Who should pay?
Todd M.
On another list, we're sort of talking about whether public schools should
be paid for with tax money, or if each childs' education should be the
responsibility of the parents to pay for. Someone brought up a point and
said that without public schools, our society would be complete anarchy
(obviously mistaking that for chaos). Also said that if "we" didn't pay for
public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the kids,
and the for the police to round them up. Since I am for anarchy (NOT
chaos), I don't see a problem with anarchy. <g> Anyway, just curious about
what others think about who's fiscal responsibility it is to educate "the
children" :-)
Todd
====================================
I was going to join the Paranoids anonymous group,
but they won't tell me where they're meeting.
be paid for with tax money, or if each childs' education should be the
responsibility of the parents to pay for. Someone brought up a point and
said that without public schools, our society would be complete anarchy
(obviously mistaking that for chaos). Also said that if "we" didn't pay for
public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the kids,
and the for the police to round them up. Since I am for anarchy (NOT
chaos), I don't see a problem with anarchy. <g> Anyway, just curious about
what others think about who's fiscal responsibility it is to educate "the
children" :-)
Todd
====================================
I was going to join the Paranoids anonymous group,
but they won't tell me where they're meeting.
Peggy
"Todd M." wrote:
the vast majority of the population were not literate?
Or just consider:
Banking -- checking, credit cards and all the small print terms/percentages of
interest
Homes -- rental agreements and mortgage terms or comparison shopping when
buying a house
Transportation -- driver's responsibility, accidents, buying, insuring,
leasing cost of
Food / water / medical and health care
Working - conditions and terms, rights and responsibilites
Not to mention civic issues like Jury Duty or court and common understanding
of basic rules of conduct among humans.
At a minimum people without access to education will be at a disadvantage in
all of these areas, looking at how those people could cause a negative ripple
effect in the lives of those who are educated? I think we are already living
in that reality.
We already live in a world where a great many people are not competent to
succeed literately. With legitimate channels closed to them they seek wealth,
respect, power in avenues that come at the cost of the literate and
successful.
We need MORE of these people around? I don't think so.
I homeschool because I want the very best for my children and I don't think
they would get it in school, but, I don't think everyone could do this or
should do this, and I don't mind paying school taxes. I do object to paying
taxes for school systems that shuffle poorer kids around and convince them
they cannot learn. There is something wrong with the system, all children are
capable of learning, but paying for public education isn't the problem.
MNSHO,
Peggy
>Why not google around and find some places, both now and in the past, where
> On another list, we're sort of talking about whether public schools should
> be paid for with tax money, or if each childs' education should be the
> responsibility of the parents to pay for. Someone brought up a point and
> said that without public schools, our society would be complete anarchy
> (obviously mistaking that for chaos). Also said that if "we" didn't pay for
> public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the kids,
> and the for the police to round them up. Since I am for anarchy (NOT
> chaos), I don't see a problem with anarchy. <g> Anyway, just curious about
> what others think about who's fiscal responsibility it is to educate "the
> children" :-)
>
> Todd
the vast majority of the population were not literate?
Or just consider:
Banking -- checking, credit cards and all the small print terms/percentages of
interest
Homes -- rental agreements and mortgage terms or comparison shopping when
buying a house
Transportation -- driver's responsibility, accidents, buying, insuring,
leasing cost of
Food / water / medical and health care
Working - conditions and terms, rights and responsibilites
Not to mention civic issues like Jury Duty or court and common understanding
of basic rules of conduct among humans.
At a minimum people without access to education will be at a disadvantage in
all of these areas, looking at how those people could cause a negative ripple
effect in the lives of those who are educated? I think we are already living
in that reality.
We already live in a world where a great many people are not competent to
succeed literately. With legitimate channels closed to them they seek wealth,
respect, power in avenues that come at the cost of the literate and
successful.
We need MORE of these people around? I don't think so.
I homeschool because I want the very best for my children and I don't think
they would get it in school, but, I don't think everyone could do this or
should do this, and I don't mind paying school taxes. I do object to paying
taxes for school systems that shuffle poorer kids around and convince them
they cannot learn. There is something wrong with the system, all children are
capable of learning, but paying for public education isn't the problem.
MNSHO,
Peggy
Myranda
Hmmm. I've always been a fan of the one-room schoolhouses. Personally, I'd love to see each community or neighborhood with one of these, with a teacher from that neighborhood, and the parents all chip in and pay for their children's supplies and whatever they can afford to the teacher. If there are a few more well-to-do people there, they could get "extras" put in like a small gym. This probably would not work in large cities, but in smaller towns it could work perfectly, IMO. The Menonites and Amish do this, and their children are very well educated.
Myranda
On another list, we're sort of talking about whether public schools should
be paid for with tax money, or if each childs' education should be the
responsibility of the parents to pay for. Someone brought up a point and
said that without public schools, our society would be complete anarchy
(obviously mistaking that for chaos). Also said that if "we" didn't pay for
public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the kids,
and the for the police to round them up. Since I am for anarchy (NOT
chaos), I don't see a problem with anarchy. <g> Anyway, just curious about
what others think about who's fiscal responsibility it is to educate "the
children" :-)
Todd
====================================
I was going to join the Paranoids anonymous group,
but they won't tell me where they're meeting.
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
On another list, we're sort of talking about whether public schools should
be paid for with tax money, or if each childs' education should be the
responsibility of the parents to pay for. Someone brought up a point and
said that without public schools, our society would be complete anarchy
(obviously mistaking that for chaos). Also said that if "we" didn't pay for
public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the kids,
and the for the police to round them up. Since I am for anarchy (NOT
chaos), I don't see a problem with anarchy. <g> Anyway, just curious about
what others think about who's fiscal responsibility it is to educate "the
children" :-)
Todd
====================================
I was going to join the Paranoids anonymous group,
but they won't tell me where they're meeting.
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> Why not google around and find some places, both now and in thepast, where
> the vast majority of the population were not literate?You're assuming that we would be illiterate without public
education. Did you know that ever since compulsory education our
literacy rate has steadily declined? We live in a literate society.
Lots of opportunities abound in today's world. I think it would be
hard to be illiterate in our literate society--it would be the rare
person who would be illiterate if we got rid of public education. As
a matter of fact, the literacy rate would probably go up. All those
poor kids labeled "slow readers" and put in remedial programs would
grow up without the stigma and learn to read on their own.
The answer isn't public education, it is increased morality and
stronger families.
> Or just consider:terms/percentages of
>
> Banking -- checking, credit cards and all the small print
> interestI didn't understand math well enough to do all that from my public
school education. What made me "get it" was when I had free time on
the weekend and got addicted to Monopoly. I learned a LOT about real
life math schools by playing those games. Funny, though, every time
I played against my dolls I ALWAYS won! ;)
> Transportation -- driver's responsibility, accidents, buying,insuring,
> leasing cost ofDriver's ed did me no good either. I learned all that stuff from my
fiance(who is now my dh!) , who taught me how to drive when I was
16.
> Food / water / medical and health careI had to unlearn most of what I was taught in school about health
care. For example, when my kids developed milk allergies, I had to
research and realize that that food pyramid they teach us about is
not very healthy imo. And that allopathic medicine is nothing my
family wants to be involved in.
> Not to mention civic issues like Jury Duty or court and commonunderstanding
> of basic rules of conduct among humans.You think we need schools to teach us basic rules of conduct among
humans?
> At a minimum people without access to education will be at adisadvantage in
> all of these areas, looking at how those people could cause anegative ripple
> effect in the lives of those who are educated? I think we arealready living
> in that reality.Yes, we are already living in that reality. We are living in that
reality because we have public education. An institution can't fully
prepare people to live full lives. It's generally bad for kids.
> > I homeschool because I want the very best for my children and Idon't think
> they would get it in school, but, I don't think everyone could dothis or
> should do this, and I don't mind paying school taxes.I think everyone should do this, and I do mind paying school taxes.
I mind very much.
Sheila
kayb85
John Holt recommended a book in one of his magazines about a girl who
moved from the city and ended up going to a one room school house.
It was an excellent book (juvenile fiction, but I loved it). It was
called Understood Betsy.
Sheila
moved from the city and ended up going to a one room school house.
It was an excellent book (juvenile fiction, but I loved it). It was
called Understood Betsy.
Sheila
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Myranda" <myrandab@b...> wrote:
> Hmmm. I've always been a fan of the one-room schoolhouses.
Personally, I'd love to see each community or neighborhood with one
of these, with a teacher from that neighborhood, and the parents all
chip in and pay for their children's supplies and whatever they can
afford to the teacher. If there are a few more well-to-do people
there, they could get "extras" put in like a small gym. This probably
would not work in large cities, but in smaller towns it could work
perfectly, IMO. The Menonites and Amish do this, and their children
are very well educated.
> Myranda
>
> On another list, we're sort of talking about whether public
schools should
> be paid for with tax money, or if each childs' education should
be the
> responsibility of the parents to pay for. Someone brought up a
point and
> said that without public schools, our society would be complete
anarchy
> (obviously mistaking that for chaos). Also said that if "we"
didn't pay for
> public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house
the kids,
> and the for the police to round them up. Since I am for anarchy
(NOT
> chaos), I don't see a problem with anarchy. <g> Anyway, just
curious about
> what others think about who's fiscal responsibility it is to
educate "the
> children" :-)
>
> Todd
> ====================================
> I was going to join the Paranoids anonymous group,
> but they won't tell me where they're meeting.
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line!
~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list,
please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@e...), or the
list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@h...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or
address an email to:
> Unschooling-dotcom-unsubscribe@y...
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:42:38 -0400 "Myranda" <myrandab@...>
writes:
children don't go past 8th grade, and they certainly never take college
classes. Continuing to learn non-practical things outside of school-time
isn't encouraged. I read a book about Amish 1-room schools written by an
Amish schoolteacher, who had had an 8th grade education and wrote very,
very poorly.
Dar
writes:
>The Menonites and Amish do this, andBy what criteria? At least with the old order Amish, most of their
> their children are very well educated.
children don't go past 8th grade, and they certainly never take college
classes. Continuing to learn non-practical things outside of school-time
isn't encouraged. I read a book about Amish 1-room schools written by an
Amish schoolteacher, who had had an 8th grade education and wrote very,
very poorly.
Dar
Myranda
I used to live nearby both, and made very frequent trips to their communities to buy/trade for produce. Their "school" did only go thru the 8th grade, but they continued learning via apprenticeship in their chosen field after that. The Menonites also had the option of furthering their education via correspondence courses for both high school and college. They could all read, write, and did math every bit as well as I. Those who chose to become farriers, learned by working with the current farrier(s), those who chose to become lay midwives did so by doing it right along with the current lay midwives. They had a much better education in their chosen field by age 18 than most college graduates have. Plus every one of them learns to farm properly (including the rotation and conservation of land), to build houses and barns and roads and bridges, to tend children, to cook and clean, to identify and use dozens (if not hundreds) of plants and herbs, to take care of livestock, and basic first aid. That's far above what the majority of college graduates, or even people in general learn in their entire lifetime. All of that doesn't even mention that they also learn the Bible word for word, and are the most compassionate and loving people I've ever had the fortune to meet.
Myranda
By what criteria? At least with the old order Amish, most of their
children don't go past 8th grade, and they certainly never take college
classes. Continuing to learn non-practical things outside of school-time
isn't encouraged. I read a book about Amish 1-room schools written by an
Amish schoolteacher, who had had an 8th grade education and wrote very,
very poorly.
Dar
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
By what criteria? At least with the old order Amish, most of their
children don't go past 8th grade, and they certainly never take college
classes. Continuing to learn non-practical things outside of school-time
isn't encouraged. I read a book about Amish 1-room schools written by an
Amish schoolteacher, who had had an 8th grade education and wrote very,
very poorly.
Dar
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
I think this is a great example of how government "handouts" lead to
government regulation. The fact that some people take welfare checks
from the government is used as a reason that everyone be forcibly
educated to (in theory) reduce the risk that they will become a burden
to the state in the future.
Something we should all consider before letting the government pay for
our books, classes, or curriculum.
Betsy
**
On another list, we're sort of talking about whether public schools
should
be paid for with tax money, or if each childs' education should be the
responsibility of the parents to pay for. Someone brought up a point and
said that without public schools, our society would be complete anarchy
(obviously mistaking that for chaos). Also said that if "we" didn't pay
for
public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the
kids,
and the for the police to round them up. Since I am for anarchy (NOT
chaos), I don't see a problem with anarchy. <g> Anyway, just curious
about
what others think about who's fiscal responsibility it is to educate
"the
children" :-)**
government regulation. The fact that some people take welfare checks
from the government is used as a reason that everyone be forcibly
educated to (in theory) reduce the risk that they will become a burden
to the state in the future.
Something we should all consider before letting the government pay for
our books, classes, or curriculum.
Betsy
**
On another list, we're sort of talking about whether public schools
should
be paid for with tax money, or if each childs' education should be the
responsibility of the parents to pay for. Someone brought up a point and
said that without public schools, our society would be complete anarchy
(obviously mistaking that for chaos). Also said that if "we" didn't pay
for
public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the
kids,
and the for the police to round them up. Since I am for anarchy (NOT
chaos), I don't see a problem with anarchy. <g> Anyway, just curious
about
what others think about who's fiscal responsibility it is to educate
"the
children" :-)**
Peggy
Sheila wrote:
I'm as passionate as anyone about the benefits of homeschooling but I don't
see how everyone can do it. What about families where both parents must work
long hours? What about single parent families? I know some single parents who
make monumental efforts to work jobs that allow them the time to homeschool
their children, but surely expecting all of them to do that is unfair and
unrealistic?
And while I agree that the schools are not teaching in the way that is best
for children to learn, I see the problem as a community and a culture who
profits from the ignorance of others, rather than an opportunity to throw the
baby out with the bath water and get rid of public schooling altogether.
Peggy
> > > I homeschool because I want the very best for my children and IYou think everyone should homeschool? Wow. I don't see how that would work.
> don't think
> > they would get it in school, but, I don't think everyone could do
> this or
> > should do this, and I don't mind paying school taxes.
>
> I think everyone should do this, and I do mind paying school taxes.
> I mind very much.
I'm as passionate as anyone about the benefits of homeschooling but I don't
see how everyone can do it. What about families where both parents must work
long hours? What about single parent families? I know some single parents who
make monumental efforts to work jobs that allow them the time to homeschool
their children, but surely expecting all of them to do that is unfair and
unrealistic?
And while I agree that the schools are not teaching in the way that is best
for children to learn, I see the problem as a community and a culture who
profits from the ignorance of others, rather than an opportunity to throw the
baby out with the bath water and get rid of public schooling altogether.
Peggy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/6/02 7:59:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< You're assuming that we would be illiterate without public
education. Did you know that ever since compulsory education our
literacy rate has steadily declined? We live in a literate society.
Lots of opportunities abound in today's world. I think it would be
hard to be illiterate in our literate society--it would be the rare
person who would be illiterate if we got rid of public education. As
a matter of fact, the literacy rate would probably go up. All those
poor kids labeled "slow readers" and put in remedial programs would
grow up without the stigma and learn to read on their own. >>
Yes, yes, yes!!! People should read "the literacy hoax"...study history if
they think public education is actually educating people.
Gag.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< You're assuming that we would be illiterate without public
education. Did you know that ever since compulsory education our
literacy rate has steadily declined? We live in a literate society.
Lots of opportunities abound in today's world. I think it would be
hard to be illiterate in our literate society--it would be the rare
person who would be illiterate if we got rid of public education. As
a matter of fact, the literacy rate would probably go up. All those
poor kids labeled "slow readers" and put in remedial programs would
grow up without the stigma and learn to read on their own. >>
Yes, yes, yes!!! People should read "the literacy hoax"...study history if
they think public education is actually educating people.
Gag.
Ren
Mary Bianco
>From: "Myranda" <myrandab@...><<Hmmm. I've always been a fan of the one-room schoolhouses. Personally, I'd
love to see each community or neighborhood with one of these, with a teacher
from that neighborhood, and the parents all chip in and pay for their
children's supplies and whatever they can afford to the teacher. If there
are a few more well-to-do people there, they could get "extras" put in like
a small gym. This probably would not work in large cities, but in smaller
towns it could work perfectly, IMO. The Menonites and Amish do this, and
their children are very well educated.>>
Well I like this idea a lot but just don't see it ever happening. I also
like the idea of schools like the Sudbury ones. I know most are private but
there is one that is public. Not sure how they managed to do that but if we
have to have schools, I think that is the best way to go. (of course just in
case someone is familiar with one that is a disaster, let me just say I'm
going on what I know of some of them and also the whole idea of them)
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
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Robyn Coburn
<<Also said that if "we" didn't pay for
public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the
kids,
and the for the police to round them up.>>
Whoops! Looks like that's already happening.
From Scientific American, December 2001, page 28.
"The US has gone through a historically unparalleled expansion in its
prison population - from fewer than 400,000 in 1970 to almost 2.1
million in 2000. The expansion continued vigorously even as crime rates
fell sharply in recent years."
The article goes on to talk about variance in state "law and order"
policies, that evidently are creating a surge in incarcerations in some
states.
Robyn Coburn
public school education, then we'd be paying for prisons to house the
kids,
and the for the police to round them up.>>
Whoops! Looks like that's already happening.
From Scientific American, December 2001, page 28.
"The US has gone through a historically unparalleled expansion in its
prison population - from fewer than 400,000 in 1970 to almost 2.1
million in 2000. The expansion continued vigorously even as crime rates
fell sharply in recent years."
The article goes on to talk about variance in state "law and order"
policies, that evidently are creating a surge in incarcerations in some
states.
Robyn Coburn
Elissa Cleaveland
--- kayb85 <sheran@...> wrote:
As
would be to NOT be in school in order to learn to
read? And where will they get books? Their parents
don't buy them. Maybe the library! After all they are
free there. But no one takes them to the library! I
suppose they could try sounding out the words on
cereal boxes, or watch Between teh lions, but they
don't know there even IS a show like that. WHY?
Because they're parents are unconcerned, some are
addicted and the others aren't even there. How are all
the children in school today with family situations
like that supposed to *benefit* from no school? Their
parents certainly aren't going to help.
friend and her partner who who willingly, knowingly
and joyfully brought two boys into this world is far
stronger than my heroin addicted panhandling married
heterosexual SIL, but not many in positions of power
would agree, who has the right to prescibe morality to
another anyway?
is Yes.
we just pretend their children don't exist?
Elissa Jill
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
As
> a matter of fact, the literacy rate would probablyMe: Oh! So all my neices and nephews would have to do
> go up. All those
> poor kids labeled "slow readers" and put in remedial
> programs would
> grow up without the stigma and learn to read on
> their own.
would be to NOT be in school in order to learn to
read? And where will they get books? Their parents
don't buy them. Maybe the library! After all they are
free there. But no one takes them to the library! I
suppose they could try sounding out the words on
cereal boxes, or watch Between teh lions, but they
don't know there even IS a show like that. WHY?
Because they're parents are unconcerned, some are
addicted and the others aren't even there. How are all
the children in school today with family situations
like that supposed to *benefit* from no school? Their
parents certainly aren't going to help.
>what constitutes a "stronger" family? My lesbian
> The answer isn't public education, it is increased
> morality and
> stronger families.
>
>Me: Whose morality ? Your Christian morality? And
friend and her partner who who willingly, knowingly
and joyfully brought two boys into this world is far
stronger than my heroin addicted panhandling married
heterosexual SIL, but not many in positions of power
would agree, who has the right to prescibe morality to
another anyway?
>Me: Unfortunately, to many many children, the answer
> You think we need schools to teach us basic rules of
> conduct among
> humans?
is Yes.
> I think everyone should do this, and I do mindMe:Not everyone is *Capable* of homeschooling, so do
> paying school taxes.
> I mind very much.
we just pretend their children don't exist?
Elissa Jill
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/02 2:34:54 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Whoops! Looks like that's already happening. >>
Well....you don't have to wait for prison. They imprison them during school.
Here in NW Florida, the police actively look for school age kids out an about
during school hours. They have a truancy center they take them to, and
homeschooled kids have to be very careful, or else!!
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Whoops! Looks like that's already happening. >>
Well....you don't have to wait for prison. They imprison them during school.
Here in NW Florida, the police actively look for school age kids out an about
during school hours. They have a truancy center they take them to, and
homeschooled kids have to be very careful, or else!!
Ren
kayb85
What do you learn past 8th grade material that you really need in
real life? Do you really think that college is that important? You
don't think that people who can raise families, raise all their food
themselves, build their own barns and sometimes their own homes as
well as most of their furniture, carriages and chicken coops, breed
their own animals, butcher and cook their own animals, and do very
well financially are hurting because they don't have more than an 8th
grade education? Oh yeah, and they're usually bilingual as well.
You just hit a sore spot. My legislator thinks we (homeschoolers in
PA) should have regular intervals of testing to ensure that "certain
religious sectarian farmers" such as the Amish and some mennonites
don't not teach their children enough.
I've been to craft fairs and farmers markets and have bought things
from Amish. I have had Amish little girls, who couldn't have been
more than 8 or 9 years old, adding up my order and giving me change
with incredible accuracy and confidence. Very few public schooled
kids could do that.
Sheila
real life? Do you really think that college is that important? You
don't think that people who can raise families, raise all their food
themselves, build their own barns and sometimes their own homes as
well as most of their furniture, carriages and chicken coops, breed
their own animals, butcher and cook their own animals, and do very
well financially are hurting because they don't have more than an 8th
grade education? Oh yeah, and they're usually bilingual as well.
You just hit a sore spot. My legislator thinks we (homeschoolers in
PA) should have regular intervals of testing to ensure that "certain
religious sectarian farmers" such as the Amish and some mennonites
don't not teach their children enough.
I've been to craft fairs and farmers markets and have bought things
from Amish. I have had Amish little girls, who couldn't have been
more than 8 or 9 years old, adding up my order and giving me change
with incredible accuracy and confidence. Very few public schooled
kids could do that.
Sheila
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:
>
> On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:42:38 -0400 "Myranda" <myrandab@b...>
> writes:
> >The Menonites and Amish do this, and
> > their children are very well educated.
>
> By what criteria? At least with the old order Amish, most of their
> children don't go past 8th grade, and they certainly never take
college
> classes. Continuing to learn non-practical things outside of school-
time
> isn't encouraged. I read a book about Amish 1-room schools written
by an
> Amish schoolteacher, who had had an 8th grade education and wrote
very,
> very poorly.
>
> Dar
kayb85
> You think everyone should homeschool? Wow.Yes. Definitely.
I don't see how that would work.
> I'm as passionate as anyone about the benefits of homeschooling butI don't
> see how everyone can do it. What about families where both parentsmust work
> long hours?I doubt that both parents MUST work long hours. I know people who
live on incredibly low amounts of money. They live very modestly--no
tv, no newspaper and magazine subscriptions, shop at discount grocery
stores and never go out to eat. They're happy. One family I'm
thinking of has 6 kids and one more on the way, and the dad is a
janitor and bus driver. The other family is a 3 child family where
the dad is an oil delivery man. These families are truly an
inspiration to me. If they can do it on their incomes, there's no
reason for both parents to work long hours.
What about single parent families?
I believe in community (non-government mandated community!)and I
believe that the homeschooling families should be there for each
other more than they are now. We should help those families who are
single parent families and want their children home.
I know some single parents who
> make monumental efforts to work jobs that allow them the time tohomeschool
> their children, but surely expecting all of them to do that isunfair and
> unrealistic?Why is it unfair to say that people should choose to raise their
children in the best possible way? And raising children in the best
possible way doesn't include putting them in institutions.
> And while I agree that the schools are not teaching in the way thatis best
> for children to learn, I see the problem as a community and aculture who
> profits from the ignorance of others, rather than an opportunity tothrow the
> baby out with the bath water and get rid of public schoolingaltogether.
>The biggest problem with the institution of public education isn't
> Peggy
that it doesn't do a good enough job educating kids, but the fact
that it is an institution.
Sheila
Mary Bianco
Well I don't agree with the line of thinking that all parents should
homeschool. I know many who should absolutely NOT homeschool. I think many
children would do worse home with mom or dad all day then being in school.
There are some children who thrive in school and turn themselves out quite
well in spite of it. I would say most of us here fall into that category.
<BG>
I believe though that everyone could if they wanted to. I do believe that
families who say they both must work, really and truly don't HAVE to. It's
all a matter of priorities. Give up the two cars or big house and downsize.
Stay home and give up movies every week or getting your nails done. It's a
matter of what's important to you. I never ever thought, looking back to 8
years ago, that my husband and I could raise 4 kids without me working let
alone in the house we live in. It was important to us, we gave up some stuff
and my husband made it happen. We forgo the vacations and weekly nights out
for the two of us. Our house is big and full of stuff to activate our
children into going wherever they want to go. We stay home a lot with the
pool and swingset and sandbox and yard but it was important for us to have
these things. More important than Disney every year. Although if we could
afford it, we would be there too!!!
I also know many single mom's who homeschool. They make it happen because
it's important to them.
I just don't feel it's right to say what I think is best for my children,
homeschooling, is best for someone else's children. That would leave me open
to having someone making me vaccinate because they feel it's the best for
their kids. I don't want anyone telling me what's best for mine and telling
others that same thing is a very slippery slope.
Mary B
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homeschool. I know many who should absolutely NOT homeschool. I think many
children would do worse home with mom or dad all day then being in school.
There are some children who thrive in school and turn themselves out quite
well in spite of it. I would say most of us here fall into that category.
<BG>
I believe though that everyone could if they wanted to. I do believe that
families who say they both must work, really and truly don't HAVE to. It's
all a matter of priorities. Give up the two cars or big house and downsize.
Stay home and give up movies every week or getting your nails done. It's a
matter of what's important to you. I never ever thought, looking back to 8
years ago, that my husband and I could raise 4 kids without me working let
alone in the house we live in. It was important to us, we gave up some stuff
and my husband made it happen. We forgo the vacations and weekly nights out
for the two of us. Our house is big and full of stuff to activate our
children into going wherever they want to go. We stay home a lot with the
pool and swingset and sandbox and yard but it was important for us to have
these things. More important than Disney every year. Although if we could
afford it, we would be there too!!!
I also know many single mom's who homeschool. They make it happen because
it's important to them.
I just don't feel it's right to say what I think is best for my children,
homeschooling, is best for someone else's children. That would leave me open
to having someone making me vaccinate because they feel it's the best for
their kids. I don't want anyone telling me what's best for mine and telling
others that same thing is a very slippery slope.
Mary B
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kayb85
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Mary Bianco" <mummyone24@h...> wrote:
I know people like that too. But I still say that they SHOULD
homeschool, but should change their parenting style. It's not about
homeschooling/unschooling vs. schooling, it's about good parenting
vs. bad parenting. The only thing school does for the kids we're
talking about is keep them away from bad parenting for part of most
weekdays.
that everyone should homeschool. I'm just saying that it's what is
best for children--all children. I would also say that not
vaccinating is what is best for all children. I'm not saying that I
don't think other parents shouldn't have the freedom to disagree with
me and send their kids to school or vaccinate them. I just don't
want to pay for them to do it. I don't like to pay for public
schooling or government vaccine programs with my taxes because I feel
so strongly against them. Better to give everyone freedom and let
those who feel they want these things (school, vaccine) for their
kids to pay for them themselves, not by people who are opposed to
them. That is tyrranical and wrong. Like a penalty to those who don't
agree with public schools and vaccines (If you don't like what we say
is right, pay for your own education and healthcare and then pay for
ours on top of that too.)
Sheila
> Well I don't agree with the line of thinking that all parentsshould
> homeschool. I know many who should absolutely NOT homeschool. Ithink many
> children would do worse home with mom or dad all day then being inschool.
I know people like that too. But I still say that they SHOULD
homeschool, but should change their parenting style. It's not about
homeschooling/unschooling vs. schooling, it's about good parenting
vs. bad parenting. The only thing school does for the kids we're
talking about is keep them away from bad parenting for part of most
weekdays.
> I just don't feel it's right to say what I think is best for mychildren,
> homeschooling, is best for someone else's children. That wouldleave me open
> to having someone making me vaccinate because they feel it's thebest for
> their kids. I don't want anyone telling me what's best for mine andtelling
> others that same thing is a very slippery slope.I'm not saying that we should have a government mandate that says
>
> Mary B
that everyone should homeschool. I'm just saying that it's what is
best for children--all children. I would also say that not
vaccinating is what is best for all children. I'm not saying that I
don't think other parents shouldn't have the freedom to disagree with
me and send their kids to school or vaccinate them. I just don't
want to pay for them to do it. I don't like to pay for public
schooling or government vaccine programs with my taxes because I feel
so strongly against them. Better to give everyone freedom and let
those who feel they want these things (school, vaccine) for their
kids to pay for them themselves, not by people who are opposed to
them. That is tyrranical and wrong. Like a penalty to those who don't
agree with public schools and vaccines (If you don't like what we say
is right, pay for your own education and healthcare and then pay for
ours on top of that too.)
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/02 9:26:48 AM Central Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:
do well? Or did you mean to say they want the test to prove the children are
learning *what they are supposed to*?
last weekend and she said the little Amish girl who took her money did the
change better than she (my sis) could. Renee' was very impressed with the
girls she saw. ANNNDDDD!!!! My sister, who once made the comment to me
"Public school is good enough for my kids." Is actually "thinking" about
homeschooling as an alternative for her dd! Yeah!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> You just hit a sore spot. My legislator thinks we (homeschoolers inDo you mean that the legislators want the tests to prove the children won't
> PA) should have regular intervals of testing to ensure that "certain
> religious sectarian farmers" such as the Amish and some mennonites
> don't not teach their children enough.
do well? Or did you mean to say they want the test to prove the children are
learning *what they are supposed to*?
>My sister, who just moved to Point Marion, PA, made a trip to Lancaster Co.
>
> I've been to craft fairs and farmers markets and have bought things
> from Amish. I have had Amish little girls, who couldn't have been
> more than 8 or 9 years old, adding up my order and giving me change
> with incredible accuracy and confidence. Very few public schooled
> kids could do that.
>
> Sheila
>
last weekend and she said the little Amish girl who took her money did the
change better than she (my sis) could. Renee' was very impressed with the
girls she saw. ANNNDDDD!!!! My sister, who once made the comment to me
"Public school is good enough for my kids." Is actually "thinking" about
homeschooling as an alternative for her dd! Yeah!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Bianco
>From: "kayb85" <sheran@...><<I know people like that too. But I still say that they SHOULD
homeschool, but should change their parenting style. It's not about
homeschooling/unschooling vs. schooling, it's about good parenting
vs. bad parenting. The only thing school does for the kids we're
talking about is keep them away from bad parenting for part of most
weekdays.>>
And how exactly are we going to make people change their parenting styles
when most of them don't think there is anything wrong with their parenting
styles? Mandated parenting classes? Just talking to my in laws until I'm
blue in the face makes me realize many out there think what they are doing
and thinking is just fine and for the most part, better than what others are
doing and thinking. Some bad parenting can be changed but only if that
person is willing to do so and open to the possibilities that there are
things for them to learn better ways of doing.
My oldest goes to school. I don't see taking her out is a good choice for
her or us. Does that make me a bad parent? And if you say yes or no, how do
you really know? What and who will consitute who is a good or bad parent?
<<I'm not saying that we should have a government mandate that says
that everyone should homeschool. I'm just saying that it's what is
best for children--all children. I would also say that not
vaccinating is what is best for all children. I'm not saying that I
don't think other parents shouldn't have the freedom to disagree with
me and send their kids to school or vaccinate them. I just don't want to
pay for them to do it. I don't like to pay for public
schooling or government vaccine programs with my taxes because I feel
so strongly against them. Better to give everyone freedom and let
those who feel they want these things (school, vaccine) for their
kids to pay for them themselves, not by people who are opposed to
them. That is tyrranical and wrong. Like a penalty to those who don't
agree with public schools and vaccines (If you don't like what we say
is right, pay for your own education and healthcare and then pay for
ours on top of that too.)>>
Again I don't think homeschooling is best for all children. I just can't
make that determination for kids I don't know. I do see where you are coming
from on the support issues though and will have to agree.
Mary B
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Tia Leschke
> What do you learn past 8th grade material that you really need inThat's great for the Amish, but where are the millions of other kids in
> real life? Do you really think that college is that important? You
> don't think that people who can raise families, raise all their food
> themselves, build their own barns and sometimes their own homes as
> well as most of their furniture, carriages and chicken coops, breed
> their own animals, butcher and cook their own animals, and do very
> well financially are hurting because they don't have more than an 8th
> grade education? Oh yeah, and they're usually bilingual as well.
North America going to farm? For the rest, *some* kind of education is
needed beyond what we call the eighth grade level. I often say I wish the
schools would just disappear, but there *are* all those kids who are not
going to get any kind of education at all, given their family situations.
Maybe some kind of very flexible voucher program, more like food stamps than
what we've seen so far, would work. You could use the vouchers to send your
kid to public or private school, or you could buy computer equipment or
books or lessons or whatever.
Tia
kayb85
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Dnowens@a... wrote:
do standardized testing in certain grades, yearly evaluations, yearly
portfolios,etc. I was talking to my legislator last week and said
that he won't vote for the bill as is (which would simply be a yearly
notification law). He wants an ammendment that makes it necessary
for periodic testing. He wants to make sure that kids are "learning
what they are supposed to". I'm sure he's thinking along the line of
knowing times tables by fourth grade, knowing how to read by the end
of first grade, knowing what a noun and verb are, etc. And of course
if these poor homeschooled children can't get a certain score on a
standardized test they should be forced to attend public school.
Sheila
> In a message dated 10/7/02 9:26:48 AM Central Daylight Time,sheran@p...
> writes:in
>
>
> > You just hit a sore spot. My legislator thinks we (homeschoolers
> > PA) should have regular intervals of testing to ensurethat "certain
> > religious sectarian farmers" such as the Amish and somemennonites
> > don't not teach their children enough.children won't
>
> Do you mean that the legislators want the tests to prove the
> do well? Or did you mean to say they want the test to prove thechildren are
> learning *what they are supposed to*?We're trying to get a new law passed in PA so that we won't have to
do standardized testing in certain grades, yearly evaluations, yearly
portfolios,etc. I was talking to my legislator last week and said
that he won't vote for the bill as is (which would simply be a yearly
notification law). He wants an ammendment that makes it necessary
for periodic testing. He wants to make sure that kids are "learning
what they are supposed to". I'm sure he's thinking along the line of
knowing times tables by fourth grade, knowing how to read by the end
of first grade, knowing what a noun and verb are, etc. And of course
if these poor homeschooled children can't get a certain score on a
standardized test they should be forced to attend public school.
Sheila
kayb85
> And how exactly are we going to make people change their parentingstyles
> when most of them don't think there is anything wrong with theirparenting
> styles? Mandated parenting classes?My goodness no! I don't think that *we* (meaning the government)
should make anyone do anything! I'm just saying that I think school
is a bad idea, especially when it's paid for by forcing people who
don't even believe in it to pay for it.
Sheila
Peggy
kayb85 wrote:
reality of many, many poor people. I understand where you're coming from, in
my own life we take many of the same measures that your family does to allow
me to stay at home and for us to live on one income. But, many people, even if
they did take those measures and saved their money, would still not have
enough income or the option of letting one of the parents stay home with the
children. And sometimes, it is the hours worked, or the type of work, or the
insurance options that limit two parent families options. I could go on and
on. I have five siblings. Four of them were laid off in the last year with
this recession. What about high costs for living and food is going through the
roof? Millions of people don't have the money or access to basic health
insurance. When one of their kids gets sick enough for emergency treatment,
those that pay their bills end up paying through the nose to make up for a
lack of coverage.
percentage of homeschoolers are going to make it possible for millions of
single parent families to turn to homeschooling? The math just doesn't work
out.
So too bad for single parents?
Peggy
>With all due respect Sheila, I don't think your experience reflects the
> > You think everyone should homeschool? Wow.
>
> Yes. Definitely.
> I doubt that both parents MUST work long hours. I know people who
> live on incredibly low amounts of money. They live very modestly--no
> tv, no newspaper and magazine subscriptions, shop at discount grocery
> stores and never go out to eat. They're happy. One family I'm
> thinking of has 6 kids and one more on the way, and the dad is a
> janitor and bus driver. The other family is a 3 child family where
> the dad is an oil delivery man. These families are truly an
> inspiration to me. If they can do it on their incomes, there's no
> reason for both parents to work long hours.
reality of many, many poor people. I understand where you're coming from, in
my own life we take many of the same measures that your family does to allow
me to stay at home and for us to live on one income. But, many people, even if
they did take those measures and saved their money, would still not have
enough income or the option of letting one of the parents stay home with the
children. And sometimes, it is the hours worked, or the type of work, or the
insurance options that limit two parent families options. I could go on and
on. I have five siblings. Four of them were laid off in the last year with
this recession. What about high costs for living and food is going through the
roof? Millions of people don't have the money or access to basic health
insurance. When one of their kids gets sick enough for emergency treatment,
those that pay their bills end up paying through the nose to make up for a
lack of coverage.
>Millions of them? Homeschoolers are a small percentage of the whole, the small
> What about single parent families?
>
> I believe in community (non-government mandated community!)and I
> believe that the homeschooling families should be there for each
> other more than they are now. We should help those families who are
> single parent families and want their children home.
percentage of homeschoolers are going to make it possible for millions of
single parent families to turn to homeschooling? The math just doesn't work
out.
So too bad for single parents?
>I find it interesting that you use the word institution the way that you do.
> I know some single parents who
> > make monumental efforts to work jobs that allow them the time to
> homeschool
> > their children, but surely expecting all of them to do that is
> unfair and
> > unrealistic?
>
> Why is it unfair to say that people should choose to raise their
> children in the best possible way? And raising children in the best
> possible way doesn't include putting them in institutions.
> The biggest problem with the institution of public education isn'tI'm sorry, you lost me here. Maybe you can clarify?
> that it doesn't do a good enough job educating kids, but the fact
> that it is an institution.
Peggy
Tia Leschke
> We're trying to get a new law passed in PA so that we won't have toAsk him what happens to the schooled kids who don't get a certain score. Do
> do standardized testing in certain grades, yearly evaluations, yearly
> portfolios,etc. I was talking to my legislator last week and said
> that he won't vote for the bill as is (which would simply be a yearly
> notification law). He wants an ammendment that makes it necessary
> for periodic testing. He wants to make sure that kids are "learning
> what they are supposed to". I'm sure he's thinking along the line of
> knowing times tables by fourth grade, knowing how to read by the end
> of first grade, knowing what a noun and verb are, etc. And of course
> if these poor homeschooled children can't get a certain score on a
> standardized test they should be forced to attend public school.
they then have to be homeschooled?
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/02 12:47:59 PM Central Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:
wondered about... Most Amish send their children to school through the 8th
grade right? Do they send them to a local public school, or is it a church
based school in their community? How do the attendance laws affect them?
(leaving school in the 8th grade) Do they homeschool?
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> We're trying to get a new law passed in PA so that we won't have toGood luck with your new bill, I hope it goes through. Something I have always
> do standardized testing in certain grades, yearly evaluations, yearly
> portfolios,etc. I was talking to my legislator last week and said
> that he won't vote for the bill as is (which would simply be a yearly
> notification law). He wants an ammendment that makes it necessary
> for periodic testing. He wants to make sure that kids are "learning
> what they are supposed to". I'm sure he's thinking along the line of
> knowing times tables by fourth grade, knowing how to read by the end
> of first grade, knowing what a noun and verb are, etc. And of course
> if these poor homeschooled children can't get a certain score on a
> standardized test they should be forced to attend public school.
>
> Sheila
wondered about... Most Amish send their children to school through the 8th
grade right? Do they send them to a local public school, or is it a church
based school in their community? How do the attendance laws affect them?
(leaving school in the 8th grade) Do they homeschool?
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Mon, 07 Oct 2002 14:24:53 -0000 "kayb85" <sheran@...> writes:
"well-educated". To me, that implies a high degree of literacy, an
understanding of higher mathematics, a familiarity with at least some of
the classics, and some degree of general understanding of the history of
the world and the science behind it. I grew up in Ohio, my extended
family is mostly still there, and this wasn't my experience of the Amish.
I don't know of any well-known Amish authors, or scientists.
Which is all fine - I don't think people should have to learn these
things, and clearly many people live happy, productive lives without
knowing them. I just wouldn't call them well-educated.
Dar
> What do you learn past 8th grade material that you really need inThat wasn't the question. The question was whether they were
> real life? Do you really think that college is that important?
"well-educated". To me, that implies a high degree of literacy, an
understanding of higher mathematics, a familiarity with at least some of
the classics, and some degree of general understanding of the history of
the world and the science behind it. I grew up in Ohio, my extended
family is mostly still there, and this wasn't my experience of the Amish.
I don't know of any well-known Amish authors, or scientists.
Which is all fine - I don't think people should have to learn these
things, and clearly many people live happy, productive lives without
knowing them. I just wouldn't call them well-educated.
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/02 8:49:27 AM, sheran@... writes:
<< Why is it unfair to say that people should choose to raise their
children in the best possible way? And raising children in the best
possible way doesn't include putting them in institutions. >>
Because many people are ignorant, hateful, mean, messed up, alcoholic, drug
abusing, sexually perverted assholes and their kids are better off in school
for part of the time where they meet some decent humans, make some friends
whose parents are not all or some of the above.
Some moms are crushed by emotional trauma and can hardly get up to go to the
bathroom, let alone provide their children a happy place where they want to
be all day.
Some moms are dead, their husbands are working really hard in dirty jobs that
last from 5:00 til dark, and they're afraid to leave little girls alone.
There are LOTS of reasons school could be good for a child. School is better
than lots and lots of things.
What unschoolers do will eventually change the schools. The fact that
homeschooling exsts has already caused many states to provide online charter
schools, so that kids can be home and the schools still get their cut. THAT
is a huge step forward. I know homeschoolers complain about it, and I just
this morning pointed out (by phone) to someone that a charter school online
was still public school in essence.
But homeschooling is not better than anything in the world. School can be a
haven and a place of light. It's all relative.
Sandra
<< Why is it unfair to say that people should choose to raise their
children in the best possible way? And raising children in the best
possible way doesn't include putting them in institutions. >>
Because many people are ignorant, hateful, mean, messed up, alcoholic, drug
abusing, sexually perverted assholes and their kids are better off in school
for part of the time where they meet some decent humans, make some friends
whose parents are not all or some of the above.
Some moms are crushed by emotional trauma and can hardly get up to go to the
bathroom, let alone provide their children a happy place where they want to
be all day.
Some moms are dead, their husbands are working really hard in dirty jobs that
last from 5:00 til dark, and they're afraid to leave little girls alone.
There are LOTS of reasons school could be good for a child. School is better
than lots and lots of things.
What unschoolers do will eventually change the schools. The fact that
homeschooling exsts has already caused many states to provide online charter
schools, so that kids can be home and the schools still get their cut. THAT
is a huge step forward. I know homeschoolers complain about it, and I just
this morning pointed out (by phone) to someone that a charter school online
was still public school in essence.
But homeschooling is not better than anything in the world. School can be a
haven and a place of light. It's all relative.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/7/02 10:10:23 AM, sheran@... writes:
<< The only thing school does for the kids we're
talking about is keep them away from bad parenting for part of most
weekdays. >>
That's a big thing.
It gives them access to books, to nicer people, to adults who have been to
college, and maybe who have travelled. They get to hear live music, maybe.
Some people grow to adulthood never hearing live music.
Sandra
<< The only thing school does for the kids we're
talking about is keep them away from bad parenting for part of most
weekdays. >>
That's a big thing.
It gives them access to books, to nicer people, to adults who have been to
college, and maybe who have travelled. They get to hear live music, maybe.
Some people grow to adulthood never hearing live music.
Sandra
Myranda
They usually have a small schoolhouse built, and one of the ladies is the teacher. Sometimes they use their church for a schoolhouse, but not usually. They do not have to follow the state's laws regarding anything, including school. Some of them homeschool, but it's usually an older girl in the family that does the teaching in that case, and they usually only homeschool if there are medical reasons to do so.
Myranda
Good luck with your new bill, I hope it goes through. Something I have always
wondered about... Most Amish send their children to school through the 8th
grade right? Do they send them to a local public school, or is it a church
based school in their community? How do the attendance laws affect them?
(leaving school in the 8th grade) Do they homeschool?
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Myranda
Good luck with your new bill, I hope it goes through. Something I have always
wondered about... Most Amish send their children to school through the 8th
grade right? Do they send them to a local public school, or is it a church
based school in their community? How do the attendance laws affect them?
(leaving school in the 8th grade) Do they homeschool?
~Nancy
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