Don and Crys Meaker

Salvete,

I remember several news stories from years past ... One where a 9
y/o and an 11 y/o pushed a 7 y/o out of a 5th story window
because he wouldn't steal for them.

The story of a 10 y/o who murdered for his gang (so he wouldn't be
charged as an adult) and was himself murdered by a 9 y/o as
retribution.

I know for a fact that prisons no longer rehabilitate. The prisons are
soft and cushy and prisoners are given all their rights. The victims,
apparently have no rights, or their rights take second seat to the
rights of the poor prisoner.

You can overhaul the system and look at each case individually.
Bring in shrinks by the busload. Look at the perps and ask
yourself "Is this 9 y/o going to kill again?". Maybe put him in
therapy. Maybe medication. Spend millions trying to make him a
productive member of society. IMHO it won't work. Not once he
sees that prison life is so much better than home life. Cable TV,
health clubs, free education, the works.

Todays prison system is a shame. If you can't do the time, don't
do the time. Heck, with prisons the way they are today the time
isn't half bad, sometimes better that life on the outside.

2 cents,
Pax,
Crys

Joel Hawthorne

With all due respect I think you are very confused on the issue. The
history of punishment is clear. It is an abysmal failure. Most people in
prison have already had massive punishment in their lives. The vast
majority of violent offenders had corporal punishment has a major feature of
their growing up. Violence begets violence. I suggest the article "The
Fear of Being Permissive" archived at Naturalchild.com.

Of course prisons don't rehabilitate. They have rarely ever been intended
to rehabilitate. There is lip service paid to the concept but vengeance and
punishment rule supreme. They continue to be as ineffective as they have
always been. The only punishments that ever have worked are those which
stem from the persons connection with a community.

The real culprit is the mystification about cause and effect. Children
behave how they are treated. Barring massive neurological damage this is the
explanation for most human behaviour. People continue to want to deny this
but when you dig deep you will find the roots of behaviour in how people are
treated. Alice Miller has extensively written and explored this concept and
I see clearly the connection in my work as a nurse on an on-going basis.

People's rage and powerlessness in the face of what they see clouds their
thinking. People continue to blame victims. What kind of society is it
that can say their prisons are better than the lives people have outside
prison. You of course are absolutely right.... some people's lives are
better in prison than outside. What does this mean. It means that the
society has failed to create a community which includes large numbers of
people.

The real questions continue to be around issues of power and distribution of
wealth. The extreme rich continue to take a larger and larger percentage of
all income. The distribution of wealth is a fundamental factor in this
discussion. Prisons are part of an ideological machine along with media,
medicine, schools and church which enforce a world vision which destroys the
lives of millions and then lies about it and says we live in the best of all
possible worlds.

Unschooling is one of the holes in the system. It represents a hope for
change. When people are deschooled, deeducated, they have a chance of
seeing what is before them through lenses which are not so clouded with the
dominant vision of life. It empowers and frees.



Don and Crys Meaker wrote:

> From: "Don and Crys Meaker" <famromo@...>
>
> Salvete,
>
> I remember several news stories from years past ... One where a 9
> y/o and an 11 y/o pushed a 7 y/o out of a 5th story window
> because he wouldn't steal for them.
>
> The story of a 10 y/o who murdered for his gang (so he wouldn't be
> charged as an adult) and was himself murdered by a 9 y/o as
> retribution.
>
> I know for a fact that prisons no longer rehabilitate. The prisons are
> soft and cushy and prisoners are given all their rights. The victims,
> apparently have no rights, or their rights take second seat to the
> rights of the poor prisoner.
>
> You can overhaul the system and look at each case individually.
> Bring in shrinks by the busload. Look at the perps and ask
> yourself "Is this 9 y/o going to kill again?". Maybe put him in
> therapy. Maybe medication. Spend millions trying to make him a
> productive member of society. IMHO it won't work. Not once he
> sees that prison life is so much better than home life. Cable TV,
> health clubs, free education, the works.
>
> Todays prison system is a shame. If you can't do the time, don't
> do the time. Heck, with prisons the way they are today the time
> isn't half bad, sometimes better that life on the outside.
>
> 2 cents,
> Pax,
> Crys
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Lynda

If prisons and punishment are not a deterent, explain Singapore. Explain
various North and South American native communities that had a near zero
crime rate because "crime" was not tolerated, period! You paid, one way or
another, period. No rehab, no plea bargains, no excuses. AND, violence,
if that is what you wish to call punishment did not beget violence.

And, as I said before, most of the stories (and that is exactly what they
are) and excuses are made of whole cloth about abuse. And, I beg to
differ, corporal punishment has no correlation between what one becomes in
later life. 95% of all kids raised up until the last part of this century
had coporal punishment as a "major feature" in their growing up, so
therefore, you could use that to say George Washington became a president
because of this "major feature" or Columbus discovered the new world
because of, or whatever way you want to skew the data. Corporal punishment
is an excuse and no better a one than Twinkies!

One of the "nicest" clients I ever had was a contract killer. Came from a
lovely home, loved his parents and they loved him, he loved his siblings
and they loved him. He got good grades in school, got a degree in college.
Was good looking and had no problems with women. Why did he kill??? It
was easy and he was good at it and he only had to work a couple of days a
year! Did he know it was wrong, you bet. Did he care, NO! Is he the
exception, absolutely not!!!

Lynda

----------

> From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
> With all due respect I think you are very confused on the issue. The
> history of punishment is clear. It is an abysmal failure. Most people
in
> prison have already had massive punishment in their lives. The vast
> majority of violent offenders had corporal punishment has a major feature
of
> their growing up. Violence begets violence. I suggest the article "The
> Fear of Being Permissive" archived at Naturalchild.com.
>
> Of course prisons don't rehabilitate. They have rarely ever been
intended
> to rehabilitate. There is lip service paid to the concept but vengeance
and
> punishment rule supreme. They continue to be as ineffective as they have
> always been. The only punishments that ever have worked are those which
> stem from the persons connection with a community.
>
> The real culprit is the mystification about cause and effect. Children
> behave how they are treated. Barring massive neurological damage this is
the
> explanation for most human behaviour. People continue to want to deny
this
> but when you dig deep you will find the roots of behaviour in how people
are
> treated. Alice Miller has extensively written and explored this concept
and
> I see clearly the connection in my work as a nurse on an on-going basis.
>
> People's rage and powerlessness in the face of what they see clouds their
> thinking. People continue to blame victims. What kind of society is it
> that can say their prisons are better than the lives people have outside
> prison. You of course are absolutely right.... some people's lives are
> better in prison than outside. What does this mean. It means that the
> society has failed to create a community which includes large numbers of
> people.
>
> The real questions continue to be around issues of power and distribution
of
> wealth. The extreme rich continue to take a larger and larger percentage
of
> all income. The distribution of wealth is a fundamental factor in this
> discussion. Prisons are part of an ideological machine along with media,
> medicine, schools and church which enforce a world vision which destroys
the
> lives of millions and then lies about it and says we live in the best of
all
> possible worlds.
>
> Unschooling is one of the holes in the system. It represents a hope for
> change. When people are deschooled, deeducated, they have a chance of
> seeing what is before them through lenses which are not so clouded with
the
> dominant vision of life. It empowers and frees.
>
>
>
> Don and Crys Meaker wrote:
>
> > From: "Don and Crys Meaker" <famromo@...>
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I remember several news stories from years past ... One where a 9
> > y/o and an 11 y/o pushed a 7 y/o out of a 5th story window
> > because he wouldn't steal for them.
> >
> > The story of a 10 y/o who murdered for his gang (so he wouldn't be
> > charged as an adult) and was himself murdered by a 9 y/o as
> > retribution.
> >
> > I know for a fact that prisons no longer rehabilitate. The prisons are
> > soft and cushy and prisoners are given all their rights. The victims,
> > apparently have no rights, or their rights take second seat to the
> > rights of the poor prisoner.
> >
> > You can overhaul the system and look at each case individually.
> > Bring in shrinks by the busload. Look at the perps and ask
> > yourself "Is this 9 y/o going to kill again?". Maybe put him in
> > therapy. Maybe medication. Spend millions trying to make him a
> > productive member of society. IMHO it won't work. Not once he
> > sees that prison life is so much better than home life. Cable TV,
> > health clubs, free education, the works.
> >
> > Todays prison system is a shame. If you can't do the time, don't
> > do the time. Heck, with prisons the way they are today the time
> > isn't half bad, sometimes better that life on the outside.
> >
> > 2 cents,
> > Pax,
> > Crys
> >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> --
> best wishes
> Joel
>
> For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
> http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
>
> All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
> Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Joel Hawthorne

In a small, (both geographically and culturally homogenous society it is
possible to have draconian responses to "criminal" activity. I am sure that
the social stigma associated with offending behaviour is as much of a
significant deterrent than the violent nature of the punishment. In addition
you need to look at what you don't have in such societies such little items as
freedom, self-determination, individual liberty, economic equity and any
non-conformity. Order at any cost.

In some communities wherein you have a communal distribution of resources and a
kinship network there was little crime not because there was not tolerance for
it but because the causative factors of aberrant, antisocial behaviour were not
there. Banishment from those communities was the ultimate sanction. Being cut
off from the loving network of the "people" provided any deterrent that was
needed. People in those communities had complete investment in the values of
those communities.

In addition there have been very orderly societies with low "crime" rates which
have pursued hideous, violent, war filled courses of action against their
neighbors.

As for the "whole cloth" of allegations of abuse. There is outside
corroboration of many instances of abuse. One doesn't have to just take the
word of someone making the allegation.

As for corporal punishment, what can one say? Human history is a tapestry of
violence, inequity, atrocity, exploitation, mixed in with nobility and
accomplishment. Some of those accomplishments ultimately do not seem like
positive developments in retrospect. The refusal and reluctance of people to
look and think critically at the behaviour of their own parents has more to do
with people's views on this subject than anything else.

When examining the behaviour of normal, good people one needs to look at the
long litany of massively criminal behaviour of whole groups of people. The
Nazis experience could not be that easily discounted and it is really only the
most glaring and well publicized example of mass horror by "good normal"
people. The inhumanity of people towards other people is a salient feature of
human history.

Trotting out the aberrant psychopath as an example is always tantalizing. Of
course there could be the debate as to just how normal this lovely home really
was. "lovely" homes, and "love" from parents are really topics worthy of very
careful examination. Normal values leave much to be desired. "Loving" normal
parents regularly abuse their children out of ignorance of developmental
"norms". Normal people hit their children and call it love. To be angry and
punish a toddler for trying to explore the world, following an absolute
developmental imperative hard wired into the brain is a twisted abuse but
happens regularly. This is from parents who do love their children and have the
very best of intentions.

The contract killer's normal home life needs to be viewed by people who are
able to see the corruption of many normal practices. It is so facile to
explain away horrifying behaviour by simple "volition". A contract killer does
not kill simply because "it was easy and he was good at it and only had to work
a couple of days a year." He lacked a conscience. How did that happen? Do
you care how that happened? Is it preventable? It is something engendered by
the conditions of his life? Is it a defective neurological apparatus? The
questions are there. Your imo simplistic explanation doesn't address them.

It would be tidy and much less anxiety producing if human behaviour were just a
simple question of volition. It isn't. Reluctance to look at the intricate,
paradox filled, frightening reality doesn't make it go away.

There is a large body of research on prison populations which leads clearly, in
an epidemiological fashion to the conclusion that violence in childhood is
common denominator in that population. Violence greater than the norm. Not
all prisoners. Just as people subjected to violence in childhood do not all
offend. There is a direct correlation between the nature of a person's family
and that persons behaviour. It is predictive on a large scale. There are
trends which can be seen.

As for excuses. None of the horror in any individual's life is an excuse for
misbehaviour and offending against others. It may provide explanations for a
person's propensity to behave in a given way, it may provide an obstacle to be
overcome but it is never an excuse. People choose to do what they do and must
be held accountable. That accountability must be in the context of community if
it is to be meaningful. Punishment does not suffice. The punishing aspects of
accountability must be secondary and coincidental if you want the person in
question to be truly accountable.

I think we disagree immensely.

I think the discussion is worthwhile. I think you are mistaken as you must
think I am. I appreciate your engaging in the discussion nonetheless.

Lynda wrote:

> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>
> If prisons and punishment are not a deterent, explain Singapore. Explain
> various North and South American native communities that had a near zero
> crime rate because "crime" was not tolerated, period! You paid, one way or
> another, period. No rehab, no plea bargains, no excuses. AND, violence,
> if that is what you wish to call punishment did not beget violence.
>
> And, as I said before, most of the stories (and that is exactly what they
> are) and excuses are made of whole cloth about abuse. And, I beg to
> differ, corporal punishment has no correlation between what one becomes in
> later life. 95% of all kids raised up until the last part of this century
> had coporal punishment as a "major feature" in their growing up, so
> therefore, you could use that to say George Washington became a president
> because of this "major feature" or Columbus discovered the new world
> because of, or whatever way you want to skew the data. Corporal punishment
> is an excuse and no better a one than Twinkies!
>
> One of the "nicest" clients I ever had was a contract killer. Came from a
> lovely home, loved his parents and they loved him, he loved his siblings
> and they loved him. He got good grades in school, got a degree in college.
> Was good looking and had no problems with women. Why did he kill??? It
> was easy and he was good at it and he only had to work a couple of days a
> year! Did he know it was wrong, you bet. Did he care, NO! Is he the
> exception, absolutely not!!!
>
> Lynda
>
> ----------

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/17/99 6:24:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
famromo@... writes:

<< Not once he
sees that prison life is so much better than home life. Cable TV,
health clubs, free education, the works. >>

I know this is a popular conception of prison life but it leaves out a
few of the harsher realities, two major ones being beatings by other
prisoners or sometimes guards and rapes. Should these also be the
punishment? This is the reality of our justice system. If any of us think
about any of our own children or ourselves for that matter, being sent to
prison, I believe THOSE things are the fears that scare us most.
Also, if a child's life in prison really is so much better than his home
life, isn't part of the answer to see what can be done to change the home
life? I haven't met a kid yet who would rather be in prison for the cable TV
or the "health clubs."
I believe the U.S. responds too emotionally to these issues and doesn't
want to look at what it would take to truly solve the problems. I guess
that's why we have such a huge percentage of our people locked up.
I am just as capable as anyone else of responding with anger and a desire
for revenge when I hear about horrible things done to people. I don't know
what I would really do if someone hurt or killed someone I love. I know
there is a part of me that would probably want to kill the person myself.
Yet our current laws do not allow that as much as we all might feel that way
to some extent because we recognize that it would make our society more
violent, not less violent. In the same way, I believe that many of the
"solutions" the U.S. has now also make our society more violent.
Here is another thing I think about a lot: people talk so much about how
these kids should be made to take responsibility for what they do wrong. But
these kids didn't just land here from outer space. When is our sick society
going to take responsibility for creating an environment which produces the
kids they're complaining so much about? The previous generations, for all
of their own problems and injustices, did not have kids who did these kinds
of things.
Some like to believe that it's because they beat their kids more and
"didn't put up with this nonsense." However, I remember my own grandmothers
and neither one were harsh at all. They were very loving, warm people who
were always willing to talk, to enjoy kids, to help others, to extend mercy,
to help their kids with prolblems that the kids didn't know how to solve.
Too many kids today are left in situations which they have no IDEA how to
solve. Sure, there are some who do well DESPITE their horrible childhoods.
But don't we want to create an environment in which the tendency is to do
well rather than have it be the exception? Whenever I read about things like
the young boys who pushed the younger boy out of the window because he
wouldn't steal for them, the thing comes to my mind is how strange it is that
just a few years back when I was living in...wherever....or doing...whatever
it was...these kids were just little boys and I wonder what in the world
happened to make them become this way. If we don't start figuring out the
answers to that, we won't ever solve the problem.

Lucy in Calif.

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/99 4:19:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
LASaliger@... writes:

<< Too many kids today are left in situations which they have no IDEA how to
solve. >>

Reminds me just recently my 19yro son somehow agreed to buy almost $500 worth
of magazines over the phone. Even gave them his credit card #, they told him
it was a contest, and it was, your name was entered in some drawing every
time you paid the bill. I did mange to get this canceled but my son really
did not understand what he was doing. Made me look at how much kids know.
I'm not using this to explain away juvenile crime, just wanted to make
the point that sometimes we take even common sense for granted. After this
happened I had a talk with my other teenagers. I now try to take nothing for
granted.

Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/99 10:07:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
LASaliger@... writes:

<< I sent this and it never showed up on the e-mail from the list.... >>


I recieved it.

Laura

Lynda

Well, sorry to be so long in answering this but it would appear to have
been wandering in cyber-space and only landed in ye ol' e-mail box this
morning.

Studies in prison populations are the equivalent of anthropologists
wandering around the country in the 1800's "studying" the "savages." Of
course, everything they learned was the absolute truth, don't you know.
Well, as one who knows without a doubt and first hand what really happened,
let me explain to you about all those studies.

Single white male who, in the minds of those he was studying, should have
been gainfully employed bringing home the bacon to his family is instead
wandering around bumming food and lodging and sitting around all day with a
piece of paper asking questions from the elders. And doing equally strange
things like gathering up flowers and putting them inbetween sheets of paper
and then putting them in books. Now, to the NA mind, this person is insane
(literally) so they decide to humor him. They tell him nice stories and
the wilder the stories the happier he is. Well, with an insane person, you
want at all costs to keep him nice and happy because you never know what
might happen if an insane person is unhappy. When the "insane" white man
leaves, they all have a good laugh about the tall tales he was so happy to
hear not knowing that he would go and publish a story saying that these
people believed things like coyote talking to them or that frogs asked a
"god" to make their pond larger. You see they shared their "Grimm's Fairy
Tales" with these white men and it came back to bite them as being facts.

Now, as to prison populations, been there done that. The studies are only
part observation but mainly these cute little question and answer sessions,
sometimes with the prisoners and sometimes with staff. Neither of which is
a very good source of information. If they want to do an accurate study,
then gather up folks that are out of prison and don't have an ax to grind
or want an excuse to get out of their cell so think the bigger the story
the more time out they get. They even stand around the yard and discuss
what stories to tell.

You cannot legislate "community," therefore you must have an alternative.
Reality is that you are not going to rehab the over whelming majority of
these folks and all this time
spent talking about it isn't going to make it happen.

Also, perhaps one needs to look at a very unpopulate thought on the human
conscience and being. 33 1/3% inherited (in your genes), 33 1/3%
environment (learned behaviors, things that happen to you, school, class
mates, friends, family) and 33 1/3% is individual. Bob (the contract
killer) was studied to death, his family was studied to death. All the
shrinks and so forth were totally baffled.

And, Bob did have a conscience except when it came to his "work." It is
funny because it would be acceptable to be ruthless in your work if you
worked on Wall Street but it isn't when it comes to Bob's line of work. If
the banker ruthlessly evicts and forecloses on families, it is "just his
job" because he gives to United Way, belongs to Big Brothers, Big Sisters
and is a good husband and father. His conscience is never called into
question. And, I gotta tell ya, the banker has destroyed far more lives
and "killed" more people than Bob.

Oh, before you go off and hit the tangent road, that is not to say that
what Bob does is o.k., it is an illustration of our skewed way of thinking.

Well, since we don't have economic equity in the U.S., that argument don't
fly.

As to substanciation of abuse reports you are talking a very small
percentage! There was a study done which was, of course, immediately deep
sixed, in which a bunch of shrinks and social workers decided that they
needed a control group to "prove" that their investigative methodology was
accurate. They brought in their own children and swapped kids and did
their testing. 100% of the kids in the youngest age group tested "positive"
for at least 3 of 5 points indicating sexual abuse in younger children.
Why, because young children are "led" by non-verbal body language
"coaching" by adults and the "need to please" factor. Also, young children
do not understand the difference between inappropriate touching and
touching of any nature.

the bottomline is that rehab in a "caring" community has been tried in the
U.S. and failed miserably with a less than 3% success rate for violent
offenders. The rehab rate on pedophiles is less than 0.5%. All this talk
is great but do you want to take in one of these folks and rehab them???

Discussion is great but it doesn't fix the problems. All these folks
writing books aren't fixing the problem. I worked with these folks both in
the prison population and at an acute psych rehab facility. What I am
saying is not based on opinion but on facts. I don't know what the answer
is but I do know from first hand knowledge that what is put into print as
facts is just so much pie in the sky and/or pure unadulterated piles lift
by bulls by folks that aren't out to help or fix anything other than their
own wallets! Sells those books, hit the talk circuit, make that money not
one dime of which goes back into helping to fix the problem.

Lynda

----------

> From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
> In a small, (both geographically and culturally homogenous society it is
> possible to have draconian responses to "criminal" activity. I am sure
that
> the social stigma associated with offending behaviour is as much of a
> significant deterrent than the violent nature of the punishment. In
addition
> you need to look at what you don't have in such societies such little
items as
> freedom, self-determination, individual liberty, economic equity and any
> non-conformity. Order at any cost.
>
> In some communities wherein you have a communal distribution of resources
and a
> kinship network there was little crime not because there was not
tolerance for
> it but because the causative factors of aberrant, antisocial behaviour
were not
> there. Banishment from those communities was the ultimate sanction.
Being cut
> off from the loving network of the "people" provided any deterrent that
was
> needed. People in those communities had complete investment in the
values of
> those communities.
>
> In addition there have been very orderly societies with low "crime" rates
which
> have pursued hideous, violent, war filled courses of action against their
> neighbors.
>
> As for the "whole cloth" of allegations of abuse. There is outside
> corroboration of many instances of abuse. One doesn't have to just take
the
> word of someone making the allegation.
>
> As for corporal punishment, what can one say? Human history is a
tapestry of
> violence, inequity, atrocity, exploitation, mixed in with nobility and
> accomplishment. Some of those accomplishments ultimately do not seem
like
> positive developments in retrospect. The refusal and reluctance of
people to
> look and think critically at the behaviour of their own parents has more
to do
> with people's views on this subject than anything else.
>
> When examining the behaviour of normal, good people one needs to look at
the
> long litany of massively criminal behaviour of whole groups of people.
The
> Nazis experience could not be that easily discounted and it is really
only the
> most glaring and well publicized example of mass horror by "good normal"
> people. The inhumanity of people towards other people is a salient
feature of
> human history.
>
> Trotting out the aberrant psychopath as an example is always tantalizing.
Of
> course there could be the debate as to just how normal this lovely home
really
> was. "lovely" homes, and "love" from parents are really topics worthy of
very
> careful examination. Normal values leave much to be desired. "Loving"
normal
> parents regularly abuse their children out of ignorance of developmental
> "norms". Normal people hit their children and call it love. To be angry
and
> punish a toddler for trying to explore the world, following an absolute
> developmental imperative hard wired into the brain is a twisted abuse but
> happens regularly. This is from parents who do love their children and
have the
> very best of intentions.
>
> The contract killer's normal home life needs to be viewed by people who
are
> able to see the corruption of many normal practices. It is so facile to
> explain away horrifying behaviour by simple "volition". A contract
killer does
> not kill simply because "it was easy and he was good at it and only had
to work
> a couple of days a year." He lacked a conscience. How did that happen?
Do
> you care how that happened? Is it preventable? It is something
engendered by
> the conditions of his life? Is it a defective neurological apparatus?
The
> questions are there. Your imo simplistic explanation doesn't address
them.
>
> It would be tidy and much less anxiety producing if human behaviour were
just a
> simple question of volition. It isn't. Reluctance to look at the
intricate,
> paradox filled, frightening reality doesn't make it go away.
>
> There is a large body of research on prison populations which leads
clearly, in
> an epidemiological fashion to the conclusion that violence in childhood
is
> common denominator in that population. Violence greater than the norm.
Not
> all prisoners. Just as people subjected to violence in childhood do not
all
> offend. There is a direct correlation between the nature of a person's
family
> and that persons behaviour. It is predictive on a large scale. There are
> trends which can be seen.
>
> As for excuses. None of the horror in any individual's life is an excuse
for
> misbehaviour and offending against others. It may provide explanations
for a
> person's propensity to behave in a given way, it may provide an obstacle
to be
> overcome but it is never an excuse. People choose to do what they do and
must
> be held accountable. That accountability must be in the context of
community if
> it is to be meaningful. Punishment does not suffice. The punishing
aspects of
> accountability must be secondary and coincidental if you want the person
in
> question to be truly accountable.
>
> I think we disagree immensely.
>
> I think the discussion is worthwhile. I think you are mistaken as you
must
> think I am. I appreciate your engaging in the discussion nonetheless.
>