Life without limits
Dalene and Andy
Thanks for all your replies, I do enjoy discussing this and I do have a lot to digest. I feel quite comfortable with most of the ideas. I do however find some of the responses (not only to me) on this group harsh, judgemental and aggressive. I do not understand this, since I would think people that so strongly believe in this style of parenting would be far more helpful to help other people in transition (like myself) to understand what unschooling is about. I imagine some people might be turned off by individual aggressive replies rather than the philosophy.
I can relate to Stephanie Elm's posts and a few others, because I think they might not be that far ahead of me in this process and they have an understanding for where I am coming from. I am too regarded as way to relaxed by my friends, and here it is quite opposite. It certainly does challenge my belief system.
I think some of you that are very comfortable within these ideas, have been there for so long and adopted it so fully, that you might have difficulty in understanding other people's fears and concerns.
As far as limits go, someone suggested that I might not trust my children. I don't believe that this is a matter about trust. I believe it is about understanding my role as parent. I have always felt that my role is to love them, guide them and protect them. Within the unschooling approach I understand that I have to love them and guide them, but don't protect them. I'm not quite at ease with that. If feel that I might not be fulfilling my responsibility if I don't protect the and to protect them means to sometimes keep them away.
I think our limits are mostly in three areas - bedtimes, food, and TV. Bedtimes I can see the other side, food is mostly about not limitless sweets which is both a budget and health concern and can't really see us change that, but TV is still a sticky one for me. I hear what you all say about research and that is an interesting outlook - someone said that their five year old commented on a TV programme that they're just having noisy sex. My five year old don't know what sex is, and all honestly I don't want him to know about it just yet. Sure he is bound to ask more questions soon, but I'll wait patiently. I can see that it might be okay to watch the news with Dad, but I still don't think we'll be watching Nine-and-a-half weeks while he is in the room. Someone asked about TV usage in our house. It is very limited. I don't watch much at all and my husband watches some in the evening. The TV aren't on unless we watch.
My experience of parenting without limits have been neglectful ones. Parents that don't set limits, because they could not be bother. And those children's behaviour is not what I would like mine to be. Maybe that is too controlling too, who knows??
I think my uneasiness with all this is that I might make the wrong choice for my children. I might choose to let them find their own limits and that might be the wrong choice for them. Because if we like it or not, we do make decisions for them. We do choose to unschool them and raise them in a particular way. Thinking about it, like anything else, one needs to truly believe in it, before you would be able to let go of all the limits. I am clearly not there, but willing to learn more.
A hypothetical question comes to mind. What would you all do if your young teenager experiences with serious drugs?? I can not imagine giving them all the information and sit back and wait for them to make the right choice?? Off course it would be near impossible to coerce them into giving it up, but I do think I will try.
Thanks for discussing this with me, especially those of you that do it in patience and understanding.
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can relate to Stephanie Elm's posts and a few others, because I think they might not be that far ahead of me in this process and they have an understanding for where I am coming from. I am too regarded as way to relaxed by my friends, and here it is quite opposite. It certainly does challenge my belief system.
I think some of you that are very comfortable within these ideas, have been there for so long and adopted it so fully, that you might have difficulty in understanding other people's fears and concerns.
As far as limits go, someone suggested that I might not trust my children. I don't believe that this is a matter about trust. I believe it is about understanding my role as parent. I have always felt that my role is to love them, guide them and protect them. Within the unschooling approach I understand that I have to love them and guide them, but don't protect them. I'm not quite at ease with that. If feel that I might not be fulfilling my responsibility if I don't protect the and to protect them means to sometimes keep them away.
I think our limits are mostly in three areas - bedtimes, food, and TV. Bedtimes I can see the other side, food is mostly about not limitless sweets which is both a budget and health concern and can't really see us change that, but TV is still a sticky one for me. I hear what you all say about research and that is an interesting outlook - someone said that their five year old commented on a TV programme that they're just having noisy sex. My five year old don't know what sex is, and all honestly I don't want him to know about it just yet. Sure he is bound to ask more questions soon, but I'll wait patiently. I can see that it might be okay to watch the news with Dad, but I still don't think we'll be watching Nine-and-a-half weeks while he is in the room. Someone asked about TV usage in our house. It is very limited. I don't watch much at all and my husband watches some in the evening. The TV aren't on unless we watch.
My experience of parenting without limits have been neglectful ones. Parents that don't set limits, because they could not be bother. And those children's behaviour is not what I would like mine to be. Maybe that is too controlling too, who knows??
I think my uneasiness with all this is that I might make the wrong choice for my children. I might choose to let them find their own limits and that might be the wrong choice for them. Because if we like it or not, we do make decisions for them. We do choose to unschool them and raise them in a particular way. Thinking about it, like anything else, one needs to truly believe in it, before you would be able to let go of all the limits. I am clearly not there, but willing to learn more.
A hypothetical question comes to mind. What would you all do if your young teenager experiences with serious drugs?? I can not imagine giving them all the information and sit back and wait for them to make the right choice?? Off course it would be near impossible to coerce them into giving it up, but I do think I will try.
Thanks for discussing this with me, especially those of you that do it in patience and understanding.
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Todd M.
At 04:10 PM 10/16/02 +1300, you wrote:
What do you mean by "serious" drugs?
Todd
------
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to ME! <g>
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>A hypothetical question comes to mind. What would you all do if your young==
>teenager experiences with serious drugs??
What do you mean by "serious" drugs?
Todd
------
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to ME! <g>
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
Dalene and Andy
Serious drugs - anything other than smoking dope or whatever you call it in your parts of the world??
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mike Ebbers
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Dalene and Andy" <mactier@x> wrote:
parent. It scares me that the parents of the Columbine gunmen were
not aware that their sons were building bombs and storing up an
arsenal in the basement. I think freedom to choose comes in stages,
as the children mature and are able to survive the results of their
choices. So what to wear can be an early choice, while what to eat
and smoke should be left to a little later in life. (These are
midnight examples, please no flame wars.)
Proverbs 3:1-2 says: My son, do not forget my teaching, but guard my
commands in your heart; for long life and years in plenty will they
bring you, and prosperity as well. (Sounds like the rewards are
worth trying for.)
On the other hand, the Bible supports unschooling, with verses like
this: Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old
he will not depart from it.
I have been told by Biblical scholars that, in the original language
of the Bible, this means to know your child, his strengths and
weaknesses, her inborn talents, and then give them full support and
free rein to help them fulfill those qualities/qualifications. If
Johnny wants to be a nurse and Susie wants to be President, do all
you can to help them prepare. That is "the way they should go." And
if you try to train a child in something s/he is not suited for, they
may fail miserably when older and will probably depart from it.
I read earlier today (can't find the exact verse right now) that God
gave each of us unique skills and abilities to accomplish great and
mighty works for him. We each have our individual purpose to
accomplish, the raison d'etre for our life on earth.
Mike
New to unschooling but suspects it does not mean abdicating parental
responsibility to bring his children up right
>As far as limits go, someone suggested that I might not trust myDalene, I am in full agreement with your responsibilities as a
>children. I don't believe that this is a matter about trust. I
>believe it is about understanding my role as parent. I have always
>felt that my role is to love them, guide them and protect them.
>Within the unschooling approach I understand that I have to love
>them and guide them, but don't protect them. I'm not quite at ease
>with that. If feel that I might not be fulfilling my responsibility
>if I don't protect them and to protect them means to sometimes keep
>them away.
parent. It scares me that the parents of the Columbine gunmen were
not aware that their sons were building bombs and storing up an
arsenal in the basement. I think freedom to choose comes in stages,
as the children mature and are able to survive the results of their
choices. So what to wear can be an early choice, while what to eat
and smoke should be left to a little later in life. (These are
midnight examples, please no flame wars.)
Proverbs 3:1-2 says: My son, do not forget my teaching, but guard my
commands in your heart; for long life and years in plenty will they
bring you, and prosperity as well. (Sounds like the rewards are
worth trying for.)
On the other hand, the Bible supports unschooling, with verses like
this: Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old
he will not depart from it.
I have been told by Biblical scholars that, in the original language
of the Bible, this means to know your child, his strengths and
weaknesses, her inborn talents, and then give them full support and
free rein to help them fulfill those qualities/qualifications. If
Johnny wants to be a nurse and Susie wants to be President, do all
you can to help them prepare. That is "the way they should go." And
if you try to train a child in something s/he is not suited for, they
may fail miserably when older and will probably depart from it.
I read earlier today (can't find the exact verse right now) that God
gave each of us unique skills and abilities to accomplish great and
mighty works for him. We each have our individual purpose to
accomplish, the raison d'etre for our life on earth.
Mike
New to unschooling but suspects it does not mean abdicating parental
responsibility to bring his children up right
Stephanie Elms
> Thanks for all your replies, I do enjoy discussing this and ITake your time! There is no rush. I know that I am still processing
> do have a lot to digest. I feel quite comfortable with most
> of the ideas.
and I have been reading here for several months now. And it is
just recently that I have taken the plunge....
Have you read any of the posts at unschooling.com? Before I took the
plunge I searched the archives for tv limits and food limits and read
everything I could find. I found my fears were eased the more I read
about real parents who let their real kids have more control and how
these real kids handled this control. I find that I keep having these
"aha!" moments. I also have always had conflicting feelings about making
food decisions (exactly how much does my son have to eat before he can
get a desert etc). I hated that I started not enjoying making cookies with
Jason because I hated the arguments we would get into later. I always
wondered if I was just a wimpy parent and Jason sensed my weakness because
he always pushed for more. We are still in the adjustment phase (only been
2 weeks (and I have to admit I am still trying to give up complete control!)
but it has not been as bad as I thought. Definitely eating more "junk" food,
but still eating the good stuff too. And they have not gone completely
overboard. We have less arguments which is nice.
Same thing with tv. I used to feel guilty if I let them have a "tv" day. Like
I was not a good parent to have to resort to using the tv. But I have started
watching with them and really seeing why they are enjoying what they are
enjoying. Today was a major tv day. We just got back from the weekend at my ILs.
Stayed up late, lots of attention from the grandparents. Lots of neat stuff (my
ILs took them to the Marine Museum in Va Beach, they had a blast). Pretty long
car ride. I actually understand why Jason only wanted to veg today. I actually
joined him for part of it. The other part of the day was spent playing with
my 2 yo. Jason would join us for a little while then go back to tv. And there
were a couple of times when he turned it off to concentrate on his bionicles
(legos). We will see how tomorrow goes, but I expect that we will probably
not overdose on tv again. Once again, reducing limits has helped me enjoy
the boys more...no arguments over turning it off, fun cuddling on the couch.
Fun enjoying the boys enjoying themselves.
>I do however find some of the responses (notI don't think that anyone is being purposefully harsh. But I agree that no
> only to me) on this group harsh, judgmental and aggressive.
> I do not understand this, since I would think people that so
> strongly believe in this style of parenting would be far more
> helpful to help other people in transition (like myself) to
> understand what unschooling is about. I imagine some people
> might be turned off by individual aggressive replies rather
> than the philosophy.
one is going to hold your hand here. I do not take anything anyone posts
personally (at least I haven't yet!) and honestly have learned a lot from
the blunt posts. I have not always agreed with them, but they have made me
look at things from a different perspective. I first joined this list when
there was a brouhaha (sp??) about what unschooling was and was not. A lot
of bickering back and forth about how people were being mean and too
judgmental. A splinter group broke off to start a "more gentle"
unschooling list. I joined for a little while, but soon unsubbed because
I was not getting anything from it. Not sure if it was because everyone
was being too nice or because I was looking for someone to challenge my
beliefs. The folks here are very good at debating ideas and calling you
on things, asking you to really think about why you do things. If you
can avoid taking things personally you can gain some interesting insights.
At least I know that I have.
>This has been the hardest thing for me. It seems like almost everything
> I can relate to Stephanie Elm's posts and a few others,
> because I think they might not be that far ahead of me in
> this process and they have an understanding for where I am
> coming from. I am too regarded as way to relaxed by my
> friends, and here it is quite opposite. It certainly does
> challenge my belief system.
that I have thought about being a "good" parent is being challenged.
For me that has been a good thing...there are many things that I accepted
that I must do as a good parent that I have not been comfortable with (tv and
food restrictions etc). It is almost a relief for me. I find that I am enjoying
the boys more now that I do not feel the need to enforce restrictions. I feel
closer to them and I do not see any major backlashes yet. I still have issues
that I am working on (will have to post on them later) but for the most part,
the changes we have made lately have been for the good.
>Ohh! Ouch. Now who is being harsh! ;o) But I think that I understand
> As far as limits go, someone suggested that I might not trust
> my children. I don't believe that this is a matter about
> trust. I believe it is about understanding my role as parent.
> I have always felt that my role is to love them, guide them
> and protect them. Within the unschooling approach I
> understand that I have to love them and guide them, but don't
> protect them. I'm not quite at ease with that. If feel that I
> might not be fulfilling my responsibility if I don't protect
> the and to protect them means to sometimes keep them away.
where you are coming from. Protecting is equated with restrictions.
So if there are no restrictions, there is no protection. But I do
not feel that I am harming them by loosening up on restrictions. In
fact I hope that I am giving them a gift by helping them get to know
and trust themselves. I am not throwing up my arms and saying that
you are on your own. I am not turning the tv on and watching CSI
with my 5 yo. Or going out and buying only junk food to have around
the house. I would never do anything that I thought was damaging
to my boys. What I am hearing here is that people who have done
this (given more control to their kids) have had success. I love
reading about the older kids (PamS, Sandra and the others). The
relationship they have with their parents is really what is helping
convince me. I see teenagers who are comfortable talking with their
parents, who value their parents opinions, who take responsibility,
and make good judgment calls. After all the horror stories that I
have heard from friends and on tv about living with teenagers, this
says to me that these folks are on to something.
>Search unschooling.com for food limits...there are several posts that deal
> I think our limits are mostly in three areas - bedtimes,
> food, and TV. Bedtimes I can see the other side, food is
> mostly about not limitless sweets which is both a budget and
> health concern and can't really see us change that,
with exactly these issues. What convinced me is that the people who
post that they give control over food to their kids also tell how
their kids do make good choices, do find a balance (even though they may
binge when first given control). What I have found so far is that the
biggest difference so far is that I do not say no when they want a candy
bar at the store. So far the .50 candy bar has not broken the bank. Jason
did ask for a bag of smarties last week. I think he forgot it was there, but
did ask for it today. He and Kyle ate quite a few (but I fully expected them
to eat the whole bag and there is still 3/4 of it left). We are only 2 weeks
in, so we are still in adjustment phase. But honestly it has not changed my
purchasing too much.
> but TV isHere again I can only comment on our experience (doing the no tv
> still a sticky one for me. I hear what you all say about
> research and that is an interesting outlook - someone said
> that their five year old commented on a TV programme that
> they're just having noisy sex. My five year old don't know
> what sex is, and all honestly I don't want him to know about
> it just yet. Sure he is bound to ask more questions soon, but
> I'll wait patiently. I can see that it might be okay to watch
> the news with Dad, but I still don't think we'll be watching
> Nine-and-a-half weeks while he is in the room. Someone asked
> about TV usage in our house. It is very limited. I don't
> watch much at all and my husband watches some in the evening.
> The TV aren't on unless we watch.
limits for about 4 weeks now). No limits does not mean that we
are watching everything and anything with him around. I don't
suggest that we watch things that I do not think are appropriate
for him. If he expresses an interest in something that I am
really opposed to, I will have to see how I will handle it. But so
far he has not asked to view anything terrible. Today he did ask
to watch Civil War Journal (I tape these and watch them after
he goes to bed because they do have some battle re-enactments that
I thought might be too much for him.) I told him that there might
be some scary or sad parts (talked a bit about war). He decided that
it would be ok and he handled it fine. Plus we had some good discussions
from watching it. He has said that he did not want to watch things as well.
Jason loves the crocodile hunter so he wanted to see the movie when it
came out. We watched the promos for it together and *he* decided that it
was too violent and did not want to be scared.
So far Jason has only asked to watch shows on the history channel, a&e, tlc
and animal planet. He has seen sitcoms like friends or shows like ed but
has no desire to watch them. Now we have tivo, which lets us tape all the
shows we are interested in and watch them whenever we want. So he does not
really channel surf. We can also fast forward through commercials. Maybe
starting out taping the shows might make it easier to make the jump?
> My experience of parenting without limits have beenAhhh. But there is a huge difference. I am not making this decision because
> neglectful ones. Parents that don't set limits, because they
> could not be bother. And those children's behavior is not
> what I would like mine to be. Maybe that is too controlling
> too, who knows??
I can not be bothered. This is a *very* well thought out and researched
decision on my part. I am also not just turning them loose with a remote
and saying go at it with no guidance. I am also very available so they
do not need to turn to the tv for lack of attention. I often watch and enjoy
with them. It is a way of connecting, not just a way of getting them out
of my hair. I also provide my kids with ample opportunities for other activities.
So to compare my kids with parents who are neglecting their children is like
comparing apples and oranges. And I do not think that the outcomes will be the same.
>Yup. I worry too. But do we ever really know if we are making the right decisions
> I think my uneasiness with all this is that I might make the
> wrong choice for my children. I might choose to let them find
> their own limits and that might be the wrong choice for them.
> Because if we like it or not, we do make decisions for them.
> We do choose to unschool them and raise them in a particular
> way. Thinking about it, like anything else, one needs to
> truly believe in it, before you would be able to let go of
> all the limits. I am clearly not there, but willing to learn more.
for our kids? We do the best we can. All I know is that this makes sense to me.
In my gut. The more I read the more it feels right. I have learned when they
were little to follow my instinct and it has not led me wrong yet. Keep reading.
The important thing is that it sounds like you have an open mind. Let it sink in
for awhile. And if it continues to make sense (and it must make sense to you on
some level or you would not be willing to learn more!) you can make the jump
anytime.
I read a thread recently at unschooling.com that had lots of "aha" moments for
me. Of course it might not have the same effect for you, but you might want
to give it a shot:
http://www.unschooling.com/discus/messages/401/6535.html?FridaySeptember620020237am
> A hypothetical question comes to mind. What would you all doHypotheticals are hard to discuss. Having a 5 yo, it is hard for
> if your young teenager experiences with serious drugs?? I can
> not imagine giving them all the information and sit back and
> wait for them to make the right choice?? Off course it would
> be near impossible to coerce them into giving it up, but I do
> think I will try.
me to flash forward to his teenage years. :o) Too many variables
that I do not know. Maybe someone with older kids has some more
insight...but from what I have read, those folks with older kids
have not really run into this problem. I would guess that given
the opportunity to make decisions and have control over their
lives would give them less reasons to turn to drugs. They would
be more open to listening to their parents and drugs would not
have the forbidden fruit appeal. But this is all supposition since
it is all hypothetical.
> Thanks for discussing this with me, especially those of youAnytime...it has been helpful for me as well as I am still working
> that do it in patience and understanding.
out a lot of things in my mind as well.
Stephanie E.
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/15/02 11:02:46 PM Central Daylight Time,
Ozarkren@... writes:
smoking crack, or injecting heroin, or smoking cigarettes? (why do I put
cigarettes with drugs like heroin? Because tobacco is as or more addictive
than heroin.)
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ozarkren@... writes:
> :Yes, are you talking about pot, acid, mushrooms...? Or are you talking about
>
> >A hypothetical question comes to mind. What would you all do if your young
>
> >teenager experiences with serious drugs??
> ==
> What do you mean by "serious" drugs?
>
> Todd
>
smoking crack, or injecting heroin, or smoking cigarettes? (why do I put
cigarettes with drugs like heroin? Because tobacco is as or more addictive
than heroin.)
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Well, my boys are 7 and 5 and we've already talked about the dangers of smoking and drinking many times. I imagine we'll add drugs to the discussion before too many more years go by. Hopefully, they will, like I and my husband did, come to the conclusion that it's not worth losing control and harming your body and mind for a few minutes of feeling good/different/weird. If they do choose to start experimenting, I would definitely be taking them to talk to some people who had problems with drugs when they were teenagers.
Myranda
From: Dalene and Andy
<snip> A hypothetical question comes to mind. What would you all do if your young teenager experiences with serious drugs?? I can not imagine giving them all the information and sit back and wait for them to make the right choice?? Off course it would be near impossible to coerce them into giving it up, but I do think I will try. <snip>
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Dalene and Andy
<snip> A hypothetical question comes to mind. What would you all do if your young teenager experiences with serious drugs?? I can not imagine giving them all the information and sit back and wait for them to make the right choice?? Off course it would be near impossible to coerce them into giving it up, but I do think I will try. <snip>
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Aren't all drugs serious? Even if they are mild, they usually are just a stepping stone to stronger, more addictive, drugs.
Myranda
==
What do you mean by "serious" drugs?
Todd
------
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to ME! <g>
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
==
What do you mean by "serious" drugs?
Todd
------
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to ME! <g>
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
Hi, Myranda!!
At 07:57 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
times growing up and since then, too, but in my own experience and in
knowing many, many people who have used or still use drugs, I have rarely
(if ever) seen that "stepping stone" thing that the drug "experts" warned
us about. I think it's like almost everything else. People who are gonna
do drugs are gonna do drugs. People who are not gonna do drugs are not.
I certainly did my share of using drugs as a kid and when I got to be about
18 or 19 years old I realized that I liked myself better for the most part
when I was straight. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy smoking grass
or dropping acid, because I really did! It was fun. It eventually became
more fun for me being straight. Oddly enough, I never got in trouble for
taking drugs! (I sure did get in a heap of trouble over other stuff, like
skipping school, ferinstance.) I never ever liked alcohol (I could never
get it past my nose). Same with coffee. I did enjoy smoking cigarettes,
too, but I felt it was messing up my voice and that freaked me out enough
to quit "cold turkey" when I was 18.
I've known loads of folks who have smoked pot and drank and did all kinds
of drugs but either stopped or still smoke pot to this day and never went
on to stronger or addictive drugs. In my opinion, that's a lot propaganda
and hooey to scare people away from marijuana, which was William Randolph
Hearst's big issue. That's because, as I understand it, hemp used to be
the crop used to make paper. And, it was a sensible crop to use because it
was quickly and easily regrown and left forests standing whole. It was a
renewable resource. And, it was fairly cheap! But WRH was invested
heavily in deforestation to produce paper. So, if he was going to be
successful in that endeavor, hemp would have to be made illegal. He began
an enormous propaganda campaign to the end. Anyone who is interested can
google "hemp," "hearst," and "propaganda," and you'll find plenty more
information about it.
Anyway, when I have that "talk" with Liam about drugs, I'm going to tell
him the truth! That's what he deserves!
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
At 07:57 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
>Aren't all drugs serious? Even if they are mild, they usually are just aI can't say that I agree with that! Although, I know I heard it lots of
>stepping stone to stronger, more addictive, drugs.
times growing up and since then, too, but in my own experience and in
knowing many, many people who have used or still use drugs, I have rarely
(if ever) seen that "stepping stone" thing that the drug "experts" warned
us about. I think it's like almost everything else. People who are gonna
do drugs are gonna do drugs. People who are not gonna do drugs are not.
I certainly did my share of using drugs as a kid and when I got to be about
18 or 19 years old I realized that I liked myself better for the most part
when I was straight. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy smoking grass
or dropping acid, because I really did! It was fun. It eventually became
more fun for me being straight. Oddly enough, I never got in trouble for
taking drugs! (I sure did get in a heap of trouble over other stuff, like
skipping school, ferinstance.) I never ever liked alcohol (I could never
get it past my nose). Same with coffee. I did enjoy smoking cigarettes,
too, but I felt it was messing up my voice and that freaked me out enough
to quit "cold turkey" when I was 18.
I've known loads of folks who have smoked pot and drank and did all kinds
of drugs but either stopped or still smoke pot to this day and never went
on to stronger or addictive drugs. In my opinion, that's a lot propaganda
and hooey to scare people away from marijuana, which was William Randolph
Hearst's big issue. That's because, as I understand it, hemp used to be
the crop used to make paper. And, it was a sensible crop to use because it
was quickly and easily regrown and left forests standing whole. It was a
renewable resource. And, it was fairly cheap! But WRH was invested
heavily in deforestation to produce paper. So, if he was going to be
successful in that endeavor, hemp would have to be made illegal. He began
an enormous propaganda campaign to the end. Anyone who is interested can
google "hemp," "hearst," and "propaganda," and you'll find plenty more
information about it.
Anyway, when I have that "talk" with Liam about drugs, I'm going to tell
him the truth! That's what he deserves!
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Hi Marji!!!
OK, I have to say that I strongly disagree with marijuana being made illegal! I don't think it should ever have been classified as a drug at all. It is one thing that has numerous uses, is not harmful when smoked in moderation, and is very healing for some things, including pain relief.
But - lol another but - although I never did any kind of drugs myself, my teenage years were spent being friends with, having boyfriends, and even living with drug sellers in south Georgia. I know for a fact that they will actively recruit users by getting young people started with the "mild" drugs (pot being a favorite), and then a few weeks to a month later, saying they have something a little better, and getting them onto that. And so on and so on til you're looking at a kid with a serious crack or heroin addiction, and doing mushrooms or some other hallucinogenic on top of that. It's a money-maker to them. The deeper they can get a kid in, the more seriously addictive drugs they can get them on, the more money they can make. My boyfriend's step-father told me one day that one kid will on average make him over $500 a month, easily. Take 10-15 kids buying from him at any given time, and you've got a sizable, steady income that they're willing to fight tooth and nail to hang on to.
I learned a lot of things the couple years I spent with one family (anyone need a car stolen? LOL), but that one lesson has stuck with me the longest and best. I know that a lot of kids get drugs at school or through a friend and will go no further, but there are plenty of people out there actively looking to get kids deeply addicted, and they'd love nothing better than to find one already on the "mild" stuff. It's a dangerous world out there when you get too deep into it. Several of my old friends are now dead, including the boyfriend's stepfather who was shot by an addict who broke in to steal some drugs since he didn't have the money to buy them. The addict was a boy that I'd gone to church with, had helped us build the church, and had worked beside me in the sound/light room during special events. So sad, he's still in jail and will be for quite a while.
So, maybe I'm biased from my experiences, but I just can't downplay the effect of drugs. They damage, they hurt, they kill.
Myranda
Hi, Myranda!!
I can't say that I agree with that! Although, I know I heard it lots of
times growing up and since then, too, but in my own experience and in
knowing many, many people who have used or still use drugs, I have rarely
(if ever) seen that "stepping stone" thing that the drug "experts" warned
us about. I think it's like almost everything else. People who are gonna
do drugs are gonna do drugs. People who are not gonna do drugs are not.
I certainly did my share of using drugs as a kid and when I got to be about
18 or 19 years old I realized that I liked myself better for the most part
when I was straight. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy smoking grass
or dropping acid, because I really did! It was fun. It eventually became
more fun for me being straight. Oddly enough, I never got in trouble for
taking drugs! (I sure did get in a heap of trouble over other stuff, like
skipping school, ferinstance.) I never ever liked alcohol (I could never
get it past my nose). Same with coffee. I did enjoy smoking cigarettes,
too, but I felt it was messing up my voice and that freaked me out enough
to quit "cold turkey" when I was 18.
I've known loads of folks who have smoked pot and drank and did all kinds
of drugs but either stopped or still smoke pot to this day and never went
on to stronger or addictive drugs. In my opinion, that's a lot propaganda
and hooey to scare people away from marijuana, which was William Randolph
Hearst's big issue. That's because, as I understand it, hemp used to be
the crop used to make paper. And, it was a sensible crop to use because it
was quickly and easily regrown and left forests standing whole. It was a
renewable resource. And, it was fairly cheap! But WRH was invested
heavily in deforestation to produce paper. So, if he was going to be
successful in that endeavor, hemp would have to be made illegal. He began
an enormous propaganda campaign to the end. Anyone who is interested can
google "hemp," "hearst," and "propaganda," and you'll find plenty more
information about it.
Anyway, when I have that "talk" with Liam about drugs, I'm going to tell
him the truth! That's what he deserves!
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OK, I have to say that I strongly disagree with marijuana being made illegal! I don't think it should ever have been classified as a drug at all. It is one thing that has numerous uses, is not harmful when smoked in moderation, and is very healing for some things, including pain relief.
But - lol another but - although I never did any kind of drugs myself, my teenage years were spent being friends with, having boyfriends, and even living with drug sellers in south Georgia. I know for a fact that they will actively recruit users by getting young people started with the "mild" drugs (pot being a favorite), and then a few weeks to a month later, saying they have something a little better, and getting them onto that. And so on and so on til you're looking at a kid with a serious crack or heroin addiction, and doing mushrooms or some other hallucinogenic on top of that. It's a money-maker to them. The deeper they can get a kid in, the more seriously addictive drugs they can get them on, the more money they can make. My boyfriend's step-father told me one day that one kid will on average make him over $500 a month, easily. Take 10-15 kids buying from him at any given time, and you've got a sizable, steady income that they're willing to fight tooth and nail to hang on to.
I learned a lot of things the couple years I spent with one family (anyone need a car stolen? LOL), but that one lesson has stuck with me the longest and best. I know that a lot of kids get drugs at school or through a friend and will go no further, but there are plenty of people out there actively looking to get kids deeply addicted, and they'd love nothing better than to find one already on the "mild" stuff. It's a dangerous world out there when you get too deep into it. Several of my old friends are now dead, including the boyfriend's stepfather who was shot by an addict who broke in to steal some drugs since he didn't have the money to buy them. The addict was a boy that I'd gone to church with, had helped us build the church, and had worked beside me in the sound/light room during special events. So sad, he's still in jail and will be for quite a while.
So, maybe I'm biased from my experiences, but I just can't downplay the effect of drugs. They damage, they hurt, they kill.
Myranda
Hi, Myranda!!
I can't say that I agree with that! Although, I know I heard it lots of
times growing up and since then, too, but in my own experience and in
knowing many, many people who have used or still use drugs, I have rarely
(if ever) seen that "stepping stone" thing that the drug "experts" warned
us about. I think it's like almost everything else. People who are gonna
do drugs are gonna do drugs. People who are not gonna do drugs are not.
I certainly did my share of using drugs as a kid and when I got to be about
18 or 19 years old I realized that I liked myself better for the most part
when I was straight. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy smoking grass
or dropping acid, because I really did! It was fun. It eventually became
more fun for me being straight. Oddly enough, I never got in trouble for
taking drugs! (I sure did get in a heap of trouble over other stuff, like
skipping school, ferinstance.) I never ever liked alcohol (I could never
get it past my nose). Same with coffee. I did enjoy smoking cigarettes,
too, but I felt it was messing up my voice and that freaked me out enough
to quit "cold turkey" when I was 18.
I've known loads of folks who have smoked pot and drank and did all kinds
of drugs but either stopped or still smoke pot to this day and never went
on to stronger or addictive drugs. In my opinion, that's a lot propaganda
and hooey to scare people away from marijuana, which was William Randolph
Hearst's big issue. That's because, as I understand it, hemp used to be
the crop used to make paper. And, it was a sensible crop to use because it
was quickly and easily regrown and left forests standing whole. It was a
renewable resource. And, it was fairly cheap! But WRH was invested
heavily in deforestation to produce paper. So, if he was going to be
successful in that endeavor, hemp would have to be made illegal. He began
an enormous propaganda campaign to the end. Anyone who is interested can
google "hemp," "hearst," and "propaganda," and you'll find plenty more
information about it.
Anyway, when I have that "talk" with Liam about drugs, I'm going to tell
him the truth! That's what he deserves!
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 09:12 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
drugs. There is a tremendous drug market, and not just for illegal drugs,
either! (A whole other topic, right?) I guess what I mean to say is that a
person who has a strong sense of self will have an easier time navigating
those choppy waters.
I grew up right outside of NYC, and if someone wanted to buy drugs you
could drive right down the street and get _anything_ you wanted as though
it were the MacDonalds drive-through. But, I never met a drug recruiter,
if you will, and by that I mean someone who tried to coax me into taking
anything. So, I'm reporting on my experience and the experience of the
people I was surrounded by.
My point, as I said earlier, was that people who are going to do drugs are
going to do them. I believe that people who have a strong sense of self
will be able to stop doing drugs if that's what they want to do. It
appears to me that addictions occur in people who have a serious need for
some kind of escape (all kinds of addictions, drugs and alcohol being only
two of the many). These are the folks who can fall prey to drug
pushers. And, I believe they would fall prey whether they were already
smoking pot or had never smoked a thing in their lives.
I think that kids have a better shot at succeeding here if we show them we
trust them enough to be truthful with them, not just to scare them. I
think that your experience is a valuable one to share with your kids (when
they're ready to grasp it) because you can be truthful with them about it;
it was your experience. My talk with Liam will be different than yours
because he deserves the truth from me, and my truth was not the same as
yours. Of course, part of what he will hear will be that drug pushers and
marketers of all stripes (legal and illegal) are profiteers. He'll need to
know how to follow his instincts and sift out the truth as best he can and
know the best course for him to go. Hopefully, he won't have much need for
escape, and if he does experiment with drugs, he'll be able to stay strong
and be in touch with himself. Hopefully, he and I will have open enough
communications and trust between us so that he will be able to seek out my
counsel if he is not sure which way to go.
I think that all this needs to be in the mix when we're talking about kids
avoiding addictions and all the other kinds of trouble kids can get into.
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Hi Marji!!!:-D It was fun meeting you and your very sweet family!!
><snip> But - lol another but - although I never did any kind of drugsI don't deny that this is true, that people get in over their heads with
>myself, my teenage years were spent being friends with, having boyfriends,
>and even living with drug sellers in south Georgia. I know for a fact that
>they will actively recruit users by getting young people started with the
>"mild" drugs (pot being a favorite), and then a few weeks to a month
>later, saying they have something a little better, and getting them onto
>that. And so on and so on til you're looking at a kid with a serious crack
>or heroin addiction, and doing mushrooms or some other hallucinogenic on
>top of that. It's a money-maker to them. <snip>
drugs. There is a tremendous drug market, and not just for illegal drugs,
either! (A whole other topic, right?) I guess what I mean to say is that a
person who has a strong sense of self will have an easier time navigating
those choppy waters.
I grew up right outside of NYC, and if someone wanted to buy drugs you
could drive right down the street and get _anything_ you wanted as though
it were the MacDonalds drive-through. But, I never met a drug recruiter,
if you will, and by that I mean someone who tried to coax me into taking
anything. So, I'm reporting on my experience and the experience of the
people I was surrounded by.
My point, as I said earlier, was that people who are going to do drugs are
going to do them. I believe that people who have a strong sense of self
will be able to stop doing drugs if that's what they want to do. It
appears to me that addictions occur in people who have a serious need for
some kind of escape (all kinds of addictions, drugs and alcohol being only
two of the many). These are the folks who can fall prey to drug
pushers. And, I believe they would fall prey whether they were already
smoking pot or had never smoked a thing in their lives.
I think that kids have a better shot at succeeding here if we show them we
trust them enough to be truthful with them, not just to scare them. I
think that your experience is a valuable one to share with your kids (when
they're ready to grasp it) because you can be truthful with them about it;
it was your experience. My talk with Liam will be different than yours
because he deserves the truth from me, and my truth was not the same as
yours. Of course, part of what he will hear will be that drug pushers and
marketers of all stripes (legal and illegal) are profiteers. He'll need to
know how to follow his instincts and sift out the truth as best he can and
know the best course for him to go. Hopefully, he won't have much need for
escape, and if he does experiment with drugs, he'll be able to stay strong
and be in touch with himself. Hopefully, he and I will have open enough
communications and trust between us so that he will be able to seek out my
counsel if he is not sure which way to go.
I think that all this needs to be in the mix when we're talking about kids
avoiding addictions and all the other kinds of trouble kids can get into.
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: marji
:-D It was fun meeting you and your very sweet family!!
** Thanks, it was wonderful meeting you and Liam too!!!
I don't deny that this is true, that people get in over their heads with
drugs. There is a tremendous drug market, and not just for illegal drugs,
either! (A whole other topic, right?) I guess what I mean to say is that a
person who has a strong sense of self will have an easier time navigating
those choppy waters.
** Hmmm maybe that's a reason I was never tempted to even try anything. I always feared the lack of control, that I wouldn't be "me", if that makes any sense. Although I drink sometimes, I've never drank to the point of getting drunk, either, for the same reason.
I grew up right outside of NYC, and if someone wanted to buy drugs you
could drive right down the street and get _anything_ you wanted as though
it were the MacDonalds drive-through. But, I never met a drug recruiter,
if you will, and by that I mean someone who tried to coax me into taking
anything. So, I'm reporting on my experience and the experience of the
people I was surrounded by.
** I've heard that about the big cities. In smaller cities, though, the sellers are much more careful and picky about who they sell to. I guess they have to be, there's just not too many ways they can fade into the background if the law comes sniffing around in a small-town atmosphere.
My point, as I said earlier, was that people who are going to do drugs are
going to do them.
** You don't think that it's possible to change minds by educating them about the dangers? I know some won't care, but surely it would get thru to some others?
I believe that people who have a strong sense of self
will be able to stop doing drugs if that's what they want to do. It
appears to me that addictions occur in people who have a serious need for
some kind of escape (all kinds of addictions, drugs and alcohol being only
two of the many). These are the folks who can fall prey to drug
pushers. And, I believe they would fall prey whether they were already
smoking pot or had never smoked a thing in their lives.
** I definitely agree!!! If someone is happy and secure with who they are, they would have no need to rely on escapes such as addictions to drugs, drink, or gambling. Experiment with, sure, but not to the point of being addicted to.
I think that kids have a better shot at succeeding here if we show them we
trust them enough to be truthful with them, not just to scare them. I
think that your experience is a valuable one to share with your kids (when
they're ready to grasp it) because you can be truthful with them about it;
it was your experience. My talk with Liam will be different than yours
because he deserves the truth from me, and my truth was not the same as
yours. Of course, part of what he will hear will be that drug pushers and
marketers of all stripes (legal and illegal) are profiteers. He'll need to
know how to follow his instincts and sift out the truth as best he can and
know the best course for him to go. Hopefully, he won't have much need for
escape, and if he does experiment with drugs, he'll be able to stay strong
and be in touch with himself. Hopefully, he and I will have open enough
communications and trust between us so that he will be able to seek out my
counsel if he is not sure which way to go.
** OK, question here for everyone. Did you talk to your parents when you had concerns about drugs, sex, drink, etc? What was it about them and/or the way they treated you that made you feel comfortable doing so or not doing so?
My mom always talked to me about everything, and I talked to her about other everyday things, but I never felt comfortable talking to her about stuff like this, so I never did. It liked to have killed me to tell her I was pregnant the first time, and I was married! My dad, well, he was never really around much, always working or parked in front of a TV, so I never talked to him or he to me about anything at all. I want my children to feel comfortable enough to talk to me about anything, and they do now, thank goodness, but I don't know how the teenage years will change that. Will the boys only feel comfortable talking to Dad? Anything in particular I can do so they feel equally comfortable with me? Just things I've been wondering about for awhile!!
Myranda
I think that all this needs to be in the mix when we're talking about kids
avoiding addictions and all the other kinds of trouble kids can get into.
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
:-D It was fun meeting you and your very sweet family!!
** Thanks, it was wonderful meeting you and Liam too!!!
I don't deny that this is true, that people get in over their heads with
drugs. There is a tremendous drug market, and not just for illegal drugs,
either! (A whole other topic, right?) I guess what I mean to say is that a
person who has a strong sense of self will have an easier time navigating
those choppy waters.
** Hmmm maybe that's a reason I was never tempted to even try anything. I always feared the lack of control, that I wouldn't be "me", if that makes any sense. Although I drink sometimes, I've never drank to the point of getting drunk, either, for the same reason.
I grew up right outside of NYC, and if someone wanted to buy drugs you
could drive right down the street and get _anything_ you wanted as though
it were the MacDonalds drive-through. But, I never met a drug recruiter,
if you will, and by that I mean someone who tried to coax me into taking
anything. So, I'm reporting on my experience and the experience of the
people I was surrounded by.
** I've heard that about the big cities. In smaller cities, though, the sellers are much more careful and picky about who they sell to. I guess they have to be, there's just not too many ways they can fade into the background if the law comes sniffing around in a small-town atmosphere.
My point, as I said earlier, was that people who are going to do drugs are
going to do them.
** You don't think that it's possible to change minds by educating them about the dangers? I know some won't care, but surely it would get thru to some others?
I believe that people who have a strong sense of self
will be able to stop doing drugs if that's what they want to do. It
appears to me that addictions occur in people who have a serious need for
some kind of escape (all kinds of addictions, drugs and alcohol being only
two of the many). These are the folks who can fall prey to drug
pushers. And, I believe they would fall prey whether they were already
smoking pot or had never smoked a thing in their lives.
** I definitely agree!!! If someone is happy and secure with who they are, they would have no need to rely on escapes such as addictions to drugs, drink, or gambling. Experiment with, sure, but not to the point of being addicted to.
I think that kids have a better shot at succeeding here if we show them we
trust them enough to be truthful with them, not just to scare them. I
think that your experience is a valuable one to share with your kids (when
they're ready to grasp it) because you can be truthful with them about it;
it was your experience. My talk with Liam will be different than yours
because he deserves the truth from me, and my truth was not the same as
yours. Of course, part of what he will hear will be that drug pushers and
marketers of all stripes (legal and illegal) are profiteers. He'll need to
know how to follow his instincts and sift out the truth as best he can and
know the best course for him to go. Hopefully, he won't have much need for
escape, and if he does experiment with drugs, he'll be able to stay strong
and be in touch with himself. Hopefully, he and I will have open enough
communications and trust between us so that he will be able to seek out my
counsel if he is not sure which way to go.
** OK, question here for everyone. Did you talk to your parents when you had concerns about drugs, sex, drink, etc? What was it about them and/or the way they treated you that made you feel comfortable doing so or not doing so?
My mom always talked to me about everything, and I talked to her about other everyday things, but I never felt comfortable talking to her about stuff like this, so I never did. It liked to have killed me to tell her I was pregnant the first time, and I was married! My dad, well, he was never really around much, always working or parked in front of a TV, so I never talked to him or he to me about anything at all. I want my children to feel comfortable enough to talk to me about anything, and they do now, thank goodness, but I don't know how the teenage years will change that. Will the boys only feel comfortable talking to Dad? Anything in particular I can do so they feel equally comfortable with me? Just things I've been wondering about for awhile!!
Myranda
I think that all this needs to be in the mix when we're talking about kids
avoiding addictions and all the other kinds of trouble kids can get into.
Love,
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Kelli Traaseth
Thanks Stephanie for replying to Dalene's questions. I wanted to last night, but I was so tired my eyes were crossing.
Dalene, I can totally understand what you are saying in the 'trust' and protecting our children. I was (and still am probably) the same way but I'm slowly learning a new way of thinking. And it has been just kind of slowing make its may into my brain. It shows up in all parts of our lives. Like I've said before, I grew up with my parents 'protecting' me. In my case my parents really were uneducated. They did the best they could do and they believed that 'good' parents did those things. For example: Informed me that I had to go to bed at this exact time, I had to: brush my hair, teeth, wear the right clothes, go to church every Sunday, act this and that way, and really never allowed me to feel my feelings. Never said, "gee, you are feeling depressed or sad, sure you can have a day just to figure out how you are feeling". Which maybe that would have enabled me to get through things and then I would have chosen to do those things.
I know that this is my case (and sorry its so long) and this probably isn't your case but I think what people are saying that if we are honest, caring and patient with our children they will then grow to be caring, responsible people. They'll know that drugs hurt their bodies, they'll know that if they don't go to bed they'll be tired, they'll figure out if they have too much caffeine they'll sleep lousy and maybe not feel good the next day. This is what is happening with my 9 yr old right now. And he is figuring it out marvelously, the soccer game they went to, first he wanted to save a pop for the game and then he thought he'd drink one on the way home in the car too. I was just kind-of going OK, I'm not going to say "you can't do that" so I said, " you know what, if you drink that Mountain Dew Code Red in the car at 9:00 you might have a really hard time falling asleep when you do want to sleep and you might not feel so good. But its up to you." Well, he opted to have a Sprite, which I know still has sugar. But he is figuring it out. He didn't have a soda until he was maybe 4 years old because I never offered it to him, well, with the other kids they've been around it more because Alec is there. One daughter never has a pop, the other sometimes does, but its not a big deal. When I was first a parent, my view was, no pop, no TV, no Nintendo. Very extreme. So I've really changed my views.
As far as drugs, I'm hoping I will instill in them the self-worth that they want to take care of their bodies and can recognize if something is bad for them. My son can't believe that people even want to take drugs, he can't figure it out. Which I know he is young, but I believe if we as parents instill in them positive self-esteems and educate them on the benefits of eating right and taking care of ourselves, they'll do the right thing.
We can't control what other people do, such as peer pressures and we can't control what people put on TV or in the theaters or in books, but what we can control is how be act about those things and then our children will eventually learn how to make the right decisions.
I hope this helps, I really don't mean to be harsh or aggressive. And it probably was too long. But I really want you to know that I know where you are coming from.
My best,
Kelli
Stephanie Elms <stephanie.elms@...> wrote:> Thanks for all your replies, I do enjoy discussing this and I
and I have been reading here for several months now. And it is
just recently that I have taken the plunge....
Have you read any of the posts at unschooling.com? Before I took the
plunge I searched the archives for tv limits and food limits and read
everything I could find. I found my fears were eased the more I read
about real parents who let their real kids have more control and how
these real kids handled this control. I find that I keep having these
"aha!" moments. I also have always had conflicting feelings about making
food decisions (exactly how much does my son have to eat before he can
get a desert etc). I hated that I started not enjoying making cookies with
Jason because I hated the arguments we would get into later. I always
wondered if I was just a wimpy parent and Jason sensed my weakness because
he always pushed for more. We are still in the adjustment phase (only been
2 weeks (and I have to admit I am still trying to give up complete control!)
but it has not been as bad as I thought. Definitely eating more "junk" food,
but still eating the good stuff too. And they have not gone completely
overboard. We have less arguments which is nice.
Same thing with tv. I used to feel guilty if I let them have a "tv" day. Like
I was not a good parent to have to resort to using the tv. But I have started
watching with them and really seeing why they are enjoying what they are
enjoying. Today was a major tv day. We just got back from the weekend at my ILs.
Stayed up late, lots of attention from the grandparents. Lots of neat stuff (my
ILs took them to the Marine Museum in Va Beach, they had a blast). Pretty long
car ride. I actually understand why Jason only wanted to veg today. I actually
joined him for part of it. The other part of the day was spent playing with
my 2 yo. Jason would join us for a little while then go back to tv. And there
were a couple of times when he turned it off to concentrate on his bionicles
(legos). We will see how tomorrow goes, but I expect that we will probably
not overdose on tv again. Once again, reducing limits has helped me enjoy
the boys more...no arguments over turning it off, fun cuddling on the couch.
Fun enjoying the boys enjoying themselves.
one is going to hold your hand here. I do not take anything anyone posts
personally (at least I haven't yet!) and honestly have learned a lot from
the blunt posts. I have not always agreed with them, but they have made me
look at things from a different perspective. I first joined this list when
there was a brouhaha (sp??) about what unschooling was and was not. A lot
of bickering back and forth about how people were being mean and too
judgmental. A splinter group broke off to start a "more gentle"
unschooling list. I joined for a little while, but soon unsubbed because
I was not getting anything from it. Not sure if it was because everyone
was being too nice or because I was looking for someone to challenge my
beliefs. The folks here are very good at debating ideas and calling you
on things, asking you to really think about why you do things. If you
can avoid taking things personally you can gain some interesting insights.
At least I know that I have.
that I have thought about being a "good" parent is being challenged.
For me that has been a good thing...there are many things that I accepted
that I must do as a good parent that I have not been comfortable with (tv and
food restrictions etc). It is almost a relief for me. I find that I am enjoying
the boys more now that I do not feel the need to enforce restrictions. I feel
closer to them and I do not see any major backlashes yet. I still have issues
that I am working on (will have to post on them later) but for the most part,
the changes we have made lately have been for the good.
where you are coming from. Protecting is equated with restrictions.
So if there are no restrictions, there is no protection. But I do
not feel that I am harming them by loosening up on restrictions. In
fact I hope that I am giving them a gift by helping them get to know
and trust themselves. I am not throwing up my arms and saying that
you are on your own. I am not turning the tv on and watching CSI
with my 5 yo. Or going out and buying only junk food to have around
the house. I would never do anything that I thought was damaging
to my boys. What I am hearing here is that people who have done
this (given more control to their kids) have had success. I love
reading about the older kids (PamS, Sandra and the others). The
relationship they have with their parents is really what is helping
convince me. I see teenagers who are comfortable talking with their
parents, who value their parents opinions, who take responsibility,
and make good judgment calls. After all the horror stories that I
have heard from friends and on tv about living with teenagers, this
says to me that these folks are on to something.
with exactly these issues. What convinced me is that the people who
post that they give control over food to their kids also tell how
their kids do make good choices, do find a balance (even though they may
binge when first given control). What I have found so far is that the
biggest difference so far is that I do not say no when they want a candy
bar at the store. So far the .50 candy bar has not broken the bank. Jason
did ask for a bag of smarties last week. I think he forgot it was there, but
did ask for it today. He and Kyle ate quite a few (but I fully expected them
to eat the whole bag and there is still 3/4 of it left). We are only 2 weeks
in, so we are still in adjustment phase. But honestly it has not changed my
purchasing too much.
limits for about 4 weeks now). No limits does not mean that we
are watching everything and anything with him around. I don't
suggest that we watch things that I do not think are appropriate
for him. If he expresses an interest in something that I am
really opposed to, I will have to see how I will handle it. But so
far he has not asked to view anything terrible. Today he did ask
to watch Civil War Journal (I tape these and watch them after
he goes to bed because they do have some battle re-enactments that
I thought might be too much for him.) I told him that there might
be some scary or sad parts (talked a bit about war). He decided that
it would be ok and he handled it fine. Plus we had some good discussions
from watching it. He has said that he did not want to watch things as well.
Jason loves the crocodile hunter so he wanted to see the movie when it
came out. We watched the promos for it together and *he* decided that it
was too violent and did not want to be scared.
So far Jason has only asked to watch shows on the history channel, a&e, tlc
and animal planet. He has seen sitcoms like friends or shows like ed but
has no desire to watch them. Now we have tivo, which lets us tape all the
shows we are interested in and watch them whenever we want. So he does not
really channel surf. We can also fast forward through commercials. Maybe
starting out taping the shows might make it easier to make the jump?
I can not be bothered. This is a *very* well thought out and researched
decision on my part. I am also not just turning them loose with a remote
and saying go at it with no guidance. I am also very available so they
do not need to turn to the tv for lack of attention. I often watch and enjoy
with them. It is a way of connecting, not just a way of getting them out
of my hair. I also provide my kids with ample opportunities for other activities.
So to compare my kids with parents who are neglecting their children is like
comparing apples and oranges. And I do not think that the outcomes will be the same.
for our kids? We do the best we can. All I know is that this makes sense to me.
In my gut. The more I read the more it feels right. I have learned when they
were little to follow my instinct and it has not led me wrong yet. Keep reading.
The important thing is that it sounds like you have an open mind. Let it sink in
for awhile. And if it continues to make sense (and it must make sense to you on
some level or you would not be willing to learn more!) you can make the jump
anytime.
I read a thread recently at unschooling.com that had lots of "aha" moments for
me. Of course it might not have the same effect for you, but you might want
to give it a shot:
http://www.unschooling.com/discus/messages/401/6535.html?FridaySeptember620020237am
me to flash forward to his teenage years. :o) Too many variables
that I do not know. Maybe someone with older kids has some more
insight...but from what I have read, those folks with older kids
have not really run into this problem. I would guess that given
the opportunity to make decisions and have control over their
lives would give them less reasons to turn to drugs. They would
be more open to listening to their parents and drugs would not
have the forbidden fruit appeal. But this is all supposition since
it is all hypothetical.
out a lot of things in my mind as well.
Stephanie E.
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dalene, I can totally understand what you are saying in the 'trust' and protecting our children. I was (and still am probably) the same way but I'm slowly learning a new way of thinking. And it has been just kind of slowing make its may into my brain. It shows up in all parts of our lives. Like I've said before, I grew up with my parents 'protecting' me. In my case my parents really were uneducated. They did the best they could do and they believed that 'good' parents did those things. For example: Informed me that I had to go to bed at this exact time, I had to: brush my hair, teeth, wear the right clothes, go to church every Sunday, act this and that way, and really never allowed me to feel my feelings. Never said, "gee, you are feeling depressed or sad, sure you can have a day just to figure out how you are feeling". Which maybe that would have enabled me to get through things and then I would have chosen to do those things.
I know that this is my case (and sorry its so long) and this probably isn't your case but I think what people are saying that if we are honest, caring and patient with our children they will then grow to be caring, responsible people. They'll know that drugs hurt their bodies, they'll know that if they don't go to bed they'll be tired, they'll figure out if they have too much caffeine they'll sleep lousy and maybe not feel good the next day. This is what is happening with my 9 yr old right now. And he is figuring it out marvelously, the soccer game they went to, first he wanted to save a pop for the game and then he thought he'd drink one on the way home in the car too. I was just kind-of going OK, I'm not going to say "you can't do that" so I said, " you know what, if you drink that Mountain Dew Code Red in the car at 9:00 you might have a really hard time falling asleep when you do want to sleep and you might not feel so good. But its up to you." Well, he opted to have a Sprite, which I know still has sugar. But he is figuring it out. He didn't have a soda until he was maybe 4 years old because I never offered it to him, well, with the other kids they've been around it more because Alec is there. One daughter never has a pop, the other sometimes does, but its not a big deal. When I was first a parent, my view was, no pop, no TV, no Nintendo. Very extreme. So I've really changed my views.
As far as drugs, I'm hoping I will instill in them the self-worth that they want to take care of their bodies and can recognize if something is bad for them. My son can't believe that people even want to take drugs, he can't figure it out. Which I know he is young, but I believe if we as parents instill in them positive self-esteems and educate them on the benefits of eating right and taking care of ourselves, they'll do the right thing.
We can't control what other people do, such as peer pressures and we can't control what people put on TV or in the theaters or in books, but what we can control is how be act about those things and then our children will eventually learn how to make the right decisions.
I hope this helps, I really don't mean to be harsh or aggressive. And it probably was too long. But I really want you to know that I know where you are coming from.
My best,
Kelli
Stephanie Elms <stephanie.elms@...> wrote:> Thanks for all your replies, I do enjoy discussing this and I
> do have a lot to digest. I feel quite comfortable with mostTake your time! There is no rush. I know that I am still processing
> of the ideas.
and I have been reading here for several months now. And it is
just recently that I have taken the plunge....
Have you read any of the posts at unschooling.com? Before I took the
plunge I searched the archives for tv limits and food limits and read
everything I could find. I found my fears were eased the more I read
about real parents who let their real kids have more control and how
these real kids handled this control. I find that I keep having these
"aha!" moments. I also have always had conflicting feelings about making
food decisions (exactly how much does my son have to eat before he can
get a desert etc). I hated that I started not enjoying making cookies with
Jason because I hated the arguments we would get into later. I always
wondered if I was just a wimpy parent and Jason sensed my weakness because
he always pushed for more. We are still in the adjustment phase (only been
2 weeks (and I have to admit I am still trying to give up complete control!)
but it has not been as bad as I thought. Definitely eating more "junk" food,
but still eating the good stuff too. And they have not gone completely
overboard. We have less arguments which is nice.
Same thing with tv. I used to feel guilty if I let them have a "tv" day. Like
I was not a good parent to have to resort to using the tv. But I have started
watching with them and really seeing why they are enjoying what they are
enjoying. Today was a major tv day. We just got back from the weekend at my ILs.
Stayed up late, lots of attention from the grandparents. Lots of neat stuff (my
ILs took them to the Marine Museum in Va Beach, they had a blast). Pretty long
car ride. I actually understand why Jason only wanted to veg today. I actually
joined him for part of it. The other part of the day was spent playing with
my 2 yo. Jason would join us for a little while then go back to tv. And there
were a couple of times when he turned it off to concentrate on his bionicles
(legos). We will see how tomorrow goes, but I expect that we will probably
not overdose on tv again. Once again, reducing limits has helped me enjoy
the boys more...no arguments over turning it off, fun cuddling on the couch.
Fun enjoying the boys enjoying themselves.
>I do however find some of the responses (notI don't think that anyone is being purposefully harsh. But I agree that no
> only to me) on this group harsh, judgmental and aggressive.
> I do not understand this, since I would think people that so
> strongly believe in this style of parenting would be far more
> helpful to help other people in transition (like myself) to
> understand what unschooling is about. I imagine some people
> might be turned off by individual aggressive replies rather
> than the philosophy.
one is going to hold your hand here. I do not take anything anyone posts
personally (at least I haven't yet!) and honestly have learned a lot from
the blunt posts. I have not always agreed with them, but they have made me
look at things from a different perspective. I first joined this list when
there was a brouhaha (sp??) about what unschooling was and was not. A lot
of bickering back and forth about how people were being mean and too
judgmental. A splinter group broke off to start a "more gentle"
unschooling list. I joined for a little while, but soon unsubbed because
I was not getting anything from it. Not sure if it was because everyone
was being too nice or because I was looking for someone to challenge my
beliefs. The folks here are very good at debating ideas and calling you
on things, asking you to really think about why you do things. If you
can avoid taking things personally you can gain some interesting insights.
At least I know that I have.
>This has been the hardest thing for me. It seems like almost everything
> I can relate to Stephanie Elm's posts and a few others,
> because I think they might not be that far ahead of me in
> this process and they have an understanding for where I am
> coming from. I am too regarded as way to relaxed by my
> friends, and here it is quite opposite. It certainly does
> challenge my belief system.
that I have thought about being a "good" parent is being challenged.
For me that has been a good thing...there are many things that I accepted
that I must do as a good parent that I have not been comfortable with (tv and
food restrictions etc). It is almost a relief for me. I find that I am enjoying
the boys more now that I do not feel the need to enforce restrictions. I feel
closer to them and I do not see any major backlashes yet. I still have issues
that I am working on (will have to post on them later) but for the most part,
the changes we have made lately have been for the good.
>Ohh! Ouch. Now who is being harsh! ;o) But I think that I understand
> As far as limits go, someone suggested that I might not trust
> my children. I don't believe that this is a matter about
> trust. I believe it is about understanding my role as parent.
> I have always felt that my role is to love them, guide them
> and protect them. Within the unschooling approach I
> understand that I have to love them and guide them, but don't
> protect them. I'm not quite at ease with that. If feel that I
> might not be fulfilling my responsibility if I don't protect
> the and to protect them means to sometimes keep them away.
where you are coming from. Protecting is equated with restrictions.
So if there are no restrictions, there is no protection. But I do
not feel that I am harming them by loosening up on restrictions. In
fact I hope that I am giving them a gift by helping them get to know
and trust themselves. I am not throwing up my arms and saying that
you are on your own. I am not turning the tv on and watching CSI
with my 5 yo. Or going out and buying only junk food to have around
the house. I would never do anything that I thought was damaging
to my boys. What I am hearing here is that people who have done
this (given more control to their kids) have had success. I love
reading about the older kids (PamS, Sandra and the others). The
relationship they have with their parents is really what is helping
convince me. I see teenagers who are comfortable talking with their
parents, who value their parents opinions, who take responsibility,
and make good judgment calls. After all the horror stories that I
have heard from friends and on tv about living with teenagers, this
says to me that these folks are on to something.
>Search unschooling.com for food limits...there are several posts that deal
> I think our limits are mostly in three areas - bedtimes,
> food, and TV. Bedtimes I can see the other side, food is
> mostly about not limitless sweets which is both a budget and
> health concern and can't really see us change that,
with exactly these issues. What convinced me is that the people who
post that they give control over food to their kids also tell how
their kids do make good choices, do find a balance (even though they may
binge when first given control). What I have found so far is that the
biggest difference so far is that I do not say no when they want a candy
bar at the store. So far the .50 candy bar has not broken the bank. Jason
did ask for a bag of smarties last week. I think he forgot it was there, but
did ask for it today. He and Kyle ate quite a few (but I fully expected them
to eat the whole bag and there is still 3/4 of it left). We are only 2 weeks
in, so we are still in adjustment phase. But honestly it has not changed my
purchasing too much.
> but TV isHere again I can only comment on our experience (doing the no tv
> still a sticky one for me. I hear what you all say about
> research and that is an interesting outlook - someone said
> that their five year old commented on a TV programme that
> they're just having noisy sex. My five year old don't know
> what sex is, and all honestly I don't want him to know about
> it just yet. Sure he is bound to ask more questions soon, but
> I'll wait patiently. I can see that it might be okay to watch
> the news with Dad, but I still don't think we'll be watching
> Nine-and-a-half weeks while he is in the room. Someone asked
> about TV usage in our house. It is very limited. I don't
> watch much at all and my husband watches some in the evening.
> The TV aren't on unless we watch.
limits for about 4 weeks now). No limits does not mean that we
are watching everything and anything with him around. I don't
suggest that we watch things that I do not think are appropriate
for him. If he expresses an interest in something that I am
really opposed to, I will have to see how I will handle it. But so
far he has not asked to view anything terrible. Today he did ask
to watch Civil War Journal (I tape these and watch them after
he goes to bed because they do have some battle re-enactments that
I thought might be too much for him.) I told him that there might
be some scary or sad parts (talked a bit about war). He decided that
it would be ok and he handled it fine. Plus we had some good discussions
from watching it. He has said that he did not want to watch things as well.
Jason loves the crocodile hunter so he wanted to see the movie when it
came out. We watched the promos for it together and *he* decided that it
was too violent and did not want to be scared.
So far Jason has only asked to watch shows on the history channel, a&e, tlc
and animal planet. He has seen sitcoms like friends or shows like ed but
has no desire to watch them. Now we have tivo, which lets us tape all the
shows we are interested in and watch them whenever we want. So he does not
really channel surf. We can also fast forward through commercials. Maybe
starting out taping the shows might make it easier to make the jump?
> My experience of parenting without limits have beenAhhh. But there is a huge difference. I am not making this decision because
> neglectful ones. Parents that don't set limits, because they
> could not be bother. And those children's behavior is not
> what I would like mine to be. Maybe that is too controlling
> too, who knows??
I can not be bothered. This is a *very* well thought out and researched
decision on my part. I am also not just turning them loose with a remote
and saying go at it with no guidance. I am also very available so they
do not need to turn to the tv for lack of attention. I often watch and enjoy
with them. It is a way of connecting, not just a way of getting them out
of my hair. I also provide my kids with ample opportunities for other activities.
So to compare my kids with parents who are neglecting their children is like
comparing apples and oranges. And I do not think that the outcomes will be the same.
>Yup. I worry too. But do we ever really know if we are making the right decisions
> I think my uneasiness with all this is that I might make the
> wrong choice for my children. I might choose to let them find
> their own limits and that might be the wrong choice for them.
> Because if we like it or not, we do make decisions for them.
> We do choose to unschool them and raise them in a particular
> way. Thinking about it, like anything else, one needs to
> truly believe in it, before you would be able to let go of
> all the limits. I am clearly not there, but willing to learn more.
for our kids? We do the best we can. All I know is that this makes sense to me.
In my gut. The more I read the more it feels right. I have learned when they
were little to follow my instinct and it has not led me wrong yet. Keep reading.
The important thing is that it sounds like you have an open mind. Let it sink in
for awhile. And if it continues to make sense (and it must make sense to you on
some level or you would not be willing to learn more!) you can make the jump
anytime.
I read a thread recently at unschooling.com that had lots of "aha" moments for
me. Of course it might not have the same effect for you, but you might want
to give it a shot:
http://www.unschooling.com/discus/messages/401/6535.html?FridaySeptember620020237am
> A hypothetical question comes to mind. What would you all doHypotheticals are hard to discuss. Having a 5 yo, it is hard for
> if your young teenager experiences with serious drugs?? I can
> not imagine giving them all the information and sit back and
> wait for them to make the right choice?? Off course it would
> be near impossible to coerce them into giving it up, but I do
> think I will try.
me to flash forward to his teenage years. :o) Too many variables
that I do not know. Maybe someone with older kids has some more
insight...but from what I have read, those folks with older kids
have not really run into this problem. I would guess that given
the opportunity to make decisions and have control over their
lives would give them less reasons to turn to drugs. They would
be more open to listening to their parents and drugs would not
have the forbidden fruit appeal. But this is all supposition since
it is all hypothetical.
> Thanks for discussing this with me, especially those of youAnytime...it has been helpful for me as well as I am still working
> that do it in patience and understanding.
out a lot of things in my mind as well.
Stephanie E.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 10:28 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
believe that until that part of a person is healed - the part that needs
the addiction for whatever reason - a person may go from addiction to
addiction or may have their addictions heaped one on top of each other no
matter how much "education about the dangers" is done.
judgment and quite frankly they were not always honest with me. In fact,
they subtly communicated with me that they did not want to know the awful
truths from me, though I think they might deny this (they definitely would
have denied it then, maybe not now, though). But, my mother wanted to
believe I was someone I was not and really did not want to see me for who I
was. When I was a kid faced with tough choices, I did not have my mom and
dad to turn to - ever - and I regret this now. I can see with my excellent
hindsight that I could have had a much easier time of it and maybe avoided
some hardships if I could have had the benefit of their expertise. It's
good for me to remember this, though, because I am reminded to be conscious
about accepting Liam for who he is, not who I want him to be. I'm a
pacifist, but Liam likes to play fighting games. He and I are different
people, but I accept him, and I learn from him because we are different. I
don't think my folks were ever able to go there.
~marji~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My point, as I said earlier, was that people who are going to do drugs areI don't know. There are all kinds of addictions, as you know, and I
> going to do them.
>
> ** You don't think that it's possible to change minds by educating them
> about the dangers? I know some won't care, but surely it would get thru
> to some others?
believe that until that part of a person is healed - the part that needs
the addiction for whatever reason - a person may go from addiction to
addiction or may have their addictions heaped one on top of each other no
matter how much "education about the dangers" is done.
> ** OK, question here for everyone. Did you talk to your parents whenMy parents were not at all accessible to me. They were filled with
> you had concerns about drugs, sex, drink, etc? What was it about them
> and/or the way they treated you that made you feel comfortable doing so
> or not doing so?
judgment and quite frankly they were not always honest with me. In fact,
they subtly communicated with me that they did not want to know the awful
truths from me, though I think they might deny this (they definitely would
have denied it then, maybe not now, though). But, my mother wanted to
believe I was someone I was not and really did not want to see me for who I
was. When I was a kid faced with tough choices, I did not have my mom and
dad to turn to - ever - and I regret this now. I can see with my excellent
hindsight that I could have had a much easier time of it and maybe avoided
some hardships if I could have had the benefit of their expertise. It's
good for me to remember this, though, because I am reminded to be conscious
about accepting Liam for who he is, not who I want him to be. I'm a
pacifist, but Liam likes to play fighting games. He and I are different
people, but I accept him, and I learn from him because we are different. I
don't think my folks were ever able to go there.
~marji~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
>Not necassairly. I spent my naughty youth smoking dope and was
> At 07:57 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
> >Aren't all drugs serious? Even if they are mild, they usually are
> >just a stepping stone to stronger, more addictive, drugs.
never interested in the stronger stuff.
We have more lenient laws for drug takers too.
I smoked the odd joint right up until moving to the US. I wouldn't
dare do it here because of the ridicuously long sentences handed
out.
Addictiveness tends to be a personality trait. Some people are like
that, and some ain't. In fact, I recall an interesting study that
pointed to a link between people who's mother's were given a
narcotic during labour and an addiction to drugs later on.
Thats my ramble
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Kelli Traaseth
Marji and Myranda,
Hiya! Don't you guys think that maybe people who are dealing with other issues and troubles in their lives are using drugs to help them feel better? And if you aren't feeling better about yourself with lets say caffeine or nicotine or even pot. You might go to the next level to relieve pain/unhappiness? I know my family has lots of 'issues' and I see lots of drug abuse and even when they don't use 'serious' drugs the less 'serious' drugs are always there.
Maybe its just part of coping. And some people are taught those coping skills. I'm happy to say that I havn't had to have my coffee in the a.m. now for a while and it feels great!!
Kelli
marji <marji@...> wrote:Hi, Myranda!!
At 07:57 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
times growing up and since then, too, but in my own experience and in
knowing many, many people who have used or still use drugs, I have rarely
(if ever) seen that "stepping stone" thing that the drug "experts" warned
us about. I think it's like almost everything else. People who are gonna
do drugs are gonna do drugs. People who are not gonna do drugs are not.
I certainly did my share of using drugs as a kid and when I got to be about
18 or 19 years old I realized that I liked myself better for the most part
when I was straight. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy smoking grass
or dropping acid, because I really did! It was fun. It eventually became
more fun for me being straight. Oddly enough, I never got in trouble for
taking drugs! (I sure did get in a heap of trouble over other stuff, like
skipping school, ferinstance.) I never ever liked alcohol (I could never
get it past my nose). Same with coffee. I did enjoy smoking cigarettes,
too, but I felt it was messing up my voice and that freaked me out enough
to quit "cold turkey" when I was 18.
I've known loads of folks who have smoked pot and drank and did all kinds
of drugs but either stopped or still smoke pot to this day and never went
on to stronger or addictive drugs. In my opinion, that's a lot propaganda
and hooey to scare people away from marijuana, which was William Randolph
Hearst's big issue. That's because, as I understand it, hemp used to be
the crop used to make paper. And, it was a sensible crop to use because it
was quickly and easily regrown and left forests standing whole. It was a
renewable resource. And, it was fairly cheap! But WRH was invested
heavily in deforestation to produce paper. So, if he was going to be
successful in that endeavor, hemp would have to be made illegal. He began
an enormous propaganda campaign to the end. Anyone who is interested can
google "hemp," "hearst," and "propaganda," and you'll find plenty more
information about it.
Anyway, when I have that "talk" with Liam about drugs, I'm going to tell
him the truth! That's what he deserves!
Love,
Marji
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Hiya! Don't you guys think that maybe people who are dealing with other issues and troubles in their lives are using drugs to help them feel better? And if you aren't feeling better about yourself with lets say caffeine or nicotine or even pot. You might go to the next level to relieve pain/unhappiness? I know my family has lots of 'issues' and I see lots of drug abuse and even when they don't use 'serious' drugs the less 'serious' drugs are always there.
Maybe its just part of coping. And some people are taught those coping skills. I'm happy to say that I havn't had to have my coffee in the a.m. now for a while and it feels great!!
Kelli
marji <marji@...> wrote:Hi, Myranda!!
At 07:57 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
>Aren't all drugs serious? Even if they are mild, they usually are just aI can't say that I agree with that! Although, I know I heard it lots of
>stepping stone to stronger, more addictive, drugs.
times growing up and since then, too, but in my own experience and in
knowing many, many people who have used or still use drugs, I have rarely
(if ever) seen that "stepping stone" thing that the drug "experts" warned
us about. I think it's like almost everything else. People who are gonna
do drugs are gonna do drugs. People who are not gonna do drugs are not.
I certainly did my share of using drugs as a kid and when I got to be about
18 or 19 years old I realized that I liked myself better for the most part
when I was straight. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy smoking grass
or dropping acid, because I really did! It was fun. It eventually became
more fun for me being straight. Oddly enough, I never got in trouble for
taking drugs! (I sure did get in a heap of trouble over other stuff, like
skipping school, ferinstance.) I never ever liked alcohol (I could never
get it past my nose). Same with coffee. I did enjoy smoking cigarettes,
too, but I felt it was messing up my voice and that freaked me out enough
to quit "cold turkey" when I was 18.
I've known loads of folks who have smoked pot and drank and did all kinds
of drugs but either stopped or still smoke pot to this day and never went
on to stronger or addictive drugs. In my opinion, that's a lot propaganda
and hooey to scare people away from marijuana, which was William Randolph
Hearst's big issue. That's because, as I understand it, hemp used to be
the crop used to make paper. And, it was a sensible crop to use because it
was quickly and easily regrown and left forests standing whole. It was a
renewable resource. And, it was fairly cheap! But WRH was invested
heavily in deforestation to produce paper. So, if he was going to be
successful in that endeavor, hemp would have to be made illegal. He began
an enormous propaganda campaign to the end. Anyone who is interested can
google "hemp," "hearst," and "propaganda," and you'll find plenty more
information about it.
Anyway, when I have that "talk" with Liam about drugs, I'm going to tell
him the truth! That's what he deserves!
Love,
Marji
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Tia Leschke
> I can't say that I agree with that! Although, I know I heard it lots ofOne of the problems with them being illegal is that you can't get accurate
> times growing up and since then, too, but in my own experience and in
> knowing many, many people who have used or still use drugs, I have rarely
> (if ever) seen that "stepping stone" thing that the drug "experts" warned
> us about. I think it's like almost everything else. People who are gonna
> do drugs are gonna do drugs. People who are not gonna do drugs are not.
statistics about who uses and how many of them go on to the harder drugs. I
certainly have known a lot of people who smoked pot in my lifetime and only
a tiny number of them even tried harder drugs. Hallucinogens yes, but
that's all.
Almost everybody who uses heroin once ate mashed potatoes, but that doesn't
mean that mashed potato eating leads to heroin use. One of the reasons that
people do go on to harder drugs is that the same people often sell them.
That wouldn't be the case if they were buying it at the local liquor store,
or whatever.
>about
> I certainly did my share of using drugs as a kid and when I got to be
> 18 or 19 years old I realized that I liked myself better for the most partHey, my mother quit smoking cold turkey about a year and a half ago - at the
> when I was straight. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy smoking grass
> or dropping acid, because I really did! It was fun. It eventually became
> more fun for me being straight. Oddly enough, I never got in trouble for
> taking drugs! (I sure did get in a heap of trouble over other stuff, like
> skipping school, ferinstance.) I never ever liked alcohol (I could never
> get it past my nose). Same with coffee. I did enjoy smoking cigarettes,
> too, but I felt it was messing up my voice and that freaked me out enough
> to quit "cold turkey" when I was 18.
age of 85! She didn't quit because she was worried about her health. She
just decided she didn't want to do that anymore.
>it
> I've known loads of folks who have smoked pot and drank and did all kinds
> of drugs but either stopped or still smoke pot to this day and never went
> on to stronger or addictive drugs. In my opinion, that's a lot propaganda
> and hooey to scare people away from marijuana, which was William Randolph
> Hearst's big issue. That's because, as I understand it, hemp used to be
> the crop used to make paper. And, it was a sensible crop to use because
> was quickly and easily regrown and left forests standing whole. It was aNot just Hearst. Think alcohol and tobacco companies. And it was easy to
> renewable resource. And, it was fairly cheap! But WRH was invested
> heavily in deforestation to produce paper. So, if he was going to be
> successful in that endeavor, hemp would have to be made illegal. He began
> an enormous propaganda campaign to the end. Anyone who is interested can
> google "hemp," "hearst," and "propaganda," and you'll find plenty more
> information about it.
pull off at that time because the vast majority of pot smokers were black or
Chicano people. Pretty marginalized, especially at that time. I'd like to
have seen them try to make it illegal in the late 60s or early 70s or now,
for that matter. In Canada, more than half the population believes it
should be legal.
>Same here. I read recently that graduates of the DARE program are more
> Anyway, when I have that "talk" with Liam about drugs, I'm going to tell
> him the truth! That's what he deserves!
likely to use pot than non-grads. Their program is massive propaganda. If
kids realize they've been lied to about one drug, how likely is it that
they'll believe what they've been told about the others? And in many places
the kids are encouraged to rat on their parents.
Tia
Myranda
Hi Kelli!
Yes, I think that is the case for a lot of people. Over half of my family uses alchohol to "escape" from their problems - ironically, many of the problems are financial and could partially be solved by not spending so much money on drinking! My DH used smoking to not feel so stressed for awhile, until he figured out that talking things out worked wonders to reduce the burden of stress. Isn't that called self-medicating?
Myranda
Marji and Myranda,
Hiya! Don't you guys think that maybe people who are dealing with other issues and troubles in their lives are using drugs to help them feel better? And if you aren't feeling better about yourself with lets say caffeine or nicotine or even pot. You might go to the next level to relieve pain/unhappiness? I know my family has lots of 'issues' and I see lots of drug abuse and even when they don't use 'serious' drugs the less 'serious' drugs are always there.
Maybe its just part of coping. And some people are taught those coping skills. I'm happy to say that I havn't had to have my coffee in the a.m. now for a while and it feels great!!
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, I think that is the case for a lot of people. Over half of my family uses alchohol to "escape" from their problems - ironically, many of the problems are financial and could partially be solved by not spending so much money on drinking! My DH used smoking to not feel so stressed for awhile, until he figured out that talking things out worked wonders to reduce the burden of stress. Isn't that called self-medicating?
Myranda
Marji and Myranda,
Hiya! Don't you guys think that maybe people who are dealing with other issues and troubles in their lives are using drugs to help them feel better? And if you aren't feeling better about yourself with lets say caffeine or nicotine or even pot. You might go to the next level to relieve pain/unhappiness? I know my family has lots of 'issues' and I see lots of drug abuse and even when they don't use 'serious' drugs the less 'serious' drugs are always there.
Maybe its just part of coping. And some people are taught those coping skills. I'm happy to say that I havn't had to have my coffee in the a.m. now for a while and it feels great!!
Kelli
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shyrley
On 16 Oct 02, at 7:57, Myranda wrote:
There's a bit of a puritan attitude towards drugs (illegal ones) in the
US I noticed.
Most are just substances made out of plants just like alcohol is. I
fail to see the difference between the two and I also fail to see why,
in the land of the free, people shouldn't be able to indulge ina few
herbs if they want too.
The Govt could then tax them and make money like they do with
cigarettes and alcohol (2 legal drugs)
Whats the difference?
I realy must look up the illegal drugs death toll too and compare it
to guns (40,000 a year),cars (200,000a year) and Doctors and legal
drugs (300,000 a year). Might get some perspective.
Shyrley
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
> Aren't all drugs serious? Even if they are mild, they usually are justTylenol? Xanax?
> a stepping stone to stronger, more addictive, drugs. Myranda
>
> ==
> What do you mean by "serious" drugs?
>
> Todd
> ------
There's a bit of a puritan attitude towards drugs (illegal ones) in the
US I noticed.
Most are just substances made out of plants just like alcohol is. I
fail to see the difference between the two and I also fail to see why,
in the land of the free, people shouldn't be able to indulge ina few
herbs if they want too.
The Govt could then tax them and make money like they do with
cigarettes and alcohol (2 legal drugs)
Whats the difference?
I realy must look up the illegal drugs death toll too and compare it
to guns (40,000 a year),cars (200,000a year) and Doctors and legal
drugs (300,000 a year). Might get some perspective.
Shyrley
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Myranda
Now, that's interesting! I always thought, with drugs and medication, that it was the drug causing the addiction.
From: Shyrley
<snip> Addictiveness tends to be a personality trait. Some people are like
that, and some ain't. <snip>
Shyrley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Shyrley
<snip> Addictiveness tends to be a personality trait. Some people are like
that, and some ain't. <snip>
Shyrley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Yes, there are a lot of other herbs that can be misused as drugs around, often in your front yard, but most people don't know or aren't interested. I imagine if some of those became widely used, they'd become illegal here too.
Myranda
From: Shyrley
Tylenol? Xanax?
There's a bit of a puritan attitude towards drugs (illegal ones) in the
US I noticed.
Most are just substances made out of plants just like alcohol is. I
fail to see the difference between the two and I also fail to see why,
in the land of the free, people shouldn't be able to indulge ina few
herbs if they want too.
The Govt could then tax them and make money like they do with
cigarettes and alcohol (2 legal drugs)
Whats the difference?
I realy must look up the illegal drugs death toll too and compare it
to guns (40,000 a year),cars (200,000a year) and Doctors and legal
drugs (300,000 a year). Might get some perspective.
Shyrley
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Shyrley
Tylenol? Xanax?
There's a bit of a puritan attitude towards drugs (illegal ones) in the
US I noticed.
Most are just substances made out of plants just like alcohol is. I
fail to see the difference between the two and I also fail to see why,
in the land of the free, people shouldn't be able to indulge ina few
herbs if they want too.
The Govt could then tax them and make money like they do with
cigarettes and alcohol (2 legal drugs)
Whats the difference?
I realy must look up the illegal drugs death toll too and compare it
to guns (40,000 a year),cars (200,000a year) and Doctors and legal
drugs (300,000 a year). Might get some perspective.
Shyrley
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Shyrley
On 16 Oct 02, at 11:55, Myranda wrote:
drug addiction could be learned behaviour rather thana property of
the drug.
If you want I could describe it in detail.
I just *knew* my neuroscience degree would come in handy *one*
day.
It just goes to show that drug adiction is way more complicated
than we like to think.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
> Now, that's interesting! I always thought, with drugs and medication,There is also an experiment carried out on rats that shows that
> that it was the drug causing the addiction.
drug addiction could be learned behaviour rather thana property of
the drug.
If you want I could describe it in detail.
I just *knew* my neuroscience degree would come in handy *one*
day.
It just goes to show that drug adiction is way more complicated
than we like to think.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Myranda
I'd love to hear more about it! :-)
Myranda
From: Shyrley
There is also an experiment carried out on rats that shows that
drug addiction could be learned behaviour rather thana property of
the drug.
If you want I could describe it in detail.
I just *knew* my neuroscience degree would come in handy *one*
day.
It just goes to show that drug adiction is way more complicated
than we like to think.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: Shyrley
There is also an experiment carried out on rats that shows that
drug addiction could be learned behaviour rather thana property of
the drug.
If you want I could describe it in detail.
I just *knew* my neuroscience degree would come in handy *one*
day.
It just goes to show that drug adiction is way more complicated
than we like to think.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Kelli Traaseth
Marji, I guess I should have read your post and just said, ditto! <g>
Totally relating to what you said.
Kelli
marji <marji@...> wrote:At 10:28 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
believe that until that part of a person is healed - the part that needs
the addiction for whatever reason - a person may go from addiction to
addiction or may have their addictions heaped one on top of each other no
matter how much "education about the dangers" is done.
judgment and quite frankly they were not always honest with me. In fact,
they subtly communicated with me that they did not want to know the awful
truths from me, though I think they might deny this (they definitely would
have denied it then, maybe not now, though). But, my mother wanted to
believe I was someone I was not and really did not want to see me for who I
was. When I was a kid faced with tough choices, I did not have my mom and
dad to turn to - ever - and I regret this now. I can see with my excellent
hindsight that I could have had a much easier time of it and maybe avoided
some hardships if I could have had the benefit of their expertise. It's
good for me to remember this, though, because I am reminded to be conscious
about accepting Liam for who he is, not who I want him to be. I'm a
pacifist, but Liam likes to play fighting games. He and I are different
people, but I accept him, and I learn from him because we are different. I
don't think my folks were ever able to go there.
~marji~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Totally relating to what you said.
Kelli
marji <marji@...> wrote:At 10:28 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
> My point, as I said earlier, was that people who are going to do drugs areI don't know. There are all kinds of addictions, as you know, and I
> going to do them.
>
> ** You don't think that it's possible to change minds by educating them
> about the dangers? I know some won't care, but surely it would get thru
> to some others?
believe that until that part of a person is healed - the part that needs
the addiction for whatever reason - a person may go from addiction to
addiction or may have their addictions heaped one on top of each other no
matter how much "education about the dangers" is done.
> ** OK, question here for everyone. Did you talk to your parents whenMy parents were not at all accessible to me. They were filled with
> you had concerns about drugs, sex, drink, etc? What was it about them
> and/or the way they treated you that made you feel comfortable doing so
> or not doing so?
judgment and quite frankly they were not always honest with me. In fact,
they subtly communicated with me that they did not want to know the awful
truths from me, though I think they might deny this (they definitely would
have denied it then, maybe not now, though). But, my mother wanted to
believe I was someone I was not and really did not want to see me for who I
was. When I was a kid faced with tough choices, I did not have my mom and
dad to turn to - ever - and I regret this now. I can see with my excellent
hindsight that I could have had a much easier time of it and maybe avoided
some hardships if I could have had the benefit of their expertise. It's
good for me to remember this, though, because I am reminded to be conscious
about accepting Liam for who he is, not who I want him to be. I'm a
pacifist, but Liam likes to play fighting games. He and I are different
people, but I accept him, and I learn from him because we are different. I
don't think my folks were ever able to go there.
~marji~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 11:55 10/16/02 -0400, Myranda wrote:
substance or the behavior but the personality trait that causes the
addiction. That's why it's so easy for some folks to kick while others
have a real hard time and just replace one addiction with another.
~marji~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Now, that's interesting! I always thought, with drugs and medication, thatThat's why people can have multiple addictions. It's not necessarily the
>it was the drug causing the addiction.
substance or the behavior but the personality trait that causes the
addiction. That's why it's so easy for some folks to kick while others
have a real hard time and just replace one addiction with another.
~marji~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
Marji wrote:
sex, drugs, and a health impairing lifestyle are the ones who are given real
choices early in life -- way before the teen years. Teen rebellion is an
understandable dynamic when one looks at how excessive control without the
tempering of individual respect backfires. And yes, I do think the wrong
"friends" can lead a young inexperienced teen down a path he/she might not
have found on his own, but if he/she wasn't already used to having someone
"lead" them around they wouldn't be so vulnerable. The real breeding ground
for making poor choices in the teen years is having someone else making all
one's real decisions for one up to that point. There is a reason the
stereotype of the minister's son being the wildest teen in town holds so true
to form or why so many girls find out about sex for the first time at
overnight church camp: let off the iron restraints and they don't have any
experience in making their own decisions.
Peggy
> My point, as I said earlier, was that people who are going to do drugs areIME the teens who have a greater resilience around temptations like alcohol,
> going to do them. I believe that people who have a strong sense of self
> will be able to stop doing drugs if that's what they want to do. It
> appears to me that addictions occur in people who have a serious need for
> some kind of escape (all kinds of addictions, drugs and alcohol being only
> two of the many). These are the folks who can fall prey to drug
> pushers. And, I believe they would fall prey whether they were already
> smoking pot or had never smoked a thing in their lives.
sex, drugs, and a health impairing lifestyle are the ones who are given real
choices early in life -- way before the teen years. Teen rebellion is an
understandable dynamic when one looks at how excessive control without the
tempering of individual respect backfires. And yes, I do think the wrong
"friends" can lead a young inexperienced teen down a path he/she might not
have found on his own, but if he/she wasn't already used to having someone
"lead" them around they wouldn't be so vulnerable. The real breeding ground
for making poor choices in the teen years is having someone else making all
one's real decisions for one up to that point. There is a reason the
stereotype of the minister's son being the wildest teen in town holds so true
to form or why so many girls find out about sex for the first time at
overnight church camp: let off the iron restraints and they don't have any
experience in making their own decisions.
Peggy
marji
At 12:08 10/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
~marji~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Yes, there are a lot of other herbs that can be misused as drugs around,Especially if it were a threat to some patented pharmaceutical! Money talks!
>often in your front yard, but most people don't know or aren't interested.
>I imagine if some of those became widely used, they'd become illegal here too.
> There's a bit of a puritan attitude towards drugs (illegal ones) in theGood observation!
> US I noticed.
> Most are just substances made out of plants just like alcohol is. IHmmmm.... I wonder.
> fail to see the difference between the two and I also fail to see why,
> in the land of the free, people shouldn't be able to indulge ina few
> herbs if they want too.
> The Govt could then tax them and make money like they do withI like your perspective Shyrley!
> cigarettes and alcohol (2 legal drugs)
> Whats the difference?
> I realy must look up the illegal drugs death toll too and compare it
> to guns (40,000 a year),cars (200,000a year) and Doctors and legal
> drugs (300,000 a year). Might get some perspective.
~marji~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
I totally agree Shyrley, we live in a great land of hypocracy! If I ever have a painful type of cancer or other illness I sure hope I can find a good supplier of weed!
In certain ways our country is so behind on somethings and then on other things we are ahead. We are in the land of free, but are we?
Kelli
Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...> wrote:On 16 Oct 02, at 7:57, Myranda wrote:
There's a bit of a puritan attitude towards drugs (illegal ones) in the
US I noticed.
Most are just substances made out of plants just like alcohol is. I
fail to see the difference between the two and I also fail to see why,
in the land of the free, people shouldn't be able to indulge ina few
herbs if they want too.
The Govt could then tax them and make money like they do with
cigarettes and alcohol (2 legal drugs)
Whats the difference?
I realy must look up the illegal drugs death toll too and compare it
to guns (40,000 a year),cars (200,000a year) and Doctors and legal
drugs (300,000 a year). Might get some perspective.
Shyrley
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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In certain ways our country is so behind on somethings and then on other things we are ahead. We are in the land of free, but are we?
Kelli
Shyrley <shyrley.williams@...> wrote:On 16 Oct 02, at 7:57, Myranda wrote:
> Aren't all drugs serious? Even if they are mild, they usually are justTylenol? Xanax?
> a stepping stone to stronger, more addictive, drugs. Myranda
>
> ==
> What do you mean by "serious" drugs?
>
> Todd
> ------
There's a bit of a puritan attitude towards drugs (illegal ones) in the
US I noticed.
Most are just substances made out of plants just like alcohol is. I
fail to see the difference between the two and I also fail to see why,
in the land of the free, people shouldn't be able to indulge ina few
herbs if they want too.
The Govt could then tax them and make money like they do with
cigarettes and alcohol (2 legal drugs)
Whats the difference?
I realy must look up the illegal drugs death toll too and compare it
to guns (40,000 a year),cars (200,000a year) and Doctors and legal
drugs (300,000 a year). Might get some perspective.
Shyrley
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Kelli Traaseth
Me too! I'm a psychiatrist in my little world. <g>
Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:I'd love to hear more about it! :-)
Myranda
From: Shyrley
There is also an experiment carried out on rats that shows that
drug addiction could be learned behaviour rather thana property of
the drug.
If you want I could describe it in detail.
I just *knew* my neuroscience degree would come in handy *one*
day.
It just goes to show that drug adiction is way more complicated
than we like to think.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
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Kelli
Myranda <myrandab@...> wrote:I'd love to hear more about it! :-)
Myranda
From: Shyrley
There is also an experiment carried out on rats that shows that
drug addiction could be learned behaviour rather thana property of
the drug.
If you want I could describe it in detail.
I just *knew* my neuroscience degree would come in handy *one*
day.
It just goes to show that drug adiction is way more complicated
than we like to think.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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Mary Bianco
>From: "Myranda" <myrandab@...>Guess what Myranda??? Are you sitting down?? I agree with you!!! No buts or
>OK, I have to say that I strongly disagree with marijuana being made
>illegal! I don't think it should ever have been classified as a drug at
>all. It is one thing that has numerous uses, is not harmful when smoked in
>moderation, and is very healing for some things, including pain relief.
>But - lol another but - although I never did any kind of drugs myself, my
>teenage years were spent being friends with, having boyfriends, and even
>living with drug sellers in south Georgia. I know for a fact that they will
>actively recruit users by getting young people started with the "mild"
>drugs (pot being a favorite), and then a few weeks to a month later, saying
>they have something a little better, and getting them onto that. And so on
>and so on til you're looking at a kid with a serious crack or heroin
>addiction, and doing mushrooms or some other hallucinogenic on top of that.
>It's a money-maker to them. The deeper they can get a kid in, the more
>seriously addictive drugs they can get them on, the more money they can
>make. My boyfriend's step-father told me one day that one kid will on
>average make him over $500 a month, easily. Take 10-15 kids buying from him
>at any given time, and you've got a sizable, steady income that they're
>willing to fight tooth and nail to hang on to.>>
anything, at least so far. <BG>
I agree with the first part. I think legalizing and using hemp for a cash
crop is a great idea. There are a lot of uses for it and it's friendly to
the earth. (and whoever smokes it!)
I also agree with the second part too. Drugs of any kind are a big money
maker and the more potent the drug gets, the more money to be made off of
it. I think it's easier to try and get a kid already smoking weed to try
something else becuse they know that kid is already open to the idea of
trying something new or "bad" for you. And yet again, I agree with the
thought someone else had saying that either you are the kind of person who
will do or not. I know plenty of people who only tried pot and didn't like
it, still smoke it and nothing else and those who have "gone on to other
things." I think the ones who go on to other things would have done so
whether someone was there to encourage them or not. Maybe not so soon, but
eventually anyway.
It's just like being unfaithful. My mom always said if you accuse someone of
it long enough, they will go out and do it. I think you are either the kind
of person who will or won't. Accusations aren't necessary. You either get to
apoint where you try to get away with it to have you cake and eat it too or
just don't care anymore. I just don't see where blaming "makes" someone go
out and do it.
Mary B
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