselors have all learned.
Its fine to be an accepting person, that's wonderful and honky dorey, but it doesn't fix anything. Its fine if we all want to live in la-la land. But if there is actual stuff going on it won't stop with us saying "oh, that's just them, they don't know any difference" My parents are just learning to be more compassionate people, their generation spanked, but you know what. If I would have just closed my eyes and said that's the way they are, well,,,,I would never be able to have a close, loving relationship with them. They never knew how my siblings felt just seeing their baby siblings getting spanked. They felt so horrible, these things are just now coming out after 30 to 40 years. Spanking is emotionally depilitating, to both the person getting spanked and to the siblings around that know that it is happening. ( They don't even have to see it, even the implication of someone being spanked.)
We all will have to live with how we treat our children. And I know I want mine to remember good and happy times.
We are all just trying to talk truths and sometimes our life experiences won't allow us to see them as truths.
Take Care,
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:OK, um.... why did this also turn into a spanking issue???
From: kbcdlovejo@...
The "ideal solution" of a close family is basically a crock! Both my and my
husband's families believe in spanking. My sister-in-law even has a 'pankin'
'poon that she uses on her boys. They DON'T necessarily know the situation
best. They wouldn't bat an eye if we raised our hands to our boys---they'd be
nodding in agreement! And be picking the switches for us!
It's NOT GOING TO GO AWAY if all the family members believe it's the right
thing to do! CAN'T YOU TWO SEE THIS????
** Can't you see that in any kind of group setting, the youngest generation almost always learns new and better ways to do things, educates the elders about better things, and uses those better practices themselves, and that within a few generations, if that long, families desiring the best for each other and loving each other would have phased out things like spanking, abuse, and many other undersiables? It's true, it happens. Yes, some families prefer to stay stuck in the same ol rut, but even a lot of those would follow the other families' lead after a while. Or maybe not.... not everyone is going to be perfect, no matter what anyone tries to do.
If "the village" believes that abuse is fine, IT WILL HAPPEN!
If one family abuses and the village says they're wrong to do it, it MAY
stop.
But if Mommy was spanked and Daddy was spanked (as well as the grands and the
aunts and uncles of that extended family you two think are so important), and
they turned out just fine (and well-behaved after the spanking---right,
Mike?), WHAT'S TO STOP THEM? THAT VILLAGE???????
** Knowledge will stop them. Give people some credit. Don't assume everyone will just blindly continue doing what their parents and grandparents did. Were you unschooled? Homeschooled? If not, you stepped out of the public school thinking that was your parents' tradition. Others can do the same, others do it every day. Don't be so pessimistic.
Yes, the capital letters mean I'm SHOUTING!!!!!
It's hard for me to believe you two would show up at an unschooling list to
advocate spanking----and DON'T TELL ME YOU'RE NOT!
** I will tell you I'm not, because I'm not. Just because I don't think in the same way as everyone here who thinks they have the right to decide for the entire earth what is right and what is wrong, does not mean I have to stand up and say the same when I am not in agreement with something. I'm not just talking about spanking, it's practically every issue you can think of. I don't think I have the right to make judgements on other people for any issue, and I do believe in people having free choice on any given issue, no matter what my beliefs are about that issue. Get used to it, that's me. I'll state my opinion, I'll answer questions about my opinion, but I'm not going to judge others for their opinion.
It's obvious to everyone
here but the two of you that we think children (ALL CHILDREN) deserve the
same respect you'd give another adult. What you're advocating DOESN'T DO
THAT!
** Nope, my kids get every bit of respect, more actually, that I give adults. That doesn't mean that I believe every parent does so, that doesn't mean that I tell every parent that they should treat their children that way. Again, all I'm advocating is free choice. Why should that automatically mean that parents won't respect their kids? You had a choice, you respect your kids. I had a chioce, I respect mine. Yet you would take away others choice because heaven forbid they make the wrong choice? That's not right.
They become property. And property that belongs to the "village". Foxes
guarding the hen house.
** That's a very pessimistic view. How can you know this? How can you know that families would not put children first? You do. Many others do.
If everyone close to the children thinks that
spanking's OK, IT WILL HAPPEN! None of them will step in to protect the
youngest and most vulnerable. And mental hurt is hurt too. Pain is pain---it
doesn't have to be physical.
** There are not many families you can find that at least one member is not against spanking. Changes will come about. That's been proven in every aspect of society. Have some faith in people's goodness, they're not all big bad abusers running after kids with spoons and belts. Sandra says that spanking isn't that common in the north and west, that's already a big start. If true, then most family groups wouldn't spank, and the others would learn to follow suit.
We've chosen to remove ourselves and our boys from that family village you
think should intervene (but WON'T).
** Maybe you could have brought about changes, if yours had been a family village. It starts with one person, and grows from there.
We've made out own community of
like-minded people who value children as young humans, not grubs. All my
friends speak respectfully to my boys (well, John Tudor doesn't do a very
good job in a crowd, but he's great one-on-one! <G>) and treat them as they
would like to be treated. My boys are JUST as respectful in return.
** That's great! Not everyone has that option. Families should still be the first friends, I believe.
We're telling you things that WORK and that are gentle and kind and joyful
and giving and sweet. You're saying, yeah, but spanking works too---for some
people (because they're the parents) and we shouldn't interfere. You're on an
UNSCHOOLING LIST!
** And I should lie about my opinions just because of the name and type of the list? Unschooling doesn't mean you're better than anyone else, or that you have a responsibility to interfere in anyone else's life. It should mean that you show respect to all people not just ones that are doing things you agree with, and you should know, more than other people even, how damaging it is to be put down and told you're wrong and that you're hurting your kids.
As Sandra said, there are lists that will agree with you. THIS ONE WON'T
Kelly
** I'm not hunting for agreement. I stated my opinion about a post/situation. I listed two examples, I'm not the one who chose to pounce on the spanking one and ignore the unschooling one. I'm sorry to see that so many people here are so closed to people being allowed to make their own choices, and expect everyone's choices to be the "wrong" ones. Where is your faith in people??? Do you all really believe that no one but yourselves can make the right choices???
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Its fine to be an accepting person, that's wonderful and honky dorey, but it doesn't fix anything. Its fine if we all want to live in la-la land. But if there is actual stuff going on it won't stop with us saying "oh, that's just them, they don't know any difference" My parents are just learning to be more compassionate people, their generation spanked, but you know what. If I would have just closed my eyes and said that's the way they are, well,,,,I would never be able to have a close, loving relationship with them. They never knew how my siblings felt just seeing their baby siblings getting spanked. They felt so horrible, these things are just now coming out after 30 to 40 years. Spanking is emotionally depilitating, to both the person getting spanked and to the siblings around that know that it is happening. ( They don't even have to see it, even the implication of someone being spanked.)
We all will have to live with how we treat our children. And I know I want mine to remember good and happy times.
We are all just trying to talk truths and sometimes our life experiences won't allow us to see them as truths.
Take Care,
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:OK, um.... why did this also turn into a spanking issue???
From: kbcdlovejo@...
The "ideal solution" of a close family is basically a crock! Both my and my
husband's families believe in spanking. My sister-in-law even has a 'pankin'
'poon that she uses on her boys. They DON'T necessarily know the situation
best. They wouldn't bat an eye if we raised our hands to our boys---they'd be
nodding in agreement! And be picking the switches for us!
It's NOT GOING TO GO AWAY if all the family members believe it's the right
thing to do! CAN'T YOU TWO SEE THIS????
** Can't you see that in any kind of group setting, the youngest generation almost always learns new and better ways to do things, educates the elders about better things, and uses those better practices themselves, and that within a few generations, if that long, families desiring the best for each other and loving each other would have phased out things like spanking, abuse, and many other undersiables? It's true, it happens. Yes, some families prefer to stay stuck in the same ol rut, but even a lot of those would follow the other families' lead after a while. Or maybe not.... not everyone is going to be perfect, no matter what anyone tries to do.
If "the village" believes that abuse is fine, IT WILL HAPPEN!
If one family abuses and the village says they're wrong to do it, it MAY
stop.
But if Mommy was spanked and Daddy was spanked (as well as the grands and the
aunts and uncles of that extended family you two think are so important), and
they turned out just fine (and well-behaved after the spanking---right,
Mike?), WHAT'S TO STOP THEM? THAT VILLAGE???????
** Knowledge will stop them. Give people some credit. Don't assume everyone will just blindly continue doing what their parents and grandparents did. Were you unschooled? Homeschooled? If not, you stepped out of the public school thinking that was your parents' tradition. Others can do the same, others do it every day. Don't be so pessimistic.
Yes, the capital letters mean I'm SHOUTING!!!!!
It's hard for me to believe you two would show up at an unschooling list to
advocate spanking----and DON'T TELL ME YOU'RE NOT!
** I will tell you I'm not, because I'm not. Just because I don't think in the same way as everyone here who thinks they have the right to decide for the entire earth what is right and what is wrong, does not mean I have to stand up and say the same when I am not in agreement with something. I'm not just talking about spanking, it's practically every issue you can think of. I don't think I have the right to make judgements on other people for any issue, and I do believe in people having free choice on any given issue, no matter what my beliefs are about that issue. Get used to it, that's me. I'll state my opinion, I'll answer questions about my opinion, but I'm not going to judge others for their opinion.
It's obvious to everyone
here but the two of you that we think children (ALL CHILDREN) deserve the
same respect you'd give another adult. What you're advocating DOESN'T DO
THAT!
** Nope, my kids get every bit of respect, more actually, that I give adults. That doesn't mean that I believe every parent does so, that doesn't mean that I tell every parent that they should treat their children that way. Again, all I'm advocating is free choice. Why should that automatically mean that parents won't respect their kids? You had a choice, you respect your kids. I had a chioce, I respect mine. Yet you would take away others choice because heaven forbid they make the wrong choice? That's not right.
They become property. And property that belongs to the "village". Foxes
guarding the hen house.
** That's a very pessimistic view. How can you know this? How can you know that families would not put children first? You do. Many others do.
If everyone close to the children thinks that
spanking's OK, IT WILL HAPPEN! None of them will step in to protect the
youngest and most vulnerable. And mental hurt is hurt too. Pain is pain---it
doesn't have to be physical.
** There are not many families you can find that at least one member is not against spanking. Changes will come about. That's been proven in every aspect of society. Have some faith in people's goodness, they're not all big bad abusers running after kids with spoons and belts. Sandra says that spanking isn't that common in the north and west, that's already a big start. If true, then most family groups wouldn't spank, and the others would learn to follow suit.
We've chosen to remove ourselves and our boys from that family village you
think should intervene (but WON'T).
** Maybe you could have brought about changes, if yours had been a family village. It starts with one person, and grows from there.
We've made out own community of
like-minded people who value children as young humans, not grubs. All my
friends speak respectfully to my boys (well, John Tudor doesn't do a very
good job in a crowd, but he's great one-on-one! <G>) and treat them as they
would like to be treated. My boys are JUST as respectful in return.
** That's great! Not everyone has that option. Families should still be the first friends, I believe.
We're telling you things that WORK and that are gentle and kind and joyful
and giving and sweet. You're saying, yeah, but spanking works too---for some
people (because they're the parents) and we shouldn't interfere. You're on an
UNSCHOOLING LIST!
** And I should lie about my opinions just because of the name and type of the list? Unschooling doesn't mean you're better than anyone else, or that you have a responsibility to interfere in anyone else's life. It should mean that you show respect to all people not just ones that are doing things you agree with, and you should know, more than other people even, how damaging it is to be put down and told you're wrong and that you're hurting your kids.
As Sandra said, there are lists that will agree with you. THIS ONE WON'T
Kelly
** I'm not hunting for agreement. I stated my opinion about a post/situation. I listed two examples, I'm not the one who chose to pounce on the spanking one and ignore the unschooling one. I'm sorry to see that so many people here are so closed to people being allowed to make their own choices, and expect everyone's choices to be the "wrong" ones. Where is your faith in people??? Do you all really believe that no one but yourselves can make the right choices???
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Kelli Traaseth
Kelly is not being pessimistic, she is being realistic.
** I don't believe that it's realistic to assume that most people will make harmful choices, and will not ever look for better choices and work on changing. Maybe I just don't know the same type people you guys do, but I've moved around all my life and have met a LOT of people.
She is basing what she is saying on documented histories and facts.( and so is Nancy and so is Sandra and so on and so on) These are not just generalizations or conclusions they have drawn!
** I'm confused, which parts of what is being said? I've found quite a bit of documented history and facts that proves that when people work together as a family or small community, good changes do gradually come about, some quicker than others. Yes, I understand that people who were spanked are more likely to spank, and that's been proven and all, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
These are things that doctors/educated physicians and counselors have all learned.
Its fine to be an accepting person, that's wonderful and honky dorey, but it doesn't fix anything.
** Yes, it can. I've "fixed" several things, if you want to call it that, even with my accepting philosophy. My aunt no longer spanks or yells and now stays home with her daughter instead of dropping her off at daycare while she stayed home alone. Two people from a parents list I'm on now homeschool their children, one is unschooling, the other is considering it. One friend no longer allows her mom to keep her son because the mom refused to treat the son right. I could go on and on with the changes that I've helped bring about with a non-invasive, supporting, accepting attitude. It works. People are much more willing to listen and really hear you when you show them respect no matter whether you agree or disagree with their ideas and practices.
Its fine if we all want to live in la-la land. But if there is actual stuff going on it won't stop with us saying "oh, that's just them, they don't know any difference" My parents are just learning to be more compassionate people, their generation spanked, but you know what. If I would have just closed my eyes and said that's the way they are, well,,,,I would never be able to have a close, loving relationship with them.
** That's wonderful that you have that now. But that's your family, you have a right, maybe even a responsibility?, to teach, learn, and move forward with them. That's totally different from waltzing in a stranger's life, making judgemental comments, and waltzing right back out again.
They never knew how my siblings felt just seeing their baby siblings getting spanked. They felt so horrible, these things are just now coming out after 30 to 40 years. Spanking is emotionally depilitating, to both the person getting spanked and to the siblings around that know that it is happening. ( They don't even have to see it, even the implication of someone being spanked.)
We all will have to live with how we treat our children. And I know I want mine to remember good and happy times.
** I definitely agree on this one!!!! Also, I don't want my children to think of me as being judgemental and rude, I want them to see me as compassionate and helpful and kind.
Myranda
We are all just trying to talk truths and sometimes our life experiences won't allow us to see them as truths.
Take Care,
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly is not being pessimistic, she is being realistic.
** I don't believe that it's realistic to assume that most people will make harmful choices, and will not ever look for better choices and work on changing. Maybe I just don't know the same type people you guys do, but I've moved around all my life and have met a LOT of people.
She is basing what she is saying on documented histories and facts.( and so is Nancy and so is Sandra and so on and so on) These are not just generalizations or conclusions they have drawn!
** I'm confused, which parts of what is being said? I've found quite a bit of documented history and facts that proves that when people work together as a family or small community, good changes do gradually come about, some quicker than others. Yes, I understand that people who were spanked are more likely to spank, and that's been proven and all, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
These are things that doctors/educated physicians and counselors have all learned.
Its fine to be an accepting person, that's wonderful and honky dorey, but it doesn't fix anything.
** Yes, it can. I've "fixed" several things, if you want to call it that, even with my accepting philosophy. My aunt no longer spanks or yells and now stays home with her daughter instead of dropping her off at daycare while she stayed home alone. Two people from a parents list I'm on now homeschool their children, one is unschooling, the other is considering it. One friend no longer allows her mom to keep her son because the mom refused to treat the son right. I could go on and on with the changes that I've helped bring about with a non-invasive, supporting, accepting attitude. It works. People are much more willing to listen and really hear you when you show them respect no matter whether you agree or disagree with their ideas and practices.
Its fine if we all want to live in la-la land. But if there is actual stuff going on it won't stop with us saying "oh, that's just them, they don't know any difference" My parents are just learning to be more compassionate people, their generation spanked, but you know what. If I would have just closed my eyes and said that's the way they are, well,,,,I would never be able to have a close, loving relationship with them.
** That's wonderful that you have that now. But that's your family, you have a right, maybe even a responsibility?, to teach, learn, and move forward with them. That's totally different from waltzing in a stranger's life, making judgemental comments, and waltzing right back out again.
They never knew how my siblings felt just seeing their baby siblings getting spanked. They felt so horrible, these things are just now coming out after 30 to 40 years. Spanking is emotionally depilitating, to both the person getting spanked and to the siblings around that know that it is happening. ( They don't even have to see it, even the implication of someone being spanked.)
We all will have to live with how we treat our children. And I know I want mine to remember good and happy times.
** I definitely agree on this one!!!! Also, I don't want my children to think of me as being judgemental and rude, I want them to see me as compassionate and helpful and kind.
Myranda
We are all just trying to talk truths and sometimes our life experiences won't allow us to see them as truths.
Take Care,
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
james e thomas
I have been reading the posts on the spanking and I can't remember if it
was Sandra or someone else that said that they rarely see Jewish folks
spanking etc.
I am very interested to hear more. Is anyone out there Jewish or knows
their parenting philosophy? Most of my friends have thought that Jewish
parents used the rod as much if not more than christians. This may sound
funny but I am just realizing that there are (true) christians out there
that don't believe in spanking.I have been told it is just the "radical"
ones.If you ask children (little ones) if they think Jesus would ever
spank...they usually say NO! Interesting isn't it? I am still learning in
this area. It doesn't sound like many of us came from non-spanking back
grounds.And I don't hear anyone saying much positive about their spanking
history...that it taught them alot.
The books that seem to float around our neck of the woods (TN) is the
Train Up A Child sort. There are camps and meetings for them. We were
given a copy and found it too harsh, but others have said what a blessing
it was for them. I am just now stopping to wonder if it was a blessing
for their children!
Any insights would be great.
sharon
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
was Sandra or someone else that said that they rarely see Jewish folks
spanking etc.
I am very interested to hear more. Is anyone out there Jewish or knows
their parenting philosophy? Most of my friends have thought that Jewish
parents used the rod as much if not more than christians. This may sound
funny but I am just realizing that there are (true) christians out there
that don't believe in spanking.I have been told it is just the "radical"
ones.If you ask children (little ones) if they think Jesus would ever
spank...they usually say NO! Interesting isn't it? I am still learning in
this area. It doesn't sound like many of us came from non-spanking back
grounds.And I don't hear anyone saying much positive about their spanking
history...that it taught them alot.
The books that seem to float around our neck of the woods (TN) is the
Train Up A Child sort. There are camps and meetings for them. We were
given a copy and found it too harsh, but others have said what a blessing
it was for them. I am just now stopping to wonder if it was a blessing
for their children!
Any insights would be great.
sharon
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
Pam Hartley
----------
you'll see that modern-day Jews are more against spanking than not, that
leading Rabbis advise against it, etc.
Jewish families are among the most respectful-to-children, and kind in
general, that I know.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Go to www.google.com and type in things like "Jewish view on spanking" and
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2531
>Date: Wed, Oct 23, 2002, 8:45 AM
>
> I am very interested to hear more. Is anyone out there Jewish or knows
> their parenting philosophy? Most of my friends have thought that Jewish
> parents used the rod as much if not more than christians.
you'll see that modern-day Jews are more against spanking than not, that
leading Rabbis advise against it, etc.
Jewish families are among the most respectful-to-children, and kind in
general, that I know.
Pam
Kelli Traaseth
So Myranda, I'm judgemental and rude now? I hope you don't mean me personally.
Hmm. and I'm living in la-la land?? Well, I know you don't know me and I don't know you but I wasn't talking about me. The part of my family(which would mean cousins and relatives) that does live in la-la land (which alot of society does) would like to think that everything is OK but its funny how we are now seeing that the la-la approach tends to bring on the drinking, drug addictions, and all sorts of abuse and neglectful parenting. These people have alot going for them, (on the surface)money, looks, all sorts of things, but unfortunately its what fills those issues. Instead of abusing their children they can go out and shop and neglect their children.
My own family, dh and my children, are trying to live honest, healthy lives, physically and emotionally..that's all.
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: Kelli Traaseth
Kelly is not being pessimistic, she is being realistic.
** I don't believe that it's realistic to assume that most people will make harmful choices, and will not ever look for better choices and work on changing. Maybe I just don't know the same type people you guys do, but I've moved around all my life and have met a LOT of people.
She is basing what she is saying on documented histories and facts.( and so is Nancy and so is Sandra and so on and so on) These are not just generalizations or conclusions they have drawn!
** I'm confused, which parts of what is being said? I've found quite a bit of documented history and facts that proves that when people work together as a family or small community, good changes do gradually come about, some quicker than others. Yes, I understand that people who were spanked are more likely to spank, and that's been proven and all, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
These are things that doctors/educated physicians and counselors have all learned.
Its fine to be an accepting person, that's wonderful and honky dorey, but it doesn't fix anything.
** Yes, it can. I've "fixed" several things, if you want to call it that, even with my accepting philosophy. My aunt no longer spanks or yells and now stays home with her daughter instead of dropping her off at daycare while she stayed home alone. Two people from a parents list I'm on now homeschool their children, one is unschooling, the other is considering it. One friend no longer allows her mom to keep her son because the mom refused to treat the son right. I could go on and on with the changes that I've helped bring about with a non-invasive, supporting, accepting attitude. It works. People are much more willing to listen and really hear you when you show them respect no matter whether you agree or disagree with their ideas and practices.
Its fine if we all want to live in la-la land. But if there is actual stuff going on it won't stop with us saying "oh, that's just them, they don't know any difference" My parents are just learning to be more compassionate people, their generation spanked, but you know what. If I would have just closed my eyes and said that's the way they are, well,,,,I would never be able to have a close, loving relationship with them.
** That's wonderful that you have that now. But that's your family, you have a right, maybe even a responsibility?, to teach, learn, and move forward with them. That's totally different from waltzing in a stranger's life, making judgemental comments, and waltzing right back out again.
They never knew how my siblings felt just seeing their baby siblings getting spanked. They felt so horrible, these things are just now coming out after 30 to 40 years. Spanking is emotionally depilitating, to both the person getting spanked and to the siblings around that know that it is happening. ( They don't even have to see it, even the implication of someone being spanked.)
We all will have to live with how we treat our children. And I know I want mine to remember good and happy times.
** I definitely agree on this one!!!! Also, I don't want my children to think of me as being judgemental and rude, I want them to see me as compassionate and helpful and kind.
Myranda
We are all just trying to talk truths and sometimes our life experiences won't allow us to see them as truths.
Take Care,
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hmm. and I'm living in la-la land?? Well, I know you don't know me and I don't know you but I wasn't talking about me. The part of my family(which would mean cousins and relatives) that does live in la-la land (which alot of society does) would like to think that everything is OK but its funny how we are now seeing that the la-la approach tends to bring on the drinking, drug addictions, and all sorts of abuse and neglectful parenting. These people have alot going for them, (on the surface)money, looks, all sorts of things, but unfortunately its what fills those issues. Instead of abusing their children they can go out and shop and neglect their children.
My own family, dh and my children, are trying to live honest, healthy lives, physically and emotionally..that's all.
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:
From: Kelli Traaseth
Kelly is not being pessimistic, she is being realistic.
** I don't believe that it's realistic to assume that most people will make harmful choices, and will not ever look for better choices and work on changing. Maybe I just don't know the same type people you guys do, but I've moved around all my life and have met a LOT of people.
She is basing what she is saying on documented histories and facts.( and so is Nancy and so is Sandra and so on and so on) These are not just generalizations or conclusions they have drawn!
** I'm confused, which parts of what is being said? I've found quite a bit of documented history and facts that proves that when people work together as a family or small community, good changes do gradually come about, some quicker than others. Yes, I understand that people who were spanked are more likely to spank, and that's been proven and all, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
These are things that doctors/educated physicians and counselors have all learned.
Its fine to be an accepting person, that's wonderful and honky dorey, but it doesn't fix anything.
** Yes, it can. I've "fixed" several things, if you want to call it that, even with my accepting philosophy. My aunt no longer spanks or yells and now stays home with her daughter instead of dropping her off at daycare while she stayed home alone. Two people from a parents list I'm on now homeschool their children, one is unschooling, the other is considering it. One friend no longer allows her mom to keep her son because the mom refused to treat the son right. I could go on and on with the changes that I've helped bring about with a non-invasive, supporting, accepting attitude. It works. People are much more willing to listen and really hear you when you show them respect no matter whether you agree or disagree with their ideas and practices.
Its fine if we all want to live in la-la land. But if there is actual stuff going on it won't stop with us saying "oh, that's just them, they don't know any difference" My parents are just learning to be more compassionate people, their generation spanked, but you know what. If I would have just closed my eyes and said that's the way they are, well,,,,I would never be able to have a close, loving relationship with them.
** That's wonderful that you have that now. But that's your family, you have a right, maybe even a responsibility?, to teach, learn, and move forward with them. That's totally different from waltzing in a stranger's life, making judgemental comments, and waltzing right back out again.
They never knew how my siblings felt just seeing their baby siblings getting spanked. They felt so horrible, these things are just now coming out after 30 to 40 years. Spanking is emotionally depilitating, to both the person getting spanked and to the siblings around that know that it is happening. ( They don't even have to see it, even the implication of someone being spanked.)
We all will have to live with how we treat our children. And I know I want mine to remember good and happy times.
** I definitely agree on this one!!!! Also, I don't want my children to think of me as being judgemental and rude, I want them to see me as compassionate and helpful and kind.
Myranda
We are all just trying to talk truths and sometimes our life experiences won't allow us to see them as truths.
Take Care,
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Kelli Traaseth
So Myranda, I'm judgemental and rude now? I hope you don't mean me personally.
** Not at all, I was talking about how I don't want my children to see me as judgemental and rude, as they would if I went around telling strangers how to behave and live.
Hmm. and I'm living in la-la land??
** No, you said la-la land, not me. Sounds like a good place for a vacation, to me.
Well, I know you don't know me and I don't know you but I wasn't talking about me. The part of my family(which would mean cousins and relatives) that does live in la-la land (which alot of society does) would like to think that everything is OK but its funny how we are now seeing that the la-la approach tends to bring on the drinking, drug addictions, and all sorts of abuse and neglectful parenting. These people have alot going for them, (on the surface)money, looks, all sorts of things, but unfortunately its what fills those issues. Instead of abusing their children they can go out and shop and neglect their children.
** So sad. Maybe their children will follow your example some day. Something to hope for, anyway. Not out of the realm of possibility, either, if they are around you enough to see that there is a much better way to do things.
My own family, dh and my children, are trying to live honest, healthy lives, physically and emotionally..that's all.
Kelli
** Me too!
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So Myranda, I'm judgemental and rude now? I hope you don't mean me personally.
** Not at all, I was talking about how I don't want my children to see me as judgemental and rude, as they would if I went around telling strangers how to behave and live.
Hmm. and I'm living in la-la land??
** No, you said la-la land, not me. Sounds like a good place for a vacation, to me.
Well, I know you don't know me and I don't know you but I wasn't talking about me. The part of my family(which would mean cousins and relatives) that does live in la-la land (which alot of society does) would like to think that everything is OK but its funny how we are now seeing that the la-la approach tends to bring on the drinking, drug addictions, and all sorts of abuse and neglectful parenting. These people have alot going for them, (on the surface)money, looks, all sorts of things, but unfortunately its what fills those issues. Instead of abusing their children they can go out and shop and neglect their children.
** So sad. Maybe their children will follow your example some day. Something to hope for, anyway. Not out of the realm of possibility, either, if they are around you enough to see that there is a much better way to do things.
My own family, dh and my children, are trying to live honest, healthy lives, physically and emotionally..that's all.
Kelli
** Me too!
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/02 4:06:02 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
This is an interesting point. I suppose that if a poster (not you)
is abusive to another one by using capital letters and scolding
language (IMHO signalling a lack of respect), that poster can still
expect us to believe that when she turns from her keyboard she will
be sweet, loving, and kind to her kids. Even if they argue with her
or oppose her like Myranda is accused of doing, in that situation she
will also not YELL or scold. She only does it online. Does that
also call for concentration and effort? Or is this scolding >>
I can tell you exactly what Kelly does.
I lived with her for a weekend, and seen her under a LOT of stress, so I
think I gathered a fairly good idea of how she operates.
Yes, she yells at people that get on a list, unaware of it's feel and start
advocating things that the majority have worked hard and long to rid their
lives of.
But with her children?
She is kind, gentle, TRULY respectful and all this on a weekend where she had
to have been stressed to the max.
Her children are interesting individuals that treated me and my children just
like they would treat any other person, as a friend.
Duncan asked me to get him cereal in the morning, without hesitation, because
adults have always treated him with respect and he does not assume they are
the enemy.
When he asked Kelly for something, she responded with love, kindness and
empathy.
I guarantee the yelling is saved for the stubborn people on this list that
are too engrained in a line of thought to say "aha! I never thought of it
that way, where can I learn more?" and instead try to defend indefensible
thoughts.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
This is an interesting point. I suppose that if a poster (not you)
is abusive to another one by using capital letters and scolding
language (IMHO signalling a lack of respect), that poster can still
expect us to believe that when she turns from her keyboard she will
be sweet, loving, and kind to her kids. Even if they argue with her
or oppose her like Myranda is accused of doing, in that situation she
will also not YELL or scold. She only does it online. Does that
also call for concentration and effort? Or is this scolding >>
I can tell you exactly what Kelly does.
I lived with her for a weekend, and seen her under a LOT of stress, so I
think I gathered a fairly good idea of how she operates.
Yes, she yells at people that get on a list, unaware of it's feel and start
advocating things that the majority have worked hard and long to rid their
lives of.
But with her children?
She is kind, gentle, TRULY respectful and all this on a weekend where she had
to have been stressed to the max.
Her children are interesting individuals that treated me and my children just
like they would treat any other person, as a friend.
Duncan asked me to get him cereal in the morning, without hesitation, because
adults have always treated him with respect and he does not assume they are
the enemy.
When he asked Kelly for something, she responded with love, kindness and
empathy.
I guarantee the yelling is saved for the stubborn people on this list that
are too engrained in a line of thought to say "aha! I never thought of it
that way, where can I learn more?" and instead try to defend indefensible
thoughts.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/02 10:46:03 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
** I don't believe that it's realistic to assume that most people will
make harmful choices, and will not ever look for better choices and work on
changing. Maybe I just don't know the same type people you guys do, but I've
moved around all my life and have met a LOT of people. >>
A lot of people do try to do better, but many find it hard to overcome the
way they were parented (interestingly enough).
And I don't know how, if you truly advocate respect for children, you can't
see that the HUGE majority of adults make harmful choices.
I have lived in a lot of different areas, I travel every year, and I see
harmful choices abounding.
My Dad is reading a book called "Addicted to unhappiness" that I am thinking
would be a good recommendation here.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
** I don't believe that it's realistic to assume that most people will
make harmful choices, and will not ever look for better choices and work on
changing. Maybe I just don't know the same type people you guys do, but I've
moved around all my life and have met a LOT of people. >>
A lot of people do try to do better, but many find it hard to overcome the
way they were parented (interestingly enough).
And I don't know how, if you truly advocate respect for children, you can't
see that the HUGE majority of adults make harmful choices.
I have lived in a lot of different areas, I travel every year, and I see
harmful choices abounding.
My Dad is reading a book called "Addicted to unhappiness" that I am thinking
would be a good recommendation here.
Ren
Myranda
I agree, Kelly's great, and I don't mind being yelled at one bit! :-)
But, Ren, I do not understand why you, and others, would assume that these views had not previously been thought about, had not been previously looked into, learned about, etc. I believe this is the second or third time this has been brought up. Surely you don't think that just because someone does not agree with you or what you see as the "right" answer that they have not taken the time to learn about and look into their and other views?
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
I guarantee the yelling is saved for the stubborn people on this list that
are too engrained in a line of thought to say "aha! I never thought of it
that way, where can I learn more?" and instead try to defend indefensible
thoughts.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But, Ren, I do not understand why you, and others, would assume that these views had not previously been thought about, had not been previously looked into, learned about, etc. I believe this is the second or third time this has been brought up. Surely you don't think that just because someone does not agree with you or what you see as the "right" answer that they have not taken the time to learn about and look into their and other views?
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
I guarantee the yelling is saved for the stubborn people on this list that
are too engrained in a line of thought to say "aha! I never thought of it
that way, where can I learn more?" and instead try to defend indefensible
thoughts.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
A lot of people do try to do better, but many find it hard to overcome the
way they were parented (interestingly enough).
And I don't know how, if you truly advocate respect for children, you can't
see that the HUGE majority of adults make harmful choices.
** Because the huge majority I know, don't make harmful choices. They respect their kids, they do whatever they can do to help them show love to them, they sacrifice so one parent can always be available for them, they research things like vaccinations and circumcism trying to get enough info to make the right choice, they start their own businesses so both parents can be with the children, they purchase the safest vehicle on the market when they have the first baby, and so on and so on. Even if they make one harmful choice in the midst of all of the "good" choices, does that make them a bad parent? I don't think so. No one's expected to be perfect. Does it scar the child for life? I don't think so, if they have a good foundation and balance with the parents.
I have lived in a lot of different areas, I travel every year, and I see
harmful choices abounding.
** OK, just had a thought. For all of you who speak up and "scold" parents who are not treating their children right, do you also speak up and praise the ones who are? If positive reinforcement is supposed to be the best way to teach, wouldn't that be a good thing to do? Others nearby are sure to hear, and may take those words much more to heart than they would if they heard someone being scolded.
Myranda
My Dad is reading a book called "Addicted to unhappiness" that I am thinking
would be a good recommendation here.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A lot of people do try to do better, but many find it hard to overcome the
way they were parented (interestingly enough).
And I don't know how, if you truly advocate respect for children, you can't
see that the HUGE majority of adults make harmful choices.
** Because the huge majority I know, don't make harmful choices. They respect their kids, they do whatever they can do to help them show love to them, they sacrifice so one parent can always be available for them, they research things like vaccinations and circumcism trying to get enough info to make the right choice, they start their own businesses so both parents can be with the children, they purchase the safest vehicle on the market when they have the first baby, and so on and so on. Even if they make one harmful choice in the midst of all of the "good" choices, does that make them a bad parent? I don't think so. No one's expected to be perfect. Does it scar the child for life? I don't think so, if they have a good foundation and balance with the parents.
I have lived in a lot of different areas, I travel every year, and I see
harmful choices abounding.
** OK, just had a thought. For all of you who speak up and "scold" parents who are not treating their children right, do you also speak up and praise the ones who are? If positive reinforcement is supposed to be the best way to teach, wouldn't that be a good thing to do? Others nearby are sure to hear, and may take those words much more to heart than they would if they heard someone being scolded.
Myranda
My Dad is reading a book called "Addicted to unhappiness" that I am thinking
would be a good recommendation here.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/02 2:52:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
But, Ren, I do not understand why you, and others, would assume that these
views had not previously been thought about, had not been previously looked
into, learned about, etc. I believe this is the second or third time this has
been brought up. Surely you don't think that just because someone does not
agree with you or what you see as the "right" answer that they have not taken
the time to learn about and look into their and other views?
Myranda >>
But Myranda, your stories change like the wind.
All this two-stepping and back pedaling are what's confusing. You are not
solid in your ideas, nor sure of yourself. That is obvious.
There are underlying issues of food control and spanking that you are not
willing to be perfectly honest about, nor discuss with the use of logic.
This isn't about a disagreement in philosophies, it's about the use of clear,
concise thought (which you are lacking right now) and the use of logic.
Methinks you need to study logic and the use of it in debate before
continuting to put your foot in your mouth.
Usually, when in reference to a once a week visit, is not once every two
months.
You say things that make no sense, and when called out on it, respond with
the Clinton side step.
Just be more forthright, and I think you'll find this list more helpful.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
But, Ren, I do not understand why you, and others, would assume that these
views had not previously been thought about, had not been previously looked
into, learned about, etc. I believe this is the second or third time this has
been brought up. Surely you don't think that just because someone does not
agree with you or what you see as the "right" answer that they have not taken
the time to learn about and look into their and other views?
Myranda >>
But Myranda, your stories change like the wind.
All this two-stepping and back pedaling are what's confusing. You are not
solid in your ideas, nor sure of yourself. That is obvious.
There are underlying issues of food control and spanking that you are not
willing to be perfectly honest about, nor discuss with the use of logic.
This isn't about a disagreement in philosophies, it's about the use of clear,
concise thought (which you are lacking right now) and the use of logic.
Methinks you need to study logic and the use of it in debate before
continuting to put your foot in your mouth.
Usually, when in reference to a once a week visit, is not once every two
months.
You say things that make no sense, and when called out on it, respond with
the Clinton side step.
Just be more forthright, and I think you'll find this list more helpful.
Ren
Betsy
** ** Because the huge majority I know, don't make harmful choices. They respect
their kids, they do whatever they can do to help them show love to them, they
sacrifice so one parent can always be available for them, they research
things like
vaccinations and circumcism trying to get enough info to make the right
choice, they
start their own businesses so both parents can be with the children,
they purchase
the safest vehicle on the market when they have the first baby, and so
on and so on.**
I think you are looking at a biased sample, not the national average.
While it is true that most of the moms that I hang out with at park days
are stay-at-home moms, I thought recent statistics showed that MORE than
half of moms with kids ages three and up are employed outside of the
home, either part-time or full-time.
Generalizing about "Jo Average Parent" is so vague that it may not be
fruitful for our discussions at all.
Betsy
their kids, they do whatever they can do to help them show love to them, they
sacrifice so one parent can always be available for them, they research
things like
vaccinations and circumcism trying to get enough info to make the right
choice, they
start their own businesses so both parents can be with the children,
they purchase
the safest vehicle on the market when they have the first baby, and so
on and so on.**
I think you are looking at a biased sample, not the national average.
While it is true that most of the moms that I hang out with at park days
are stay-at-home moms, I thought recent statistics showed that MORE than
half of moms with kids ages three and up are employed outside of the
home, either part-time or full-time.
Generalizing about "Jo Average Parent" is so vague that it may not be
fruitful for our discussions at all.
Betsy
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
But Myranda, your stories change like the wind.
** My answers only change when different-situation questions change. Like I said, why can't bananas stay on the counter AND be offfered?
All this two-stepping and back pedaling are what's confusing. You are not
solid in your ideas, nor sure of yourself. That is obvious.
** I'm very sure of what I say, but if the questions aren't relevent or change the subject, then so do my answers. I dunno, makes sense to me, maybe my brains are scrambled.
There are underlying issues of food control and spanking that you are not
willing to be perfectly honest about, nor discuss with the use of logic.
** Underlying issues? Like what? I haven't been less than honest. Want references? Nothing I've stated here is a secret.
This isn't about a disagreement in philosophies, it's about the use of clear,
concise thought (which you are lacking right now) and the use of logic.
Methinks you need to study logic and the use of it in debate before
continuting to put your foot in your mouth.
** I'm not good at debating, I know that. I don't like it, I don't enjoy it, and I suspect I never will. I'm much more comfortable stating an opinion, answering a few questions, and moving on. Things seem to get harped on a lot longer here. I also don't have the time to sit and type out answer after answer, especially since the questions usually don't have anything to do with the original subject. I do chase a 9 mth old around in the middle of all these posts, also.
Usually, when in reference to a once a week visit, is not once every two
months.
** Ok, substitute another word then. I'm not picky, whatever word works for you, doesn't bother me a bit. Usually is my choice because it's much more often than it occurs anywhere else, and it's much too often, IMO.
You say things that make no sense, and when called out on it, respond with
the Clinton side step.
Just be more forthright, and I think you'll find this list more helpful.
Ren
** Will try to stick to exact, proper wording from now on. :-)
Myranda
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But Myranda, your stories change like the wind.
** My answers only change when different-situation questions change. Like I said, why can't bananas stay on the counter AND be offfered?
All this two-stepping and back pedaling are what's confusing. You are not
solid in your ideas, nor sure of yourself. That is obvious.
** I'm very sure of what I say, but if the questions aren't relevent or change the subject, then so do my answers. I dunno, makes sense to me, maybe my brains are scrambled.
There are underlying issues of food control and spanking that you are not
willing to be perfectly honest about, nor discuss with the use of logic.
** Underlying issues? Like what? I haven't been less than honest. Want references? Nothing I've stated here is a secret.
This isn't about a disagreement in philosophies, it's about the use of clear,
concise thought (which you are lacking right now) and the use of logic.
Methinks you need to study logic and the use of it in debate before
continuting to put your foot in your mouth.
** I'm not good at debating, I know that. I don't like it, I don't enjoy it, and I suspect I never will. I'm much more comfortable stating an opinion, answering a few questions, and moving on. Things seem to get harped on a lot longer here. I also don't have the time to sit and type out answer after answer, especially since the questions usually don't have anything to do with the original subject. I do chase a 9 mth old around in the middle of all these posts, also.
Usually, when in reference to a once a week visit, is not once every two
months.
** Ok, substitute another word then. I'm not picky, whatever word works for you, doesn't bother me a bit. Usually is my choice because it's much more often than it occurs anywhere else, and it's much too often, IMO.
You say things that make no sense, and when called out on it, respond with
the Clinton side step.
Just be more forthright, and I think you'll find this list more helpful.
Ren
** Will try to stick to exact, proper wording from now on. :-)
Myranda
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Yes, it probably is biased. I've said that I'm taking this from the people I know. I realize that may not be a good standard, but I'm happy that the people I know are this way.
Myranda
From: Betsy
I think you are looking at a biased sample, not the national average.
While it is true that most of the moms that I hang out with at park days
are stay-at-home moms, I thought recent statistics showed that MORE than
half of moms with kids ages three and up are employed outside of the
home, either part-time or full-time.
Generalizing about "Jo Average Parent" is so vague that it may not be
fruitful for our discussions at all.
Betsy
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Betsy
I think you are looking at a biased sample, not the national average.
While it is true that most of the moms that I hang out with at park days
are stay-at-home moms, I thought recent statistics showed that MORE than
half of moms with kids ages three and up are employed outside of the
home, either part-time or full-time.
Generalizing about "Jo Average Parent" is so vague that it may not be
fruitful for our discussions at all.
Betsy
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
Myranda, do you think a parents right to choose spanking should take
precedence over a child's right to be safe?
Deb L
precedence over a child's right to be safe?
Deb L
Myranda
I think parents have the right to choose how to parent, AND children have the right to be safe, happy, healthy, and loved. Find a balance between the two that work for you, and you're set. I can't answer the question with a yes or no, because I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're equating spanking with being unsafe, and I don't feel that way. A spanking is not good, it can damage the relationship with the child, etc. but it does not put their lives in danger.
Myranda
Myranda, do you think a parents right to choose spanking should take
precedence over a child's right to be safe?
Deb L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Myranda, do you think a parents right to choose spanking should take
precedence over a child's right to be safe?
Deb L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***you're equating spanking with being unsafe, and I don't feel that
way. A spanking is not good, it can damage the relationship with the
child, etc. but it does not put their lives in danger. ***
Myranda, then, do you think a parent has a right to hurt a child as long
as they are not endangering their lives? The right to be hurtful is
greater than the right to not be hurt?
Deb L
way. A spanking is not good, it can damage the relationship with the
child, etc. but it does not put their lives in danger. ***
Myranda, then, do you think a parent has a right to hurt a child as long
as they are not endangering their lives? The right to be hurtful is
greater than the right to not be hurt?
Deb L
Myranda
A legal right, yes, as long as it's not abuse. But, no, I personally don't think it is right for anyone to hurt someone else, no matter whether they're an adult or child or a dog.
Myranda
Myranda, then, do you think a parent has a right to hurt a child as long
as they are not endangering their lives? The right to be hurtful is
greater than the right to not be hurt?
Deb L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Myranda, then, do you think a parent has a right to hurt a child as long
as they are not endangering their lives? The right to be hurtful is
greater than the right to not be hurt?
Deb L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
We all know spanking is legal.
I asked if *you* think a parent's right to hurt a child is greater than
the child's right to not be hurt.
Deb L
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:55:05 -0400 "Myranda" <myrandab@...>
writes:
I asked if *you* think a parent's right to hurt a child is greater than
the child's right to not be hurt.
Deb L
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:55:05 -0400 "Myranda" <myrandab@...>
writes:
> A legal right, yes, as long as it's not abuse. But, no, I personally
> don't think it is right for anyone to hurt someone else, no matter
> whether they're an adult or child or a dog.
> Myranda
>
> Myranda, then, do you think a parent has a right to hurt a child
> as long
> as they are not endangering their lives? The right to be
> hurtful is
> greater than the right to not be hurt?
>
> Deb L
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line!
> ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please
> email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or
> the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
> address an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Mary Bianco
>From: "Myranda" <myrandab@...><<I think parents have the right to choose how to parent, AND children have
the right to be safe, happy, healthy, and loved. Find a balance between the
two that work for you, and you're set. I can't answer the question with a
yes or no, because I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're equating
spanking with being unsafe, and I don't feel that way. A spanking is not
good, it can damage the relationship with the child, etc. but it does not
put their lives in danger.>>
Okay so again it seems to be a definition of words. Can't one be unsafe from
having harmful words said to them? It's a different kind of hurt but can't
it be just as detrimental, if not more so? I think most of us would agree on
that. People can say some damaging things that do hurt. Think about the lady
in the store with your son. You blame what she said on undoing things you
had done with your son. That caused your son not to be safe did it not?
Wasn't he trying to kick you and maybe in turn hurt himself? And do you see
it as hurting him psychologically? He trusts a stranger's word over yours.
Words can do harm and make one unsafe in mind. Well spanking does the same
thing. It hurts the child. Maybe not on the butt, but look at a childs face
when they are getting a spanking. It hurts. That's not safe. So if that
child has the right to be safe, then he needs not be spanked.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/02 8:26:05 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< "You don't have to put your
hands up just because she tells you to."" The lady left her alone the rest
of the night.
Mary B (think you know what the B stands for?? LOL!!!) >>
HA!!
I had that happen at the park once.
A Mom told my Sierra how to use the slide, I piped up that she didn't need to
listen (because it was NOT a safety issue and this woman was a complete
busybody)
Later she got all upset that our kids were climbing in (a very safe and
large) tree.
Even went to "tattle" on us.....the community center apparently wasn't
concerned because she left in a huff. Her comment to us as she pointed to our
happy unschoolers sitting in the tree was "THAT is an accident waiting to
happen".
Trevor said he should have run up to her while she was getting in her car and
say "Please Mam, don't get in your car, that is an accident just waiting to
happen!"
I gave him an A+ for wittiness. A subject we take seriously around here.....
:)
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< "You don't have to put your
hands up just because she tells you to."" The lady left her alone the rest
of the night.
Mary B (think you know what the B stands for?? LOL!!!) >>
HA!!
I had that happen at the park once.
A Mom told my Sierra how to use the slide, I piped up that she didn't need to
listen (because it was NOT a safety issue and this woman was a complete
busybody)
Later she got all upset that our kids were climbing in (a very safe and
large) tree.
Even went to "tattle" on us.....the community center apparently wasn't
concerned because she left in a huff. Her comment to us as she pointed to our
happy unschoolers sitting in the tree was "THAT is an accident waiting to
happen".
Trevor said he should have run up to her while she was getting in her car and
say "Please Mam, don't get in your car, that is an accident just waiting to
happen!"
I gave him an A+ for wittiness. A subject we take seriously around here.....
:)
Ren
Kelli Traaseth
Ren,
I think I have to get this book, I'm feeling like alot of people think that unhappiness is just a way of life, and there is no other way. I tell them about the way we are now living, child-led learning/unschooling life and they really think that my kids are going to miss the boat because the 'real' world isn't like that!! I keep saying, but it can be! I'm really trying to introduce all of this to them in a way that they won't think I'm attacking them. They really think there is no way to live and actually be truly happy.
What's really sad to me is that if people keep thinking that way there won't be much happiness in their lives!
Kelli
starsuncloud@... wrote:In a message dated 10/23/02 10:46:03 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
** I don't believe that it's realistic to assume that most people will
make harmful choices, and will not ever look for better choices and work on
changing. Maybe I just don't know the same type people you guys do, but I've
moved around all my life and have met a LOT of people. >>
A lot of people do try to do better, but many find it hard to overcome the
way they were parented (interestingly enough).
And I don't know how, if you truly advocate respect for children, you can't
see that the HUGE majority of adults make harmful choices.
I have lived in a lot of different areas, I travel every year, and I see
harmful choices abounding.
My Dad is reading a book called "Addicted to unhappiness" that I am thinking
would be a good recommendation here.
Ren
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think I have to get this book, I'm feeling like alot of people think that unhappiness is just a way of life, and there is no other way. I tell them about the way we are now living, child-led learning/unschooling life and they really think that my kids are going to miss the boat because the 'real' world isn't like that!! I keep saying, but it can be! I'm really trying to introduce all of this to them in a way that they won't think I'm attacking them. They really think there is no way to live and actually be truly happy.
What's really sad to me is that if people keep thinking that way there won't be much happiness in their lives!
Kelli
starsuncloud@... wrote:In a message dated 10/23/02 10:46:03 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
** I don't believe that it's realistic to assume that most people will
make harmful choices, and will not ever look for better choices and work on
changing. Maybe I just don't know the same type people you guys do, but I've
moved around all my life and have met a LOT of people. >>
A lot of people do try to do better, but many find it hard to overcome the
way they were parented (interestingly enough).
And I don't know how, if you truly advocate respect for children, you can't
see that the HUGE majority of adults make harmful choices.
I have lived in a lot of different areas, I travel every year, and I see
harmful choices abounding.
My Dad is reading a book called "Addicted to unhappiness" that I am thinking
would be a good recommendation here.
Ren
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
A right is a right, no one is greater than another.
Myranda
From: Deborah Lewis
We all know spanking is legal.
I asked if *you* think a parent's right to hurt a child is greater than
the child's right to not be hurt.
Deb L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Deborah Lewis
We all know spanking is legal.
I asked if *you* think a parent's right to hurt a child is greater than
the child's right to not be hurt.
Deb L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/02 6:40:14 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< A right is a right, no one is greater than another.
Myranda >>
Ok, just so you aren't feeling misquoted, I am going to post what the above
was in response to:
" I asked if *you* think a parent's right to hurt a child is greater than
the child's right to not be hurt."
So you think a parent's right to hurt a child is EQUAL to the child's right
to not be hurt?
Ok, here is the PERFECT example of what we are all having problems with
Myranda.
You're trying to convince us that we, who are extremely passionate about a
childs right to not be hurt, (and many of us that have admittedly spanked in
the past )
are supposed to believe that you feel this way but never, ever have spanked
yourself?
See, most all of the people I know that do not spank, feel very strongly that
it's wrong.
Otherwise they'd probably do it.
You are saying that you have never spanked your children, NEVER, yet you
don't have strong feelings about it being wrong?
How? I'd really like to know.
Are you just extremely patient? Did your parents never, ever spank you?
How is it that a person comes to the point of never spanking, but thinks
parent's have a right to do it?
That is quite bizarre in my book.
Doesn't add up.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< A right is a right, no one is greater than another.
Myranda >>
Ok, just so you aren't feeling misquoted, I am going to post what the above
was in response to:
" I asked if *you* think a parent's right to hurt a child is greater than
the child's right to not be hurt."
So you think a parent's right to hurt a child is EQUAL to the child's right
to not be hurt?
Ok, here is the PERFECT example of what we are all having problems with
Myranda.
You're trying to convince us that we, who are extremely passionate about a
childs right to not be hurt, (and many of us that have admittedly spanked in
the past )
are supposed to believe that you feel this way but never, ever have spanked
yourself?
See, most all of the people I know that do not spank, feel very strongly that
it's wrong.
Otherwise they'd probably do it.
You are saying that you have never spanked your children, NEVER, yet you
don't have strong feelings about it being wrong?
How? I'd really like to know.
Are you just extremely patient? Did your parents never, ever spank you?
How is it that a person comes to the point of never spanking, but thinks
parent's have a right to do it?
That is quite bizarre in my book.
Doesn't add up.
Ren
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
So you think a parent's right to hurt a child is EQUAL to the child's right
to not be hurt?
Ok, here is the PERFECT example of what we are all having problems with
Myranda.
You're trying to convince us that we, who are extremely passionate about a
childs right to not be hurt, (and many of us that have admittedly spanked in
the past )
are supposed to believe that you feel this way but never, ever have spanked
yourself?
** No, I have spanked, the swat-on-the-diaper type of spanking. I have not done it in years.
See, most all of the people I know that do not spank, feel very strongly that
it's wrong.
Otherwise they'd probably do it.
** I feel it is wrong, too, but I don't think it's right to impose my views onto others. Other people have the right to believe how they want to, the same as I do.
You are saying that you have never spanked your children, NEVER, yet you
don't have strong feelings about it being wrong?
** No, I did not say I never spanked them. I said I do not spank. (Yup, another "I did not say", because I didn't!) I feel strongly that a lot of things are wrong - abortion, vaccination, circumcism, public school, divorce, smoking, stealing, and so on, but I still think people have the right to make those choices for themselves. Being against something and for others' rights are not mutually exclusive.
How? I'd really like to know.
Are you just extremely patient?
** I've been accused of that before! <g> Patience is a real plus when training horses.
Did your parents never, ever spank you?
** My mom, only a few times. My dad, never.
How is it that a person comes to the point of never spanking, but thinks
parent's have a right to do it?
That is quite bizarre in my book.
Doesn't add up.
Ren
** I have a right to choose, and so do other parents. What doesn't add up about that?
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So you think a parent's right to hurt a child is EQUAL to the child's right
to not be hurt?
Ok, here is the PERFECT example of what we are all having problems with
Myranda.
You're trying to convince us that we, who are extremely passionate about a
childs right to not be hurt, (and many of us that have admittedly spanked in
the past )
are supposed to believe that you feel this way but never, ever have spanked
yourself?
** No, I have spanked, the swat-on-the-diaper type of spanking. I have not done it in years.
See, most all of the people I know that do not spank, feel very strongly that
it's wrong.
Otherwise they'd probably do it.
** I feel it is wrong, too, but I don't think it's right to impose my views onto others. Other people have the right to believe how they want to, the same as I do.
You are saying that you have never spanked your children, NEVER, yet you
don't have strong feelings about it being wrong?
** No, I did not say I never spanked them. I said I do not spank. (Yup, another "I did not say", because I didn't!) I feel strongly that a lot of things are wrong - abortion, vaccination, circumcism, public school, divorce, smoking, stealing, and so on, but I still think people have the right to make those choices for themselves. Being against something and for others' rights are not mutually exclusive.
How? I'd really like to know.
Are you just extremely patient?
** I've been accused of that before! <g> Patience is a real plus when training horses.
Did your parents never, ever spank you?
** My mom, only a few times. My dad, never.
How is it that a person comes to the point of never spanking, but thinks
parent's have a right to do it?
That is quite bizarre in my book.
Doesn't add up.
Ren
** I have a right to choose, and so do other parents. What doesn't add up about that?
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms
> I think I have to get this book, I'm feeling like a lot ofWhat exactly are you living in now? A fake world? I have been realizing
> people think that unhappiness is just a way of life, and
> there is no other way. I tell them about the way we are
> now living, child-led learning/unschooling life and they
> really think that my kids are going to miss the boat because
> the 'real' world isn't like that!! I keep saying, but it
that we spend so much time worrying about what our kids will be like
in the future, trying to prepare them that we forget to enjoy the here
and now. Kids live in the here and now. I try to be more like them.
I want my home to be a sanctuary, a safe place, not a proving ground
for the "real" world. They will get plenty of experiences they will
need to learn how to deal with outside the family, why do I need
to make life difficult at home for them.
Maybe if they learn at home that life is good and wonderful and fun,
they will expect that when they are older and make the choices
that will help them achieve that rather then just except that they
are "supposed" to be unhappy.
Stephanie E.
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/02 10:09:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
myrandab@... writes:
about that?
Myranda
The question isn't whether or not parents have the right to choose. We have
established that one. The question is, do YOU think, the parents already
established right (to hurt, to spank) supersedes (goes above) the child's
right to not be hurt, to feel safe and loved?
I'm not one to advocate going with the flow, nor am I saying that is what
should be done in this situation. So please don't read that into what I am
about to say.
On this list there are a few truths. A few things almost everyone here agrees
with, fights for and advocates. Examples of these could be the most obvious,
unschooling or like this current, never ending topic, spanking. Then there
are a few truths that many, but not all agree with, fight for and advocate.
Examples of these could be not circumcising and no vaccinations. Lastly there
are truths that some but not all believe in, these include things like being
vegetarians or vegans.
So, maybe you don't agree with the rest of us about spanking. Fine. But do
you see how, since the rest of us feel one certain way about spanking, and
you are out there by your lonesome, crying "but I have that right, and so do
other parents!" isn't going to fly with the rest of us? Do you see how
repetitive, circular, argumentative posts are unproductive? Time and time
again people have posted EXACT quotes from you, asking you to clarify, asking
if this_____ (fill in the blank) is what you meant, and you have said, things
like "Yes, that's it." and "Yep that about covers it" only to fairly scream
at us in the next post that you have been misquoted, that you NEVER said
THAT! Do you see, at all, that when countless people are saying the exact
same things to you, that maybe you need to stop, take a look, reread, take a
deep breath, and really see that what we are saying to you, about the things
you have said are true?
~Nancy who had decided to take some gentle advice yesterday to let this one
go and quit responding, but just couldn't resist.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
myrandab@... writes:
> From: starsuncloud@...** I have a right to choose, and so do other parents. What doesn't add up
> So you think a parent's right to hurt a child is EQUAL to the child's
> right
> to not be hurt?
>
about that?
Myranda
The question isn't whether or not parents have the right to choose. We have
established that one. The question is, do YOU think, the parents already
established right (to hurt, to spank) supersedes (goes above) the child's
right to not be hurt, to feel safe and loved?
I'm not one to advocate going with the flow, nor am I saying that is what
should be done in this situation. So please don't read that into what I am
about to say.
On this list there are a few truths. A few things almost everyone here agrees
with, fights for and advocates. Examples of these could be the most obvious,
unschooling or like this current, never ending topic, spanking. Then there
are a few truths that many, but not all agree with, fight for and advocate.
Examples of these could be not circumcising and no vaccinations. Lastly there
are truths that some but not all believe in, these include things like being
vegetarians or vegans.
So, maybe you don't agree with the rest of us about spanking. Fine. But do
you see how, since the rest of us feel one certain way about spanking, and
you are out there by your lonesome, crying "but I have that right, and so do
other parents!" isn't going to fly with the rest of us? Do you see how
repetitive, circular, argumentative posts are unproductive? Time and time
again people have posted EXACT quotes from you, asking you to clarify, asking
if this_____ (fill in the blank) is what you meant, and you have said, things
like "Yes, that's it." and "Yep that about covers it" only to fairly scream
at us in the next post that you have been misquoted, that you NEVER said
THAT! Do you see, at all, that when countless people are saying the exact
same things to you, that maybe you need to stop, take a look, reread, take a
deep breath, and really see that what we are saying to you, about the things
you have said are true?
~Nancy who had decided to take some gentle advice yesterday to let this one
go and quit responding, but just couldn't resist.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]