Aware of Child Abuse (was Re: Are we in this together?)
Peggy
Mike,
How can you live in this world for 51 years and NOT see child abuse? I mean
this gently. I am amazed. Were you like a geeky nerd who didn't get out much?
I remember the first time I heard of it, was when a friend at school told me
they were taken away from their dad because he hit them in the face with his
belt buckle. I was eight.
How can you live in this world for 51 years and NOT see child abuse? I mean
this gently. I am amazed. Were you like a geeky nerd who didn't get out much?
I remember the first time I heard of it, was when a friend at school told me
they were taken away from their dad because he hit them in the face with his
belt buckle. I was eight.
> I'm very sorry to hear about the death of the boy. Similar recentPeggy
> posts have shown me that just because I have never known or seen
> child abuse (at all, let alone to the point of death) doesn't mean it
> does not widely exist. Clearly some protective action needs to be
> taken. I still feel that a zealous CPS (government) organization can
> and does overstep its bounds, but I do not have a better solution to
> offer for cases like this one.
Mike Ebbers
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Peggy <peggy@l...> wrote:
take drugs, and I've seen very few drunkards. I'll tell you some
possibilities for why I think that is so, and you can pick the ones
you think are most likely:
1. I grew up in small towns in the '50s and '60s in NY state (yep, NY
has some small towns out there). This stuff was not as common as in
cities, I suspect.
2. I probably wouldn't recognize pot or drugs (but I would recognize
bruised kids and stories of beatings if I had heard them).
3. I have always lived in good neighborhoods. Even though my father
as a minister did not make much money, the parsonages supplied by the
churches were in good neighborhoods.
4. I have always lived in houses or upscale apartments (was single
until age 39 so could afford them <s>).
5. The places I have lived in did not have visible "child abuse"
around me. This one makes me wonder if I picked the few places it
didn't happen, or if it is less widespread than some people think.
These places include Philmont/Walden/Somers NY state, Akron OH,
Irving/Dallas TX, Minneapolis, and now Poughkeepsie NY.
6. I WAS a rather geeky, nerdy child. We didn't really "get out"
much, but I was allowed to ride my bike all over the countryside by
myself (can't let the kids do that today, but would love to) and we
had a fair number of people visit us. I attended public schools all
the way through (but despise the "socialization" that I got from
them). For many years now I have presented week-long technical
computer courses all over the world to groups of up to 50, so I got
OJS (on the job socialization). <g>
7.I grew up getting a few spankings in my life (less than 6) and took
them for granted, just as today if I see them administered in a
loving fashion (see another post of mine for narrow definition of
spanking vs. brutalization) I take it for granted.
I have seen a few spankings, by the way, but I am not counting them
as viewing child abuse. I have not seen beltings, bruisings,
beatings, or even horrific verbal abuse. Believe it or not. If I
ever see bruising going on, I will make a judgment on whether to step
in or not (I am no longer geeky, perhaps a little nerdy still, but
quite athletic for 51).
Mike
> How can you live in this world for 51 years and NOT see childAs a child, kind of like that. I've never seen anyone smoke pot or
>abuse? I mean this gently. I am amazed. Were you like a geeky nerd
>who didn't get out much?
take drugs, and I've seen very few drunkards. I'll tell you some
possibilities for why I think that is so, and you can pick the ones
you think are most likely:
1. I grew up in small towns in the '50s and '60s in NY state (yep, NY
has some small towns out there). This stuff was not as common as in
cities, I suspect.
2. I probably wouldn't recognize pot or drugs (but I would recognize
bruised kids and stories of beatings if I had heard them).
3. I have always lived in good neighborhoods. Even though my father
as a minister did not make much money, the parsonages supplied by the
churches were in good neighborhoods.
4. I have always lived in houses or upscale apartments (was single
until age 39 so could afford them <s>).
5. The places I have lived in did not have visible "child abuse"
around me. This one makes me wonder if I picked the few places it
didn't happen, or if it is less widespread than some people think.
These places include Philmont/Walden/Somers NY state, Akron OH,
Irving/Dallas TX, Minneapolis, and now Poughkeepsie NY.
6. I WAS a rather geeky, nerdy child. We didn't really "get out"
much, but I was allowed to ride my bike all over the countryside by
myself (can't let the kids do that today, but would love to) and we
had a fair number of people visit us. I attended public schools all
the way through (but despise the "socialization" that I got from
them). For many years now I have presented week-long technical
computer courses all over the world to groups of up to 50, so I got
OJS (on the job socialization). <g>
7.I grew up getting a few spankings in my life (less than 6) and took
them for granted, just as today if I see them administered in a
loving fashion (see another post of mine for narrow definition of
spanking vs. brutalization) I take it for granted.
I have seen a few spankings, by the way, but I am not counting them
as viewing child abuse. I have not seen beltings, bruisings,
beatings, or even horrific verbal abuse. Believe it or not. If I
ever see bruising going on, I will make a judgment on whether to step
in or not (I am no longer geeky, perhaps a little nerdy still, but
quite athletic for 51).
Mike
Vicki A. Dennis
Mike,
You don't mention if these places were after the 50's and 60's that you "grew up in small towns in New York" but I can speak to you of just not being aware of your surroundings in either Irving or Dallas.....at least through the 90's. I mean, goodness........they still beat the children in school with wooden paddles that cause bruises and sometimes nerve damage!. And those are given the diminutive term "licks"........considered far less of a punishment than the "whippings" administered at home by probably a much larger portion of parents that you would ever imagine.
"Spankings" are those little swats given to toddlers. No one over 5 years old is "spanked" . Spanking is for babies and open hands are used. (These are NOT my beliefs, just reporting on the culture). Whippings use weapons......belt, switch, rope, cord, paddle, board, maybe even an old fashioned razor strap.
Might be LOTS of stuff that is considered so routine in a child's life that you might never notice even if you visited in the home or heard parents nonchalantly refer to daddy having two belts (black and brown) so that no matter what he might be wearing while away, kids know that there is always one coiled in the top drawer.
Or the ping pong paddle on top of the fridge. Or the "special" paddles made as woodworking projects to give to parents or teachers as a gift.
Small towns in New York certainly not immune. It was a small NY town where I witnessed NY natives use cattle prods and horsewhips......and CPS investigators report that sometimes physical discipline can be necessary and so long as no life threatening injuries...........
No, Mike. I think it probable there was lots of child abuse around you. It just was not visible to you. And its victims would have no reason to inform you since it would all be considered just the way things are.
Not much different than all those kids in abusive school situations who just figger "schools are like that.....yeah they are."
vicki
You don't mention if these places were after the 50's and 60's that you "grew up in small towns in New York" but I can speak to you of just not being aware of your surroundings in either Irving or Dallas.....at least through the 90's. I mean, goodness........they still beat the children in school with wooden paddles that cause bruises and sometimes nerve damage!. And those are given the diminutive term "licks"........considered far less of a punishment than the "whippings" administered at home by probably a much larger portion of parents that you would ever imagine.
"Spankings" are those little swats given to toddlers. No one over 5 years old is "spanked" . Spanking is for babies and open hands are used. (These are NOT my beliefs, just reporting on the culture). Whippings use weapons......belt, switch, rope, cord, paddle, board, maybe even an old fashioned razor strap.
Might be LOTS of stuff that is considered so routine in a child's life that you might never notice even if you visited in the home or heard parents nonchalantly refer to daddy having two belts (black and brown) so that no matter what he might be wearing while away, kids know that there is always one coiled in the top drawer.
Or the ping pong paddle on top of the fridge. Or the "special" paddles made as woodworking projects to give to parents or teachers as a gift.
Small towns in New York certainly not immune. It was a small NY town where I witnessed NY natives use cattle prods and horsewhips......and CPS investigators report that sometimes physical discipline can be necessary and so long as no life threatening injuries...........
No, Mike. I think it probable there was lots of child abuse around you. It just was not visible to you. And its victims would have no reason to inform you since it would all be considered just the way things are.
Not much different than all those kids in abusive school situations who just figger "schools are like that.....yeah they are."
vicki
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Ebbers
5. The places I have lived in did not have visible "child abuse"
around me. This one makes me wonder if I picked the few places it
didn't happen, or if it is less widespread than some people think.
These places include Philmont/Walden/Somers NY state, Akron OH,
Irving/Dallas TX, Minneapolis, and now Poughkeepsie NY.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
vicki wrote:
can tell you that the small insulated little pockets of perfect
small town life had all the big city vices. Incest, rape, wife
beating, and child abuse. This is America we're talking about here.
Same as any other place.
It doesn't take very much to talk to people, really talk to older
people and hear their pain. The young and the very old don't lie
anymore. The young don't know how and the old can't remember and
they tell the truth about their early childhood memories because in
many cases it is their early lives and early pain that they remember
best and the people they used to protect just aren't around anymore.
That is why it is so important to treat children gently: the pain
they experience in their early years follows them around all of
their life.
It isn't hard to find people who talk about the early pain in their
life when their bodies or their spirits were not protected or
respected. I hear it all the time because I listen.
Peggy
> No, Mike. I think it probable there was lots of child abuse around you.I too lived in small towns in upstate NY in the 60's and 70's and I
> It just was not visible to you. And its victims would have no reason to
> inform you since it would all be considered just the way things are.
can tell you that the small insulated little pockets of perfect
small town life had all the big city vices. Incest, rape, wife
beating, and child abuse. This is America we're talking about here.
Same as any other place.
It doesn't take very much to talk to people, really talk to older
people and hear their pain. The young and the very old don't lie
anymore. The young don't know how and the old can't remember and
they tell the truth about their early childhood memories because in
many cases it is their early lives and early pain that they remember
best and the people they used to protect just aren't around anymore.
That is why it is so important to treat children gently: the pain
they experience in their early years follows them around all of
their life.
It isn't hard to find people who talk about the early pain in their
life when their bodies or their spirits were not protected or
respected. I hear it all the time because I listen.
Peggy
Betsy
**I too lived in small towns in upstate NY in the 60's and 70's and I
can tell you that the small insulated little pockets of perfect
small town life had all the big city vices. Incest, rape, wife
beating, and child abuse. This is America we're talking about here.
Same as any other place. **
As a sweeping generalization, let me say that gossip enables most women
to know more than most men about what the neighbors are doing, or
rumored to be doing.
Betsy
can tell you that the small insulated little pockets of perfect
small town life had all the big city vices. Incest, rape, wife
beating, and child abuse. This is America we're talking about here.
Same as any other place. **
As a sweeping generalization, let me say that gossip enables most women
to know more than most men about what the neighbors are doing, or
rumored to be doing.
Betsy
Peggy
Betsy wrote:
No, I think I learned most of these things from teenage friends many of whom
did not survive to adulthood.
I do talk and listen. And the happy rarity is hearing someone who didn't have
something like this in his or her life.
Peggy
> As a sweeping generalization, let me say that gossip enables most womenGossip? I never! ;)
> to know more than most men about what the neighbors are doing, or
> rumored to be doing.
>
> Betsy
No, I think I learned most of these things from teenage friends many of whom
did not survive to adulthood.
I do talk and listen. And the happy rarity is hearing someone who didn't have
something like this in his or her life.
Peggy