Joel Hawthorne

I am writing to alert people to a poll being run by CNN at

http://cnn.com/

Regarding whether children under sixteen charged with a serious crime should
be charged as adults.

I personally find the results of the poll sickening and further evidence of
the great hatred of children in the land.

I would urge people to vote. ....Hoping of course that this is a more
compassionate crowd than the public at large.

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Anony

I don't know how much of this I missed but if we are all throwing our two cents in I guess I'll add mine.
Wrong is wrong. I'll admit I'm not that old that but I remember being sixteen. I knew right from wrong.
I had a friend that was gang raped by four 15 year old "boys". They knew right from wrong. They chose wrong.
Plain and simple. I think in this country we have a tendency to pollycoddle the guilty and expect forebearance
from the innocent. Those guys did not act out of confusion or because the adults around them did not understand them.
They chose to do a vicious and malicious act of violence that drove a dear friend to deep depression and suicide. They
deserved to be punished as adults. Period. At sixteen I did not consider myself a child nor did the four hoodlums that
committed that act of atrocity.

Well, enough of that for one day. Like I said, just adding my two cents, Sessualej

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 11/16/99 at 5:56 PM Joel Hawthorne wrote:

>From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
>I am writing to alert people to a poll being run by CNN at
>
>http://cnn.com/
>
>Regarding whether children under sixteen charged with a serious crime should
>be charged as adults.
>
>I personally find the results of the poll sickening and further evidence of
>the great hatred of children in the land.
>
>I would urge people to vote. ....Hoping of course that this is a more
>compassionate crowd than the public at large.
>
>best wishes
>Joel
>
>For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
>http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
>
>All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
>Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
>
>>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Lynda

We watched the trial of the 13 year old that killed a 16 yo when the 13 yo
was 11. The kidlets and I had a long discussion about this which they
started when they heard the attorney making all these excuses. I think my
7 yo and 11 yo's comments about cover the subject: "Don't they know the
difference between an explanation and an excuse," and "why should anyone
get a free pass because of their age, the other kid is just as dead." My
15 yo wasn't quite as nice about it and, in fact, had some rather hard
liner things to say about some crimes committed by kids under 16 and what
should be done with the kids.

Sooo, thinking perhaps it was just my kidlets that were thinking that way,
we did a poll of their friends. Seems the only folks worrying about
charging kids as adults are adults. The kids all liked the old Baretta
quote, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

They also had an interesting take on the situation of juvenile crime, "Ya
know, kids don't expect to be punished, they know a lawyer can usually get
them off or if the lawyer doesn't, a shrink will." This from a 14 yo.
And, another kid (16 yo) said that most kids know the law better than
adults and know their way around the system better than adults.

So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.

Lynda

----------
> From: Anony <primo@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
> Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 9:03 PM
>
> From: "Anony" <primo@...>
>
> I don't know how much of this I missed but if we are all throwing our two
cents in I guess I'll add mine.
> Wrong is wrong. I'll admit I'm not that old that but I remember being
sixteen. I knew right from wrong.
> I had a friend that was gang raped by four 15 year old "boys". They knew
right from wrong. They chose wrong.
> Plain and simple. I think in this country we have a tendency to
pollycoddle the guilty and expect forebearance
> from the innocent. Those guys did not act out of confusion or because
the adults around them did not understand them.
> They chose to do a vicious and malicious act of violence that drove a
dear friend to deep depression and suicide. They
> deserved to be punished as adults. Period. At sixteen I did not
consider myself a child nor did the four hoodlums that
> committed that act of atrocity.
>
> Well, enough of that for one day. Like I said, just adding my two cents,
Sessualej
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 11/16/99 at 5:56 PM Joel Hawthorne wrote:
>
> >From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
> >
> >I am writing to alert people to a poll being run by CNN at
> >
> >http://cnn.com/
> >
> >Regarding whether children under sixteen charged with a serious crime
should
> >be charged as adults.
> >
> >I personally find the results of the poll sickening and further evidence
of
> >the great hatred of children in the land.
> >
> >I would urge people to vote. ....Hoping of course that this is a more
> >compassionate crowd than the public at large.
> >
> >best wishes
> >Joel
> >
> >For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
> >http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
> >
> >All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
> >Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
> >
> >>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> >Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Mark Worthen

Lynda, et al:

<snip>
<So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.>

Starting at what age, e.g., 16, 14, 12, 10? Should the IQ of the juvenile
matter, e.g., should a 14 year old with an IQ of 70 be tried as an adult
just as readily as a 14 year old with a 130 IQ? What if he or she exhibits
psychotic symptoms at the time of the offense? Should children/teens who
have suffered severe and extensive sexual and/or physical abuse be tried as
adults, and be subject to adult sentences, just as much as kids who haven't
expereinced such trauma?

I'm comfortable with 16 and 17 year olds being tried as adults (in North
Carolina it's automatic) but when we start going below 16, we run the risk
of incarcerating juveniles for decades who might be rehabilitated,
contribute to society, and, if the humanistic argument doesn't sway you,
save us all a ton of money. In addition, some early adolescents with low
IQ's are functioning at the level of 6 or 7 year olds. Would we want to put
a 7 year old on trial as an adult and sentence him or her to 40 years in the
state prison?

For those under-16 juveniles who pose a high risk of recidivism or who have
committed heinous crimes (like the rape mentioned in a previous posting) I
would rather the juvenile/family courts retain jurisdiction over these
defendants indefinitely with the possibility of extended incarceration,
intensive supervised probation, and/or mandantory treatment (depending on
the needs and willingness of the offender). Such a plan would retain the
rehabilitative emphasis of the juvenile courts but still allow for extensive
incarceration for the protection of society and retribution for the victims.

Finally, my biggest concern about focusing on lowering the age for trial as
an adult is that the most effective approach to juvenile crime,
*prevention*, gets lost in the discussion.

Mark Worthen
Charlotte, NC


----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda <lurine@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll


> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>
> We watched the trial of the 13 year old that killed a 16 yo when the 13 yo
> was 11. The kidlets and I had a long discussion about this which they
> started when they heard the attorney making all these excuses. I think my
> 7 yo and 11 yo's comments about cover the subject: "Don't they know the
> difference between an explanation and an excuse," and "why should anyone
> get a free pass because of their age, the other kid is just as dead." My
> 15 yo wasn't quite as nice about it and, in fact, had some rather hard
> liner things to say about some crimes committed by kids under 16 and what
> should be done with the kids.
>
> Sooo, thinking perhaps it was just my kidlets that were thinking that way,
> we did a poll of their friends. Seems the only folks worrying about
> charging kids as adults are adults. The kids all liked the old Baretta
> quote, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
>
> They also had an interesting take on the situation of juvenile crime, "Ya
> know, kids don't expect to be punished, they know a lawyer can usually get
> them off or if the lawyer doesn't, a shrink will." This from a 14 yo.
> And, another kid (16 yo) said that most kids know the law better than
> adults and know their way around the system better than adults.
>
> So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.
>
> Lynda
>

Joel Hawthorne

Check out the sites below for some more alternate views about the nature of
justice. Restorative justice is one of my favorite themes. I just discovered
it as a "movement" about 1 1/2 years ago.

http://www.cerj.org/

http://www.pressenter.com/~davewest/prisons/prisons.html

http://www.newmexicodrugpolicy.org/

http://karen@...>./

http://www.forgiveness-institute.org/

http://naturalchild.com/home/

Retributive justice doesn't work. Punishment is very ineffective for deterring
crime. Most people don't refrain from criminal activity because of fear of
punishment.

Mark Worthen wrote:

> From: "Mark Worthen" <mworthen@...>
>
> Lynda, et al:
>
> <snip>
> <So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.>
>
> Starting at what age, e.g., 16, 14, 12, 10? Should the IQ of the juvenile
> matter, e.g., should a 14 year old with an IQ of 70 be tried as an adult
> just as readily as a 14 year old with a 130 IQ? What if he or she exhibits
> psychotic symptoms at the time of the offense? Should children/teens who
> have suffered severe and extensive sexual and/or physical abuse be tried as
> adults, and be subject to adult sentences, just as much as kids who haven't
> expereinced such trauma?
>
> I'm comfortable with 16 and 17 year olds being tried as adults (in North
> Carolina it's automatic) but when we start going below 16, we run the risk
> of incarcerating juveniles for decades who might be rehabilitated,
> contribute to society, and, if the humanistic argument doesn't sway you,
> save us all a ton of money. In addition, some early adolescents with low
> IQ's are functioning at the level of 6 or 7 year olds. Would we want to put
> a 7 year old on trial as an adult and sentence him or her to 40 years in the
> state prison?
>
> For those under-16 juveniles who pose a high risk of recidivism or who have
> committed heinous crimes (like the rape mentioned in a previous posting) I
> would rather the juvenile/family courts retain jurisdiction over these
> defendants indefinitely with the possibility of extended incarceration,
> intensive supervised probation, and/or mandantory treatment (depending on
> the needs and willingness of the offender). Such a plan would retain the
> rehabilitative emphasis of the juvenile courts but still allow for extensive
> incarceration for the protection of society and retribution for the victims.
>
> Finally, my biggest concern about focusing on lowering the age for trial as
> an adult is that the most effective approach to juvenile crime,
> *prevention*, gets lost in the discussion.
>
> Mark Worthen
> Charlotte, NC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lynda <lurine@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
>
> > From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> >
> > We watched the trial of the 13 year old that killed a 16 yo when the 13 yo
> > was 11. The kidlets and I had a long discussion about this which they
> > started when they heard the attorney making all these excuses. I think my
> > 7 yo and 11 yo's comments about cover the subject: "Don't they know the
> > difference between an explanation and an excuse," and "why should anyone
> > get a free pass because of their age, the other kid is just as dead." My
> > 15 yo wasn't quite as nice about it and, in fact, had some rather hard
> > liner things to say about some crimes committed by kids under 16 and what
> > should be done with the kids.
> >
> > Sooo, thinking perhaps it was just my kidlets that were thinking that way,
> > we did a poll of their friends. Seems the only folks worrying about
> > charging kids as adults are adults. The kids all liked the old Baretta
> > quote, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
> >
> > They also had an interesting take on the situation of juvenile crime, "Ya
> > know, kids don't expect to be punished, they know a lawyer can usually get
> > them off or if the lawyer doesn't, a shrink will." This from a 14 yo.
> > And, another kid (16 yo) said that most kids know the law better than
> > adults and know their way around the system better than adults.
> >
> > So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.
> >
> > Lynda
> >
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Joel Hawthorne

Kids are in fact notoriously harsh in their views of crime and punishment.
This does not make them necessarily good role models for our system of
justice. Children have a generally either/ or sort of view of things which
does not allow for any subtle nuance to influence their thinking.

Our system encourages the making of excuses instead of taking responsibility.
Legalistic wrangling instead of justice.

Retributive justice does not work. People must be held accountable for their
behaviour but a model which emphasizes punishment does not result in what we
want which is for people to genuinely feel bad for their bad behaviour and
undertake the changes needed to ensure that they don't behave badly again.
Punishment simply angers people, develops resistance and blinds the offender to
his responsibility for his behaviour. Most of the punishments we offer for
offending behaviours in fact let people off the hook that we really want them
on...that of personal responsibility for bad actions.

Yes lots of kids know the law better than adults and know their way around the
system better than adults. It is another failure of the criminal justice
system that manipulating the system is the main focus. Justice emerges from
communities not the state. Again the sites below might add more divergent
information to the discussion.


http://www.cerj.org/

http://www.pressenter.com/~davewest/prisons/prisons.html

http://www.newmexicodrugpolicy.org/

http://karen@...>./

http://www.forgiveness-institute.org/

http://naturalchild.com/home/


Lynda wrote:

> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>
> We watched the trial of the 13 year old that killed a 16 yo when the 13 yo
> was 11. The kidlets and I had a long discussion about this which they
> started when they heard the attorney making all these excuses. I think my
> 7 yo and 11 yo's comments about cover the subject: "Don't they know the
> difference between an explanation and an excuse," and "why should anyone
> get a free pass because of their age, the other kid is just as dead." My
> 15 yo wasn't quite as nice about it and, in fact, had some rather hard
> liner things to say about some crimes committed by kids under 16 and what
> should be done with the kids.
>
> Sooo, thinking perhaps it was just my kidlets that were thinking that way,
> we did a poll of their friends. Seems the only folks worrying about
> charging kids as adults are adults. The kids all liked the old Baretta
> quote, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
>
> They also had an interesting take on the situation of juvenile crime, "Ya
> know, kids don't expect to be punished, they know a lawyer can usually get
> them off or if the lawyer doesn't, a shrink will." This from a 14 yo.
> And, another kid (16 yo) said that most kids know the law better than
> adults and know their way around the system better than adults.
>
> So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.
>
> Lynda
>
> ----------
> > From: Anony <primo@...>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
> > Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 9:03 PM
> >
> > From: "Anony" <primo@...>
> >
> > I don't know how much of this I missed but if we are all throwing our two
> cents in I guess I'll add mine.
> > Wrong is wrong. I'll admit I'm not that old that but I remember being
> sixteen. I knew right from wrong.
> > I had a friend that was gang raped by four 15 year old "boys". They knew
> right from wrong. They chose wrong.
> > Plain and simple. I think in this country we have a tendency to
> pollycoddle the guilty and expect forebearance
> > from the innocent. Those guys did not act out of confusion or because
> the adults around them did not understand them.
> > They chose to do a vicious and malicious act of violence that drove a
> dear friend to deep depression and suicide. They
> > deserved to be punished as adults. Period. At sixteen I did not
> consider myself a child nor did the four hoodlums that
> > committed that act of atrocity.
> >
> > Well, enough of that for one day. Like I said, just adding my two cents,
> Sessualej
> >
> > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
> >
> > On 11/16/99 at 5:56 PM Joel Hawthorne wrote:
> >
> > >From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
> > >
> > >I am writing to alert people to a poll being run by CNN at
> > >
> > >http://cnn.com/
> > >
> > >Regarding whether children under sixteen charged with a serious crime
> should
> > >be charged as adults.
> > >
> > >I personally find the results of the poll sickening and further evidence
> of
> > >the great hatred of children in the land.
> > >
> > >I would urge people to vote. ....Hoping of course that this is a more
> > >compassionate crowd than the public at large.
> > >
> > >best wishes
> > >Joel
> > >
> > >For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
> > >http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
> > >
> > >All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
> > >Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
> > >
> > >>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > >Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/17/1999 6:54:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!, lurine@...
writes:

<< So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.
>>
I would have to agree with Lynda. My nephew was a gang member. He robbed
pizza drivers at night with a small caliber hand gun. I think that he should
have been charged as an adult. At the age of 15, he knew just what he was
doing, and he knew the consequences. For all the money he stole, people he
scared, and time he wasted, he received 90 days in a boot camp, 30 days in a
halfway house, and 1 year probation. Mind you, he was on probation when he
went and robbed 10+ pizza drivers. They dropped that probation for the new
charges!?!?!
Then there is the matter of the little school house killers, and I do not
mean Columbine....These children live under 4 miles from my home. 4 boys
plotted, listed, and obtained weapons to kill other children during a pep
rally that would be held in the gym. They had a list of over 70 children,
wrote each child's full name and where the child would sit... They also
listed where they would place bombs, so that in a panic, no one could get
away... Their trial started yesterday. 1 child was let go (he is testifying
against the others) These 3 boys, 14, 14, and 13, are looking at life in
prison. The mayor thinks that it is too harsh, for they ONLY planned it. It
did not happen... Can you imagine if it did? this tragedy would be bigger
than Columbine, and all the added problems that follow. This was not even a
highschool, it was a middle school. Just in the aftermath of this event, Port
Huron had numerous bomb threats, fights, and large scale violence. The county
building closed due to a threat.
It is now policy for children, who even mention dismemberment of another
child, to be suspended from school for no less than 1 day. My 7 yo, ADD son
went to school after spending the morning playing Playstation, and told a
little girl that he was going to shoot her, splatter blood all aver the wall.
SUSPENDED! I think he deserved it. This child is a victim of joint custody,
and his Dad is not the best role model... He is against me homeschooling.
Back to the point. If television is going to show the world decline and
mark the consequences, then children know the before AND after of every
wrongdoing. They know in real life that every action has a reaction, and
every choice has a consequence. They choose to violate the law, they should
be willing to suffer the penalty. I am raising my children as such.

Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the lead. s.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn

Joel Hawthorne

Well I have opened the proverbial can of worms. Those guys did what they did for a variety of reasons including being
raised in a culture which has routinely committed acts of violence against women and children with complete impunity for
generations. A culture which worships violence in a number of guises. They committed their crime because they had been
raised to objectify persons and treat them as objects which is the same value which allows the systematic exploitation of
children around the world for profit. It is a failure of the heart.

Punishment does not work. I want those guys to live the rest of their lives with moral awareness of what they have done. I
want their entire lives to be dedicated to dealing with the terrible consequences of their actions. I don't want them to
even think for a moment that when they've done "the time" that this compensates for their crime.

Real Justice is a much harsher thing in many regards than our legalistic approach. It allows people back into the community
and it deals with the real underlying issues. Forgiveness is the ultimate goal. Forgiveness for offenses, even self
forgiveness cannot undo the moral suffering which one has when one has committed offenses against someone else. A person
with a full conscience lives with the consequences of their actions.

Anony wrote:

> From: "Anony" <primo@...>
>
> I don't know how much of this I missed but if we are all throwing our two cents in I guess I'll add mine.
> Wrong is wrong. I'll admit I'm not that old that but I remember being sixteen. I knew right from wrong.
> I had a friend that was gang raped by four 15 year old "boys". They knew right from wrong. They chose wrong.
> Plain and simple. I think in this country we have a tendency to pollycoddle the guilty and expect forebearance
> from the innocent. Those guys did not act out of confusion or because the adults around them did not understand them.
> They chose to do a vicious and malicious act of violence that drove a dear friend to deep depression and suicide. They
> deserved to be punished as adults. Period. At sixteen I did not consider myself a child nor did the four hoodlums that
> committed that act of atrocity.
>
> Well, enough of that for one day. Like I said, just adding my two cents, Sessualej
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 11/16/99 at 5:56 PM Joel Hawthorne wrote:
>
> >From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
> >
> >I am writing to alert people to a poll being run by CNN at
> >
> >http://cnn.com/
> >
> >Regarding whether children under sixteen charged with a serious crime should
> >be charged as adults.
> >
> >I personally find the results of the poll sickening and further evidence of
> >the great hatred of children in the land.
> >
> >I would urge people to vote. ....Hoping of course that this is a more
> >compassionate crowd than the public at large.
> >
> >best wishes
> >Joel
> >
> >For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
> >http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
> >
> >All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
> >Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
> >
> >>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> >Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

[email protected]

Mark-
If a child with a low IQ, who mentally is functioning at half his (her)
age, does a crime, where are the parents? My children of 8 and 9 are often by
my side. I would never consider a younger child to be off and alone. If I had
a child functioning lower than the normal, I would make sure that I was
around. My older children are above average in IQ, and that cause problems. I
make sure that until they know the extent of their doings, they are not alone!
I do see your point, though. If a child can do better with some type of
severe rehabilitation, then yes, it is worth the effort to work with the
child, and not pay for life on him. BUT, what if we rehab the child, set him
out into public, only for him to strike out again? Where are we now? We just
invested hundreds of thousands into this child who is again looking at a
judge and fearing a life term? Now what have we done? Are we to blame if the
rehab does not work?
With my nephew, he thinks that he can roll in sh**, and still small like
roses. He gets the court to see his background, have pity on him, and
basically let him go...
(BTW Jermaine is biracial, black and white. Mother is always in trouble with
the law for both drugs and stealing. Lived with many other members of family
and foster care. Father is in Federal Prison, I have no idea what for... See
how hard his life is? Sob, sob... NOT My grandmother lets him get away with
everything, even stealing her car) His life is not all candy and cakes, but
you make what you want out of your life... He is making nothing.
I still feel that if you commit the crime, you do the time!

Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the lead. s.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn

Lynda

Having worked with the prison population, I can vouch for the "fact!" that
most of the molestation and abuse "explanation" are a crock. I have been
there when shrinks, social workers, lawyers and pastors have made speeches
similar to: "I can't tell you what to say but . . . I had a client that
(fill in the blank with your abuse of choice and then go into great detail
of the hows, whys, wheres, etc. of the supposed abuse took place) and after
that was explained to the court/parole board, we got a new trial/shortened
sentence/early parole."

Now, my one rule to working with the client population I had was the truth
so that I would know where to place them and what after services to set up.
My experience in the gladiator schools was that over 90% (yes, NINETY %)
were not abused or molested! My experience also shows that recitification
is the norm even with rehab services! And, I count recitification as
repeat criminals whether or not they get caught and the hard facts are that
the majority do repeat but simply don't get caught.

Now, as to IQ, are we suppose to make an exception because of IQ? O.K.
son, your IQ is low so we will turn you loose so you can do it again. Been
there, seen that. Young man with the IQ of a 9 yo was molesting little (4,
5, 6 yo) girls. The IQ excuse was used, he did "rehab" for 5 years and was
turned loose. Repeat, did 7 years in "rehab" psych unit and was turned
loose. Repeat. Only this time he didn't get to do his "rehab," the father
of one of the little girls shot and killed him and is now doing time.

And, now as to my favorite. And, again, I have extensive experience with
the shrink excuses having worked at an acute psych rehab unit for years,
please tell me exactly how you can determine if a person had a psychotic
episode at the time the crime was committed??? Because they tell you they
did??? Paaleeezzzz, like they aren't going to lie to get out of doing the
time! And, again, we just turn them loose so they can have another
supposed psychotic episode and repeat the crime???

The numbers tell the true story, with the increase in the number of shrinks
and social workers you have a following increase in the number of violent
crimes. This is not a case of find a need and fill it, it is a case of
create a need and fill it! Pre-Freud and his let's use folks as drug
guinea pigs, the per capita rate of violence among youthful offenders was
extremely low as were the number of mass murderers and serial killers and
teen suicides. The operative words here being "per capita."

Turning folks loose and telling them to take their meds does not work
because it is against the law to "force" them to take their meds. The ACLU
has had a hayday with that one in several cases, one of which they have
taken all the way to the Supreme Court.

But, all these arguments re: youth vs. adult are moot, there are already
laws in place that cover those exact same "excuses" in adults, soooo what
is the diff??? The only difference should be where they are placed, not
what you get for the crimes.

Age, mental capacity and psych problems of the perp don't make the victim
any less dead or raped or molested. Somehow, we have gotten away from
looking at the victim as just that, the victim and looking at the perp as
some kind of victim. My 7 yo can understand that if you aim a gun at
someone and pull the trigger, you will kill that person. So, maybe what we
ought to do is actually have a jury of peers (really peers) for all folks
tried! I think you might find that a jury of actual peers might have some
real surprises in store for kids who think they have a free age related
pass!

Lynda

----------
> From: Mark Worthen <mworthen@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
> Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 11:55 PM
>
> From: "Mark Worthen" <mworthen@...>
>
> Lynda, et al:
>
> <snip>
> <So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.>
>
> Starting at what age, e.g., 16, 14, 12, 10? Should the IQ of the juvenile
> matter, e.g., should a 14 year old with an IQ of 70 be tried as an adult
> just as readily as a 14 year old with a 130 IQ? What if he or she
exhibits
> psychotic symptoms at the time of the offense? Should children/teens who
> have suffered severe and extensive sexual and/or physical abuse be tried
as
> adults, and be subject to adult sentences, just as much as kids who
haven't
> expereinced such trauma?
>
> I'm comfortable with 16 and 17 year olds being tried as adults (in North
> Carolina it's automatic) but when we start going below 16, we run the
risk
> of incarcerating juveniles for decades who might be rehabilitated,
> contribute to society, and, if the humanistic argument doesn't sway you,
> save us all a ton of money. In addition, some early adolescents with low
> IQ's are functioning at the level of 6 or 7 year olds. Would we want to
put
> a 7 year old on trial as an adult and sentence him or her to 40 years in
the
> state prison?
>
> For those under-16 juveniles who pose a high risk of recidivism or who
have
> committed heinous crimes (like the rape mentioned in a previous posting)
I
> would rather the juvenile/family courts retain jurisdiction over these
> defendants indefinitely with the possibility of extended incarceration,
> intensive supervised probation, and/or mandantory treatment (depending on
> the needs and willingness of the offender). Such a plan would retain the
> rehabilitative emphasis of the juvenile courts but still allow for
extensive
> incarceration for the protection of society and retribution for the
victims.
>
> Finally, my biggest concern about focusing on lowering the age for trial
as
> an adult is that the most effective approach to juvenile crime,
> *prevention*, gets lost in the discussion.
>
> Mark Worthen
> Charlotte, NC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lynda <lurine@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
>
>
> > From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> >
> > We watched the trial of the 13 year old that killed a 16 yo when the 13
yo
> > was 11. The kidlets and I had a long discussion about this which they
> > started when they heard the attorney making all these excuses. I think
my
> > 7 yo and 11 yo's comments about cover the subject: "Don't they know
the
> > difference between an explanation and an excuse," and "why should
anyone
> > get a free pass because of their age, the other kid is just as dead."
My
> > 15 yo wasn't quite as nice about it and, in fact, had some rather hard
> > liner things to say about some crimes committed by kids under 16 and
what
> > should be done with the kids.
> >
> > Sooo, thinking perhaps it was just my kidlets that were thinking that
way,
> > we did a poll of their friends. Seems the only folks worrying about
> > charging kids as adults are adults. The kids all liked the old Baretta
> > quote, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
> >
> > They also had an interesting take on the situation of juvenile crime,
"Ya
> > know, kids don't expect to be punished, they know a lawyer can usually
get
> > them off or if the lawyer doesn't, a shrink will." This from a 14 yo.
> > And, another kid (16 yo) said that most kids know the law better than
> > adults and know their way around the system better than adults.
> >
> > So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.
> >
> > Lynda
> >
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>> I had a friend that was gang raped by four 15 year old "boys".

I had a friend who was gang raped by several boys when she was a teen also.
We had a very close knit group of young people because we were homeless
and we looked out for each other and took care of each other. She was
attacked by strangers in the park, and she was 13 years old. Nothing much
ever happened to the guys, even though she knew their faces and saw them
around and could identify them, because she did not have an adult to speak
for her and nobody much cared about the street kids. Anyway she could not
admit to being a victim and take time to grieve and heal, as there was
nobody to shelter her while she did that. She had to harden herself and
get on with survival. We could cry together, but there was only so much we
could do for her when we were worried about where we were going to sleep
that night or where our next meal was coming from.

Nanci K.

[email protected]

Lynda!
I stand up and applaud you! Bravo! Bravo! The man who killed that guy over
his little girl should have gotten off on temporary SANITY! I am the victim
of sexual abuse. I am not out there raping or coercing people to do anything.
I have not needed rehab, I got over it! And when I did go to a counselor (for
affirmation of ADHD) she wanted to bring it to light. Well, I am ADHD, not
clinically acknowledged, because I told her to stick it where the sun don't
shine! Give 'em hell!

Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the lead. s.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn

Joel Hawthorne

In my opinion continued confusion. These kids are detached and unparented. They
are raised in a society that hates children and views them as chattel at best and
nuisances most of the time.

They are peer identified and are defended against feeling. They did not do it to
themselves. They are victims. Those who are victims often victimize others. The
answers are not in further punishment.

You describe a nephew who received punishment which was ineffective. Sending
people to crime school is an ineffective response. They will get out even less
attached more hardened, more violent, and skilled in criminal behaviour.

Focusing on effects instead of causes is a waste.

LifesLearn@... wrote:

> From: LifesLearn@...
>
> In a message dated 11/17/1999 6:54:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!, lurine@...
> writes:
>
> << So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.
> >>
> I would have to agree with Lynda. My nephew was a gang member. He robbed
> pizza drivers at night with a small caliber hand gun. I think that he should
> have been charged as an adult. At the age of 15, he knew just what he was
> doing, and he knew the consequences. For all the money he stole, people he
> scared, and time he wasted, he received 90 days in a boot camp, 30 days in a
> halfway house, and 1 year probation. Mind you, he was on probation when he
> went and robbed 10+ pizza drivers. They dropped that probation for the new
> charges!?!?!
> Then there is the matter of the little school house killers, and I do not
> mean Columbine....These children live under 4 miles from my home. 4 boys
> plotted, listed, and obtained weapons to kill other children during a pep
> rally that would be held in the gym. They had a list of over 70 children,
> wrote each child's full name and where the child would sit... They also
> listed where they would place bombs, so that in a panic, no one could get
> away... Their trial started yesterday. 1 child was let go (he is testifying
> against the others) These 3 boys, 14, 14, and 13, are looking at life in
> prison. The mayor thinks that it is too harsh, for they ONLY planned it. It
> did not happen... Can you imagine if it did? this tragedy would be bigger
> than Columbine, and all the added problems that follow. This was not even a
> highschool, it was a middle school. Just in the aftermath of this event, Port
> Huron had numerous bomb threats, fights, and large scale violence. The county
> building closed due to a threat.
> It is now policy for children, who even mention dismemberment of another
> child, to be suspended from school for no less than 1 day. My 7 yo, ADD son
> went to school after spending the morning playing Playstation, and told a
> little girl that he was going to shoot her, splatter blood all aver the wall.
> SUSPENDED! I think he deserved it. This child is a victim of joint custody,
> and his Dad is not the best role model... He is against me homeschooling.
> Back to the point. If television is going to show the world decline and
> mark the consequences, then children know the before AND after of every
> wrongdoing. They know in real life that every action has a reaction, and
> every choice has a consequence. They choose to violate the law, they should
> be willing to suffer the penalty. I am raising my children as such.
>
> Blessings,
> Stephanie
> Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
> protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
> I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
> I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
> Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the lead. s.
> ***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
> IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
> ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Mark Worthen

Stephanie,

I'm not saying that kids should not be held accountable or that they need
pity. I actually think expecting kids to be responsible and *not* feeling
sorry for them is much more loving. My concern is with locking up children
for several years, providing little or no rehabilitation, and then being
suprised when they commit more crimes upon their release.

I agree there are some juveniles who do not respond to rehabilitation. But
it is often very difficult to identify those children after just one or two
offenses. The majority of adolescents who commit crimes do not go on to
commit crimes as adults. In fact, *most* adolescent boys have committed a
crime (not just a status offense) but they grow up to law-abiding adults.

I think we need to keep asking ourselves, what is the purpose of the
criminal justice system? Is it to decrease crime through deterrence? Punish
for the sake of retribution? Protect the community? Make citizens feel safer
even if they're not? I believe in locking up career criminals for as long as
possible because they commit most of the crimes. Locking them up protects
the community. Some career criminals can be identified as adolescents (but
not many) so I'd include such adolescents in this category of "lock 'em up
to protect society."

Incarceration does deter most citizens without an adult criminal history
from committing felonies. But deternence only deters a minority of persons
with a criminal history. In general, deterrence is much overrated by the
general public because we want to believe that it works for others because
it works for us. And gosh darn it if it doesn't work for them, lock 'em up
anyway for their bad attitude!

I do not believe in retribution. If one of our children hits the other
without provocation, we don't encourage the recipient of the blow to seek
retribution from his or her sibling (self-defense, yes, retribution, no).
Are they held accountable? Of course. (I'm talking about serious
infractions, not typical sibling rivalry that is best dealt with in other
ways). And, as Joel has discussed at the societal level, we try to encourage
our children to understand the effect of their action and allow them to feel
shame (note I'm not saying "shame them" but "allow them to feel shame"). If
that's how we deal with children, why not with adults? (I'm assuming others
don't encourage their children to seek retribution--is that accurate?).
Again, I'm not saying some criminals shouldn't be incarcerated. If the
incarceration protects us, I'm all for it.

Rather than focusing on incarceration, we could lower the crime rate more
effectively if we locked up fewer drug addicts, for example, and provide
them with treatment that's always available (it also saves us at least $5
for every $1 we spend on treatment). Or we could, as the International
Chiefs of Police recently recommended, establish more afterschool programs
for youth (the Chiefs supported this plan over hiring more police
officers!).

Thank you for your civil response about an emotional issue.

Best regards,

Mark Worthen





----- Original Message -----
From: <LifesLearn@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll


> From: LifesLearn@...
>
> Mark-
> If a child with a low IQ, who mentally is functioning at half his
(her)
> age, does a crime, where are the parents? My children of 8 and 9 are often
by
> my side. I would never consider a younger child to be off and alone. If I
had
> a child functioning lower than the normal, I would make sure that I was
> around. My older children are above average in IQ, and that cause
problems. I
> make sure that until they know the extent of their doings, they are not
alone!
> I do see your point, though. If a child can do better with some type
of
> severe rehabilitation, then yes, it is worth the effort to work with the
> child, and not pay for life on him. BUT, what if we rehab the child, set
him
> out into public, only for him to strike out again? Where are we now? We
just
> invested hundreds of thousands into this child who is again looking at a
> judge and fearing a life term? Now what have we done? Are we to blame if
the
> rehab does not work?
> With my nephew, he thinks that he can roll in sh**, and still small
like
> roses. He gets the court to see his background, have pity on him, and
> basically let him go...
> (BTW Jermaine is biracial, black and white. Mother is always in trouble
with
> the law for both drugs and stealing. Lived with many other members of
family
> and foster care. Father is in Federal Prison, I have no idea what for...
See
> how hard his life is? Sob, sob... NOT My grandmother lets him get away
with
> everything, even stealing her car) His life is not all candy and cakes,
but
> you make what you want out of your life... He is making nothing.
> I still feel that if you commit the crime, you do the time!
>
> Blessings,
> Stephanie
> Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
> protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
> I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
> I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
> Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the
lead. s.
> ***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
> IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
> ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>

Mark Worthen

Ooops. In my last post I wrote:

>But deternence only deters a minority of persons
> with a criminal history.

As you probably figured, that should have been:

But incarceration only deters a minority of persons with a criminal history.

Mark Worthen

Joel Hawthorne

I am agreement with what Mark writes with a few provisos. I too, believe there
are people from whom we need to be protected. These people should be kept in
comfortable, safe, humane circumstances because that is the kind of people we
are not because of who they are. They are not there to be punished because
punishment does not elicit good behaviour and diminishes the punisher.

Most people do not refrain from committing crimes because of the fear of
retribution or doing jail time. Most people refrain from doing these things
from a complex or matrix of many things of which fear of retribution may play a
small part. Most criminals do not fear retribution because most criminals have
gotten away with their crimes. They are most often not charged. Even if they
have been punished before they do not believe they will be caught this time.

Restraint from impulses comes from an investment in the values of your community
and family. Restraint from outside forces is a very poor substitute for that
internal restraint. Cultivating that interior restraint is the challenge. It
is a long process best accomplished by having attached children in the context
of home and community.

Mark Worthen wrote:

> From: "Mark Worthen" <mworthen@...>
>
> Stephanie,
>
> I'm not saying that kids should not be held accountable or that they need
> pity. I actually think expecting kids to be responsible and *not* feeling
> sorry for them is much more loving. My concern is with locking up children
> for several years, providing little or no rehabilitation, and then being
> suprised when they commit more crimes upon their release.
>
> I agree there are some juveniles who do not respond to rehabilitation. But
> it is often very difficult to identify those children after just one or two
> offenses. The majority of adolescents who commit crimes do not go on to
> commit crimes as adults. In fact, *most* adolescent boys have committed a
> crime (not just a status offense) but they grow up to law-abiding adults.
>
> I think we need to keep asking ourselves, what is the purpose of the
> criminal justice system? Is it to decrease crime through deterrence? Punish
> for the sake of retribution? Protect the community? Make citizens feel safer
> even if they're not? I believe in locking up career criminals for as long as
> possible because they commit most of the crimes. Locking them up protects
> the community. Some career criminals can be identified as adolescents (but
> not many) so I'd include such adolescents in this category of "lock 'em up
> to protect society."
>
> Incarceration does deter most citizens without an adult criminal history
> from committing felonies. But deternence only deters a minority of persons
> with a criminal history. In general, deterrence is much overrated by the
> general public because we want to believe that it works for others because
> it works for us. And gosh darn it if it doesn't work for them, lock 'em up
> anyway for their bad attitude!
>
> I do not believe in retribution. If one of our children hits the other
> without provocation, we don't encourage the recipient of the blow to seek
> retribution from his or her sibling (self-defense, yes, retribution, no).
> Are they held accountable? Of course. (I'm talking about serious
> infractions, not typical sibling rivalry that is best dealt with in other
> ways). And, as Joel has discussed at the societal level, we try to encourage
> our children to understand the effect of their action and allow them to feel
> shame (note I'm not saying "shame them" but "allow them to feel shame"). If
> that's how we deal with children, why not with adults? (I'm assuming others
> don't encourage their children to seek retribution--is that accurate?).
> Again, I'm not saying some criminals shouldn't be incarcerated. If the
> incarceration protects us, I'm all for it.
>
> Rather than focusing on incarceration, we could lower the crime rate more
> effectively if we locked up fewer drug addicts, for example, and provide
> them with treatment that's always available (it also saves us at least $5
> for every $1 we spend on treatment). Or we could, as the International
> Chiefs of Police recently recommended, establish more afterschool programs
> for youth (the Chiefs supported this plan over hiring more police
> officers!).
>
> Thank you for your civil response about an emotional issue.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Worthen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <LifesLearn@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
>
> > From: LifesLearn@...
> >
> > Mark-
> > If a child with a low IQ, who mentally is functioning at half his
> (her)
> > age, does a crime, where are the parents? My children of 8 and 9 are often
> by
> > my side. I would never consider a younger child to be off and alone. If I
> had
> > a child functioning lower than the normal, I would make sure that I was
> > around. My older children are above average in IQ, and that cause
> problems. I
> > make sure that until they know the extent of their doings, they are not
> alone!
> > I do see your point, though. If a child can do better with some type
> of
> > severe rehabilitation, then yes, it is worth the effort to work with the
> > child, and not pay for life on him. BUT, what if we rehab the child, set
> him
> > out into public, only for him to strike out again? Where are we now? We
> just
> > invested hundreds of thousands into this child who is again looking at a
> > judge and fearing a life term? Now what have we done? Are we to blame if
> the
> > rehab does not work?
> > With my nephew, he thinks that he can roll in sh**, and still small
> like
> > roses. He gets the court to see his background, have pity on him, and
> > basically let him go...
> > (BTW Jermaine is biracial, black and white. Mother is always in trouble
> with
> > the law for both drugs and stealing. Lived with many other members of
> family
> > and foster care. Father is in Federal Prison, I have no idea what for...
> See
> > how hard his life is? Sob, sob... NOT My grandmother lets him get away
> with
> > everything, even stealing her car) His life is not all candy and cakes,
> but
> > you make what you want out of your life... He is making nothing.
> > I still feel that if you commit the crime, you do the time!
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Stephanie
> > Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
> > protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
> > I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
> > I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
> > Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the
> lead. s.
> > ***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
> > IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
> > ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
> >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Joel Hawthorne

Women victims often have very different responses to abuse often taking it out on
themselves in destructive ways. Of course there are people who are offended
against who never offend against anyone else. Why that is the case is informative
and useful in preventing those who have been offended against becoming offenders.

I have thought that your perspective was a Christian one. I can only suggest that
you check out

http://www.forgiveness-institute.org/

Taken from that site the following:

1. What it is:

Moral
It is a response to an injustice (a moral wrong).
It is a turning to the "good" in the face of this wrongdoing.
Goodwill
Merciful restraint from pursuing resentment or revenge.
Generosity or offering good things such as: attention, time, remembrances
on
holidays.
Moral Love or contributing to the betterment of the other.
Paradoxical
It is the foregoing of resentment or revenge when the wrongdoer's actions
deserve
it and giving the gifts of mercy, generosity and love when the wrongdoer
does not
deserve them.
As we give the gift of forgiveness we ourselves are healed.
Beyond duty
A freely chosen gift (rather than a grim obligation).
The overcoming of wrongdoing with good.

2. What it is not:

Forgetting/Denial
Time passing/ignoring the effects of the wrongdoing.
Condoning
Nothing that bad happened. It was only this one time. It won't happen
again.
Excusing
The person did this because.....it wasn't really their responsibility.
Condemning
She/he deserves to know they have wronged me.
"Forgiving" with a sense of moral superiority.
Seeking Justice or Compensation
Forgiveness is not a quid pro quo deal--it doesn't demand compensation
first.

3. Important Distinction:

Forgiveness: One person's moral response to another's injustice
Reconciliation: Two parties coming together in mutual respect



LifesLearn@... wrote:

> From: LifesLearn@...
>
> Lynda!
> I stand up and applaud you! Bravo! Bravo! The man who killed that guy over
> his little girl should have gotten off on temporary SANITY! I am the victim
> of sexual abuse. I am not out there raping or coercing people to do anything.
> I have not needed rehab, I got over it! And when I did go to a counselor (for
> affirmation of ADHD) she wanted to bring it to light. Well, I am ADHD, not
> clinically acknowledged, because I told her to stick it where the sun don't
> shine! Give 'em hell!
>
> Blessings,
> Stephanie
> Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
> protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
> I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
> I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
> Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the lead. s.
> ***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
> IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
> ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Lynda

In a survey of folks in the gladiator schools, some of the reasons they
listed as why the legal system doesn't work were: plea bargains, good
time, easy time, being able to work the system. They know they aren't
going to get the max, they will have their sentences reduced and that they
are not going to do "hard" time. They also play the odds in that they know
that the "catch" rate by cops is very small.

Lynda

----------
> From: Mark Worthen <mworthen@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
> Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:47 PM
>
> From: "Mark Worthen" <mworthen@...>
>
> Stephanie,
>
> I'm not saying that kids should not be held accountable or that they need
> pity. I actually think expecting kids to be responsible and *not* feeling
> sorry for them is much more loving. My concern is with locking up
children
> for several years, providing little or no rehabilitation, and then being
> suprised when they commit more crimes upon their release.
>
> I agree there are some juveniles who do not respond to rehabilitation.
But
> it is often very difficult to identify those children after just one or
two
> offenses. The majority of adolescents who commit crimes do not go on to
> commit crimes as adults. In fact, *most* adolescent boys have committed a
> crime (not just a status offense) but they grow up to law-abiding adults.
>
> I think we need to keep asking ourselves, what is the purpose of the
> criminal justice system? Is it to decrease crime through deterrence?
Punish
> for the sake of retribution? Protect the community? Make citizens feel
safer
> even if they're not? I believe in locking up career criminals for as long
as
> possible because they commit most of the crimes. Locking them up protects
> the community. Some career criminals can be identified as adolescents
(but
> not many) so I'd include such adolescents in this category of "lock 'em
up
> to protect society."
>
> Incarceration does deter most citizens without an adult criminal history
> from committing felonies. But deternence only deters a minority of
persons
> with a criminal history. In general, deterrence is much overrated by the
> general public because we want to believe that it works for others
because
> it works for us. And gosh darn it if it doesn't work for them, lock 'em
up
> anyway for their bad attitude!
>
> I do not believe in retribution. If one of our children hits the other
> without provocation, we don't encourage the recipient of the blow to seek
> retribution from his or her sibling (self-defense, yes, retribution, no).
> Are they held accountable? Of course. (I'm talking about serious
> infractions, not typical sibling rivalry that is best dealt with in other
> ways). And, as Joel has discussed at the societal level, we try to
encourage
> our children to understand the effect of their action and allow them to
feel
> shame (note I'm not saying "shame them" but "allow them to feel shame").
If
> that's how we deal with children, why not with adults? (I'm assuming
others
> don't encourage their children to seek retribution--is that accurate?).
> Again, I'm not saying some criminals shouldn't be incarcerated. If the
> incarceration protects us, I'm all for it.
>
> Rather than focusing on incarceration, we could lower the crime rate more
> effectively if we locked up fewer drug addicts, for example, and provide
> them with treatment that's always available (it also saves us at least $5
> for every $1 we spend on treatment). Or we could, as the International
> Chiefs of Police recently recommended, establish more afterschool
programs
> for youth (the Chiefs supported this plan over hiring more police
> officers!).
>
> Thank you for your civil response about an emotional issue.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Worthen
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <LifesLearn@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
>
>
> > From: LifesLearn@...
> >
> > Mark-
> > If a child with a low IQ, who mentally is functioning at half his
> (her)
> > age, does a crime, where are the parents? My children of 8 and 9 are
often
> by
> > my side. I would never consider a younger child to be off and alone. If
I
> had
> > a child functioning lower than the normal, I would make sure that I was
> > around. My older children are above average in IQ, and that cause
> problems. I
> > make sure that until they know the extent of their doings, they are not
> alone!
> > I do see your point, though. If a child can do better with some
type
> of
> > severe rehabilitation, then yes, it is worth the effort to work with
the
> > child, and not pay for life on him. BUT, what if we rehab the child,
set
> him
> > out into public, only for him to strike out again? Where are we now? We
> just
> > invested hundreds of thousands into this child who is again looking at
a
> > judge and fearing a life term? Now what have we done? Are we to blame
if
> the
> > rehab does not work?
> > With my nephew, he thinks that he can roll in sh**, and still small
> like
> > roses. He gets the court to see his background, have pity on him, and
> > basically let him go...
> > (BTW Jermaine is biracial, black and white. Mother is always in trouble
> with
> > the law for both drugs and stealing. Lived with many other members of
> family
> > and foster care. Father is in Federal Prison, I have no idea what
for...
> See
> > how hard his life is? Sob, sob... NOT My grandmother lets him get away
> with
> > everything, even stealing her car) His life is not all candy and cakes,
> but
> > you make what you want out of your life... He is making nothing.
> > I still feel that if you commit the crime, you do the time!
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Stephanie
> > Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best
principal,
> > protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
> > I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between
sets,
> > I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
> > Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the
> lead. s.
> > ***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
> > IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
> > ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
> >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/17/99 2:28:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jhawthorne@... writes:

<< Cultivating that interior restraint is the challenge. It
is a long process best accomplished by having attached children in the
context
of home and community. >>

So true! It is our responsibility to do what we can to culivate that in
our own children and in any other children we have the opportunity to. This
is one of our most important jobs as parents and as people living in society.
This is why I have finally gotten away from the use of penalties and rewards
with my own kids. They don't do anything to help a kid internalize certain
morals and principles. They are quick ways to deal with problems but they
don't really get to the roots of the problems.

Lucy in Calif.

B & T Simpson

please unsubscribe me!
Tanya M Simpson
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-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll


>From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
>Check out the sites below for some more alternate views about the nature of
>justice. Restorative justice is one of my favorite themes. I just
discovered
>it as a "movement" about 1 1/2 years ago.
>
>http://www.cerj.org/
>
>http://www.pressenter.com/~davewest/prisons/prisons.html
>
>http://www.newmexicodrugpolicy.org/
>
>http://karen@...>./
>
>http://www.forgiveness-institute.org/
>
>http://naturalchild.com/home/
>
>Retributive justice doesn't work. Punishment is very ineffective for
deterring
>crime. Most people don't refrain from criminal activity because of fear of
>punishment.
>
>Mark Worthen wrote:
>
>> From: "Mark Worthen" <mworthen@...>
>>
>> Lynda, et al:
>>
>> <snip>
>> <So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.>
>>
>> Starting at what age, e.g., 16, 14, 12, 10? Should the IQ of the juvenile
>> matter, e.g., should a 14 year old with an IQ of 70 be tried as an adult
>> just as readily as a 14 year old with a 130 IQ? What if he or she
exhibits
>> psychotic symptoms at the time of the offense? Should children/teens who
>> have suffered severe and extensive sexual and/or physical abuse be tried
as
>> adults, and be subject to adult sentences, just as much as kids who
haven't
>> expereinced such trauma?
>>
>> I'm comfortable with 16 and 17 year olds being tried as adults (in North
>> Carolina it's automatic) but when we start going below 16, we run the
risk
>> of incarcerating juveniles for decades who might be rehabilitated,
>> contribute to society, and, if the humanistic argument doesn't sway you,
>> save us all a ton of money. In addition, some early adolescents with low
>> IQ's are functioning at the level of 6 or 7 year olds. Would we want to
put
>> a 7 year old on trial as an adult and sentence him or her to 40 years in
the
>> state prison?
>>
>> For those under-16 juveniles who pose a high risk of recidivism or who
have
>> committed heinous crimes (like the rape mentioned in a previous posting)
I
>> would rather the juvenile/family courts retain jurisdiction over these
>> defendants indefinitely with the possibility of extended incarceration,
>> intensive supervised probation, and/or mandantory treatment (depending on
>> the needs and willingness of the offender). Such a plan would retain the
>> rehabilitative emphasis of the juvenile courts but still allow for
extensive
>> incarceration for the protection of society and retribution for the
victims.
>>
>> Finally, my biggest concern about focusing on lowering the age for trial
as
>> an adult is that the most effective approach to juvenile crime,
>> *prevention*, gets lost in the discussion.
>>
>> Mark Worthen
>> Charlotte, NC
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Lynda <lurine@...>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] children charged with crimes poll
>>
>> > From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>> >
>> > We watched the trial of the 13 year old that killed a 16 yo when the 13
yo
>> > was 11. The kidlets and I had a long discussion about this which they
>> > started when they heard the attorney making all these excuses. I think
my
>> > 7 yo and 11 yo's comments about cover the subject: "Don't they know
the
>> > difference between an explanation and an excuse," and "why should
anyone
>> > get a free pass because of their age, the other kid is just as dead."
My
>> > 15 yo wasn't quite as nice about it and, in fact, had some rather hard
>> > liner things to say about some crimes committed by kids under 16 and
what
>> > should be done with the kids.
>> >
>> > Sooo, thinking perhaps it was just my kidlets that were thinking that
way,
>> > we did a poll of their friends. Seems the only folks worrying about
>> > charging kids as adults are adults. The kids all liked the old Baretta
>> > quote, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
>> >
>> > They also had an interesting take on the situation of juvenile crime,
"Ya
>> > know, kids don't expect to be punished, they know a lawyer can usually
get
>> > them off or if the lawyer doesn't, a shrink will." This from a 14 yo.
>> > And, another kid (16 yo) said that most kids know the law better than
>> > adults and know their way around the system better than adults.
>> >
>> > So, my vote is to make crime an equal opportunity punisher.
>> >
>> > Lynda
>> >
>>
>> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>--
>best wishes
>Joel
>
>For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
>http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html
>
>All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
>Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
>
>>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

Joel Hawthorne

This is another one of those "I hardly know where to begin" sort of posts. I
don't want to spend very much time doing it so I will try to cut to the chase.

People's belief systems shape the way in which they view "evidence". It is
clear to me that preconception and a refusal to even entertain the notion that
perpetrators could have been victimized will color your perceptions. Of course
with the current criminal Injustice system, lawyers will coach clients to
exaggerate, fabricate and such like to avoid punishment. This does not do away
with the fact that most people who have been abused don't have an actual
understanding of what was done to them.

I have had patients for years now who repeatedly describe horrendous stories in
neutral tones. They are not trying to impress me with anything. They think
they may have had some rough times but mostly they think they got what they
deserved. I wish I would get paid for the number of times I have been told
basically "Well yeah my dad (or fill in the blank) beat the s**t out of me but
I was really a troublemaker when I was a kid." The majority of these folks
don't think corporal punishment is a bad thing..

Your analysis of the origins of deviance seems to be missing. Are these
offenders just bad, self-indulgent malingerers who enjoy hurting people? They
don't need approval? They have good self-esteem and social skills?

What is your explanation for offending behaviours? What is recitification? Are
you referring to recidivism? Obviously punishment does not deter crime. The
US has more people locked up and under the criminal justice system than just
about any other country and yet has more crime than just about any other
industrialized country. So what is the problem?

How do you explain the correlation between social class and incarceration? Are
poor people just "bad" people who "naturally" offend? Is it a matter of
"character"? Some people are just born with bad character? Can people change?
How? Does parenting have anything to do with how children behave? If it does
then how much responsibility do parents have for the crimes of their children
if any?

You seem to support the idea of child-like justice. The harsh views of
children should not be our model for justice.

Again there are studies which are not just self-reporting surveys. There are
other ways of knowing whether or not someone has been hospitalized for having
been beaten by a parent than asking them.

Your anger, disgust, objectification and loathing of offenders comes through
clearly. I think it clouds your thinking.

I share your rage at people who hurt other people. I have enormous empathy
with people victimized by others. I have worked with offenders and victims. My
experience is that they are both fundamentally human, capable of change, and
plagued by the same problems as all of humanity. I believe there are a very
few individuals completely broken who are dangerous to everyone around them who
must be kept from harming people because they will harm people regardless of
their stated intentions. These are exceptions. There are no more of these now
than in any other time in history.

Finally your crime statistics leave a lot to be desired. We are emerging from a
history wherein slavery, murder and stealing were basic facts. Criminal
behaviour in many instances was socially sanctioned. You look to days of yore
where we were happy and there wasn't much crime. Depends on who you were.
Racial and ethnic minorities, women and children? I don't think so. You seem
to ingest the social prejudices of our society and you don't seem to have
digested them.

I just can't seem to be brief.

Please provide answers to the questions I have asked so we might continue the
discussion.

Lynda wrote:

> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>
> Having worked with the prison population, I can vouch for the "fact!" that
> most of the molestation and abuse "explanation" are a crock. big snip

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Lynda

The criminal justice system that we have does not work because it can be
bought! Mandatory sentencing and no plea bargaining with expensive lawyers
is the answer. Any criminal on the street will tell you they do not
respect the system because they KNOW they can manipulate the system. And,
of course, we have more "poor" folk in prison, there are more poor than
there are rich therefore the percentages would be in that direction even if
we didn't have a legal system that was for sale.

And, it is nice that you have beliefs such as that everyone is capable of
being fixed. The problem is that is not reality. Reality is that not only
can't a large percentage be "fixed," an even greater percentage don't think
they need to be fixed and, in fact, think the rest of the world needs some
fixing.

There is no "preconception" or "refusal to even entertain the notion." I
wore rosey tinted glasses and spouted psycho-babble about treating people
with caring so that one would get caring back. That is why I gave 40 hours
or more a week of my time to "help" those poor, abused people who had never
had a chance. I was going to make a difference because I cared in an
uncaring world full of people taking advantage of the poor and minorities.
Hah!!! I didn't take off my rosey-tinted glasses, they were knocked off
and smashed!!

Those who spout off about the system should first go to the gladiator
schools and learn first hand about the reality instead of reading books.

And, I don't need to sit around and do justification or explanations. I
know what causes some behaviors and those can be worked on. I also know
that there are people who are warped and they are born that way. No amount
of talking it to death is going to change the facts or the reality. No
making nicey nice or pretending is going to change them. You may change 1
out of 10 if you are lucky, very lucky but that does not excuse the other 9
being out on the street to terrorize the general population, many of whom
have had the exact same experiences but don't use them as an excuse for
unacceptable behaviors. The term "bad apple" is a reality.

Perhaps you can explain why 10 children can have the exact same upbringing
and only 1 will go "bad." When you can do that, then we can fix the
problem. No one has been able to explain it and that is why they fall back
on the same tired old lines of "poor," "corporal punishment," "abuse,"
"molestation," "racism," etc. etc. etc, blah, blah, blah. Even in studies
done of multiple births, in over 90% of the cases, all are not "bad."
Heaven forbid that we should have to admit that there is such a thing as a
"bad seed" and simply go on from there. The U.S. is the most excuse driven
society there is, and that probably has more to do with the numbers than
anything else.

Oh, and as a little aside, we are not emerging in the U.S. from anything.
This country was founded by violent offenders just like Australia and the
violence, government sanctioned, continues TODAY. Genocide and racism is
alive and well in the U.S. But, none of this changes the basic facts.
Although all might have human qualities, not all are humane!

Lynda
----------

> From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
> This is another one of those "I hardly know where to begin" sort of
posts. I
> don't want to spend very much time doing it so I will try to cut to the
chase.
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/99 11:46:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lurine@... writes:

<< Those who spout off about the system should first go to the gladiator
schools and learn first hand about the reality instead of reading books >>

Pleas forgive me my ignorance, what is a gladiator school?
Laura

Lynda

That is what the prisoners call prisons such as Folsom, Soledad and Q
before it became "sissified." That would also include Attica and others
that I have not visited but who have the same clientel. They are the
"baddest" of the bad. Places such as Pelican Bay have extreme cases but
don't have quite the same set up as the older prisons do.

One should also visit federally mandated county jails which ARE country
clubs complete with indoor basketball courts, weight rooms, wall to wall
carpeting, new release videos, multiple televisions, etc.

Lynda

----------
>
> From: Bonknit@...
>
> In a message dated 11/21/99 11:46:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> lurine@... writes:
>
> << Those who spout off about the system should first go to the gladiator
> schools and learn first hand about the reality instead of reading books
>>
>
> Pleas forgive me my ignorance, what is a gladiator school?
> Laura
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Tracy Oldfield

>
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>
> > And, it is nice that you have beliefs such as that everyone is capable
of
> being fixed. The problem is that is not reality. Reality is that not
only
> can't a large percentage be "fixed," an even greater percentage don't
think
> they need to be fixed and, in fact, think the rest of the world needs some
> fixing.
>

I'm interested, Lynda, if you don't believe that people can be 'fixed,' why
are you bothering to go against the flow and unschool? I'm wondering, also,
how many of those misfits you came into contact with were unschooled? That
is, I believe what was meant by abuse, the removal of free-will which
happens when a child enteres institutional school, along with the labelling,
blaming, humiliating, belittling things that people do to children because
that's how they were raised and that's how they see others being treated. I
am working damn hard to change this in myself, and that is a major reason
why I didn't want to send my children to school, after all, why go all the
effort of retraining oneself if someone else who spends more focused time
with one's children won't have those skills?

Anyway, I agree with Joel, that treating the symptoms is not much use
without treat ALL the causes. BTW, has anyone read Iain M Banks' Culture
novels? Is it your idea of Utopia?

Hoping I haven't caused offence, just curious, honest!

Tracy

Lynda

While I unschool (which goes back to the 60's), I don't find ps to be quite
the boogeyman/whipping boy that most hsers use it as. Everyone has free
will or those who went to ps wouldn't be able to become hsers. You simply
can't have it both ways.

My mother was never spanked, let alone beat yet she found it necessary to
use wooden men's suit hangers on us girls. My children are not spanked,
let alone beat. Free will, individual's making choices.

It is a proven fact that alcoholics can only be "fixed" if they choose to
be fixed. They must acknowledge that they have a problem but, they will
always be just one drink away from being an alcoholic. They are never
"cured."

I think society is too ready to look for an excuse, a blame--spanking did
it, ps did it, Twinkies did it. Sorry, I'm not buying it or everyone who
was spanked, who went to ps or who ate Twinkies would be a violent
criminal. These folks are individuals who have made a choice. Not the
choice you or I have made. They are a very small % of the population and a
very small % of the identified by shrinks population as being prime for
violence. Therefore, it is choose.

Honest criminals (now there's an oxymoron) will tell you that they don't
want to change. Most of them that do "groups" in prison do it to get their
sentence reduced, not to be "cured" because they don't honestly think they
have a problem. They are great blamers.

Why do I unschool? Because I am a rebel that believes she can do a better
job than the schools, hates dealing with stoooopid people (those who can't
think outside the box) and will probably raise little rebels <g> This has
absolutely nothing to do with thinking "bad" people can't be fixed. One
has absolutely nothing to do with the other. If I thought ps was the
culprit, I might have removed the kidlets for that reason. I don't think
ps is the culprit. It may add to the problem, but I don't think it has
created the problem.

Lynda, who is usually clear as mud and is definately not offended by
curiosity and loves discussions :-}

----------

> I'm interested, Lynda, if you don't believe that people can be 'fixed,'
why
> are you bothering to go against the flow and unschool? I'm wondering,
also,
> how many of those misfits you came into contact with were unschooled?
That
> is, I believe what was meant by abuse, the removal of free-will which
> happens when a child enteres institutional school, along with the
labelling,
> blaming, humiliating, belittling things that people do to children
because
> that's how they were raised and that's how they see others being treated.
I
> am working damn hard to change this in myself, and that is a major reason
> why I didn't want to send my children to school, after all, why go all
the
> effort of retraining oneself if someone else who spends more focused time
> with one's children won't have those skills?
>
> Anyway, I agree with Joel, that treating the symptoms is not much use
> without treat ALL the causes. BTW, has anyone read Iain M Banks' Culture
> novels? Is it your idea of Utopia?
>
> Hoping I haven't caused offence, just curious, honest!
>
> Tracy
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Joel Hawthorne

Lynda, you are talking too fast. I am still working on my last response to
your other posts....lol. I mention in that response that I find myself in
considerable agreement with much of your view however we do part company on
some issues.

I find your thinking "inside the box" on issues of justice, behaviour, crime
and punishment. I think your views are shared by most people. But it could be
me in my own box.

There is a great little, short book called "How People Change" by Alan
Wheelis. It is a great discussion of the dynamics between personal
responsibility and "blame". People are responsible for their actions. There
certainly is such a thing as "diminished capacity". When I drank, I did things
that I wouldn't have done sober. I still chose to drink and so if my judgment
was impaired I had certainly chosen to diminish it by drinking. I also did
things stone cold sober that I wish I hadn't done.

I wish you would read Alice Miller and let me know what you think.

I am really convinced that there is a major internal "psychological" barrier to
looking at these issues dispassionately which Alice Miller expands upon. It
has to with "childish" investment in parental approval.

Your description of your mother's behaviour (from my point of view) is one of
abuse ...clear but of course not simple.

Yes people make choices. People's choices are shaped by their previous
experience. It is very difficult to make choices about which you have limited
or no experience. People struggle within the limitations of their experience.
Effective "therapy" is in fact a little world of alternate experience which
allows people to have experiences that they would never "choose" because those
experiences are outside their "box" of choices.

I was adopted at five and remember much of my earlier childhood. For me the
experience was a kind of inoculation against taking anything at face value. It
made me suspicious, anxious perhaps even paranoid. These qualities are two
edged swords. I am perceptive in a way I wouldn't have been and yet limited in
personal relationships, in ways which are a constant struggle.

I clearly see the connection between my "then" and my "now". I see the
challenge of change. It is constant struggle, one which I would often rather
not have. I am painfully aware that choice is mine.

The question of why people with similar experiences make different choices is
of course central to this discussion. I believe that people who make
constructive choices in spite of their painful experiences have had (to borrow
from Alice Miller) "witnesses" to what was done to them. People who choose
"destructive" roads have not had "witnesses". this is at least one piece of
the puzzle.

I am really glad that (thus far) this discussion (this time) has not resulted
in anyone going off in a snit. I find that this conversation gets people
really excited and often "mad as hell".

Thanks for your opinions I am refining my thinking as a result. It is much
appreciated.

Lynda wrote:

> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>
> While I unschool (which goes back to the 60's), I don't find ps to be quite
> the boogeyman/whipping boy that most hsers use it as. Everyone has free
> will or those who <snip> definately not offended by
> curiosity and loves discussions :-}

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
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Lisa Bugg

>
> Yes people make choices. People's choices are shaped by their previous
> experience. It is very difficult to make choices about which you have
limited
> or no experience. People struggle within the limitations of their
experience.
> Effective "therapy" is in fact a little world of alternate experience
which
> allows people to have experiences that they would never "choose" because
those
> experiences are outside their "box" of choices.


Do not people also struggle within the limitations of their inexperience?
And therapy would allow us to become experienced at analyzing the choices we
didn't/couldn't make?
>


> The question of why people with similar experiences make different choices
is
> of course central to this discussion. I believe that people who make
> constructive choices in spite of their painful experiences have had (to
borrow
> from Alice Miller) "witnesses" to what was done to them. People who
choose
> "destructive" roads have not had "witnesses". this is at least one piece
of
> the puzzle.

I have read only one Alice Miller book, a compendium of stories. I think I
understand the use of the word *witness* here, but would love for you to
explain more anyway.

My childhood was pretty rotten....when went over the edge of rotten and into
abuse it was becuase of who *I* am/was. Another child might not have had a
second thought about things my parents said or did. I am a better parent
to three of my children than I am to the 4th. I struggle to parent that 4th
child.

> I am really glad that (thus far) this discussion (this time) has not
resulted
> in anyone going off in a snit. I find that this conversation gets people
> really excited and often "mad as hell".


Ya, know, this list has never had a long lived snit. We all seem hungry for
more indepth discussions. Some of us have unschooled for a long time and we
need to analyze where we've been and where we're going. The face of
homeschooling has changed more than once in the last 20 years and the next 5
are going to see it change yet again. Frankly, we now have some very clear
insights that the rest of the culture should take a long hard look
at......is they'll sit still long enough. <g>

LisaKK

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/99 8:46:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lurine@... writes:

<< Perhaps you can explain why 10 children can have the exact same upbringing
and only 1 will go "bad." >>

How could 10 children have the exact same upbringing? There are
differences in every person's life and these differences can have important
effects, negative or postive. I don't know if there truly are "bad seeds"
but if there are, they have to account for a very small percentage of people
in U.S. prisons. If some people are actually "born bad," then the percentage
of those people would be the same world wide and we would have about the same
percentage of our people in prison as the Netherlands does or Switzerland
does, for example. Yet we all know that the U.S. has a far higher percentage
of its people in prison than those countries do, as well as a lot more
violence and a lot more poverty. I think common sense tells us that poverty
can breed resentment and a lack of faith in the system, which can in turn
contribute to a person giving up and getting involved in various criminal
activities.
You obviously have some first hand experiences which have shaped your
feelings about this. I understand how you can feel like it's easy for others
to give opinions when they don't deal with prisoners on a regular basis.
However, there are others who also have first hand experience with people who
have gone to prison or been involved in criminal activity and our
observations are at least just as valid as yours. Both sides may be somewhat
colored by emotion, of course.
I have seen people I've known since they were children lose faith in our
justice system. I've seen schools and courts who are quick to throw
teenagers away for minor things that they don't throw other teens away for.
And I've seen how violent cultures affect kids. I've lived in Europe and
seen a big difference. It has been proven by results that a humane way of
treating all people in a country helps the people in that country to, in
turn, be more humane toward one another.
From an individual standpoint, I believe it helps a person to hold
him/her responsible for his/her behavior. It doesn't do a person a lot of
good to feed him a list of excuses for why he can't do the right thing.
However, from a wider, sociological perspective, we had BETTER look for the
contributing factors to the violence in this society or we have little hope
of improving things. You yourself obviously DO feel that there are
contributing factors and not just "bad seeds" because you point to our
judicial system yourself in saying that the criminals aren't afraid. So we
do agree that a society can function in a way that tends to bring out better
in its people or worse. We just disagree on what some of the contributing
factors are. Yet I believe that you probably do feel that the way a person
is raised does make a tremendous difference. You've chosen to homeschool
your child/children, so you must feel that it will make a difference for them.
What a person's upbringing is on paper or in brief description doesn't
even come close to knowing what it really was. We can say one person is
Hispanic, raised in East L.A. by a single mom on welfare and so was another
and they are both the same age. Maybe they lived in the same apartments.
Does that even begin to take in what their individual experiences were, what
people they had in their lives, how they were treated, what good or horrible
things happened to them, etc.? Surely we all know that a person's
experiences have a major impact on what kind of person they become.

Lucy in Calif.

Joel Hawthorne

Great post. I second the motion.

LASaliger@... wrote:

> From: LASaliger@...
>
> In a message dated 11/21/99 8:46:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> lurine@... writes:
>
> << Perhaps you can explain why 10 children can have the exact same upbringing
> and only 1 will go "bad." >>
>
> How could 10 children have the exact same upbringing? There are
> differences in every person's life and these differences can have important
> effects, negative or postive. I don't know if there truly are "bad seeds"
> but if there are, they have to account for a very small percentage of people
> in U.S. prisons. If some people are actually "born bad," then the percentage
> of those people would be the same world wide and we would have about the same
> percentage of our people in prison as the Netherlands does or Switzerland
> does, for example. Yet we all know that the U.S. has a far higher percentage
> of its people in prison than those countries do, as well as a lot more
> violence and a lot more poverty. I think common sense tells us that poverty
> can breed resentment and a lack of faith in the system, which can in turn
> contribute to a person giving up and getting involved in various criminal
> activities.
> You obviously have some first hand experiences which have shaped your
> feelings about this. I understand how you can feel like it's easy for others
> to give opinions when they don't deal with prisoners on a regular basis.
> However, there are others who also have first hand experience with people who
> have gone to prison or been involved in criminal activity and our
> observations are at least just as valid as yours. Both sides may be somewhat
> colored by emotion, of course.
> I have seen people I've known since they were children lose faith in our
> justice system. I've seen schools and courts who are quick to throw
> teenagers away for minor things that they don't throw other teens away for.
> And I've seen how violent cultures affect kids. I've lived in Europe and
> seen a big difference. It has been proven by results that a humane way of
> treating all people in a country helps the people in that country to, in
> turn, be more humane toward one another.
> From an individual standpoint, I believe it helps a person to hold
> him/her responsible for his/her behavior. It doesn't do a person a lot of
> good to feed him a list of excuses for why he can't do the right thing.
> However, from a wider, sociological perspective, we had BETTER look for the
> contributing factors to the violence in this society or we have little hope
> of improving things. You yourself obviously DO feel that there are
> contributing factors and not just "bad seeds" because you point to our
> judicial system yourself in saying that the criminals aren't afraid. So we
> do agree that a society can function in a way that tends to bring out better
> in its people or worse. We just disagree on what some of the contributing
> factors are. Yet I believe that you probably do feel that the way a person
> is raised does make a tremendous difference. You've chosen to homeschool
> your child/children, so you must feel that it will make a difference for them.
> What a person's upbringing is on paper or in brief description doesn't
> even come close to knowing what it really was. We can say one person is
> Hispanic, raised in East L.A. by a single mom on welfare and so was another
> and they are both the same age. Maybe they lived in the same apartments.
> Does that even begin to take in what their individual experiences were, what
> people they had in their lives, how they were treated, what good or horrible
> things happened to them, etc.? Surely we all know that a person's
> experiences have a major impact on what kind of person they become.
>
> Lucy in Calif.

best wishes
Joel

For a wonderful gift possibility and to support a great cause check out:
http://www.naturalchild.com/calendar_pictures.html

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/