Mary Bianco

>From: Kelli Traaseth <kellitraas@...>


<<Oh, Mary and Sandra, it really is refreshing to hear such nice things
about having children. I feel like I am so surrounded by people who really
don't enjoy their kids!
When I was younger I only heard grandmas and grandpas saying things like
that, why is it that it takes alot of people so many years to actually see
that these children we have are so precious? I'm glad I've realized this at
this age and I'm just turning 35 this month, that's not too old? Is it?? I
feel really old sometimes, especially lately when my kids are staying up
later and later, new bedtime rules and they are loving it!!! Now if I can
handle it!>>


You know I have heard people say such awful things about families having
more than one or two kids. I'm amazed everytime I hear it. I remember when I
was pregnant with Joseph and was at school to pick up Tara. She was 9 at the
time and I had seen one of the mom's of one of her classmates. Hadn't seen
her in awhile and she was aghast at my obvious state. Looked at me in horror
and very serioulsy asked me if I was nuts having another kid. How she just
couldn't imagine having more than one. I was horrified that she would
actually verbalize those thoughts, especially to my face. Needless to say, I
was pregnant with Sierra 4 months after Joseph was born and people really
thought I had totally lost it. This was coming from friends and family at
the time. I had lost a baby after Sierra was born and even my in laws just
dubbed me fertile mrytle and told me not to worry about the loss. Nice
family huh??

I was so happy when I found my homeschool support group here. Just wonderful
loving thoughts for the kids and families. And when I was having Alyssa at
the age of 42, my hs group was so supportive and embraced the birth with us
all. Encouraged me so much and don't even look at me with a blink of an eye
when I express my thoughts of wanting another baby. What a difference it
made for me. I still have people look at me with shock when they see the 4
little gold kids hanging around my neck.

Then I drop my kids off once a week for a few hours of homeschool sports
camp and see the moms with 5, 6 and 7 kids and just smile with a bit of
envy.

Mary B




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
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sal3school

Boy, my first Email I have read tonight and a wonderful one at that! Let me
tell you my horrible experience today...I was coming out of Costco holding
the baby and my 3 yo daughter's hand when we stopped to look at The Blue
Angels flying over(Airshow in town). Anyway it took maybe a grand total of a
minute or less. We started to resume our walking to the parking lot and
there was a lady in front of my daughter(to my right) with her cart and we
were blocking her way. She gave me the dirtiest look and it just came to me
and Iblurted out'Patience is a virtue!" She got so mad she slammed her hand
in the garbage can. I was like 'WOA' and had to calm myself down by saying a
prayer. I have had so many people say 'Is this it', 'Are you done?' etc Even
my dad saying 'Oh, what are you trying to do-start a ballteam?' Then the
other day these 2 women proudly announced in our MOPS group that their
husbands were going for Vasectomies and everyone laughed-well not me! I felt
so sad, and wondered how I could influence/encourage others to have more
children. Yes, everyone has their own life to live, but society plays such a
part, even Christian families that are supposed to follow God's laws to
multiply. I don't know if this is a Christian loop, but this is a part of my
life. Anyway, God has put it on my heart to look at my children with His
eyes, loving eyes and to see their qualities and the gifts He has given
them. I want to encourage my children and that is why I subscribed to
Unschooling.
Has anyone read the book'Homeschooling Our Children, Unschooling Ourselves?"
by Allison McKee. I am just starting it and it's great so far!
Also, speaking of large families has anyone seen/read the magazine 'Joyful'?
All about large families etc.
Sorry a long one...Amy Mother to 4 children and open to more. Thank You also
for the encouragement of having kids after 40!
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Bianco <mummyone24@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:37 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] little ones growing


> >From: Kelli Traaseth <kellitraas@...>
>
>
> <<Oh, Mary and Sandra, it really is refreshing to hear such nice things
> about having children. I feel like I am so surrounded by people who
really
> don't enjoy their kids!
> When I was younger I only heard grandmas and grandpas saying things like
> that, why is it that it takes alot of people so many years to actually see
> that these children we have are so precious? I'm glad I've realized this
at
> this age and I'm just turning 35 this month, that's not too old? Is it??
I
> feel really old sometimes, especially lately when my kids are staying up
> later and later, new bedtime rules and they are loving it!!! Now if I can
> handle it!>>
>
>
> You know I have heard people say such awful things about families having
> more than one or two kids. I'm amazed everytime I hear it. I remember when
I
> was pregnant with Joseph and was at school to pick up Tara. She was 9 at
the
> time and I had seen one of the mom's of one of her classmates. Hadn't seen
> her in awhile and she was aghast at my obvious state. Looked at me in
horror
> and very serioulsy asked me if I was nuts having another kid. How she just
> couldn't imagine having more than one. I was horrified that she would
> actually verbalize those thoughts, especially to my face. Needless to say,
I
> was pregnant with Sierra 4 months after Joseph was born and people really
> thought I had totally lost it. This was coming from friends and family at
> the time. I had lost a baby after Sierra was born and even my in laws just
> dubbed me fertile mrytle and told me not to worry about the loss. Nice
> family huh??
>
> I was so happy when I found my homeschool support group here. Just
wonderful
> loving thoughts for the kids and families. And when I was having Alyssa at
> the age of 42, my hs group was so supportive and embraced the birth with
us
> all. Encouraged me so much and don't even look at me with a blink of an
eye
> when I express my thoughts of wanting another baby. What a difference it
> made for me. I still have people look at me with shock when they see the 4
> little gold kids hanging around my neck.
>
> Then I drop my kids off once a week for a few hours of homeschool sports
> camp and see the moms with 5, 6 and 7 kids and just smile with a bit of
> envy.
>
> Mary B
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

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kayb85

Yes, everyone has their own life to live, but society plays such a
> part, even Christian families that are supposed to follow God's
laws to
> multiply. I don't know if this is a Christian loop, but this is a
part of my
> life.

Hi Amy! No, it's not a Christian group but there are a few
Christians on it. I'm a Christian mom of 3 kids, and I think it
would be really cool if God has more children planned for my future!

I don't agree that we are under any laws to multiply, since I believe
we're under grace, not under law. But I do believe that the Bible
teaches a general attitude of valuing and desiring children rather
than wanting to get rid of them whenever we can and trying not to
have them. I think it's sad how society devalues children and puts
value on things that don't really matter (money, career status)

Have you checked out the quiverfull email list? It sounds like a
list you might enjoy.

Anyway, God has put it on my heart to look at my children with His
> eyes, loving eyes and to see their qualities and the gifts He has
given
> them. I want to encourage my children and that is why I subscribed
to
> Unschooling.

Me too!


Sheila

Myranda

I have 3 children, and I want at least one more. I'd really like to have 6, but DH isn't that crazy about any more at all. Every single time I go into town or to family's house, I get some variation or the question "Aren't you done yet?". I've yet to see a happy or even accepting face when I answer "nope, not yet".
Myranda

Boy, my first Email I have read tonight and a wonderful one at that! Let me
tell you my horrible experience today...I was coming out of Costco holding
the baby and my 3 yo daughter's hand when we stopped to look at The Blue
Angels flying over(Airshow in town). Anyway it took maybe a grand total of a
minute or less. We started to resume our walking to the parking lot and
there was a lady in front of my daughter(to my right) with her cart and we
were blocking her way. She gave me the dirtiest look and it just came to me
and Iblurted out'Patience is a virtue!" She got so mad she slammed her hand
in the garbage can. I was like 'WOA' and had to calm myself down by saying a
prayer. I have had so many people say 'Is this it', 'Are you done?' etc Even
my dad saying 'Oh, what are you trying to do-start a ballteam?' Then the
other day these 2 women proudly announced in our MOPS group that their
husbands were going for Vasectomies and everyone laughed-well not me! I felt
so sad, and wondered how I could influence/encourage others to have more
children. Yes, everyone has their own life to live, but society plays such a
part, even Christian families that are supposed to follow God's laws to
multiply. I don't know if this is a Christian loop, but this is a part of my
life. Anyway, God has put it on my heart to look at my children with His
eyes, loving eyes and to see their qualities and the gifts He has given
them. I want to encourage my children and that is why I subscribed to
Unschooling.
Has anyone read the book'Homeschooling Our Children, Unschooling Ourselves?"
by Allison McKee. I am just starting it and it's great so far!
Also, speaking of large families has anyone seen/read the magazine 'Joyful'?
All about large families etc.
Sorry a long one...Amy Mother to 4 children and open to more. Thank You also
for the encouragement of having kids after 40!
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Bianco <mummyone24@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:37 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] little ones growing


> >From: Kelli Traaseth <kellitraas@...>
>
>
> <<Oh, Mary and Sandra, it really is refreshing to hear such nice things
> about having children. I feel like I am so surrounded by people who
really
> don't enjoy their kids!
> When I was younger I only heard grandmas and grandpas saying things like
> that, why is it that it takes alot of people so many years to actually see
> that these children we have are so precious? I'm glad I've realized this
at
> this age and I'm just turning 35 this month, that's not too old? Is it??
I
> feel really old sometimes, especially lately when my kids are staying up
> later and later, new bedtime rules and they are loving it!!! Now if I can
> handle it!>>
>
>
> You know I have heard people say such awful things about families having
> more than one or two kids. I'm amazed everytime I hear it. I remember when
I
> was pregnant with Joseph and was at school to pick up Tara. She was 9 at
the
> time and I had seen one of the mom's of one of her classmates. Hadn't seen
> her in awhile and she was aghast at my obvious state. Looked at me in
horror
> and very serioulsy asked me if I was nuts having another kid. How she just
> couldn't imagine having more than one. I was horrified that she would
> actually verbalize those thoughts, especially to my face. Needless to say,
I
> was pregnant with Sierra 4 months after Joseph was born and people really
> thought I had totally lost it. This was coming from friends and family at
> the time. I had lost a baby after Sierra was born and even my in laws just
> dubbed me fertile mrytle and told me not to worry about the loss. Nice
> family huh??
>
> I was so happy when I found my homeschool support group here. Just
wonderful
> loving thoughts for the kids and families. And when I was having Alyssa at
> the age of 42, my hs group was so supportive and embraced the birth with
us
> all. Encouraged me so much and don't even look at me with a blink of an
eye
> when I express my thoughts of wanting another baby. What a difference it
> made for me. I still have people look at me with shock when they see the 4
> little gold kids hanging around my neck.
>
> Then I drop my kids off once a week for a few hours of homeschool sports
> camp and see the moms with 5, 6 and 7 kids and just smile with a bit of
> envy.
>
> Mary B
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

-------------------------------------------
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~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~

If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).

To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

I felt
> so sad, and wondered how I could influence/encourage others to have more
> children.

I'm wondering how this is any different from other people giving your static
about your own childbearing choices.

>Yes, everyone has their own life to live, but society plays such a
> part, even Christian families that are supposed to follow God's laws to
> multiply.

Isn't that what Andrea Yates thought she was doing?

>I don't know if this is a Christian loop, but this is a part of my
> life.

This isn't a Christian list, but Christians are welcome.

> Has anyone read the book'Homeschooling Our Children, Unschooling
Ourselves?"
> by Allison McKee. I am just starting it and it's great so far!


> Also, speaking of large families has anyone seen/read the magazine
'Joyful'?
> All about large families etc.

My daughter might be interested in this one as long as it isn't overtly
Christian.
Tia

kayb85

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Tia Leschke" <leschke@i...> wrote:
> I felt
> > so sad, and wondered how I could influence/encourage others to
have more
> > children.
>
> I'm wondering how this is any different from other people giving
your static
> about your own childbearing choices.

It really isn't different, but we've all felt this I'm sure. How
many times do you hear someone say that they can't wait until school
starts so they can get rid of the kids all day? Don't you just want
to try to make them see what a joy it can be to have the children
home with you? Or when you hear someone yelling and screaming at
their kids to get their homework done and you see a child in tears
sitting at a table slaving away at his homework, don't you just want
to tell that mom that there's a better way? That's exactly how I
feel when I hear someone say that they're so happy their husbands are
getting vasecamies, or that they want to get their tubes tied, or
just that they are "done". I want them to know what a joy many
children can be!

> >Yes, everyone has their own life to live, but society plays such a
> > part, even Christian families that are supposed to follow God's
laws to
> > multiply.
>
> Isn't that what Andrea Yates thought she was doing?

That's not fair. Andrea Yates also homeschooled. So when people
hear that we homeschool, do we want them to say, "Isn't that what
Andrea Yates did?" Just because Andrea Yates believed that God
wanted her to have a big family and she killed her kids doesn't mean
that people who believe God wants them to have a big family are
wrong. All it means is that Andrea Yates was wrong to kill her kids.
I believe God wants me to have a big family and I'm certainly not
about to kill my children.

> > Also, speaking of large families has anyone seen/read the magazine
> 'Joyful'?
> > All about large families etc.
>
> My daughter might be interested in this one as long as it isn't
overtly
> Christian.

It is. To check out the magazine, go to http://www.quiverfull.com/,
then on the left hand side click on related links, and the joyful
noise magazine link is about halfway down that list.

Sheila

Tia Leschke

> > I'm wondering how this is any different from other people giving
> your static
> > about your own childbearing choices.
>
> It really isn't different, but we've all felt this I'm sure. How
> many times do you hear someone say that they can't wait until school
> starts so they can get rid of the kids all day? Don't you just want
> to try to make them see what a joy it can be to have the children
> home with you? Or when you hear someone yelling and screaming at
> their kids to get their homework done and you see a child in tears
> sitting at a table slaving away at his homework, don't you just want
> to tell that mom that there's a better way? That's exactly how I
> feel when I hear someone say that they're so happy their husbands are
> getting vasecamies, or that they want to get their tubes tied, or
> just that they are "done". I want them to know what a joy many
> children can be!

Oh, I see where you're coming from. I also wish I could help people see
that the children they already have could be a joy to them instead of a
burden. But I wouldn't make any attempt to convince someone to have more or
even any if that wasn't what they wanted. This earth is having enough
trouble coping with what the people here now are doing to it. If only the
people who really wanted to had children, there'd be plenty of room for big
families. There are still too many people having children because it's
what's done, or because they think they should, or because their religion
says to, or because they think children will make them happy or save their
marriage, or whatever other reason other than really enjoying children.
>

> >
> > Isn't that what Andrea Yates thought she was doing?
>
> That's not fair. Andrea Yates also homeschooled. So when people
> hear that we homeschool, do we want them to say, "Isn't that what
> Andrea Yates did?" Just because Andrea Yates believed that God
> wanted her to have a big family and she killed her kids doesn't mean
> that people who believe God wants them to have a big family are
> wrong. All it means is that Andrea Yates was wrong to kill her kids.
> I believe God wants me to have a big family and I'm certainly not
> about to kill my children.

I'm sure you aren't. But you haven't been told that having more children is
almost certain to cause more severe post-partum depression than you've
already suffered, have you? I don't remember ever hearing that she wanted
to have that last baby. It was all about how she and her husband thought
she was *supposed* to have more. I'm against people being encouraged or
even guilted into having more children than they really want. It's no
different than guilting people for having more than society currently says
is the "right" number.
Tia

Peggy

You wrote:

> It really isn't different, but we've all felt this I'm sure. How
> many times do you hear someone say that they can't wait until school
> starts so they can get rid of the kids all day? Don't you just want
> to try to make them see what a joy it can be to have the children
> home with you? Or when you hear someone yelling and screaming at
> their kids to get their homework done and you see a child in tears
> sitting at a table slaving away at his homework, don't you just want
> to tell that mom that there's a better way? That's exactly how I
> feel when I hear someone say that they're so happy their husbands are
> getting vasecamies, or that they want to get their tubes tied, or
> just that they are "done". I want them to know what a joy many
> children can be!


I guess since I come from a big family I see this a bit differently. Children
have needs: emotional, spiritual, and physical. Meeting those needs fully
takes a whole, mature and secure parenting unit. What I've seen in a lot of
big families, not all by any means, but many of them, is that the needs of the
parents come first. The older children end up parenting the younger children
and the older children do not usually have the experience, wisdom, or strength
to parent the younger children in the family in the way that children deserve
to be parented. Many children in big families do not get enough of a parent's
time or energy. This was probably just as true in the past as it is today, but
in the past at least food wasn't as expensive or supportive help as hard to
get and keep.

In this day and age, they must also be financially secure. If one doesn't have
enough money then life is a daily struggle: teeth don't get fixed and children
don't get taken to doctors when they need it. I have met many children of
large families who choose to have no or few children just because they learned
close up just what those restrictions can mean to the individual. I also know
parents of families who loved the baby years but find the older teen years a
living hell and although they love all of their children, acknowledge that
they really didn't understand how difficult, both emotionally and financially,
raising so many children to adulthood would be.

There are happy, wonderful, strong, secure big families out there, but, they
are also the ones with the resources, both emotional and financial, to support
them. Just as a having a partner doesn't make one whole, having a child
doesn't make one mature and responsible. We need to do the work on ourselves
so that we can give to others rather than take. Too many people have children
and use them to meet their own needs. We see these walking wounded around us
daily. Maybe we were those walking wounded ourselves and have worked years to
grow and mature to the point where we can give instead of just take. Bringing
life into this world should never be just about how it makes US feel. And
let's be honest, most of us here have had and nursed babies. Those hormones
are powerful. They make us feel GOOD. But being responsible is more than
keeping those baby hormones going. Maybe some young mothers don't even realize
just how powerful those hormones are?


Are those who advocate for large families really concerned with the growth of
each individual to its maximum potential? Or are their motives based in the
fear "other" and so they encourage the increase of "us" against "them"? I
think it is natural to be concerned about "other". I think we all have a bit
of this fear inside of us. I absolutely believe that each family has the right
to determine how many children they will have, but I also believe that they
have the obligation to parent each child in their family so that their
emotional, spiritual, and physical needs are met. The lord might provide, but
he does it through us with our hard work.

Peggy

kayb85

There are still too many people having children because it's
> what's done, or because they think they should, or because their
religion
> says to, or because they think children will make them happy or
save their
> marriage, or whatever other reason other than really enjoying
children.


I do agree with that. But, being a great believer in holistic
health, I'd say that people who are having children for those reasons
and not really enjoying their children have some emotional healing to
do. It's not the having children that's bad, it's the not enjoying
them. You wouldn't tell someone with a broken leg to just stop
walking because his leg hurts, you tell them to go get the broken
bone set and a cast on it. I think it's the same thing with people
who don't enjoy their children, have no desire to be with their
children or have any more children. It's not the having children
part that's wrong, it's something more emotionally that the parents
need to deal with.


> I'm sure you aren't. But you haven't been told that having more
children is
> almost certain to cause more severe post-partum depression than
you've
> already suffered, have you? I don't remember ever hearing that she
wanted
> to have that last baby. It was all about how she and her husband
thought
> she was *supposed* to have more. I'm against people being
encouraged or
> even guilted into having more children than they really want.


I'm against guilting people into having more children than they
really want. I'm even against encouraging people to have more
children than they really want. What I do think is good is to
encourage people to see what a joy being with your kids can be. To
see children as blessings rather than burdens. To heal emotionally
so that they can see that those female hormones that make us want to
desire more children are a good, natural thing.

The problem with Andrea wasn't having another baby, it was the
depression. She needed to heal from the depression.

Sheila

Mary Bianco

<<It really isn't different, but we've all felt this I'm sure. How
many times do you hear someone say that they can't wait until school
starts so they can get rid of the kids all day? Don't you just want
to try to make them see what a joy it can be to have the children
home with you? Or when you hear someone yelling and screaming at
their kids to get their homework done and you see a child in tears
sitting at a table slaving away at his homework, don't you just want
to tell that mom that there's a better way? That's exactly how I
feel when I hear someone say that they're so happy their husbands are
getting vasecamies, or that they want to get their tubes tied, or
just that they are "done". I want them to know what a joy many
children can be!>>


Well actually for me, the answer to those questions is a big no. When I hear
all those things, and I do often enough, I just think how sad for the kids.
But thinking and hearing the parents, I think that maybe the kids are better
off going to school than being home. When I hear people talk of how could
one bear to have more than one or two kids, I think how lucky this world is
that those parents don't have more. I have no inner need to try and convert
anyone. I think their words speak very loudly to how their circumstances
shouldn't change.

Mary B




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Tia Leschke

> I do agree with that. But, being a great believer in holistic
> health, I'd say that people who are having children for those reasons
> and not really enjoying their children have some emotional healing to
> do. It's not the having children that's bad, it's the not enjoying
> them. You wouldn't tell someone with a broken leg to just stop
> walking because his leg hurts, you tell them to go get the broken
> bone set and a cast on it. I think it's the same thing with people
> who don't enjoy their children, have no desire to be with their
> children or have any more children. It's not the having children
> part that's wrong, it's something more emotionally that the parents
> need to deal with.

I think that's probably true in many cases. But I don't believe that a
person who doesn't want children at all or only wants one or two is
necessarily emotionally wounded. For some people, been there done that
happens after one or two. For others it happens when the kids stop
happening. Who's to say one is better than the other.
>

> I'm against guilting people into having more children than they
> really want. I'm even against encouraging people to have more
> children than they really want. What I do think is good is to
> encourage people to see what a joy being with your kids can be. To
> see children as blessings rather than burdens.

To this point, I agree with you, and helping people to experience that joy
would help so many children.

To heal emotionally
> so that they can see that those female hormones that make us want to
> desire more children are a good, natural thing.

This is where we part company. For one thing, not everyone seems to
experience those hormones as a desire for children. I don't believe that
everyone who lacks that desire is in need of emotional healing, though I'm
sure some are.
>
> The problem with Andrea wasn't having another baby, it was the
> depression. She needed to heal from the depression.

And the only way she was going to be able to do that was to not experience
those hormone floods after birth. Maybe she could have coped in a few
years. Who knows? But she certainly wasn't able to at that time. What I
got from all those news stories was that she (or her husband) felt it would
be *wrong* to delay another child.
Tia

Stephanie Elms

> It really isn't different, but we've all felt this I'm sure. How
> many times do you hear someone say that they can't wait until school
> starts so they can get rid of the kids all day? Don't you just want
> to try to make them see what a joy it can be to have the children
> home with you? Or when you hear someone yelling and screaming at
> their kids to get their homework done and you see a child in tears
> sitting at a table slaving away at his homework, don't you just want
> to tell that mom that there's a better way? That's exactly how I
> feel when I hear someone say that they're so happy their husbands are
> getting vasecamies, or that they want to get their tubes tied, or
> just that they are "done". I want them to know what a joy many
> children can be!

Just wanted to let you know that not all women whose husbands are getting
vasectomies are so happy (and yes, I am sure that we are done, it was
a mutual decision). I know that this is the right decision for us (for
a lot of different reasons) but there is a part of me that is mourning the
fact that I will never have another baby grow inside me, that I will never
nurse another newborn (luckily my 2.5 yo is still going!). It is sad for
me to contemplate as I am moving out of this phase of my life.

In deciding to stop with 2 kids, I struggled with my feeling that people who
really love kids have a lot of them (after all 2 is how many you are "supposed"
to have), but have since realized that it is not a competition. I absolutely
and thoroughly love being with my kids and I know moms with 3 or more kids
who weaned early (not because of problems, just did not seem to enjoy it or
see the need), send their 1 and 2 yos to mothers day out, can't wait for
their kids to go to kindergarten and can't wait for the summer to be over
so the kids go back to school.

But I understand what you are saying...when you have something that is so basic
to your happiness it is hard to understand how others can not see it. I feel that
way about hsing...I can't understand how my friends do not see how much fun this
is and how much sense it makes. And you want to convince them all!

So enjoy your family (and may it grow as large as you want it!) and rest assured
that not all of us with smaller families were just glad to get it over with. I
will always treasure my early memories with my boys, and although I will probably
always have a small piece of me that misses that newborn time, I also know that our
family is complete and happy. :o)

Stephanie E.

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/5/02 11:14:54 AM Central Daylight Time,
leschke@... writes:


> >I don't know if this is a Christian loop, but this is a part of my
> > life.
>
> This isn't a Christian list, but Christians are welcome.
>

And to clarify, it isn't a Christian list, nor is it a Jewish or Buddhist or
Pagan or Muslim or ... list either. It is an unschooling list that
encompasses everyone. :o)
~Nancy


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Gerard Westenberg

<What I've seen in a lot ofbig families, not all by any means, but many of them, is that the needs of the
parents come first. The older children end up parenting the younger children>

I guess we have a large family - seven children...I, too, see many large familes where the older kids do a lot of work - a lot of chores, taking on many responsibilties...When my dh and I talked about having a large famly, I was really aware of the above fact and decided that my kids wouldn't do any extra chores, unless it was by choice, and that I or dh would be the ones doing the daily things with the younger ones...Having a large family mindfully means less time/money for me by myself , atm ,as a person, because of the choices I have made - and that is okay with me! Its not forever. ...I also get the fun of being around some geat kids, of different ages. :-) And that was one reason why I wanted large family- I grew up in a small family and I used to enjoy the fun my friends in large families had...My boys have the same sort of fun, there is always someone around to do something with...Leonie W.




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Gerard Westenberg

< Has anyone read the book'Homeschooling Our Children, Unschooling
Ourselves?"> by Allison McKee. I am just starting it and it's great so far!>

I have just finished it - and I am now going to buy my own copy! Its a good books, if only because of the honesty - McKee shares her difficulties in trusting children and how, when she did trust, she saw her children each blossom in different ways...I have a preference for personal stories, too - and this is, basically, their personal account of unschooling...Leonie W.




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kayb85

The hormones that were causing post partum depression could have been
cured. There are homeopathic remedies that treat people with post
partum depression and even remedies that treat people who feel that
there is something wrong with their children so they should kill
them.

Sheila


> And the only way she was going to be able to do that was to not
experience
> those hormone floods after birth. Maybe she could have coped in a
few
> years. Who knows? But she certainly wasn't able to at that time.
What I
> got from all those news stories was that she (or her husband) felt
it would
> be *wrong* to delay another child.
> Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/5/02 7:42:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Just because Andrea Yates believed that God
wanted her to have a big family and she killed her kids doesn't mean
that people who believe God wants them to have a big family are
wrong >>

The point is, did Andrea Yates feel she had any choice?
People who blindly follow what they believe is Gods law, with no regard to
self preservation or need, end up in bad situations.
A Mom that believes she must do something in order to obey God, but isn't
doing it from the heart, is in a dangerous position. Or at least in a
miserable one often times.
It's wrong to make people believe something is Gods law, when it isn't AND it
goes totally against what is right and good for that person.
If you CHOOSE to have a big family, that choice will probably make you very
happy and blessed. If you are only doing it because you feel you have to,
what a terrible load to bear. That mother is not going to do the best for
those children either.

Ren

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/6/02 3:36:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< The hormones that were causing post partum depression could have been
cured. There are homeopathic remedies that treat people with post
partum depression and even remedies that treat people who feel that
there is something wrong with their children so they should kill
them. >>

Obviously, Andrea Yates is an extreme example. But I think it's rather
simplistic to say that she could just be cured with a homeopathic remedy. She
didn't want the baby to begin with, that is a huge warning sign.
Can homeopathic remedies make people want a baby they didn't want?
Don't answer that, we use homeopathic remedies here, I'm aware of how they
work.
Yes, it can cure hormone imbalance due to post partum stuff.
But you are forgetting that she had circumstances foisted upon her that she
didn't want.
The "cure" is to quit making women do things to please some angry God (which
I don't actually believe that he is an angry God, but apparently some do) or
their dh's without regards to their own health.

Ren

Troy Brown

How about a remedy for a selfish, totally unsupportive husband?? Her
husband had never even *changed a diaper*. From what I've read, it was all
about him, and what he wanted. I know that when my three (only three!) kids
were little I felt like there was nothing I could do well. That gets better
with time, but this woman had NO BREAKS. Don't get me started...
Troy

>
>The hormones that were causing post partum depression could have been
>cured. There are homeopathic remedies that treat people with post
>partum depression and even remedies that treat people who feel that
>there is something wrong with their children so they should kill
>them.
>
>Sheila
>


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Lisa M. C. Bentley

> I felt
> so sad, and wondered how I could influence/encourage others to have more
> children.

*I* don't think that we should encourage others to have more children.
I think that the parents who are happy about the vasectomies SHOULD NOT
have more children. We have the responsiblity as good parents to not
bring more children into this world that we can't provide for. This
means emotionally and educationally as well as financially. Clearly,
those who don't want more children, should NOT have more children. Why
would we want more unwanted children in this world? We need to enjoy
and appreciate and honor and provide for the children that already exist
before adding more to the lot! Wonderful for you that your family is
capable of this. Most families are not.

For the longest time I thought that I wanted 3 children. Now that I
have two, I am strongly believing more and more every day that 2 is my
personal limit. I love my children with everything in me. I spend
practically 24 hours a day with them and I treasure every second (even
those hard ones). However, I am realistic. My children wear me out.
My children cost A LOT! There are times with two when I am home alone
that I cannot physically meet both of their needs. How would I do this
with more than what I have?

I love seeing happy and healthy large families. Those that are
fulfilled seem SO fulfilled. I envy them. I look at them and see
children that aren't as demanding as mine and I think that perhaps that
is HOW their parents were capable of being good parents to the number of
children in their family.

I might be more capable of properly caring for more children in the
future. I'll keep that option open for a little while, but not for too
long since when I have an infant in the house my oldest gets neglected
and that is not fair to her. However, I am very concerned about the
world overpopulation problem and I can't justify another pregnancy for
me. If I have more children, it will be through adoption or an
accidental pregnancy (and I work very hard to make sure the latter won't
happen).

-Lisa in AZ

[email protected]

*Just wanted to let you know that not all women whose husbands are getting
vasectomies are so happy (and yes, I am sure that we are done, it was
a mutual decision). I know that this is the right decision for us (for
a lot of different reasons) but there is a part of me that is mourning the
fact that I will never have another baby grow inside me, that I will never
nurse another newborn (luckily my 2.5 yo is still going!). It is sad for
me to contemplate as I am moving out of this phase of my life.**



Just thought I would come out of lurkdom for a minute to expand further on
this. I just had my fourth (and sorry to say last) baby on the 13th of last
month. Dh is due to have a vasectomy this Friday and I can totally relate to
what Stephanie is saying. Even though I know this is the right thing for us
I can't help feeling a little sad. Dh thinks I am nuts, he can't comprehend
why a woman would want to go through it all over and over (I have great
pregnancies, but huge babies).

Being with my newborn is wonderful but in light of everything it seems almost
bittersweet to know that this is the last time I will ever experience this.
Just adding my thoughts, thanks for listening.

Mary P


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