RE: the role of frustration
[email protected]
***I have heard the term 'stealing a person's legs' used for someone who does
things for others when they are capable of doing it for themselves. Of
course being able to judge capability is the key.***
I've always thought that idea was nonsensical. In our family we all do things for each other that we are capable of doing for ourselves. I usually fold everyone's laundry, despite the fact that 4 out of 5 of us are capable of folding our own. My husband made dinner for me last night. If my kids are coming down the stairs they might bring me down something I asked for. Whoever's making tea will offer to make someone else some too.
Mabye that phrase "stealing a person's legs" only applies to and adult doing things for children, but I think that would be reflective of a society that sees children as lesser beings.
Patti
things for others when they are capable of doing it for themselves. Of
course being able to judge capability is the key.***
I've always thought that idea was nonsensical. In our family we all do things for each other that we are capable of doing for ourselves. I usually fold everyone's laundry, despite the fact that 4 out of 5 of us are capable of folding our own. My husband made dinner for me last night. If my kids are coming down the stairs they might bring me down something I asked for. Whoever's making tea will offer to make someone else some too.
Mabye that phrase "stealing a person's legs" only applies to and adult doing things for children, but I think that would be reflective of a society that sees children as lesser beings.
Patti
Kelli Traaseth
Don't you think that there is a difference between controlling someone, doing it for them, and helping someone with something when they ask?
For example when my son is bossing my daughter on the PS2, she really gets angry,frustrated. And I do have to talk with them about it. But if she asks for help he will gladly help and that's what I hope he can differentiate between. That's what I have had to differentiate between also in parenting.
Its one thing being a controller, its another being kind or loving or generous.
Kelli
patti.schmidt2@... wrote:***I have heard the term 'stealing a person's legs' used for someone who does
things for others when they are capable of doing it for themselves. Of
course being able to judge capability is the key.***
I've always thought that idea was nonsensical. In our family we all do things for each other that we are capable of doing for ourselves. I usually fold everyone's laundry, despite the fact that 4 out of 5 of us are capable of folding our own. My husband made dinner for me last night. If my kids are coming down the stairs they might bring me down something I asked for. Whoever's making tea will offer to make someone else some too.
Mabye that phrase "stealing a person's legs" only applies to and adult doing things for children, but I think that would be reflective of a society that sees children as lesser beings.
Patti
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For example when my son is bossing my daughter on the PS2, she really gets angry,frustrated. And I do have to talk with them about it. But if she asks for help he will gladly help and that's what I hope he can differentiate between. That's what I have had to differentiate between also in parenting.
Its one thing being a controller, its another being kind or loving or generous.
Kelli
patti.schmidt2@... wrote:***I have heard the term 'stealing a person's legs' used for someone who does
things for others when they are capable of doing it for themselves. Of
course being able to judge capability is the key.***
I've always thought that idea was nonsensical. In our family we all do things for each other that we are capable of doing for ourselves. I usually fold everyone's laundry, despite the fact that 4 out of 5 of us are capable of folding our own. My husband made dinner for me last night. If my kids are coming down the stairs they might bring me down something I asked for. Whoever's making tea will offer to make someone else some too.
Mabye that phrase "stealing a person's legs" only applies to and adult doing things for children, but I think that would be reflective of a society that sees children as lesser beings.
Patti
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/8/02 1:09:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
When I speak about my Mother being good at frustrating children I mean she
is an artist. She has the art of working with young children and being able
to help them just enough when they need help but not do everything for them.
She is wonderful at creating an environment where they naturally want to do
things like making calendar chains or alphabet pictures. She is perfect at
standing back and waiting for them to work stuff out on their own. She
understands the fine line between the frustration that is moving the child
to attempt new things and the frustration where they give up. >>
What you see as frustration, I view as fascination.
It is fascination with an object or concept that makes learning possible, not
frustration. When frustration enters in, learning slows or stops. I think
seeing it as frustration is a very strange concept.
When a person is saying "Wow, HOW does that work?" a learning opportunity has
come around. Or "HOW are you doing that?"
There is a determination that can come, there are frustrating moments that
can happen, it is my job to help my kids gain skills to deal with those
naturally frustrating moments, not introduce them.
Allowing children the space to figure things out for themselve is simply
respect. Being available to help if needed, but not jumping in and doing it
for them prevents frustration actually.
Here is the dictionary term to avoid further confusion:
1. To prevent from accimplishing a purpose or fulfilling a desire: thwart.
Hmmmm? Doesn't sound like what your Mom did at all.
2. Feelings of dissatisfaction caused by an inability to achieve personal
fulfillment.
Ok, so we can feel this while trying to learn something difficult. It happens
naturally, no need for anyone to try and make it happen. And again, something
that adults should help a child prevent and show them ways to deal with.
Frustrate: 3. to prevent the accomplishment or development of: nullify.
Can you see where your choice of words is causing problems?
I don't see what your mother did as frustrating them at all. I see letting
people do what they can as respectful. If she stopped them from accomplishing
what they wanted to, THAT would be frustration.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
When I speak about my Mother being good at frustrating children I mean she
is an artist. She has the art of working with young children and being able
to help them just enough when they need help but not do everything for them.
She is wonderful at creating an environment where they naturally want to do
things like making calendar chains or alphabet pictures. She is perfect at
standing back and waiting for them to work stuff out on their own. She
understands the fine line between the frustration that is moving the child
to attempt new things and the frustration where they give up. >>
What you see as frustration, I view as fascination.
It is fascination with an object or concept that makes learning possible, not
frustration. When frustration enters in, learning slows or stops. I think
seeing it as frustration is a very strange concept.
When a person is saying "Wow, HOW does that work?" a learning opportunity has
come around. Or "HOW are you doing that?"
There is a determination that can come, there are frustrating moments that
can happen, it is my job to help my kids gain skills to deal with those
naturally frustrating moments, not introduce them.
Allowing children the space to figure things out for themselve is simply
respect. Being available to help if needed, but not jumping in and doing it
for them prevents frustration actually.
Here is the dictionary term to avoid further confusion:
1. To prevent from accimplishing a purpose or fulfilling a desire: thwart.
Hmmmm? Doesn't sound like what your Mom did at all.
2. Feelings of dissatisfaction caused by an inability to achieve personal
fulfillment.
Ok, so we can feel this while trying to learn something difficult. It happens
naturally, no need for anyone to try and make it happen. And again, something
that adults should help a child prevent and show them ways to deal with.
Frustrate: 3. to prevent the accomplishment or development of: nullify.
Can you see where your choice of words is causing problems?
I don't see what your mother did as frustrating them at all. I see letting
people do what they can as respectful. If she stopped them from accomplishing
what they wanted to, THAT would be frustration.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/8/02 1:09:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I did deliberately mis-understand Sandra's use of the word frustration
because I understand the word in many different contexts and I assumed that
this was a list that was well-versed in these concepts >>
Why would you deliberately try to misunderstand? Or am I now misunderstanding
your meaning again?
Understanding a word in different contexts is hugely different from using it
in a way opposite from how the dictionary defines it.
A list well-versed in the misuse of words? No, it isn't that. I'm not sure
what you mean. I have taken child development courses, read numerous books on
the topic and gentle parenting courses. No where have I read about the role
of frustration in helping people learn.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I did deliberately mis-understand Sandra's use of the word frustration
because I understand the word in many different contexts and I assumed that
this was a list that was well-versed in these concepts >>
Why would you deliberately try to misunderstand? Or am I now misunderstanding
your meaning again?
Understanding a word in different contexts is hugely different from using it
in a way opposite from how the dictionary defines it.
A list well-versed in the misuse of words? No, it isn't that. I'm not sure
what you mean. I have taken child development courses, read numerous books on
the topic and gentle parenting courses. No where have I read about the role
of frustration in helping people learn.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/8/02 2:37:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Do *you* enjoy being frustrated and angry? If I needed to lift something
heavy and couldn't quite manage it, should my much stronger husband stand by
and watch me- mabye even calmly tell me that frustration isn't something to
avoid? Should he only help me if I get really really upset instead of just a
little bit upset? >>
Patti's questions here reminded me of last night.
I was shopping with dh for groceries for the upcoming road trip to the
conference. I was reaching up high to try and pull out a large pack of juice
boxes from the top shelf, I was getting frustrated because my fingers kept
slipping off but I didn't ask for help or act angry.
Dh saw me struggling to get them down and says "here, let me get that for
you". Not because he didn't think I would eventually get them, but he could
do it easier. It was a kind gesture.
Should he just have stood there and watched me struggle? Until I asked for
help? Or should he offer it kindly, and be willing to back off if I said "No
thanks, I want to do it myself".
I think the kind thing when you see someone getting frustrated or struggling
is to offer help. Maybe they really want to do it themselves, then they'll
tell you.
But I felt a lot of happiness that dh offered to help and didn't wait for me
to keep struggling.
Gestures of kindness.
How are you going to discern when your child really needs help if you think
you can tell without asking? You are claiming to know a real cry from a not
needy one. How? You can't feel what that person is feeling. I assume that my
child needs something when they cry.
I assume they need some assistance when frustrated.
If I've assumed wrong, there is no harm done because they will let me know
that I am not needed at that particular point.
But if I withhold my help, they will learn that I'm not to be trusted.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Do *you* enjoy being frustrated and angry? If I needed to lift something
heavy and couldn't quite manage it, should my much stronger husband stand by
and watch me- mabye even calmly tell me that frustration isn't something to
avoid? Should he only help me if I get really really upset instead of just a
little bit upset? >>
Patti's questions here reminded me of last night.
I was shopping with dh for groceries for the upcoming road trip to the
conference. I was reaching up high to try and pull out a large pack of juice
boxes from the top shelf, I was getting frustrated because my fingers kept
slipping off but I didn't ask for help or act angry.
Dh saw me struggling to get them down and says "here, let me get that for
you". Not because he didn't think I would eventually get them, but he could
do it easier. It was a kind gesture.
Should he just have stood there and watched me struggle? Until I asked for
help? Or should he offer it kindly, and be willing to back off if I said "No
thanks, I want to do it myself".
I think the kind thing when you see someone getting frustrated or struggling
is to offer help. Maybe they really want to do it themselves, then they'll
tell you.
But I felt a lot of happiness that dh offered to help and didn't wait for me
to keep struggling.
Gestures of kindness.
How are you going to discern when your child really needs help if you think
you can tell without asking? You are claiming to know a real cry from a not
needy one. How? You can't feel what that person is feeling. I assume that my
child needs something when they cry.
I assume they need some assistance when frustrated.
If I've assumed wrong, there is no harm done because they will let me know
that I am not needed at that particular point.
But if I withhold my help, they will learn that I'm not to be trusted.
Ren
[email protected]
Don't you think that there is a difference between controlling someone, doing
it for them, and helping someone with something when they ask?
***For example when my son is bossing my daughter on the PS2, she really gets
angry,frustrated. And I do have to talk with them about it. But if she asks
for help he will gladly help and that's what I hope he can differentiate
between. That's what I have had to differentiate between also in parenting.
Its one thing being a controller, its another being kind or loving or generous.***
I agree. When I wrote my post I wasn't thinking of someone who doesn't *want* help... like if my toddler was saying "I'll do it myself" about putting his clothes on I certainly wouldn't insist on helping him. But neither would I refuse help if he asked for it just because I knew he was capable of doing without it. And I *certainly* wouldn't expect him to struggle with something he *wasn't* fully capable of yet just because I had an erroneous belief that if he wasn't frustrated he'd never learn it.
Patti
it for them, and helping someone with something when they ask?
***For example when my son is bossing my daughter on the PS2, she really gets
angry,frustrated. And I do have to talk with them about it. But if she asks
for help he will gladly help and that's what I hope he can differentiate
between. That's what I have had to differentiate between also in parenting.
Its one thing being a controller, its another being kind or loving or generous.***
I agree. When I wrote my post I wasn't thinking of someone who doesn't *want* help... like if my toddler was saying "I'll do it myself" about putting his clothes on I certainly wouldn't insist on helping him. But neither would I refuse help if he asked for it just because I knew he was capable of doing without it. And I *certainly* wouldn't expect him to struggle with something he *wasn't* fully capable of yet just because I had an erroneous belief that if he wasn't frustrated he'd never learn it.
Patti
Mary Bianco
>From: starsuncloud@...<<It was a kind gesture.
Should he just have stood there and watched me struggle? Until I asked for
help? Or should he offer it kindly, and be willing to back off if I said "No
thanks, I want to do it myself". I think the kind thing when you see someone
getting frustrated or struggling is to offer help. Maybe they really want to
do it themselves, then they'll tell you.
But I felt a lot of happiness that dh offered to help and didn't wait for me
to keep struggling. Gestures of kindness.
How are you going to discern when your child really needs help if you think
you can tell without asking? You are claiming to know a real cry from a not
needy one. How? You can't feel what that person is feeling. I assume that my
child needs something when they cry. I assume they need some assistance when
frustrated. If I've assumed wrong, there is no harm done because they will
let me know that I am not needed at that particular point.But if I withhold
my help, they will learn that I'm not to be trusted.>>
I've been reading these posts and have to agree with Ren's line of thinking.
(don't get a big head Ren!) I think we all at some time or another feel
frustration. I don't think it feels good or is absolutely necessary for us
to learn something. I think it is important when one sees it to offer any
help or suggestions and like Ren said, no when to back off is that person
wants to do it themselves. My daughter will take an offer of help readily,
my son wants to be left to his own devices. With him, I don't see it as
frustration as much as determination. I always offer, and once in awhile he
will let me suggest or help. That may ver well be when he IS getting
frustrated.
And as far as a baby crying, I think all cries need to be attended to. A
little squirming or fussing when a baby is trying to settle down is one
thing, as someone else mentioned. Crying is another. We always had a saying
around here when the kids were little. "No crying babies in this house."
That meant we did whatever we could to comfort to make the crying go away.
It worked and our kids are better because of it. I don't how many times I
had been reprimanded by 'well meaning' people? who said to them let them cry
it out. How terrrible.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
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Kelli Traaseth
Exactly, Patti, I agree with all you said in your post.
Kelli
patti.schmidt2@... wrote:Don't you think that there is a difference between controlling someone, doing
it for them, and helping someone with something when they ask?
***For example when my son is bossing my daughter on the PS2, she really gets
angry,frustrated. And I do have to talk with them about it. But if she asks
for help he will gladly help and that's what I hope he can differentiate
between. That's what I have had to differentiate between also in parenting.
Its one thing being a controller, its another being kind or loving or generous.***
I agree. When I wrote my post I wasn't thinking of someone who doesn't *want* help... like if my toddler was saying "I'll do it myself" about putting his clothes on I certainly wouldn't insist on helping him. But neither would I refuse help if he asked for it just because I knew he was capable of doing without it. And I *certainly* wouldn't expect him to struggle with something he *wasn't* fully capable of yet just because I had an erroneous belief that if he wasn't frustrated he'd never learn it.
Patti
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli
patti.schmidt2@... wrote:Don't you think that there is a difference between controlling someone, doing
it for them, and helping someone with something when they ask?
***For example when my son is bossing my daughter on the PS2, she really gets
angry,frustrated. And I do have to talk with them about it. But if she asks
for help he will gladly help and that's what I hope he can differentiate
between. That's what I have had to differentiate between also in parenting.
Its one thing being a controller, its another being kind or loving or generous.***
I agree. When I wrote my post I wasn't thinking of someone who doesn't *want* help... like if my toddler was saying "I'll do it myself" about putting his clothes on I certainly wouldn't insist on helping him. But neither would I refuse help if he asked for it just because I knew he was capable of doing without it. And I *certainly* wouldn't expect him to struggle with something he *wasn't* fully capable of yet just because I had an erroneous belief that if he wasn't frustrated he'd never learn it.
Patti
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/8/02 7:23:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I've been reading these posts and have to agree with Ren's line of
thinking.
(don't get a big head Ren!) >>
Too late.
lol
Actually, for every person that says "right on" there is usually enough
saying "what the heck is wrong with you " to prevent any large headedness.
I've been doing the email lists and message board for 2 1/2 years (minus a
six month break with no computer) so one gets used to both.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I've been reading these posts and have to agree with Ren's line of
thinking.
(don't get a big head Ren!) >>
Too late.
lol
Actually, for every person that says "right on" there is usually enough
saying "what the heck is wrong with you " to prevent any large headedness.
I've been doing the email lists and message board for 2 1/2 years (minus a
six month break with no computer) so one gets used to both.
Ren
Liz Reid and Errol Strelnikoff
Sometimes when my children do ask for my help on something that I suspect
they can already do for themselves, I don't rush to get there, but perhaps I
finish some task first and sometimes I find they have finished it by
themselves. Then they feel even happier because they finished it and they
did it on their own.
As for the example of the husband watching the wife lift something heavy, or
whatever it was, unlike our children we tend to get weaker with the passage
of time, so what may be a kindness in one situation could be cruel in
another. Like the story of the candle and the pot of soup.
I don't think that the kids feel manipulated or controlled. I think that
they just think I am kinda slow. I have been trying to think of examples of
how I frustrate and this makes it seem more pre-meditative than it is. I
often notice that I do these kinds of things when I see other parents doing
things where I know I would have hung back. My kids are probably used to me
hanging back and know that that is just how I am. I guess they are used to
having such a frustrating Mother and don't even know they have one.
As for the dictionary definition (not that a dictionary is the only arbiter
of meaning), I thougth number two was closest to how I am using the word.
What could be more motivating in a healthy person than feeling dissatisfied
with one's inability to achieve personal fulfillment? If you are satisfied
that you have already achieved fulfillment then what is there left to learn?
Liz
they can already do for themselves, I don't rush to get there, but perhaps I
finish some task first and sometimes I find they have finished it by
themselves. Then they feel even happier because they finished it and they
did it on their own.
As for the example of the husband watching the wife lift something heavy, or
whatever it was, unlike our children we tend to get weaker with the passage
of time, so what may be a kindness in one situation could be cruel in
another. Like the story of the candle and the pot of soup.
I don't think that the kids feel manipulated or controlled. I think that
they just think I am kinda slow. I have been trying to think of examples of
how I frustrate and this makes it seem more pre-meditative than it is. I
often notice that I do these kinds of things when I see other parents doing
things where I know I would have hung back. My kids are probably used to me
hanging back and know that that is just how I am. I guess they are used to
having such a frustrating Mother and don't even know they have one.
As for the dictionary definition (not that a dictionary is the only arbiter
of meaning), I thougth number two was closest to how I am using the word.
What could be more motivating in a healthy person than feeling dissatisfied
with one's inability to achieve personal fulfillment? If you are satisfied
that you have already achieved fulfillment then what is there left to learn?
Liz
Pam Hartley
----------
Life will offer all kinds of natural frustrations. Sometimes, you really
WILL just be too busy with something that you actually don't want to drop
that moment, and can with honesty say, "I will, as soon as I can, but I'm
doing this right now and I really want to finish," instead of behaving
dishonestly/pretending "for their own good".
Pam "yes, she's trying to keep up again" Hartley
pamhartley@...
>From: [email protected]Do you really think this is necessary?
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2460
>Date: Tue, Oct 8, 2002, 10:10 PM
>
> Sometimes when my children do ask for my help on something that I suspect
> they can already do for themselves, I don't rush to get there, but perhaps I
> finish some task first and sometimes I find they have finished it by
> themselves. Then they feel even happier because they finished it and they
> did it on their own.
Life will offer all kinds of natural frustrations. Sometimes, you really
WILL just be too busy with something that you actually don't want to drop
that moment, and can with honesty say, "I will, as soon as I can, but I'm
doing this right now and I really want to finish," instead of behaving
dishonestly/pretending "for their own good".
Pam "yes, she's trying to keep up again" Hartley
pamhartley@...
Liz Reid and Errol Strelnikoff
> Do you really think this is necessary?I do it from instinct. We all have a certain level of control over our
>
> Life will offer all kinds of natural frustrations. Sometimes, you really
> WILL just be too busy with something that you actually don't want to drop
> that moment, and can with honesty say, "I will, as soon as I can, but I'm
> doing this right now and I really want to finish," instead of behaving
> dishonestly/pretending "for their own good".
children. We have dis-proportionate impact on their environment, we are the
providers of resources. Our skills are the beginning of what we can pass on
to our children. We are always to a certain extent actively involved with
our kids. We are never truly nuetral. Even the parent who responds
immediately to a request for help has an agenda.
If an adult needed my help they probably would wait until they saw that I
had finished the dishes to ask. Children see the world differently and may
ask for help at any time. So perhaps the immediate response is the
premeditated one. Perhaps because a parent has been influenced by
discussion groups where people say things like, 'oh making children wait
when you could help immediately is cruel and dishonest'. So they consiously
try and respond immediately. How natural is that? Who knows what is
natural.
I think I have certain advantages over others though. My development since
birth has been for the most part self-regulated. My parents did not force
me to learn things on schedule, we played most of the time and spent perhaps
an hour per month on what people would call 'academic' persuits. As
children our parents trusted that our instincts were good. Now as an adult
I still think my instincts are pretty sound. That is the whole point of
unschooling, the child's natural intelligence remains in place rather than
crushing it out of them with brainwashing techniques. Of course this
doesn't make me a perfect mother. I just approach things differently.
Liz
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/9/02 9:37:38 AM, lizanderrol@... writes:
<< Even the parent who responds
immediately to a request for help has an agenda. >>
ESPECIALLY those.
-=-How natural is that? Who knows what is natural.-=-
Anthropologists have a much better view of it than religion-based advisors
and than educational researchers.
When a baby cries and a mother picks it up, she is acting on instinct.
When a baby cries and she looks at the clock, that's not as natural.
Sandra
<< Even the parent who responds
immediately to a request for help has an agenda. >>
ESPECIALLY those.
-=-How natural is that? Who knows what is natural.-=-
Anthropologists have a much better view of it than religion-based advisors
and than educational researchers.
When a baby cries and a mother picks it up, she is acting on instinct.
When a baby cries and she looks at the clock, that's not as natural.
Sandra
Liz Reid and Errol Strelnikoff
As for the idea that learning is interest driven. I just can't picture a
baby sitting back and saying 'Hey, that thing they do with two legs looks
interesting. Maybe I will try and learn it too because I am interested in
it.'
No, I think the baby is interested in getting that ball into her mouth and
then she finds that her body is not getting over to it so she gets
frustrated and kicks her legs and then figures out how to crawl. And when
crawling becomes frustrating because she can't go fast enough then, after
enough frustration, she learns how to walk.
I don't think that children learn to talk because they are interested in
talking. I think that they find that not being able to talk can be a
frustrating experience so they figure it out.
When people first begin to learn about homeschooling they do so not because
they are interested in homeschooling but because the alternatives to
homeschooling are so frustratingly poor.
Even the idea that people learn because they are passionate about something
is putting the cart before the horse, they become passionate about what they
have already learnt, it isn't passion that leads them to seek further but
frustration that what they already know isn't enough.
Of course I am being ridiculous. Passion, interest and frustration all play
a role in learning. I am just exagerating one side to make a point.
Liz
baby sitting back and saying 'Hey, that thing they do with two legs looks
interesting. Maybe I will try and learn it too because I am interested in
it.'
No, I think the baby is interested in getting that ball into her mouth and
then she finds that her body is not getting over to it so she gets
frustrated and kicks her legs and then figures out how to crawl. And when
crawling becomes frustrating because she can't go fast enough then, after
enough frustration, she learns how to walk.
I don't think that children learn to talk because they are interested in
talking. I think that they find that not being able to talk can be a
frustrating experience so they figure it out.
When people first begin to learn about homeschooling they do so not because
they are interested in homeschooling but because the alternatives to
homeschooling are so frustratingly poor.
Even the idea that people learn because they are passionate about something
is putting the cart before the horse, they become passionate about what they
have already learnt, it isn't passion that leads them to seek further but
frustration that what they already know isn't enough.
Of course I am being ridiculous. Passion, interest and frustration all play
a role in learning. I am just exagerating one side to make a point.
Liz
Pam Hartley
----------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2464
Date: Wed, Oct 9, 2002, 9:49 AM
Even the parent who responds
immediately to a request for help has an agenda.
----------
My "agenda" in responding as immediately as I reasonably can is that I enjoy
living in a family of people who want to help each other achieve happiness
and contentment.
My "reward" for this is two children who, if I ask for help, almost always
respond immediately to my request (and on those occasions when they do not,
it's for a good reason, such as being right in the middle of something
important to them to continue with).
----------
If an adult needed my help they probably would wait until they saw that I
had finished the dishes to ask.
----------
There are degrees to things. If my husband is spouting blood from a major
artery, I don't say, "Yes, yes, I'll help you when I'm done with the
dishes." If he wants me to come look at a web page, he'll say, "When you
have a chance, will you come look at this?" My language to my daughters when
they say "Will you make me some chocolate milk?" and I'm right in the middle
of something, reflects this kind of asking, "I'm right in the middle of the
dishes, can you wait for a few minutes while I finish?" (And if their answer
is no, they can't wait, then the dishes can.)
This has resulted in two children, age 7 and 5-yesterday, who very often now
and will more and more as time goes on, ask for non-urgent things by saying,
"When you're done with the dishes, will you make me some chocolate milk?"
(And it has not hindered their ability or desire to learn and do things
themselves as they are ready to try them, including making their own
chocolate milk some of the time).
My point remains that I don't believe intentionally frustrating children for
the purpose of pushing them to "do things themselves" is necessary or
beneficial.
My agenda is to be helpful, polite, kind, and accomating to the people I
live with. This results in them being helpful, polite, kind and accomodating
toward me. If I were "setting them up" and intentionally withholding
something they were asking for because I wanted to intentionally frustrate
them into doing it themselves, it would not help my family live more happily
together.
----------
That is the whole point of
unschooling, the child's natural intelligence remains in place rather than
crushing it out of them with brainwashing techniques.
----------
That's not the whole point of unschooling for our family. It's not even a
main point for us.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2464
Date: Wed, Oct 9, 2002, 9:49 AM
Even the parent who responds
immediately to a request for help has an agenda.
----------
My "agenda" in responding as immediately as I reasonably can is that I enjoy
living in a family of people who want to help each other achieve happiness
and contentment.
My "reward" for this is two children who, if I ask for help, almost always
respond immediately to my request (and on those occasions when they do not,
it's for a good reason, such as being right in the middle of something
important to them to continue with).
----------
If an adult needed my help they probably would wait until they saw that I
had finished the dishes to ask.
----------
There are degrees to things. If my husband is spouting blood from a major
artery, I don't say, "Yes, yes, I'll help you when I'm done with the
dishes." If he wants me to come look at a web page, he'll say, "When you
have a chance, will you come look at this?" My language to my daughters when
they say "Will you make me some chocolate milk?" and I'm right in the middle
of something, reflects this kind of asking, "I'm right in the middle of the
dishes, can you wait for a few minutes while I finish?" (And if their answer
is no, they can't wait, then the dishes can.)
This has resulted in two children, age 7 and 5-yesterday, who very often now
and will more and more as time goes on, ask for non-urgent things by saying,
"When you're done with the dishes, will you make me some chocolate milk?"
(And it has not hindered their ability or desire to learn and do things
themselves as they are ready to try them, including making their own
chocolate milk some of the time).
My point remains that I don't believe intentionally frustrating children for
the purpose of pushing them to "do things themselves" is necessary or
beneficial.
My agenda is to be helpful, polite, kind, and accomating to the people I
live with. This results in them being helpful, polite, kind and accomodating
toward me. If I were "setting them up" and intentionally withholding
something they were asking for because I wanted to intentionally frustrate
them into doing it themselves, it would not help my family live more happily
together.
----------
That is the whole point of
unschooling, the child's natural intelligence remains in place rather than
crushing it out of them with brainwashing techniques.
----------
That's not the whole point of unschooling for our family. It's not even a
main point for us.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
----------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2464
Date: Wed, Oct 9, 2002, 9:49 AM
As for the idea that learning is interest driven. I just can't picture a
baby sitting back and saying 'Hey, that thing they do with two legs looks
interesting. Maybe I will try and learn it too because I am interested in
it.'
No, I think the baby is interested in getting that ball into her mouth and
then she finds that her body is not getting over to it so she gets
frustrated and kicks her legs and then figures out how to crawl. And when
crawling becomes frustrating because she can't go fast enough then, after
enough frustration, she learns how to walk.
----------
Point 1: Neither of my children showed any interest in learning to walk for
the purpose of getting "to" something. Both went through all steps of
walking with the obvious purpose of the walking itself. Once they could
walk, they'd walk all over randomly for several days before they even
considered walking from point A to point B *for* something. (Exception, we
did the typical parent game of letting baby walk from one parent to the
other for applause and hugs, but that was our idea, not the baby's, though
they entered into it willingly once it was suggested).
Point 2: Even if "getting to something" had been my child's motivation to
walk, that's a natural frustration. That's not me putting obstacles in their
way, moving the toy intentionally out of reach or refusing to hand the baby
the toy when she asks, all with the goal to "push" her to something on my
timetable instead of hers.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2464
Date: Wed, Oct 9, 2002, 9:49 AM
As for the idea that learning is interest driven. I just can't picture a
baby sitting back and saying 'Hey, that thing they do with two legs looks
interesting. Maybe I will try and learn it too because I am interested in
it.'
No, I think the baby is interested in getting that ball into her mouth and
then she finds that her body is not getting over to it so she gets
frustrated and kicks her legs and then figures out how to crawl. And when
crawling becomes frustrating because she can't go fast enough then, after
enough frustration, she learns how to walk.
----------
Point 1: Neither of my children showed any interest in learning to walk for
the purpose of getting "to" something. Both went through all steps of
walking with the obvious purpose of the walking itself. Once they could
walk, they'd walk all over randomly for several days before they even
considered walking from point A to point B *for* something. (Exception, we
did the typical parent game of letting baby walk from one parent to the
other for applause and hugs, but that was our idea, not the baby's, though
they entered into it willingly once it was suggested).
Point 2: Even if "getting to something" had been my child's motivation to
walk, that's a natural frustration. That's not me putting obstacles in their
way, moving the toy intentionally out of reach or refusing to hand the baby
the toy when she asks, all with the goal to "push" her to something on my
timetable instead of hers.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/9/02 11:50:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Even the parent who responds
immediately to a request for help has an agenda.
hungry, hurt, lonely or needing anything I could provide.
My agenda is to raise children as free from fear as is humanly possible, to
have their needs so fulfilled, to have them so content that they are
overflowing with love for their fellow humans and confidence in themselves.
Do I always attain this agenda? No. I'm not nearly good enough at it. I'm
still deprogramming a life time of learned behaviors that seem quite
natural...and harmful.
But that is my agenda.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Even the parent who responds
immediately to a request for help has an agenda.
>>Yes. My agenda is to meet their needs...to make sure they aren't scared,
hungry, hurt, lonely or needing anything I could provide.
My agenda is to raise children as free from fear as is humanly possible, to
have their needs so fulfilled, to have them so content that they are
overflowing with love for their fellow humans and confidence in themselves.
Do I always attain this agenda? No. I'm not nearly good enough at it. I'm
still deprogramming a life time of learned behaviors that seem quite
natural...and harmful.
But that is my agenda.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/9/02 11:50:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< When people first begin to learn about homeschooling they do so not because
they are interested in homeschooling but because the alternatives to
homeschooling are so frustratingly poor. >>
That isn't even remotely true.
I was interested in homeschooling simply because it compelled me. I began my
research only on interest.
I eventually saw the damage in school as counter to homeschooling, but that
wasn't what propelled me to learn about it. I started learning about it,
based on interest alone, before my son was school age though. So alternative
were not an issue in the beginning.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< When people first begin to learn about homeschooling they do so not because
they are interested in homeschooling but because the alternatives to
homeschooling are so frustratingly poor. >>
That isn't even remotely true.
I was interested in homeschooling simply because it compelled me. I began my
research only on interest.
I eventually saw the damage in school as counter to homeschooling, but that
wasn't what propelled me to learn about it. I started learning about it,
based on interest alone, before my son was school age though. So alternative
were not an issue in the beginning.
Ren
Andrea
At 09:05 PM 10/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
home as opposed to unschooling. I'm sorry I don't remember who the original
poster was - Liz?
I said in my introduction that we were unschooling before we even knew what
it was called. I believe that unschooling is the natural outcome when you
are an intuitive parent. We didn't expect our babies to eat when the clock
said they should, or walk when the books said they would, so why should we,
all of a sudden, just because they have turned five, expect them to learn
things because the Department of Education says they should?
My seven-year-old does not tie shoes either (velcro only). I'm good at
shrugging my shoulders.
Donna Andrea
>In a message dated 10/9/02 11:50:48 AM Central Daylight Time,I don't agree with this either, except if it applies only to schooling at
>[email protected] writes:
>
><< When people first begin to learn about homeschooling they do so not because
> they are interested in homeschooling but because the alternatives to
> homeschooling are so frustratingly poor. >>
home as opposed to unschooling. I'm sorry I don't remember who the original
poster was - Liz?
I said in my introduction that we were unschooling before we even knew what
it was called. I believe that unschooling is the natural outcome when you
are an intuitive parent. We didn't expect our babies to eat when the clock
said they should, or walk when the books said they would, so why should we,
all of a sudden, just because they have turned five, expect them to learn
things because the Department of Education says they should?
My seven-year-old does not tie shoes either (velcro only). I'm good at
shrugging my shoulders.
Donna Andrea
Stephanie Elms
> No, I think the baby is interested in getting that ball intoBut what about kids like my oldest who avoid frustration? Who wait until
> her mouth and
> then she finds that her body is not getting over to it so she gets
> frustrated and kicks her legs and then figures out how to
> crawl. And when
> crawling becomes frustrating because she can't go fast enough
> then, after
> enough frustration, she learns how to walk.
they are good and ready to do something and then do it practically
overnight? For whom frustration can be often be overwhelming? In my
son's case, frustration seems to be more of a hindrance then a help.
So yes, I try to help him avoid frustration...he gets so mad at himself
when he tries to write and the letters do not look good enough (for him,
not for me). We have talked about how practice will help him improve and
how things do not have to be perfect. But he still gets so mad at himself.
So I do not push it and I am sure that he most likely will pick it up
overnight. The way that he learns is to *watch*, not necessarily do. We have
a Lemmings computer game...he likes me to play while he watches. He has gradually
increased the levels that he will try on his own. This does not mean that he
will not try something on his own, just that if the frustration level gets too
high for him, he shuts down. So I guess that I see frustration as more of a hindrance
then a motivating factor.
I have also been looking at why I learn things and sometimes it is because I get
frustrated and want a better way, but most times it is more from a desire to learn
more about the subject. I started looking into hsing because I met some folks online
who talked about it and it seemed like a really neat way to learn. Before meeting
them I would have been perfectly fine sending Jason to school. I loved it myself.
After reading and thinking more about it, I realized that learning from life was just a
cool way to learn. There have been lots of things that I have learned in my life that
were easy to learn and did not involve frustration.
Maybe it is just the connotation of the word for me. I see frustration like the dictionary
definition as a negative. Learning for me is not a negative thing. It is born out of a
desire to learn more. If it is something challenging, there may be frustration involved,
but I do not see that frustration is required in order to learn.
I absolutely love American History. I find it fascinating. I am not frustrated by my
lack of knowledge, but if there is a pbs show that sounds interesting, I will watch it.
If I find a good book that sounds interesting I read it. Because it interests me. As
an aside...I was watching the pbs show Founding Fathers and I learned something that
fascinated me...when there was debate about whether to start a national bank, Hamilton
and Jefferson argued about whether to do so was constitutional (Hamilton for and Jefferson
against). I just thought that it was so neat to think that even the people who wrote
the constitution had debates over what was constitutional or not. Call me weird I guess.
Sorry for the rambling...just still mulling over whether frustration is necessary for
learning...
Stephanie E.