[email protected]

In a message dated 10/2/02 9:20:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< but we
discovered that if you don't punish, they will not
learn. >>

Really? I totally disagree. Punishment is an external modem of control and
teaches absolutely nothing except the fact that bigger, stronger people can
control you.

Ren

DIANE HAWKINS

Spanking seems totally harsh? What Jaiden is doing to Avery is totally harsh. What about poor Avery?

Avery is going to be much more traumatized by the abuse at his brothers hand,that you are allowing,than

any trauma a spanking would cause Jaiden.

I have 5 children and am an extremely permissive parent,but one thing I have zero tolerance about is an

older sibling physically or mentally harming a younger sibling. I explain to them that I'll allow no one to

hurt any of my children and that includes them hurting each other.

Why Jaiden is doing it does not matter because there is no why that could justify him harming Avery.
please don't let him hurt Avery anymore.

diane


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephanie Elms

> Spanking seems totally harsh? What Jaiden is doing to Avery
> is totally harsh. What about poor Avery?
>
> Avery is going to be much more traumatized by the abuse at
> his brothers hand,that you are allowing,than
>
> any trauma a spanking would cause Jaiden.

No one said to let Jaiden keep hurting Avery. In fact someone said that
they should never be left in a room alone together. This will protect
Avery until it is worked out. So why resort to spanking if there
are other options.

>
> I have 5 children and am an extremely permissive parent,but
> one thing I have zero tolerance about is an
>
> older sibling physically or mentally harming a younger
> sibling. I explain to them that I'll allow no one to
>
> hurt any of my children and that includes them hurting each other.

Then why would you advocate spanking? No one can hurt them except
their parents? How does this reinforce your zero tolerance about
an older kid hurting a younger one? Kids learn by modeling. What
message does spanking model?
>
> Why Jaiden is doing it does not matter because there is no
> why that could justify him harming Avery.
> please don't let him hurt Avery anymore.

Ahhh. But the why is important. It is always important. When Kyle (my youngest)
was a couple of months old, every time I would put him on the floor, Jason would
come and throw his whole body on top of Kyle. Could not for the life of me
figure out why. I talked with Jason (who was 3) about it hurting him etc. Did not
stop him. I stopped putting Kyle on the floor if I was not around to keep Jason
off me. Sometime later, I was watching dh rough house with Jason...by lying on
top of him and having Jason try to get out. Now there is a HUGE difference between
a 35 yo man gently lying on top of his son while wrestling and a 3 yo lying on
top of a 2 month old, but obviously Jason was too little to understand. Once I made
the connection I was able to approach it from a different direction and Jason
gradually understood. If I had just spanked him to get him to stop, he would have
been extremely confused...after all he was just playing with Kyle like Daddy played
with him.

Yes, protecting Avery is the main importance. But what folks are saying is that this
can be down without hurting Jaiden in the process.

Stephanie

DIANE HAWKINS

Stephanie,

I don't spank my kids. I never said to spank him. I said that what he was doing to his little brother was worse than spanking. I've been reading this conversation for several days now and I haven't heard any concern for the victim.Yes,you need to try to find out why.Yes,you need to try to explain to him it's
wrong.but most importantly you need to tell him point blank that he CAN NOT hurt his little brother.
Tell him you wouldn't let anyone hurt him and you won't let anyone hurt his brother.I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.and maybe there are circumstances that I don't know about.My children still fight among themselves at times,but they never did it at that young of an age.



diane


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephanie Elms

> I don't spank my kids. I never said to spank him. I said that
> what he was doing to his little brother was worse than
> spanking. I've been reading this conversation for several
> days now and I haven't heard any concern for the
> victim.Yes,you need to try to find out why.Yes,you need to
> try to explain to him it's
> wrong.but most importantly you need to tell him point blank
> that he CAN NOT hurt his little brother.
> Tell him you wouldn't let anyone hurt him and you won't let
> anyone hurt his brother.I'm sorry if I gave the wrong
> impression.and maybe there are circumstances that I don't
> know about.My children still fight among themselves at
> times,but they never did it at that young of an age.

AHhh! Sorry for the misunderstanding. When I read your message it
really did sound like you were saying that what Jaiden was doing
was bad enough that he should get spanked.

I agree with you that Avery needs to be protected and Jaiden needs
to know that it is unacceptable to hurt him. But there are other things
that his mom can try as well.

Stephanie E.

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/3/02 3:18:30 AM, momma60@... writes:

<< I've been reading this conversation for several days now and I haven't
heard any concern for the victim. >>

I thought that was a totally understood premise in every comment made.

Separate the kids and then...
Safety of all includes EVERYONE in the situation.
Peace in the family means peace for all of them.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/3/02 12:06:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Why Jaiden is doing it does not matter >>

It matters hugely! It also matters that Avery is kept safe, while the
analyzing is going on. No one is saying that the younger one should be
allowed to be hurt.
But shaming the older one, or saying it doesn't matter will only make things
worse and harm the childs phsyche in the process.

Ren

Elissa Cleaveland

Diane, I'm confused. Are you advocating that she
spank?
Elissa Jill


--- DIANE HAWKINS <momma60@...> wrote:
> Spanking seems totally harsh? What Jaiden is doing
> to Avery is totally harsh. What about poor Avery?
>
> Avery is going to be much more traumatized by the
> abuse at his brothers hand,that you are
> allowing,than
>
> any trauma a spanking would cause Jaiden.
>


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Rachel Ann

I think we often get stuck in a mind set that it is either or. Sort of like the concept of justice and mercy. Neither really can stand on their own, without each other they don't make sense. Literally justice without mercy isn't justice, and mercy without justice isn't mercy. They are mockeries of themselves.

Same with this type of situation. Why matters, and stopping the behaviour matters. It is normally not very conducive to finding out why a behaviour is happening while it is going on since the person is too involved with the actual behaviour to think about it. So it has to stop, and in some cases consequences...loss of the toy, temporarily, may be applied. But the why helps prevent the behaviour in the future...or at least gives one a leg up in stopping it more quickly.

be well,
Rachel Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: starsuncloud@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:48 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] needs vs. wants


In a message dated 10/3/02 12:06:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Why Jaiden is doing it does not matter >>

It matters hugely! It also matters that Avery is kept safe, while the
analyzing is going on. No one is saying that the younger one should be
allowed to be hurt.
But shaming the older one, or saying it doesn't matter will only make things
worse and harm the childs phsyche in the process.

Ren

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

MO Milligans

At 05:26 AM 10/3/02 -0400, DIANE HAWKINS wrote:

>I've been reading this conversation for several days now and I haven't
>heard any concern for the victim.
==
I'm concerned, but I just assumed that he was "okay" :)

Todd
"Despite the high cost of living
it's still extremely popular!"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html

DIANE HAWKINS

Once again i have to stress that I was not suggesting that you spank Jaiden. Forgive me for the bad

choice of words. I don't believe in spanking. Trying to teach someone not to hit by hitting them is

preposterous. I am the younger of two children. I have an older brother that was resentful of the

attention I got, so I feel a strong connection with Avery.(my brother and I get along fine now.).

When I had my second child I just really made sure that my daughter didn't feel replaced. I brought her

a baby doll when I brought the baby home. and I also made her feel like her baby brother was her baby

too. He was an addition to the family not a replacement. One more person for her to love. I have been

fortunate with all my children in that area. I know we are all individuals,but first and foremost we are

a family unit.Our motto is all for one and one for all. That is one area I have succeeded with my children.

I must add I pray alot. I ask the Lord to take up my slack and he does every time.

Congratulations on your breakthrough with Jaiden.May God bless your family.

diane

p.s. it might help to tell him that as the baby gets older he won't need as much attentionand

you will have more time for Jaiden.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< << Why Jaiden is doing it does not matter >>

It matters hugely! It also matters that Avery is kept safe, while the
analyzing is going on. No one is saying that the younger one should be
allowed to be hurt.
But shaming the older one, or saying it doesn't matter will only make things
worse and harm the childs phsyche in the process. >>

With 581 unread e-mails, perhaps it is too soon for me to comment, but
whether others have said this or not, here's a consideration:

This is not an exact analogy. It's a separate and very real other
consideration:


==Why she hit her brother doesn't matter.==

If "never hit" is the forever rule, how will a child prevent sexual abuse?

Perhaps children should be encouraged to knee guys in the nuts and scream
like banshees *IF* the guy's nuts have been exposed and he has laid a hand or
a WORD on them in preparation to do something to them that is not okay.

Across-the-board rules like "Always do what adults tell you to do" and "NEVER
hit" are invitations to and preparations for disaster.

Sandra