Tools of convincing
MO Milligans
At 11:03 PM 9/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
Have you considered printing some of the better posts, and then just
leaving them lying around? :)
Todd
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free Will" -Rush (& Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>Slowly trying to prepare him for where==
>I am headed. I have found in the past that I have to drag him kicking
>and screaming sometimes, but he eventually comes around. Just drives me
>nuts in the meantime. He still is not 100% convinced about hsing (much
>less unschooling)
Have you considered printing some of the better posts, and then just
leaving them lying around? :)
Todd
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free Will" -Rush (& Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
Stephanie Elms
> ==Yeah. I have printed off some posts and usually leave them in the bathroom. ;o)
> Have you considered printing some of the better posts, and then just
> leaving them lying around? :)
>
I actually have started to feel sorry for the poor guy lately! I think that
sometimes he wishes that he married a more normal (mainstream) person. His dad
was navy and ran a very tight ship. They did not talk back to him or they would
get spanked. (The funny thing is that his dad is now the sweetest teddy bear of
a grandfather. My MIL has mentioned a few times that it is a shame that he could
not have relaxed and enjoyed his own boys as much as he enjoys his grandsons.) SO
Jeff really has a farther way to come to get to where I am. I know that there are
times when he does not feel like he has to explain himself and that Jason should
just do what he said because he said it. I am working on getting him to not take
Jason's actions so personally...they are not acts of defiance against him, but
rather very normal reactions from a little boy who is still learning. That
punishments are not the only way to teach him (and that in reality they do not
really do much to teach him at all).
In fact, I was talking with a friend of mine today about unschooling/un-tving/un-junk
fooding etc and it hit me that if kids learn better by observing and being in life,
then why can't this apply to learning right from wrong and other life lessons? I
think that I had been unconsciously viewing parenting as teaching them lessons
(about what to eat, how much tv to watch, how many toys to buy, how much money
to spend) and if I did not teach them, they would not learn. But I can see that
is not true. The past couple of days I have been trying to just enjoy them. To not
worry about whether they are watching too much tv or if Jason has been playing his
bionicle game on the computer for too long. And things seem to be going smoother.
I still have these nagging thoughts in my head however...things like kids need (and want)
parents to set the limits...that "good" parents are supposed to control tv viewing
and junk food etc etc etc. Still working on it though.
Thanks for listening...not sure if everything I wrote here makes sense or not!
Stephanie
MO Milligans
At 12:59 AM 9/25/02 -0400, you wrote:
Made sense to me :)
Todd
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free Will" -Rush (& Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>Thanks for listening...not sure if everything I wrote here makes sense or not!==
>
>Stephanie
Made sense to me :)
Todd
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free Will" -Rush (& Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/24/2002 9:59:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
stephanie.elms@... writes:
unschooling completely taking a passive approach to everything your child
does? Is there no decorum or discipline? Cuz if that is the case it makes
me think of the book "The Lord Of The Flies". I believe that one's
education and learning can have a relaxed attitude and atmosphere, but I also
believe that in life there are rights and wrongs and consequences for our
actions. It is all part of being in a society. Is there a point where one
can be so worried about not "schooling" that they forget that being taught
can also be a pleasurable or important thing and that teachers and being
taught are not the nemesis of home learners? Just pondering here as I try to
pick up on the subtle and not so subtle differences of the "homeschooling"
lifestyle.
Karmen M.
Washington State
wife to Steven 3-4-99
mother to Katie 5-17-99, Kamden 2-13-01, Kalen 5-4-02, Kirstin ??? 5-21-03
???
Proverbs 24:3-4 "By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is
established; through knowledge its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful
treasures.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stephanie.elms@... writes:
> In fact, I was talking with a friend of mine today aboutMaybe I have the wrong take on all of this, it is somewhat new to me, but is
> unschooling/un-tving/un-junk
> fooding etc and it hit me that if kids learn better by observing and being
> in life,
> then why can't this apply to learning right from wrong and other life
> lessons? I
> think that I had been unconsciously viewing parenting as teaching them
> lessons
> (about what to eat, how much tv to watch, how many toys to buy, how much
> money
> to spend) and if I did not teach them, they would not learn.
>
>
unschooling completely taking a passive approach to everything your child
does? Is there no decorum or discipline? Cuz if that is the case it makes
me think of the book "The Lord Of The Flies". I believe that one's
education and learning can have a relaxed attitude and atmosphere, but I also
believe that in life there are rights and wrongs and consequences for our
actions. It is all part of being in a society. Is there a point where one
can be so worried about not "schooling" that they forget that being taught
can also be a pleasurable or important thing and that teachers and being
taught are not the nemesis of home learners? Just pondering here as I try to
pick up on the subtle and not so subtle differences of the "homeschooling"
lifestyle.
Karmen M.
Washington State
wife to Steven 3-4-99
mother to Katie 5-17-99, Kamden 2-13-01, Kalen 5-4-02, Kirstin ??? 5-21-03
???
Proverbs 24:3-4 "By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is
established; through knowledge its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful
treasures.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Valerie
>> Maybe I have the wrong take on all of this, it is somewhat new tome, but is unschooling completely taking a passive approach to
everything your child does? Is there no decorum or discipline?
***** A passive approach worked for us. Laurie did as she pleased.
Since she could do as she pleased, it wasn't necessary for her to try
to defy rules or "get away with" something. She never had a moral
dilemma to deal with. Her only rules were that she couldn't hurt
herself or anyone else.
Cuz if that is the case it makes me think of the book "The Lord Of
The Flies". I believe that one's education and learning can have a
relaxed attitude and atmosphere, but I also believe that in life
there are rights and wrongs and consequences for our actions. It is
all part of being in a society.
***** One's education and learning with unschooling is relaxed. Think
of how *you* learn best. Is it with someone insisting that you have
to know it, or is it when you decide it's something you want to know
more about? Consequences for actions happen naturally. No one has to
force unnatural consequences on a child. For instance, if Laurie
ripped one of her books to shreds (as she did a few times as a child)
she learned quickly that the book could no longer be read. No one
said, "Now Laurie, look what you did to your book. Now you can't read
it." It was obvious what she had done. The same when she disassembled
a favorite toy and lost some of the parts.
> Is there a point where one can be so worried about not "schooling"that they forget that being taught can also be a pleasurable or
important thing and that teachers and being taught are not the
nemesis of home learners?
**** Worry was not a part of our unschooling. We just let go of power
trips and joined life. Being taught is a pleasurable experience IF
it's your choice to be taught. We're all teachers to some extent, but
if we're wise, we only teach what someone asks us to teach. Then we
know the person honestly wants to hear what we have to say. We also
have no fear of asking others to teach what they know. Hence, the
message boards. :-)
Just pondering here as I try to pick up on the subtle and not so
subtle differences of the "homeschooling" lifestyle.
> Karmen M.love, Valerie
MO Milligans
At 01:19 AM 9/25/02 -0400, you wrote:
Nope. We take great interest in *everything* our kids do. We also believe
that if they're not hurting anyone else, then they should be able to be
FREE to do as they please. "Education" takes care of itself, that's all.
Todd
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free Will" -Rush (& Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>but is unschooling completely taking a passive approach to everything your==
>child
>does? Is there no decorum or discipline?
Nope. We take great interest in *everything* our kids do. We also believe
that if they're not hurting anyone else, then they should be able to be
FREE to do as they please. "Education" takes care of itself, that's all.
Todd
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free Will" -Rush (& Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/24/02 10:59:56 PM, stephanie.elms@...
writes:
<< I still have these nagging thoughts in my head however...things like kids
need (and want)
parents to set the limits...that "good" parents are supposed to control tv
viewing
and junk food etc etc etc. Still working on it though. >>
Maybe you could ask your father-in-law to talk to your husband about relaxing.
My kids have limits, they're just different kinds of limits. Last night from
the next room I heard Marty say FOUR TIMES in about two minutes, "Kirby, it's
not your turn," "It's still my turn." Kirby, my turn's not over" and I
yelled for Kirby. He came to the door and I said "I'm tired of hearing Marty
say it's not your turn, do something about that!" and they both laughed and I
laughed and he played more carefully.
I had asked Kirby to clean his room ('make a path' is actually what I said,
so he cleaned out the floor). And in that expanse of flat space, his friend
Chris and he set out all Chris's boxes of CCG cards and sorted them, and now
the floor has 6 square feet or so of boxes of cards. Kirby said voluntarily
"Sorry Chris's cards are here. We're going to get them out of here and back
to his house in a few days."
Holly went to ride bikes and wasn't back at twilight. I was worried. She
came in the house saying "Sorry I'm late!" and explaining the adventures
which caused it.
With them that willing to amend little things out of consideration for
others, I can't worry about whether they're gong to grow up to be good
adults. They are!
Maybe that's our main limiting factor: Be considerate.
When kids have a ton of specific rules, if they've followed 40 rules, they're
going to feel they've earned the right to kick back and be selfish,
sometimes. If there weren't a bunch of rules, but a few principles, they can
calmly live within those principles.
Our house isn't neat and clean, but we can clean up for a party when we need
to, and we can usually find something (one CD portable CD player is missing,
and an unrelated CD...).
Sandra
----------------------------------------------------------
writes:
<< I still have these nagging thoughts in my head however...things like kids
need (and want)
parents to set the limits...that "good" parents are supposed to control tv
viewing
and junk food etc etc etc. Still working on it though. >>
Maybe you could ask your father-in-law to talk to your husband about relaxing.
My kids have limits, they're just different kinds of limits. Last night from
the next room I heard Marty say FOUR TIMES in about two minutes, "Kirby, it's
not your turn," "It's still my turn." Kirby, my turn's not over" and I
yelled for Kirby. He came to the door and I said "I'm tired of hearing Marty
say it's not your turn, do something about that!" and they both laughed and I
laughed and he played more carefully.
I had asked Kirby to clean his room ('make a path' is actually what I said,
so he cleaned out the floor). And in that expanse of flat space, his friend
Chris and he set out all Chris's boxes of CCG cards and sorted them, and now
the floor has 6 square feet or so of boxes of cards. Kirby said voluntarily
"Sorry Chris's cards are here. We're going to get them out of here and back
to his house in a few days."
Holly went to ride bikes and wasn't back at twilight. I was worried. She
came in the house saying "Sorry I'm late!" and explaining the adventures
which caused it.
With them that willing to amend little things out of consideration for
others, I can't worry about whether they're gong to grow up to be good
adults. They are!
Maybe that's our main limiting factor: Be considerate.
When kids have a ton of specific rules, if they've followed 40 rules, they're
going to feel they've earned the right to kick back and be selfish,
sometimes. If there weren't a bunch of rules, but a few principles, they can
calmly live within those principles.
Our house isn't neat and clean, but we can clean up for a party when we need
to, and we can usually find something (one CD portable CD player is missing,
and an unrelated CD...).
Sandra
----------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/24/02 11:21:09 PM, freddy044@... writes:
<< is unschooling completely taking a passive approach to everything your
child
does? >>
No. It's more like taking an ACTIVE approach to everything your child does.
To live WITH him rather than in opposition to him.
<<Is there a point where one
can be so worried about not "schooling" that they forget that being taught
can also be a pleasurable or important thing and that teachers and being
taught are not the nemesis of home learners? >>
Unschooling isn't about teaching and teachers. Some of HOMEschooling is, but
the subset of homeschooling which is unschooling is about natural learning,
and learning together, and learning for fun, and the inevitable learning
which happens constantly if teaching doesn't mess things up.
<<I also believe that in life there are rights and wrongs and consequences
for our
actions. It is all part of being in a society. >>
My kids are in a society. They're not outside of the society in an artifical
kid-environment, but in the real world with people of all ages. They do very
well!
<<Just pondering here as I try to pick up on the subtle and not so subtle
differences of the "homeschooling" lifestyle.>>
As you read about different kinds of homeschooling you'll understand better.
If you started cold in unschooling and you believe in lots of teaching and
discipline, you might be happier reading about structured homeschooling.
Sandra
<< is unschooling completely taking a passive approach to everything your
child
does? >>
No. It's more like taking an ACTIVE approach to everything your child does.
To live WITH him rather than in opposition to him.
<<Is there a point where one
can be so worried about not "schooling" that they forget that being taught
can also be a pleasurable or important thing and that teachers and being
taught are not the nemesis of home learners? >>
Unschooling isn't about teaching and teachers. Some of HOMEschooling is, but
the subset of homeschooling which is unschooling is about natural learning,
and learning together, and learning for fun, and the inevitable learning
which happens constantly if teaching doesn't mess things up.
<<I also believe that in life there are rights and wrongs and consequences
for our
actions. It is all part of being in a society. >>
My kids are in a society. They're not outside of the society in an artifical
kid-environment, but in the real world with people of all ages. They do very
well!
<<Just pondering here as I try to pick up on the subtle and not so subtle
differences of the "homeschooling" lifestyle.>>
As you read about different kinds of homeschooling you'll understand better.
If you started cold in unschooling and you believe in lots of teaching and
discipline, you might be happier reading about structured homeschooling.
Sandra
Kelli Traaseth
I also am trying to unlimit myself in regards to my children and eating and TV. And have a good story.
Yesterday my son 9, asked to have some chocolate milk and I said sure, you can have that any time you want. And he stops and looks at me and then stops and says, oh, I guess I don't want any I think I already had enough sugar today, And walks away. Wow.
Then we were talking about soda(pop), he loves Mountain Dew, and I was tellling him that I really just want him to be able to make good choices with regards to his eating and drinking because I want him to stay healthy and feeling good. And he said that's why I've limited myself to one caffeine pop a week and one noncaffeine pop a week. I'm like, isn't that what I wanted a few months ago? But here he had decided that was what he wanted.
So there ya go, they do self regulate, yeah Sandra you were right.
I also want to tell Sandra that I was really blown away by some of the web sites that I found through your web site, I really enjoyed spinning globe and Mary's web site, can't remember her last name, but her memoirs were so interesting! I was blown away when I found out she was 82, what a great lady, I wish my children had someone in their life like that!
Thanks for all your insightful comments!
Take Care
Kelli
Stephanie Elms wrote:> ==
I actually have started to feel sorry for the poor guy lately! I think that
sometimes he wishes that he married a more normal (mainstream) person. His dad
was navy and ran a very tight ship. They did not talk back to him or they would
get spanked. (The funny thing is that his dad is now the sweetest teddy bear of
a grandfather. My MIL has mentioned a few times that it is a shame that he could
not have relaxed and enjoyed his own boys as much as he enjoys his grandsons.) SO
Jeff really has a farther way to come to get to where I am. I know that there are
times when he does not feel like he has to explain himself and that Jason should
just do what he said because he said it. I am working on getting him to not take
Jason's actions so personally...they are not acts of defiance against him, but
rather very normal reactions from a little boy who is still learning. That
punishments are not the only way to teach him (and that in reality they do not
really do much to teach him at all).
In fact, I was talking with a friend of mine today about unschooling/un-tving/un-junk
fooding etc and it hit me that if kids learn better by observing and being in life,
then why can't this apply to learning right from wrong and other life lessons? I
think that I had been unconsciously viewing parenting as teaching them lessons
(about what to eat, how much tv to watch, how many toys to buy, how much money
to spend) and if I did not teach them, they would not learn. But I can see that
is not true. The past couple of days I have been trying to just enjoy them. To not
worry about whether they are watching too much tv or if Jason has been playing his
bionicle game on the computer for too long. And things seem to be going smoother.
I still have these nagging thoughts in my head however...things like kids need (and want)
parents to set the limits...that "good" parents are supposed to control tv viewing
and junk food etc etc etc. Still working on it though.
Thanks for listening...not sure if everything I wrote here makes sense or not!
Stephanie
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Yesterday my son 9, asked to have some chocolate milk and I said sure, you can have that any time you want. And he stops and looks at me and then stops and says, oh, I guess I don't want any I think I already had enough sugar today, And walks away. Wow.
Then we were talking about soda(pop), he loves Mountain Dew, and I was tellling him that I really just want him to be able to make good choices with regards to his eating and drinking because I want him to stay healthy and feeling good. And he said that's why I've limited myself to one caffeine pop a week and one noncaffeine pop a week. I'm like, isn't that what I wanted a few months ago? But here he had decided that was what he wanted.
So there ya go, they do self regulate, yeah Sandra you were right.
I also want to tell Sandra that I was really blown away by some of the web sites that I found through your web site, I really enjoyed spinning globe and Mary's web site, can't remember her last name, but her memoirs were so interesting! I was blown away when I found out she was 82, what a great lady, I wish my children had someone in their life like that!
Thanks for all your insightful comments!
Take Care
Kelli
Stephanie Elms wrote:> ==
> Have you considered printing some of the better posts, and then justYeah. I have printed off some posts and usually leave them in the bathroom. ;o)
> leaving them lying around? :)
>
I actually have started to feel sorry for the poor guy lately! I think that
sometimes he wishes that he married a more normal (mainstream) person. His dad
was navy and ran a very tight ship. They did not talk back to him or they would
get spanked. (The funny thing is that his dad is now the sweetest teddy bear of
a grandfather. My MIL has mentioned a few times that it is a shame that he could
not have relaxed and enjoyed his own boys as much as he enjoys his grandsons.) SO
Jeff really has a farther way to come to get to where I am. I know that there are
times when he does not feel like he has to explain himself and that Jason should
just do what he said because he said it. I am working on getting him to not take
Jason's actions so personally...they are not acts of defiance against him, but
rather very normal reactions from a little boy who is still learning. That
punishments are not the only way to teach him (and that in reality they do not
really do much to teach him at all).
In fact, I was talking with a friend of mine today about unschooling/un-tving/un-junk
fooding etc and it hit me that if kids learn better by observing and being in life,
then why can't this apply to learning right from wrong and other life lessons? I
think that I had been unconsciously viewing parenting as teaching them lessons
(about what to eat, how much tv to watch, how many toys to buy, how much money
to spend) and if I did not teach them, they would not learn. But I can see that
is not true. The past couple of days I have been trying to just enjoy them. To not
worry about whether they are watching too much tv or if Jason has been playing his
bionicle game on the computer for too long. And things seem to be going smoother.
I still have these nagging thoughts in my head however...things like kids need (and want)
parents to set the limits...that "good" parents are supposed to control tv viewing
and junk food etc etc etc. Still working on it though.
Thanks for listening...not sure if everything I wrote here makes sense or not!
Stephanie
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/25/02 1:56:21 PM, kellitraas@... writes:
<< So there ya go, they do self regulate, yeah Sandra you were right.
I also want to tell Sandra that I was really blown away by some of the web
sites that I found through your web site, >>
Thanks.
I'm enjoying keeping that site up. I haven't followed all the links from all
the links myself, but there are some very cool homeschooling links out there!
Sandra
<< So there ya go, they do self regulate, yeah Sandra you were right.
I also want to tell Sandra that I was really blown away by some of the web
sites that I found through your web site, >>
Thanks.
I'm enjoying keeping that site up. I haven't followed all the links from all
the links myself, but there are some very cool homeschooling links out there!
Sandra
Stephanie Elms
OK. This is a couple of days old, but I haven't had as much time on the
computer lately. Hope no one minds...it helps to try to write some of this
down to get it straight in my head....
let them run around wreaking havoc! LOL! What I have been grappling with though
is that there are times where I feel that I make a decision solely because I have to
teach them a lesson. For example, I don't usually buy them candy or small items
when we go shopping. Why? Because they have to learn (i.e., I have to teach them)
that they can not have everything they want. What I have been thinking lately is
that I need to really look at this...do I *really* think that they will not learn
that they can not have everything they want unless I purposefully deprive them?
There will be plenty of times in the course of their lives where they will learn
that. So what I have started doing is looking at it on a case by case basis. If
there is a real reason why I don't want to get something (don't have enough
money on me or something like that) then we won't get it. But what am I afraid will
really happen if I buy them a .50 candy bar?
I kind of feel like there are all these things that I *should* do as a parent. I have
overcome many of them, but now I kind of feel like I am going to another level. When
Jason was 9 months old, I remember my mom telling me that I needed to teach him how
to play by himself (by doing the dishes even if he was sitting on the floor crying) or
he would always need me to entertain him. Well, I didn't follow her advice and at 5
Jason will play by himself, not as much as other kids, and always in the same room that
I am in. But I have also come to realize that this is just part of who Jason is. It
was not until I had Kyle that I realized that people could actually get household
chores done with little kids around! Of course my mom also worried that Jason would
never learn to wear pjs because I let him sleep in his clothes to avoid getting
dressed issues (yes...we really had this conversation LOL! And I am happy to report
that Jason does sleep in pjs (at least sometimes!)) So you would think that I would
be good at ignoring those "shoulds" by now!
that I have to impose my own punishments? (Just musing to myself here...hoping to
figure out where I am going with this...)
is not about the joy of teaching, but rather the joy of learning. It does not
mean that you ignore your kid, but rather discover with them. I know that is
what I am enjoying the most so far...re-learning lots of things (and having them
make more sense!) and learning even more.
Stephanie
computer lately. Hope no one minds...it helps to try to write some of this
down to get it straight in my head....
> Maybe I have the wrong take on all of this, it is somewhatHmmm. Maybe I did not explain myself very well. I didn't mean that I would
> new to me, but is
> unschooling completely taking a passive approach to
> everything your child
> does? Is there no decorum or discipline? Cuz if that is the
let them run around wreaking havoc! LOL! What I have been grappling with though
is that there are times where I feel that I make a decision solely because I have to
teach them a lesson. For example, I don't usually buy them candy or small items
when we go shopping. Why? Because they have to learn (i.e., I have to teach them)
that they can not have everything they want. What I have been thinking lately is
that I need to really look at this...do I *really* think that they will not learn
that they can not have everything they want unless I purposefully deprive them?
There will be plenty of times in the course of their lives where they will learn
that. So what I have started doing is looking at it on a case by case basis. If
there is a real reason why I don't want to get something (don't have enough
money on me or something like that) then we won't get it. But what am I afraid will
really happen if I buy them a .50 candy bar?
I kind of feel like there are all these things that I *should* do as a parent. I have
overcome many of them, but now I kind of feel like I am going to another level. When
Jason was 9 months old, I remember my mom telling me that I needed to teach him how
to play by himself (by doing the dishes even if he was sitting on the floor crying) or
he would always need me to entertain him. Well, I didn't follow her advice and at 5
Jason will play by himself, not as much as other kids, and always in the same room that
I am in. But I have also come to realize that this is just part of who Jason is. It
was not until I had Kyle that I realized that people could actually get household
chores done with little kids around! Of course my mom also worried that Jason would
never learn to wear pjs because I let him sleep in his clothes to avoid getting
dressed issues (yes...we really had this conversation LOL! And I am happy to report
that Jason does sleep in pjs (at least sometimes!)) So you would think that I would
be good at ignoring those "shoulds" by now!
> atmosphere, but I alsoYes you are exactly right. There are consequences, so why do I as a parent feel
> believe that in life there are rights and wrongs and
> consequences for our
> actions. It is all part of being in a society.
that I have to impose my own punishments? (Just musing to myself here...hoping to
figure out where I am going with this...)
> point where oneHmmm...as far as I can tell (being relatively new to this) is that unschooling
> can be so worried about not "schooling" that they forget that
> being taught
> can also be a pleasurable or important thing and that
> teachers and being
> taught are not the nemesis of home learners?
is not about the joy of teaching, but rather the joy of learning. It does not
mean that you ignore your kid, but rather discover with them. I know that is
what I am enjoying the most so far...re-learning lots of things (and having them
make more sense!) and learning even more.
Stephanie
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/27/02 9:15:29 PM, stephanie.elms@...
writes:
<< For example, I don't usually buy them candy or small items
when we go shopping. Why? Because they have to learn (i.e., I have to teach
them)
that they can not have everything they want. >>
You don't have to teach them that. <g>
<,So what I have started doing is looking at it on a case by case basis. If
there is a real reason why I don't want to get something (don't have enough
money on me or something like that) then we won't get it. But what am I
afraid will
really happen if I buy them a .50 candy bar? >>
From the time Kirby was a baby I had decided to always say yes if there was
no real reason of safety or law or consideration for others to say no. When
"yes" is the default answer and not "NO!" life is soft and open, not dark and
closed up. How can children grow up sweet and light if they're treated like
criminals?
There are cultural and religious reasons that many children are treated as
criminals. I reject the idea that my children are born in sin or have to
have their wills broken. So yes becomes part of love and caring, and a mean,
thoughtless "NO" is rejected with cutting insults, spankings, and stuff.
Stephanie, your mom sounds like my mother in law, who told me that we have to
frustrate our kids so they'll learn to deal with frustration.
My husband would be a happier man if he hadn't been frustrated by his
self-satisfied mother.
We figured frustration is natural, and they'll get PLENTY without us devising
some fake frustrations.
Sandra
writes:
<< For example, I don't usually buy them candy or small items
when we go shopping. Why? Because they have to learn (i.e., I have to teach
them)
that they can not have everything they want. >>
You don't have to teach them that. <g>
<,So what I have started doing is looking at it on a case by case basis. If
there is a real reason why I don't want to get something (don't have enough
money on me or something like that) then we won't get it. But what am I
afraid will
really happen if I buy them a .50 candy bar? >>
From the time Kirby was a baby I had decided to always say yes if there was
no real reason of safety or law or consideration for others to say no. When
"yes" is the default answer and not "NO!" life is soft and open, not dark and
closed up. How can children grow up sweet and light if they're treated like
criminals?
There are cultural and religious reasons that many children are treated as
criminals. I reject the idea that my children are born in sin or have to
have their wills broken. So yes becomes part of love and caring, and a mean,
thoughtless "NO" is rejected with cutting insults, spankings, and stuff.
Stephanie, your mom sounds like my mother in law, who told me that we have to
frustrate our kids so they'll learn to deal with frustration.
My husband would be a happier man if he hadn't been frustrated by his
self-satisfied mother.
We figured frustration is natural, and they'll get PLENTY without us devising
some fake frustrations.
Sandra
Kelli Traaseth
I hope that noone minds that I am posting AGAIN! You all are probably sick of seeing my name...too bad!
Stephanie, It sounds like you are thinking my thoughts!! It must have been the way alot of us were raised, I know I always felt that saying no was the 'good' parent thing. But now I think it actually creates a very needy child. I think Valerie touched on this, I must read Magical Child, its on one of my little pieces of paper on my computer!
Kelli
Stephanie Elms wrote:OK. This is a couple of days old, but I haven't had as much time on the
computer lately. Hope no one minds...it helps to try to write some of this
down to get it straight in my head....
let them run around wreaking havoc! LOL! What I have been grappling with though
is that there are times where I feel that I make a decision solely because I have to
teach them a lesson. For example, I don't usually buy them candy or small items
when we go shopping. Why? Because they have to learn (i.e., I have to teach them)
that they can not have everything they want. What I have been thinking lately is
that I need to really look at this...do I *really* think that they will not learn
that they can not have everything they want unless I purposefully deprive them?
There will be plenty of times in the course of their lives where they will learn
that. So what I have started doing is looking at it on a case by case basis. If
there is a real reason why I don't want to get something (don't have enough
money on me or something like that) then we won't get it. But what am I afraid will
really happen if I buy them a .50 candy bar?
I kind of feel like there are all these things that I *should* do as a parent. I have
overcome many of them, but now I kind of feel like I am going to another level. When
Jason was 9 months old, I remember my mom telling me that I needed to teach him how
to play by himself (by doing the dishes even if he was sitting on the floor crying) or
he would always need me to entertain him. Well, I didn't follow her advice and at 5
Jason will play by himself, not as much as other kids, and always in the same room that
I am in. But I have also come to realize that this is just part of who Jason is. It
was not until I had Kyle that I realized that people could actually get household
chores done with little kids around! Of course my mom also worried that Jason would
never learn to wear pjs because I let him sleep in his clothes to avoid getting
dressed issues (yes...we really had this conversation LOL! And I am happy to report
that Jason does sleep in pjs (at least sometimes!)) So you would think that I would
be good at ignoring those "shoulds" by now!
that I have to impose my own punishments? (Just musing to myself here...hoping to
figure out where I am going with this...)
is not about the joy of teaching, but rather the joy of learning. It does not
mean that you ignore your kid, but rather discover with them. I know that is
what I am enjoying the most so far...re-learning lots of things (and having them
make more sense!) and learning even more.
Stephanie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie, It sounds like you are thinking my thoughts!! It must have been the way alot of us were raised, I know I always felt that saying no was the 'good' parent thing. But now I think it actually creates a very needy child. I think Valerie touched on this, I must read Magical Child, its on one of my little pieces of paper on my computer!
Kelli
Stephanie Elms wrote:OK. This is a couple of days old, but I haven't had as much time on the
computer lately. Hope no one minds...it helps to try to write some of this
down to get it straight in my head....
> Maybe I have the wrong take on all of this, it is somewhatHmmm. Maybe I did not explain myself very well. I didn't mean that I would
> new to me, but is
> unschooling completely taking a passive approach to
> everything your child
> does? Is there no decorum or discipline? Cuz if that is the
let them run around wreaking havoc! LOL! What I have been grappling with though
is that there are times where I feel that I make a decision solely because I have to
teach them a lesson. For example, I don't usually buy them candy or small items
when we go shopping. Why? Because they have to learn (i.e., I have to teach them)
that they can not have everything they want. What I have been thinking lately is
that I need to really look at this...do I *really* think that they will not learn
that they can not have everything they want unless I purposefully deprive them?
There will be plenty of times in the course of their lives where they will learn
that. So what I have started doing is looking at it on a case by case basis. If
there is a real reason why I don't want to get something (don't have enough
money on me or something like that) then we won't get it. But what am I afraid will
really happen if I buy them a .50 candy bar?
I kind of feel like there are all these things that I *should* do as a parent. I have
overcome many of them, but now I kind of feel like I am going to another level. When
Jason was 9 months old, I remember my mom telling me that I needed to teach him how
to play by himself (by doing the dishes even if he was sitting on the floor crying) or
he would always need me to entertain him. Well, I didn't follow her advice and at 5
Jason will play by himself, not as much as other kids, and always in the same room that
I am in. But I have also come to realize that this is just part of who Jason is. It
was not until I had Kyle that I realized that people could actually get household
chores done with little kids around! Of course my mom also worried that Jason would
never learn to wear pjs because I let him sleep in his clothes to avoid getting
dressed issues (yes...we really had this conversation LOL! And I am happy to report
that Jason does sleep in pjs (at least sometimes!)) So you would think that I would
be good at ignoring those "shoulds" by now!
> atmosphere, but I alsoYes you are exactly right. There are consequences, so why do I as a parent feel
> believe that in life there are rights and wrongs and
> consequences for our
> actions. It is all part of being in a society.
that I have to impose my own punishments? (Just musing to myself here...hoping to
figure out where I am going with this...)
> point where oneHmmm...as far as I can tell (being relatively new to this) is that unschooling
> can be so worried about not "schooling" that they forget that
> being taught
> can also be a pleasurable or important thing and that
> teachers and being
> taught are not the nemesis of home learners?
is not about the joy of teaching, but rather the joy of learning. It does not
mean that you ignore your kid, but rather discover with them. I know that is
what I am enjoying the most so far...re-learning lots of things (and having them
make more sense!) and learning even more.
Stephanie
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
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Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MO Milligans
At 04:24 AM 9/28/02 -0700, you wrote:
LOL. Good attitude. <g>
Todd
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free Will" -Rush (& Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>I hope that noone minds that I am posting AGAIN! You all are probably sick==
>of seeing my name...too bad!
LOL. Good attitude. <g>
Todd
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
I will choose Free Will" -Rush (& Todd)
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
Dalene and Andy
Hey Stephanie
I enjoyed your post. I think we might have a lot in common. For one thing it is good to hear there is another five year old out there somewhere in the world that does not enjoy separating. I honestly thought mine must be totally unique.
that they can not have everything they want unless I purposefully deprive them?
I'm constantly pondering similar thoughts and usually the moment I feel satisfied with my answer, something changes to shift my perspective and I have to ponder it all over.
Right now this very minute I have clarified it with myself that there are certain values that I would like to see my children adopt. One of which is not to spend money wasteful and extravagantly, and I think the best way to instill any kind of value system is through modelling. Through not buying little bits every day, I'm not trying to punish them, I'm simply not buying what they don't need. But then is that against the unschooling philosophy?? I don't know??
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I enjoyed your post. I think we might have a lot in common. For one thing it is good to hear there is another five year old out there somewhere in the world that does not enjoy separating. I honestly thought mine must be totally unique.
>>What I have been thinking lately isthat I need to really look at this...do I *really* think that they will not learn
that they can not have everything they want unless I purposefully deprive them?
I'm constantly pondering similar thoughts and usually the moment I feel satisfied with my answer, something changes to shift my perspective and I have to ponder it all over.
Right now this very minute I have clarified it with myself that there are certain values that I would like to see my children adopt. One of which is not to spend money wasteful and extravagantly, and I think the best way to instill any kind of value system is through modelling. Through not buying little bits every day, I'm not trying to punish them, I'm simply not buying what they don't need. But then is that against the unschooling philosophy?? I don't know??
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms
> I'm constantly pondering similar thoughts and usually theHi Dalene! Nice to know that someone else is trying to figure this all out too. :o)
> moment I feel satisfied with my answer, something changes to
> shift my perspective and I have to ponder it all over.
> Right now this very minute I have clarified it with myselfThis is one of the concepts I have been wrestling with too. I think where
> that there are certain values that I would like to see my
> children adopt. One of which is not to spend money wasteful
> and extravagantly, and I think the best way to instill any
> kind of value system is through modeling. Through not buying
> little bits every day, I'm not trying to punish them, I'm
> simply not buying what they don't need. But then is that
> against the unschooling philosophy?? I don't know??
I am now, though is realizing that I really can not instill (teach) my
value system. All I can do is model and explain why I make the choices
that I make. I can not *make* my kids choose the same way that I do (and
in trying to force them to, will make it more likely that they will not).
By not buying my kids something that they want I am not modeling, but rather
am forcing them to live by my value system. Modeling would be to see
something that *I* want and choose to put it back and not
buy it. Interestingly, I had a conversation with my 5 yo at little while ago,
where I mentioned how I wanted a new sofa, but have not gotten one because we have
decided to get other things so far. This seems to have had more impact on him
(he asks me about it periodically) then any of our other conversations about
priorities (usually when I would not buy *him* something).
The other piece of this that I am wrestling with is about deciding what my kids need.
Is it really my place to decide what they really need? Can I really determine what
value they will get out of something? When I was in elementary school, my brother
and I want to the store with my dad to pick up a last minute something. He (after
some whining) bought me a *very* cheap plastic angel ornament and my brother a snowman.
We played with these ornaments extensively...making up scenes, carrying them around.
It for some reason became one of my favorite ornaments and I *still* have it and
put it on my tree every year. It brings back wonderful memories. If my kids wanted
something like this ornament, I most likely would have said no (extremely cheaply made
and plastic).
So where do I draw the line and how do I make these decisions...I really am trying to
look at it from the boys perspective and not make arbitrary (in their eyes) decisions.
For example...I hate to pay vending machine prices (especially $1 for a coke!). So
if we were leaving somewhere for home, I would tell the boys no (and why) and that
we could have a coke when we got home (or at least now I would since I am trying to
ease up on the food restrictions LOL!). But if we were out and not going home, I
would be more likely to go ahead and buy it (if I had the money on me).
I am hoping that once the boys see that I *am* willing to get them things, they will
be more open to hearing about why I make the choices for myself that I do. And that
they will start thinking more about the choices that they make. Funny thing happened
in the grocery store a couple of days ago...we were going down the cereal aisle when
Jason saw a Capt Crunch box advertising Bionicle cards with purchase. He of course wanted it
(he LOVES bionicles!). Instead of just immediately saying, no, it is junk cereal, I
went over and looked at the box (I decided that if he really wanted it I would say yes).
He looked at all the boxes and I read them and we realized that you only got the one
card that was taped to the front. When he realized that, *he* decided that it was not
worth buying the box of cereal to get one card! Could have blown me away....
Have you read Sandra's article on spoiling? It was a real eye opener...told me things that
I already knew, but had a hard time believe as everyone has been telling me the exact
opposite....
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled.html
Stephanie
Stephanie Elms
> Stephanie, It sounds like you are thinking my thoughts!! ItYeah...reading these posts the past couple of months has almost been
> must have been the way a lot of us were raised, I know I
> always felt that saying no was the 'good' parent thing. But
> now I think it actually creates a very needy child. I think
> Valerie touched on this, I must read Magical Child, its on
> one of my little pieces of paper on my computer!
> Kelli
too good to be true. I have always felt uneasy making decisions for my
kids. One of the reasons that I have always taken a relaxed approach
to parenting (although now that I have really been examining things I
realize that I control in some ways that I did not even realize).
The funny thing is that Jason has never really done well with being
controlled...I always attributed it to the fact that he could sense
my uncomfortableness (is that a word??) The more freedom I let him have,
the better things go. But then people (including my dh) tell me that I
am letting him off too easy. And give me dire warnings. And then it gets
to me and I start cracking down and getting exasperated. I actually
sometimes envied some of my friends for whom parenting is black and white.
Kids do as they are told, they are the parents after all. Not that I wanted
to be like them, but rather have the certainty that they had. My heart was
telling me that there was a better way, but everyone said that I was nuts.
It is so nice to find people that say that I am not nuts! Now just to convince
dh....why is it that people think that if you let kids have control over their
lives they will screw it up? I am almost afraid to talk with friends about some
of these things...they look at me like I have horns on my head or like
I am seriously deluding myself.
Stephanie E.
Mica
I'm glad Stephanie mentioned these experiences - the warnings, her
exasperation, envy of parents who have certainty, almost fear of talking
to friends about the non-controlling philosophy.
I have been going through a lot of that lately. My marriage is in
turmoil - in addition to many other issues that we haven't got around to
discussing my dh will not discuss (or read about) unschooling and
resents both that I have chosen to support the children without
schooling and that I wish to be a non-coercive parent. In our
counselling the counsellor asked what I feared if I would "compromise"
with my dh in the homeschooling. When I couldn't answer the question
because of the ambiguities - particularly her desire to "leave the
children out of the issue" and I became annoyed with her insistence she
ends up telling me that it sounds to her that I have made the
homeschooling choice because of my own experiences and that I am afraid
to compromise with my dh because of a control issue relating to the way
my father was! At the end of that session she intended to "consult"
with her colleagues and now I'm wondering what all she wants to consult
on, and I hate the paranoia of wondering if she is checking out whether
and how to interfere with our (boys & I) educational choice!
I'm feeling vulnerable and uncertain. I've checked with the oldest - he
doesn't want to go to school still. The youngest is nearly 5 enjoys
kindergarten and is aware that all the other kids will be going to
school next year. Last year he was happy with doing "little homeschool"
but with the tension surrounding the issue of homeschooling in the
family I'm not sure if he might ask to go to school just because that is
what his dad wants him to do. I've tried structuring activities - it
just doesn't work with these independent boys - they like to choose
their own activities, which unfortunately don't appear educational to my
dh (tv, computer, playing outside, computer, tv, reading only Asterix
books).
Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here
who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.
Mica
ghal9720@...
Stawell, Victoria, Australia
exasperation, envy of parents who have certainty, almost fear of talking
to friends about the non-controlling philosophy.
I have been going through a lot of that lately. My marriage is in
turmoil - in addition to many other issues that we haven't got around to
discussing my dh will not discuss (or read about) unschooling and
resents both that I have chosen to support the children without
schooling and that I wish to be a non-coercive parent. In our
counselling the counsellor asked what I feared if I would "compromise"
with my dh in the homeschooling. When I couldn't answer the question
because of the ambiguities - particularly her desire to "leave the
children out of the issue" and I became annoyed with her insistence she
ends up telling me that it sounds to her that I have made the
homeschooling choice because of my own experiences and that I am afraid
to compromise with my dh because of a control issue relating to the way
my father was! At the end of that session she intended to "consult"
with her colleagues and now I'm wondering what all she wants to consult
on, and I hate the paranoia of wondering if she is checking out whether
and how to interfere with our (boys & I) educational choice!
I'm feeling vulnerable and uncertain. I've checked with the oldest - he
doesn't want to go to school still. The youngest is nearly 5 enjoys
kindergarten and is aware that all the other kids will be going to
school next year. Last year he was happy with doing "little homeschool"
but with the tension surrounding the issue of homeschooling in the
family I'm not sure if he might ask to go to school just because that is
what his dad wants him to do. I've tried structuring activities - it
just doesn't work with these independent boys - they like to choose
their own activities, which unfortunately don't appear educational to my
dh (tv, computer, playing outside, computer, tv, reading only Asterix
books).
Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here
who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.
Mica
ghal9720@...
Stawell, Victoria, Australia
> snipped<have,
>
> The funny thing is that Jason has never really done well with being
> controlled...I always attributed it to the fact that he could sense
> my uncomfortableness (is that a word??) The more freedom I let him
> the better things go. But then people (including my dh) tell me that Igets
> am letting him off too easy. And give me dire warnings. And then it
> to me and I start cracking down and getting exasperated. I actuallywhite.
> sometimes envied some of my friends for whom parenting is black and
> Kids do as they are told, they are the parents after all. Not that Iwas
> wanted
> to be like them, but rather have the certainty that they had. My heart
> telling me that there was a better way, but everyone said that I wasnuts.
> It is so nice to find people that say that I am not nuts! Now just toover
> convince
> dh....why is it that people think that if you let kids have control
> theirabout
> lives they will screw it up? I am almost afraid to talk with friends
> some
> of these things...they look at me like I have horns on my head or like
> I am seriously deluding myself.
>
> Stephanie E.
>
>
marji
Hi, Mica.
You'll probably get a lot of wonderful answers to these questions, but the
one thing that strikes me is that your husband and counselor seem to be
putting you on the defensive without being well enough informed about the
issue. Sandra Dodd has pointed this out before (much more eloquently than
I am), and I have always been very impressed with this argument. Until
your husband (especially) and counselor read up and inform themselves about
the validity of your educated and informed choices, they have no business
challenging you on them because they have no idea where you are coming
from! You have taken the time to read up on exactly why unschooling is a
good choice for you and your kids; they have not. Until they have boned up
on exactly what unschooling and non-coercive parenting are, how can they
intelligently discuss these, or their alternatives, with you?
How would it feel for you to give both of them a list of recommended
reading materials and then tell them that after they have read some of the
list you would be more willing to entertain their concerns?
Best wishes,
Marji
At 16:18 10/1/02 +1000, Mica wrote:
You'll probably get a lot of wonderful answers to these questions, but the
one thing that strikes me is that your husband and counselor seem to be
putting you on the defensive without being well enough informed about the
issue. Sandra Dodd has pointed this out before (much more eloquently than
I am), and I have always been very impressed with this argument. Until
your husband (especially) and counselor read up and inform themselves about
the validity of your educated and informed choices, they have no business
challenging you on them because they have no idea where you are coming
from! You have taken the time to read up on exactly why unschooling is a
good choice for you and your kids; they have not. Until they have boned up
on exactly what unschooling and non-coercive parenting are, how can they
intelligently discuss these, or their alternatives, with you?
How would it feel for you to give both of them a list of recommended
reading materials and then tell them that after they have read some of the
list you would be more willing to entertain their concerns?
Best wishes,
Marji
At 16:18 10/1/02 +1000, Mica wrote:
>[snip] I have been going through a lot of that lately. My marriage is in[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>turmoil - in addition to many other issues that we haven't got around to
>discussing my dh will not discuss (or read about) unschooling and
>resents both that I have chosen to support the children without
>schooling and that I wish to be a non-coercive parent. In our
>counselling the counsellor asked what I feared if I would "compromise"
>with my dh in the homeschooling. When I couldn't answer the question
>because of the ambiguities - particularly her desire to "leave the
>children out of the issue" and I became annoyed with her insistence she
>ends up telling me that it sounds to her that I have made the
>homeschooling choice because of my own experiences and that I am afraid
>to compromise with my dh because of a control issue relating to the way
>my father was! At the end of that session she intended to "consult"
>with her colleagues and now I'm wondering what all she wants to consult
>on, and I hate the paranoia of wondering if she is checking out whether
>and how to interfere with our (boys & I) educational choice!
>
>I'm feeling vulnerable and uncertain... [snip]
Rachel Ann
Well, of course if the counselor will not allow the children to enter into the discussion of why you want to unschool it will sound controlling. It is kind of like asking someone why you want to breastfeed your baby, but don't mention the child. If the child isn't in there that leaves you or the world at large. I'm bfing my baby to save the worlds soybeans for the starving I guess could pass muster, but it sounds silly.
She put you in a no-win situation. There was no possible way for you to answer the question without it becoming about you.
I would call her on it the next time you see her. Your reasons for unschooling are sound: this is the best way for your children to learn. End of sentence. The proof isn't in showing that they are at grade level, it is showing that they readily and rapidly, and hungrily, every day, seek out and learn new things.
hope things work out. I really don't like how this counselor operates...
be well,
Rachel Ann
I have been going through a lot of that lately. My marriage is in
turmoil - in addition to many other issues that we haven't got around to
discussing my dh will not discuss (or read about) unschooling and
resents both that I have chosen to support the children without
schooling and that I wish to be a non-coercive parent. In our
counselling the counsellor asked what I feared if I would "compromise"
with my dh in the homeschooling. When I couldn't answer the question
because of the ambiguities - particularly her desire to "leave the
children out of the issue" and I became annoyed with her insistence she
ends up telling me that it sounds to her that I have made the
homeschooling choice because of my own experiences and that I am afraid
to compromise with my dh because of a control issue relating to the way
my father was! At the end of that session she intended to "consult"
with her colleagues and now I'm wondering what all she wants to consult
on, and I hate the paranoia of wondering if she is checking out whether
and how to interfere with our (boys & I) educational choice!
I'm feeling vulnerable and uncertain. I've checked with the oldest - he
doesn't want to go to school still. The youngest is nearly 5 enjoys
kindergarten and is aware that all the other kids will be going to
school next year. Last year he was happy with doing "little homeschool"
but with the tension surrounding the issue of homeschooling in the
family I'm not sure if he might ask to go to school just because that is
what his dad wants him to do. I've tried structuring activities - it
just doesn't work with these independent boys - they like to choose
their own activities, which unfortunately don't appear educational to my
dh (tv, computer, playing outside, computer, tv, reading only Asterix
books).
Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here
who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.
Mica
ghal9720@...
Stawell, Victoria, Australia
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She put you in a no-win situation. There was no possible way for you to answer the question without it becoming about you.
I would call her on it the next time you see her. Your reasons for unschooling are sound: this is the best way for your children to learn. End of sentence. The proof isn't in showing that they are at grade level, it is showing that they readily and rapidly, and hungrily, every day, seek out and learn new things.
hope things work out. I really don't like how this counselor operates...
be well,
Rachel Ann
I have been going through a lot of that lately. My marriage is in
turmoil - in addition to many other issues that we haven't got around to
discussing my dh will not discuss (or read about) unschooling and
resents both that I have chosen to support the children without
schooling and that I wish to be a non-coercive parent. In our
counselling the counsellor asked what I feared if I would "compromise"
with my dh in the homeschooling. When I couldn't answer the question
because of the ambiguities - particularly her desire to "leave the
children out of the issue" and I became annoyed with her insistence she
ends up telling me that it sounds to her that I have made the
homeschooling choice because of my own experiences and that I am afraid
to compromise with my dh because of a control issue relating to the way
my father was! At the end of that session she intended to "consult"
with her colleagues and now I'm wondering what all she wants to consult
on, and I hate the paranoia of wondering if she is checking out whether
and how to interfere with our (boys & I) educational choice!
I'm feeling vulnerable and uncertain. I've checked with the oldest - he
doesn't want to go to school still. The youngest is nearly 5 enjoys
kindergarten and is aware that all the other kids will be going to
school next year. Last year he was happy with doing "little homeschool"
but with the tension surrounding the issue of homeschooling in the
family I'm not sure if he might ask to go to school just because that is
what his dad wants him to do. I've tried structuring activities - it
just doesn't work with these independent boys - they like to choose
their own activities, which unfortunately don't appear educational to my
dh (tv, computer, playing outside, computer, tv, reading only Asterix
books).
Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here
who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.
Mica
ghal9720@...
Stawell, Victoria, Australia
> snipped<have,
>
> The funny thing is that Jason has never really done well with being
> controlled...I always attributed it to the fact that he could sense
> my uncomfortableness (is that a word??) The more freedom I let him
> the better things go. But then people (including my dh) tell me that Igets
> am letting him off too easy. And give me dire warnings. And then it
> to me and I start cracking down and getting exasperated. I actuallywhite.
> sometimes envied some of my friends for whom parenting is black and
> Kids do as they are told, they are the parents after all. Not that Iwas
> wanted
> to be like them, but rather have the certainty that they had. My heart
> telling me that there was a better way, but everyone said that I wasnuts.
> It is so nice to find people that say that I am not nuts! Now just toover
> convince
> dh....why is it that people think that if you let kids have control
> theirabout
> lives they will screw it up? I am almost afraid to talk with friends
> someYahoo! Groups Sponsor
> of these things...they look at me like I have horns on my head or like
> I am seriously deluding myself.
>
> Stephanie E.
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
Hi Mica! Feel free to e-mail me if you ever want to chat! I also have no support from family for the way I'm choosing to raise my children, instead I get alot of criticism. My marriage is also on the rocks and I'm just trying to figure out a way, at this point, to be able to keep doing what I'm doing with the kids.
Myranda
I'm glad Stephanie mentioned these experiences - the warnings, her
exasperation, envy of parents who have certainty, almost fear of talking
to friends about the non-controlling philosophy.
I have been going through a lot of that lately. My marriage is in
turmoil - in addition to many other issues that we haven't got around to
discussing my dh will not discuss (or read about) unschooling and
resents both that I have chosen to support the children without
schooling and that I wish to be a non-coercive parent. In our
counselling the counsellor asked what I feared if I would "compromise"
with my dh in the homeschooling. When I couldn't answer the question
because of the ambiguities - particularly her desire to "leave the
children out of the issue" and I became annoyed with her insistence she
ends up telling me that it sounds to her that I have made the
homeschooling choice because of my own experiences and that I am afraid
to compromise with my dh because of a control issue relating to the way
my father was! At the end of that session she intended to "consult"
with her colleagues and now I'm wondering what all she wants to consult
on, and I hate the paranoia of wondering if she is checking out whether
and how to interfere with our (boys & I) educational choice!
I'm feeling vulnerable and uncertain. I've checked with the oldest - he
doesn't want to go to school still. The youngest is nearly 5 enjoys
kindergarten and is aware that all the other kids will be going to
school next year. Last year he was happy with doing "little homeschool"
but with the tension surrounding the issue of homeschooling in the
family I'm not sure if he might ask to go to school just because that is
what his dad wants him to do. I've tried structuring activities - it
just doesn't work with these independent boys - they like to choose
their own activities, which unfortunately don't appear educational to my
dh (tv, computer, playing outside, computer, tv, reading only Asterix
books).
Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here
who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.
Mica
ghal9720@...
Stawell, Victoria, Australia
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
I'm glad Stephanie mentioned these experiences - the warnings, her
exasperation, envy of parents who have certainty, almost fear of talking
to friends about the non-controlling philosophy.
I have been going through a lot of that lately. My marriage is in
turmoil - in addition to many other issues that we haven't got around to
discussing my dh will not discuss (or read about) unschooling and
resents both that I have chosen to support the children without
schooling and that I wish to be a non-coercive parent. In our
counselling the counsellor asked what I feared if I would "compromise"
with my dh in the homeschooling. When I couldn't answer the question
because of the ambiguities - particularly her desire to "leave the
children out of the issue" and I became annoyed with her insistence she
ends up telling me that it sounds to her that I have made the
homeschooling choice because of my own experiences and that I am afraid
to compromise with my dh because of a control issue relating to the way
my father was! At the end of that session she intended to "consult"
with her colleagues and now I'm wondering what all she wants to consult
on, and I hate the paranoia of wondering if she is checking out whether
and how to interfere with our (boys & I) educational choice!
I'm feeling vulnerable and uncertain. I've checked with the oldest - he
doesn't want to go to school still. The youngest is nearly 5 enjoys
kindergarten and is aware that all the other kids will be going to
school next year. Last year he was happy with doing "little homeschool"
but with the tension surrounding the issue of homeschooling in the
family I'm not sure if he might ask to go to school just because that is
what his dad wants him to do. I've tried structuring activities - it
just doesn't work with these independent boys - they like to choose
their own activities, which unfortunately don't appear educational to my
dh (tv, computer, playing outside, computer, tv, reading only Asterix
books).
Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here
who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.
Mica
ghal9720@...
Stawell, Victoria, Australia
> snipped<have,
>
> The funny thing is that Jason has never really done well with being
> controlled...I always attributed it to the fact that he could sense
> my uncomfortableness (is that a word??) The more freedom I let him
> the better things go. But then people (including my dh) tell me that Igets
> am letting him off too easy. And give me dire warnings. And then it
> to me and I start cracking down and getting exasperated. I actuallywhite.
> sometimes envied some of my friends for whom parenting is black and
> Kids do as they are told, they are the parents after all. Not that Iwas
> wanted
> to be like them, but rather have the certainty that they had. My heart
> telling me that there was a better way, but everyone said that I wasnuts.
> It is so nice to find people that say that I am not nuts! Now just toover
> convince
> dh....why is it that people think that if you let kids have control
> theirabout
> lives they will screw it up? I am almost afraid to talk with friends
> someYahoo! Groups Sponsor
> of these things...they look at me like I have horns on my head or like
> I am seriously deluding myself.
>
> Stephanie E.
>
>
ADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/1/02 12:19:49 AM, ghal9720@... writes:
<< they like to choose
their own activities, which unfortunately don't appear educational to my
dh (tv, computer, playing outside, computer, tv, reading only Asterix
books). >>
Has he read any Asterix?
It's high quality humor, based on history, great puns, lots to "get."
I wish I had other good suggestions.
For the husband and counselor, I would say something appropriate to the
situation about something your husband understands and does (fixing your car,
or whatever his job is) that you don't tell him how to do because he has
researched it and knows what he's doing. And you have researched methods of
homeschooling and have REALLY paid close attention to your children's fears
and concerns and needs and learning styles, and you don't think that those
who are unwilling to look into to it (including counselors) can really
discuss it with you in an informed fashion.
Sandra
<< they like to choose
their own activities, which unfortunately don't appear educational to my
dh (tv, computer, playing outside, computer, tv, reading only Asterix
books). >>
Has he read any Asterix?
It's high quality humor, based on history, great puns, lots to "get."
I wish I had other good suggestions.
For the husband and counselor, I would say something appropriate to the
situation about something your husband understands and does (fixing your car,
or whatever his job is) that you don't tell him how to do because he has
researched it and knows what he's doing. And you have researched methods of
homeschooling and have REALLY paid close attention to your children's fears
and concerns and needs and learning styles, and you don't think that those
who are unwilling to look into to it (including counselors) can really
discuss it with you in an informed fashion.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/1/02 1:44:20 AM, marji@... writes:
<< Until they have boned up
on exactly what unschooling and non-coercive parenting are, how can they
intelligently discuss these, or their alternatives, with you? >>
AHA! I tried to say that before I read this, but you said it better! <LOL!>
Sandra
<< Until they have boned up
on exactly what unschooling and non-coercive parenting are, how can they
intelligently discuss these, or their alternatives, with you? >>
AHA! I tried to say that before I read this, but you said it better! <LOL!>
Sandra
Kelli Traaseth
Isn't it unfortunate that if a subject isn't on primetime or Oprah/something mainstream; people have such a hard time taking it serious enough to investigate it!
I feel like so many people just discount things they don't understand, instead of trying to understand it. Maybe its all those years in school being told "this is what you need to learn". If its not in those parameters its not 'right'. <BigSigh>
Kelli
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 10/1/02 1:44:20 AM, marji@... writes:
<< Until they have boned up
on exactly what unschooling and non-coercive parenting are, how can they
intelligently discuss these, or their alternatives, with you? >>
AHA! I tried to say that before I read this, but you said it better! <LOL!>
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I feel like so many people just discount things they don't understand, instead of trying to understand it. Maybe its all those years in school being told "this is what you need to learn". If its not in those parameters its not 'right'. <BigSigh>
Kelli
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 10/1/02 1:44:20 AM, marji@... writes:
<< Until they have boned up
on exactly what unschooling and non-coercive parenting are, how can they
intelligently discuss these, or their alternatives, with you? >>
AHA! I tried to say that before I read this, but you said it better! <LOL!>
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/1/02 7:21:38 AM, kellitraas@... writes:
<< Isn't it unfortunate that if a subject isn't on primetime or
Oprah/something mainstream; people have such a hard time taking it serious
enough to investigate it! >>
Well people used to figure "If it's important enough, Phil Donahue will have
it on," and didn't he have John Holt once!? (I'm not sure. <g>)
Sandra
<< Isn't it unfortunate that if a subject isn't on primetime or
Oprah/something mainstream; people have such a hard time taking it serious
enough to investigate it! >>
Well people used to figure "If it's important enough, Phil Donahue will have
it on," and didn't he have John Holt once!? (I'm not sure. <g>)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/30/02 11:26:05 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< ....why is it that people think that if you let kids have control over
their
lives they will screw it up? >>
For the same reason that people on email lists will scream "they'll watch
pornography" if you say you don't control tv, or "they'll eat nothing but
junk food" if you say you let them eat what they choose.
There is very little trust or respect for children in our society. In fact,
children are probably the most horribly mistreated group of citizens out
there...for the most part.
Sad but true. Prejudice abounds where these smaller people are concerned.
Isn't it great to have people that understand and can help us rethink things
when we feel crazy?
Ren, still deprogramming
[email protected] writes:
<< ....why is it that people think that if you let kids have control over
their
lives they will screw it up? >>
For the same reason that people on email lists will scream "they'll watch
pornography" if you say you don't control tv, or "they'll eat nothing but
junk food" if you say you let them eat what they choose.
There is very little trust or respect for children in our society. In fact,
children are probably the most horribly mistreated group of citizens out
there...for the most part.
Sad but true. Prejudice abounds where these smaller people are concerned.
Isn't it great to have people that understand and can help us rethink things
when we feel crazy?
Ren, still deprogramming
Betsy
**In our counselling the counsellor asked what I feared if I would
"compromise" with my dh in the homeschooling. **
Can there even BE a compromise without cutting the boys in half? (The
way King Solomon proposed?)
I don't think sending them to school half day is a workable compromise.
And even homeschooling in alternate years would stink. Maybe
homeschooling them the first half of 12 years of schooling would be
good. You might get what you want for 6 years and then live to fight,
or run away, or re-negotiate at some date in the future. (Actually, how
many years of school do you have in Australia, before university, and
how is it broken up? In my state (CA) it's mostly K-5, 6-8, and 9-12 in
separate schools.)
Is your husband compromising at all or does the therapist expect *you*
to compromise in a one-sided way?
**
Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here
who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.**
That's why we're here! Not just to support health issues for dogs <g>,
but to support you!
Betsy
"compromise" with my dh in the homeschooling. **
Can there even BE a compromise without cutting the boys in half? (The
way King Solomon proposed?)
I don't think sending them to school half day is a workable compromise.
And even homeschooling in alternate years would stink. Maybe
homeschooling them the first half of 12 years of schooling would be
good. You might get what you want for 6 years and then live to fight,
or run away, or re-negotiate at some date in the future. (Actually, how
many years of school do you have in Australia, before university, and
how is it broken up? In my state (CA) it's mostly K-5, 6-8, and 9-12 in
separate schools.)
Is your husband compromising at all or does the therapist expect *you*
to compromise in a one-sided way?
**
Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here
who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.**
That's why we're here! Not just to support health issues for dogs <g>,
but to support you!
Betsy
Mary Bianco
>From: "Stephanie Elms" <stephanie.elms@...><<My heart was
telling me that there was a better way, but everyone said that I was nuts.
It is so nice to find people that say that I am not nuts! Now just to
convince
dh....why is it that people think that if you let kids have control over
their
lives they will screw it up? I am almost afraid to talk with friends about
some>of these things...they look at me like I have horns on my head or like
I am seriously deluding myself.>>
I too know how you feel with this. My in laws were always trying to give me
their doubts and make me feel wrong. I never felt wrong because I was so
convinced I was doing the right thing. My husband and I both. What I did
feel was frustration as they never really wanted to listen or understand the
why's of what we did. I don't see them anymore and we are so much better for
it. They really aren't the kind of people I want around my kids now anyway.
My MIL does stop by once a week to see the kids and it's tolerable. Although
she did just ask me when we start school. I've been trying to explain what
we do for almost 6 years now!!!!! It's not even worth the effort anymore
with them.
As far as your dh goes, keep plugging and maybe just by doing, he'll get it.
I've seen plenty of husbands finally come around when one would think they
never would. People just get afraid of what they don't know and kids I think
for the most part, have that 'should be seen and not heard' label. I think
what we do is not the 'norm' if you will and that's scares people into not
even wanting to understand.
Mary B
_________________________________________________________________
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MO Milligans
At 04:18 PM 10/1/02 +1000, you wrote:
<HUGS> I wish I knew what to say that would be of "help" :( But as long as
you know you have us to talk (write) to, that's something, right?
Todd
"Despite the high cost of living
it's still extremely popular!"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
>Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here==
>who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
>darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
>choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
>children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
>are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.
>
>Mica
<HUGS> I wish I knew what to say that would be of "help" :( But as long as
you know you have us to talk (write) to, that's something, right?
Todd
"Despite the high cost of living
it's still extremely popular!"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
Kelli Traaseth
Todd, this is why you are so great! You write what I think! Thank you for that!
And to the two of you who are struggling, my heart goes to you too!
Kelli
MO Milligans wrote:At 04:18 PM 10/1/02 +1000, you wrote:
<HUGS> I wish I knew what to say that would be of "help" :( But as long as
you know you have us to talk (write) to, that's something, right?
Todd
"Despite the high cost of living
it's still extremely popular!"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And to the two of you who are struggling, my heart goes to you too!
Kelli
MO Milligans wrote:At 04:18 PM 10/1/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Why am I writing? Oh yeah - there is just no-one to talk to around here==
>who can support me. My mother, while she is a supportive, loving
>darling, cannot understand my parenting objectives or educational
>choice. My sister is a catholic school teacher, my brother has no
>children and we are the only unschooling family in the area. My friends
>are the "benevolent" authoritarian kinds of parents.
>
>Mica
<HUGS> I wish I knew what to say that would be of "help" :( But as long as
you know you have us to talk (write) to, that's something, right?
Todd
"Despite the high cost of living
it's still extremely popular!"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]